Author Topic: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV  (Read 12249 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« on: 08 September 2018, 22:27:02 »
Looks like polls are no longer a thing, but I'm curious as to how people rate the original Mad Cat vs the Mk IV.  Both in a fight between the two and in terms of doing a specific job.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #1 on: 09 September 2018, 00:17:27 »
The MK IV tries to do too much with advanced tech that I'd still give the nod to the original.  Ferro Lamellor is awesome, but between it, Endo Steel, the XXL engine, there isn't a whole lot of space that you can use for other things.  The extra heat the XXL engine produces give a couple configurations an odd heat curve that I just don't like.  The idea that it doesn't use a compact gyro to open up some space is also somewhat baffling.

If I'm going to go 1 v 1 though I'd take the Mk IV C.  It's probably the most well rounded of the configurations and as good or better than 90% of the Timber Wolf configurations.


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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #2 on: 09 September 2018, 00:23:12 »
You'd have to specify config, or else the permutations are way too varied to make any kind of reasoned call on this.


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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #3 on: 09 September 2018, 01:10:21 »
The new one is a bit too "flashy new tech" for my tastes,  I prefer the original.

Not that its not a nice machine, just that I'd hate to have to be the logistics chief in charge of supporting that thing after buying one from the Sharks.

And what can I say, I still LOVE me some old fashioned T-Wolf-A, its the kind of mech you can give to a 6 year old to handle its so simplistic in its use.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #4 on: 09 September 2018, 01:15:43 »
You'd have to specify config, or else the permutations are way too varied to make any kind of reasoned call on this.

Either Mad Cat Prime vs the Mk IV C or Mad Cat D vs Mk IV Prime since those are the two "mirror match" configs.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #5 on: 09 September 2018, 01:55:01 »
In that case I'd say the Timber Wolf classic would have the edge, if only because I suspect the slightly more forgiving heat curve combined with the less vulnerable engine would outweigh the advantage of the ferro-lamellor's increased durability more often than not.


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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #6 on: 09 September 2018, 02:28:01 »
I ran this one in MegaMek. Out of 11 battles, the Mad Cat Mk IV came out on top in 10 of them. Disregarding one case that was not useful (the Mk IV headshotted the Mad Cat in the first turn, also known as the Hellstar testing principle) I found that the Ferro-Lamellor armour was a huge advantage. It's not just that the Mk IV has functionally 20% more armour that made the difference; it was the rate of absorption.

SRMs do half damage. ER Medium Lasers do 5 damage. LRM clusters get reamed. 10 point hits won't penetrate the head armour. The Mk IV gets so much more out of it's protection that it easily offsets the added vulnerability from the XXL engine. The armoured gyro is just icing on the cake.

The one time the Mad Cat won came from disproportionate concentration of hits to the same side torso, which was itself the result more of luck then any real weakness.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #7 on: 09 September 2018, 02:32:37 »
Interesting. Good to know I was way off on this, hopefully I'll be better able to gauge the effectiveness of ferro-lam in the future.


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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #8 on: 09 September 2018, 04:32:40 »
Yeah, I have to admit, I had not expected how much of a difference the FL would make overall at first, but then I was genuinely surprised by the results. It's that it's one point per 5 points or fraction thereof that makes all the difference. As said, you halve SRM damage, murder LRM clusters and become immune to LBX and SBG clusters. That's a huge change when you consider how many weapons don't just do their damage in multiples of 5. And, as said, you can't penetrate the head armour with a 10 point weapon (in fact, you need to do 13 points to get through, so sorry Bombast and Binary Lasers) which in my experience makes a world of difference.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #9 on: 09 September 2018, 14:04:44 »
Interesting results from the MM tests DB.

I wonder how something like the A with Twin ERPPCs as primary armament would handle things.

Actually the D also has them but also has loads of SRMs too which get gimped.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #10 on: 09 September 2018, 14:59:21 »
The reason I started this thread was in part because I took a Mad Cat Mk IV C up against a Mad Cat A in a game last week.

While the Mad Cat A had some bad luck that caused it to miss completely for two rounds, it was pretty clear once the two closed that the Savage Wolf had the upper hand at close range with its medium lasers and Artemis V equipped LRMs.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #11 on: 11 September 2018, 14:24:40 »
Just for curiosity, could you run a T-wolf F versus a Mk 4 prime, Deadborder? Be interesting to see what an upscaled oldie does to the new kid.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #12 on: 12 September 2018, 10:38:20 »
I think a lot of us tend to over-estimate the importance of critical hits and structure damage.  Certainly, the Mk IV dies a bit faster than most once its guts are showing.  Thing is... if a mech's internal structure is showing, it's already mostly dead.

A 3050 model T-wolf (or any other optimized mech with full armor) has essentially 2/3 of its health bar in armor and 1/3 of its health bar in internal structure.  Now, sure, there are some nuances on top of that, since each individual location has its own health pool and losing a torso means losing an arm.  However, these are heavy mechs we're talking about, and neither one is packing concentrated enough firepower to outright amputate any locations, so the damage is going to be spread out enough and stochastic enough that we can basically talk about these mechs having unified hit point pools.

A 3145 model T-wolf, shiny and new from your local loanfox dealer, has a hit point pool that's 2/15s larger than the 3050 model (pessimistically assuming that the enemy is shooting at it with weapons that receive minimum damage reduction).  What's more, that hit point pool is larger exclusively as a result of increased armor.  The portion of its hit point pool where it can face-tank shots and not worry about limbs falling off is 20% larger, which is to say that it's equivalent to a 90 tonner.  On top of that, it has equivalent firepower and speed to the 3050 model.

What is pays is that the 3145 model T-wolf cannot tolerate the loss of a side torso, and if the armor gets flayed open and the internal structure gets chewed on for a while, there's a chance that it dies from engine crits.  But here's the thing; by the time that happens, the mk IV has already lost 70% of its hitpoints.  So the mk IV dies a little faster when it's mostly dead already, but it takes 20% more punishment to get to that point.

That's a straight upgrade.  The ferro-lamellar more than cancels out the XXL engine, at least from a survivability standpoint.  The heat problems from mounting jump jets are more of a concern, as is the fact that you need to re-finance your entire planet to afford the silly thing.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #13 on: 12 September 2018, 11:02:45 »
... as is the fact that you need to re-finance your entire planet to afford the silly thing.

And there it is.  Wondered how long it'd be before that came up.

As far as in-game cost:
We don't know what the C-Bill cost of the Mk IV is (canonically), but since it's not introduced until after Grey Monday the in-universe C-Bill cost probably changes at a daily pace due to the plummeting value of the C-Bill.

We DO know that the mk IV costs no more (and no less) than a mk I Mad Cat for in-universe forces to procure (they cost the same number of Support Points).

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #14 on: 12 September 2018, 11:18:57 »
Musing:  What does the discussion above about relative values of Internals and Criticals do to inform us about Reinforced or Composite Internal Structures?

My gut sense is that Reinforced is worthwhile only if your absolute goal is survival and mission package can be sacrificed for that.  OTOH - can composite be justified if the savings allow increased in armor?  Whats the breakpoint there if composite is allowing you to buy ferro-lamellor or hardened?

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #15 on: 12 September 2018, 13:44:21 »
I would only use Composite on a mech that dies if you look at it funny anyway (in other words, a bug mech) or the mech was absolutely never intended to be in a position of enemies shooting back at it (artillery/XLRM mech).
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #16 on: 12 September 2018, 19:17:06 »
One other thing to consider is the effect Ferro Lamellor has on some of the biggest bogeymen of sudden 'Mech kills; headshots, pilot hits and TACs.

The headshot is worth considering. A 'Mech's head can have a maximum of 9 armour. When you look at the amount of weapons that can do 10 damage, you can see an easy route to easily crippling or killing a 'Mech in one shot. A 'Mech with FL armour can't have its head armour penetrated in a single shot from a 10 point weapon; in fact, it takes 13 points to do such. Of course, since there are no 13 point weapons, this means that the only way to do such is through completely destroying the head with a 15 point hit. On top of that, it also means that you can't get through the head armour with two 5 point hits, which are also pretty common.

Number two is the stray LBX or SBG pellet (or single LRM). Not just is FL armour immune to it, but there are other benefits as well. A single point hit can't inflict a TAC on a location with FL armour, nor will it do pilot damage.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #17 on: 12 September 2018, 21:28:28 »
And there it is.  Wondered how long it'd be before that came up.

As far as in-game cost:
We don't know what the C-Bill cost of the Mk IV is (canonically), but since it's not introduced until after Grey Monday the in-universe C-Bill cost probably changes at a daily pace due to the plummeting value of the C-Bill.

We DO know that the mk IV costs no more (and no less) than a mk I Mad Cat for in-universe forces to procure (they cost the same number of Support Points).

I always figured that the cost figures given for XXL engines were when they were brand new technology only found in the secretest, squirrelest laboratories with the best funding.  Since they became mass production items they have become... well, certainly not cheap, but much more reasonable.

Musing:  What does the discussion above about relative values of Internals and Criticals do to inform us about Reinforced or Composite Internal Structures?

My gut sense is that Reinforced is worthwhile only if your absolute goal is survival and mission package can be sacrificed for that.  OTOH - can composite be justified if the savings allow increased in armor?  Whats the breakpoint there if composite is allowing you to buy ferro-lamellor or hardened?

That's an interesting musing.

Composite structure frees up 5% of a mech's total weight and throws away 17% of its total hitpoints.  Reinforced loses 10% of a mech's total weight and gains an additional 33% hitpoints.

So reinforced is essentially a hobo version of hardened armor.  It gives about the same additional hitpoints per ton, but it doesn't give quite the same protection against TACs, but it doesn't add the same mobility penalties.

Composite structure plus ferro lamellor is an interesting proposition.  You would net lose hitpoints against large weapons, but it would be a loss of 17% of your structure hitpoints versus a gain of 13% armor hitpoints, and armor hitpoints are more desirable anyway.  On top of that, you'd be gaining all the small benefits that Deadborder mentioned.  Headshot threshold would remain the same; two 5 pointers still don't make it through the head armor, binary lasers clean off all the armor but do nothing more, and I guess you'd get killed by 14 point weapons to the head if any of those existed.  You would also net save tonnage vs using standard armor and internals, but only a small amount.

Endo-composite plus max ferro lamellor is weight neutral, or very close to it.


Edit:  Reinforced plus ferro lamellor means that 15 point headshots don't automatically kill.  That's significant.
« Last Edit: 12 September 2018, 21:58:51 by Demiurge »

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #18 on: 12 September 2018, 21:30:05 »
I always figured that the cost figures given for XXL engines were when they were brand new technology only found in the secretest, squirrelest laboratories with the best funding.  Since they became mass production items they have become... well, certainly not cheap, but much more reasonable.

Me too, but having had this very argument at least 3 times already I've learned that there are plenty of those who think the prices are accurate for the entire hundreds-of-years-span of in-game history, and they really don't wanna be convinced otherwise.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #19 on: 22 September 2018, 15:57:15 »
Regardless, I don't think XXL engines are the way forward in most cases.  The heat penalty with jump jets is terrible, and IJJs and partial wings are a more attractive way to improve mobility in the Dark Age era, IMO.

How dumb are IJJs?  They're so dumb that the main variant of the gyrfalcon is one of the most optimized designs and intensely frustrating mechs to fight anywhere that isn't an enclosed, underground pit, and it's shackled with the deadweight of two UAC/2s!

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #20 on: 22 September 2018, 16:42:28 »
The Gryfalcon doesn't mount IJJs. :)

Its jumping range is 100% from standard JJs and the Partial Wing*.

*in standard atmosphere.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #21 on: 23 September 2018, 00:56:40 »
Neither the Mad Cat nor the Mad Cat Mk IV mount IJJs, so IJJs aren't relevant in a discussion about the two mechs.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #22 on: 23 September 2018, 19:30:47 »
The Gryfalcon doesn't mount IJJs. :)

Its jumping range is 100% from standard JJs and the Partial Wing*.

*in standard atmosphere.

My bad, got my wires crossed.

Jump MP is so valuable that even having less than the full value of walk MP as jump MP is a net gain; see the Timberwolf Pryde variant.  But having your jump MP equal or close to your run MP?  The mech's legs would shrivel into vestigial landing gears.

I think more generally, if we're talking Dark Age, 5/8 should not be considered fast for a heavy mech anymore.  5/8 was very fast for a heavy mech in 3025, and all the top-of-the-line "cavalry" designs did 5/8 all the way up through the Jihad era.  That was then, this is now.  By Dark Age, the MadCat original flavor and MadCat Refreshing Mint Blast should both be considered old-fashioned designs, optimized for an era when clan machines could have the firepower of a mech one weight class higher and the speed of a mech one weight class lower when compared to their spheroid counterparts.

Basically, if you're comparing the Mk IV to the original, it's a referendum on whether FL armor and an XXL is a better combination than FF armor and an XL.  Math says it is most of the time.  But neither design remains representative of what an optimal 75 ton mech looks like.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #23 on: 23 September 2018, 20:25:36 »
Basically, if you're comparing the Mk IV to the original, it's a referendum on whether FL armor and an XXL is a better combination than FF armor and an XL.  Math says it is most of the time.  But neither design remains representative of what an optimal 75 ton mech looks like.

Ok, I have to ask, if these are not optimal 75 tonners to you, what is?

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #24 on: 23 September 2018, 20:44:04 »
The Mad Cat 4 is an evolution the original king of the Clan invasion can't take but they are also built for different battlefields most of the 3050 designs were struggling to keep up in the Jihad let alone DA.

Me personally the Timber Wolf wins on flexibility of being an Omni but in a straight up fight take two to make sure you kill the MC4
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #25 on: 23 September 2018, 21:21:36 »
The Mad Cat Mk IV is also an omni.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #26 on: 23 September 2018, 21:23:45 »
I think more generally, if we're talking Dark Age, 5/8 should not be considered fast for a heavy mech anymore.  5/8 was very fast for a heavy mech in 3025, and all the top-of-the-line "cavalry" designs did 5/8 all the way up through the Jihad era.  That was then, this is now.  By Dark Age, the MadCat original flavor and MadCat Refreshing Mint Blast should both be considered old-fashioned designs, optimized for an era when clan machines could have the firepower of a mech one weight class higher and the speed of a mech one weight class lower when compared to their spheroid counterparts.

Basically, if you're comparing the Mk IV to the original, it's a referendum on whether FL armor and an XXL is a better combination than FF armor and an XL.  Math says it is most of the time.  But neither design remains representative of what an optimal 75 ton mech looks like.

It's not physically possible to build a 75 ton mech that moves faster than 5/8.  MASC, Superchargers, and TSM can give the ability to temporarily move faster than that, but that's the upper limit of what you can get from engine power.
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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #27 on: 23 September 2018, 22:26:07 »
It's not physically possible to build a 75 ton mech that moves faster than 5/8.  MASC, Superchargers, and TSM can give the ability to temporarily move faster than that, but that's the upper limit of what you can get from engine power.

The weight exists where you could look at putting a large XXL engine into a 75 ton machine with max or respectable armor and go 6/9.  Damage output would obviously suffer to some degree, but you can do it.  With he larger engine weight MASC is a better weight option than a SC if you want to make it go faster.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #28 on: 23 September 2018, 22:34:43 »
The weight exists where you could look at putting a large XXL engine into a 75 ton machine with max or respectable armor and go 6/9.  Damage output would obviously suffer to some degree, but you can do it.  With he larger engine weight MASC is a better weight option than a SC if you want to make it go faster.
I'll be honest, I was doubting it was possible until I checked myself. With an XXL 6/9 Clan unit with Endo Steel, you have 18.5 tons to spend on armor and equipment.

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Re: Fight Night: Mad Cat vs Mad Cat Mk IV
« Reply #29 on: 23 September 2018, 22:36:39 »
So in other words, you can get the movement and armor of a Puma, but with about half the firepower.
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