'Shattered Fortress' release this summer - the timeline advances!

[Phaedros]

and others could get wiped suddenly (WiE). I wouldn't be too quick to cut to the bone

They presumably died (along with the 2.0 versions of the Kell Hounds and I think the Wolf's Dragoons) in 3150 when the Turkeys took Arc-Royal like a semi through your LGS's back door.

[SCC]

They presumably died (along with the 2.0 versions of the Kell Hounds and I think the Wolf's Dragoons) in 3150 when the Turkeys took Arc-Royal like a semi through your LGS's back door.

Well I'd say their support structure would have been wiped out, but I'm not sure if the the actual Dragoons would have been on-world at the time.

[Jaim Magnus]

I personally like the clans more than the houses. I say have the clans wipe out the innersphere and go from there.

Seyla!

[Sartris]

Or at the very least wiping out the redundant obsolete IS tech and shrinking the equipment list by dozens of entries

[Foxx Ital]

With the clans you don't have to worry about coming up with a reason to have the factions fight.
 For your faction, the day the clans graced your world was the most important day of your life. But for the clans, it was Tuesday.

[sadlerbw]

For your faction, the day the clans graced your world was the most important day of your life. But for the clans, it was Tuesday.

Terrible movie, but I LOVE that quote.

Anywho, I'm not on board with all clan, all the time. However, having enough clans that there are always trials going on, even with the non-clan factions, seems like a useful thing to have in terms of creating little brush wars or small-scale fights.

I'm also on-board with pruning the tech list a bit in 3150+, but I don't think that is something that is within the scope of what the ilClan books are supposed to do. It would be refreshing for them to have a tech section that didn't just add new stuff, but declared some tech obsolete as well. Of course, with all the industrial Mods and stuff like that which the Dark Age gave us, they may actually WANT to keep the low-tech around to use on crappy para-military units. Who knows.

[Scotty]

The Dragoons' dependents and support left with them to the Combine.

I remember having a brief panic attack over that when TRO3150 came out, because the last time someone threatened Dragoon dependents didn't go so hot and I doubt the Falcons would do much better.

[ActionButler]

Or at the very least wiping out the redundant obsolete IS tech and shrinking the equipment list by dozens of entries

Yes please

[SCC]

Or at the very least wiping out the redundant obsolete IS tech and shrinking the equipment list by dozens of entries

That's not going to do much for the dreaded rule bloat that lots of people complain about.

[Daemion]

Sun Tzu's dad was Hanse....

That would explain all the crafty Machinations and the sudden Power De Fiat he gained during his reign! It makes sense.

[Sartris]

That's not going to do much for the dreaded rule bloat that lots of people complain about.

The core of the DREADED RULE BLOAT complaint is that there is too much gear.

[Daemion]

Why do you think Brent is taking so long to rewrite IlClan? Every time he tries to kill off Alaric, the text rewrites itself.

You mean, he's a singularity much like Achilles? If he doesn't die by taking a poison arrow to his heel at the right time, he's pretty much immortal after that?



As to too many factions, people seem to be forgetting what trend really took of with BT - Mercenaries. I'm one of those players that looked at the major factions, and decided I didn't want to play as a line-man for any particular one, and decided going merc would let me fight for and against any and every one of them at my leisure.

This is why having about ten to a baker's dozen might actually be okay. The problem with the 20 Clans was that they had nothing to do with mercs except as potential OpFor and sources of ultimate kit upgrades on your IS tech. So, from that aspect, you only needed a small handful of flavors.

But, having only five or six good sources of employment? I liked when Comstar and WoB opened up many opportunities, especially with the Chaos March. I also liked the handful of periphery states and the constant pirate wars and hunts on the borders. Lots to do and see for the Mercenary Trade.

Heck, if the PsTB decide that the mercenary trade is going to see a sudden collapse with forces being folded into state militaries because of legal and collateral liabilities changing the general population's attitude, I'd be fine with that, too, because there's still going pirate.  Now, there's an aspect of the universe not very well covered.

[Daemion]

I'm rather a fan of having lots of factions, and micro-factions, 90% of which are left as background, and not placed in the spotlight.

It adds verisimilitude to the world (a Universe this big should have rich, and complex politics), but allows the story to focus on the 3-6 factions that are actually relevant at any given time.)

If we do go that way, then the limelight stars need to rotate and fluctuate a bit, too. Kinda like what's happened up to 3145/50. For the longest time, the FedSuns and LyrAl/Com were the big stars opposed by the Golden Throned Dragon. All of a sudden, you see them in a twilight scenario where the Dragon is eating the sun, and a giant green albatross is casting shadow while the wolf plucks at the harp strings with its claws.


Historically, there was a time when the sun never sat on the British Empire, and then there were times when it did. The core of that empire hasn't gone away. Fancifully, there's always a chance it'll grow again, or not.

I have no problem with BT doing musical chairs with its factions like that.

 

[Kitsune413]

Wait, does being ilClan mean that the other Clans just roll over and submit to your authority or can they contest such a thing? Are you ilClan once, forever and always or is it something that can be gained or lost?

Asking for a friend...

Do you remember during the invasion when Ilkhan Smoke Jaguar dude ordered other clans around and they sort of listened but mostly didn't? And then Ulric became Ilkhan and nobody listened to him and he had to trick people into doing stuff?

It's like that... but when the Ilkhan dies he is elected again from the same place. So no Smoke Jaguar to Clan Wolf to who knows because we stopped actually paying attention after Ulric...

[Robroy]

Or at the very least wiping out the redundant obsolete IS tech and shrinking the equipment list by dozens of entries

Problem with that is what is obsolete in Dark Age is cutting edge in the Succession Wars, and much still useful in Clan Invasion.

In would prefer the list be broken up by era. That way it would easier to see what is available for the time you are playing in.

[Daemion]

Y'know, it would be funny to see the standard large and medium laser reach the 'experimental'/rare designation in future eras.

[Sartris]

Problem with that is what is obsolete in Dark Age is cutting edge in the Succession Wars, and much still useful in Clan Invasion.

In would prefer the list be broken up by era. That way it would easier to see what is available for the time you are playing in.

the clans would have TARDIS technology from a Dr Who AFD crossover and retroactively delete redundant still-worse-than-clantech before it’s even invented try to keep up

Yes, more coherent era organization would be nice. I have definitely advocated for it in he past. I think the real rulebloat issue is the barrier broken between the core and advanced tech rulebook. TO used to be, like maxtech, the optional book, but has become required to play past the end of the jihad. Having, what, four flavors of medium pulse laser (is, xpulse, clan, er pulse) plus the medium VSP puts an unfair burden on players, especially new ones who have not had two decades to acclimate and process the additions.

[ColBosch]

That's a solid point. There are just too many weapons. If we expand out that list of medium pulse lasers to include ALL medium lasers, we have over a dozen: medium laser, ER medium laser (IS), ER medium laser (Clan), medium chemical laser, heavy medium laser, improved heavy medium laser, medium pulse laser (IS), medium pulse laser (Clan), ER medium pulse laser, medium X-pulse laser, medium variable-speed pulse laser, plus guidelines for the prototype medium laser (using the rules for "early introduction") and an improved medium laser (using the rules for Clan transitional weapons). Oh yeah, and medium lasers use different rules depending on what they're mounted on...it's too much.

[Spenetrator]

What!!? Why are we trying to chop out So many factions!
Battletech has always had a lot of options, And taking choice away from the gamer in a world where the fluff is so granular feels like a mistake...

Getting rid of the periphery realms would be getting rid of some of the more interesting parts too...

(Though I understand thinning out some of the smaller breakaways, (Fronc, Filtvelt) who serve little dramatic purpose other hand to highlight general disapproval with the big 5.)

[Dubble_g]

Re: the number of factions, I guess the upper limit depends on what you see their role in the tabletop game as being.

If they are there as flavor/window dressing just to provide context to all the robot-stomping going on (e.g. if, as mentioned in the thread, you want to play mercenaries who fight for anyone), then I think you'd be guided by having a clear flavor for each. If faction B is just faction A with a slightly different paint job, then it probably isn't adding anything to your setting. In addition, particularly for a game like BTech that wants to expand its player base, the upper limit should perhaps be set by how easy it is for a beginner to understand--e.g. if you can't describe it in 2/3 keywords, it's probably too complicated.

If on the other hand factions are intended to have an impact on gameplay, so that the game itself plays differently depending on which faction you choose, then the range of distinctive play styles should perhaps limit the number. e.g. Faction A is good at melee, Faction B has a small number of powerful units, Faction C has a swarm of lighter ones, D is good at sneaking/hiding and ambushing, etc. If there's no clear differentiation in the way its units function in combat, cut the faction.   

[Frabby]

BattleTech used to have factions as window dressing only, to serve as a background framing device to give 'Mechs a reason to duke it out. All factions played by the same rules.
This was later watered down somewhat with ever increasing amounts of faction-specific tech, but at least the concept of salvage pretty much guarantees that while faction flavor now exists, everyone can still field anything.

Zellbrigen could be regarded as a failed attempt to enforce a faction-specific playstyle.

Anywasy, following the points you made I conclude that the game doesn't need many factions in the former case ("window dressing"), and shouldn't have too many in the latter case ("faction playstyle") because imho balancing faction abilities is a nightmare to begin with and moves another step towards unbalanced, i. e. a bad game, with each addition.

[marauder648]

I just hope the book is out soon. Sooooo waiting for it :D

[Dubble_g]

BattleTech used to have factions as window dressing only, to serve as a background framing device to give 'Mechs a reason to duke it out. All factions played by the same rules.
This was later watered down somewhat with ever increasing amounts of faction-specific tech, but at least the concept of salvage pretty much guarantees that while faction flavor now exists, everyone can still field anything.

Right, it does kind of fall between two stools at the moment.

That's kind of what I'm getting at: you can say something like "five factions is enough" or "twelve factions is too many" -- but enough for what? Too many for what? The purpose of having factions in the game is not "to have factions in the game." Unless we're clear on why they are in the game at all, I'm not sure how you can say how many is "enough" or "too many."

Like you say, at its current level of detail and complexity, I think it would be hard to balance playstyles, so I think having flavor factions would be a more practical/achievable goal for the game designers. In which case, the point should be how distinctive or easy to differentiate those factions are.

[Kidd]

IMHO the factions seem to serve nothing more than the fiction.

[Vition2]

IMHO the factions seem to serve nothing more than the fiction.

This, and pretty much only this.  There have never been any hard rules on what a player can use in whatever force they decide to play.  As far as the rules are concerned, any limitations placed are entirely done by the player or GM.  The closest attempt at this has been the Combat Manuals, the series of which may or may not ever be completed.

Personally, I'd love to see some kind of limitations no what certain factions have access to, but I understand that a good portion of the player base doesn't see things similarly.  But without some limitations, I don't see any real need to limit factions.

[Foxx Ital]

Getting rid of factions for number sake is like looking at your spice rack and deciding theres too many spices to choose from. If its done for story purpose im down, but i like options and the writers have proven they can handle all of them with skill.
 In the end battletech has some good eras to pick from so i won't have to worry about my bears going the dodo, cause theres always the golden century to play in! Hello lupis here i come!

[ActionButler]

Getting rid of factions for number sake is like looking at your spice rack and deciding theres too many spices to choose from. If its done for story purpose im down, but i like options and the writers have proven they can handle all of them with skill.

I don't think that is an accurate comparison. 

The spices in your spice rack each serve a unique function.  Each has distinct flavor,  literally in this case.

Battletech factions have no impact on gameplay.  As long as anyone can build a force out of any units they want, no matter how rare or exclusive certain mechs are described to be, because salvage, Battletech factions only ever determine what color paint you need to buy.  Every realm is fighting for exactly the same goal, they use exactly the same equipment, and they stick at equipment onto exactly the same kinds of vehicles. 

Would I be really upset if the Ghost Bears ceased to be?  Yes.  That was one of the reasons I never took Clickytech seriously.

Would I swear off Battletech forever and ever, though?  No.  Heck, I was a Steel Viper before I was a Ghost Bear and, while I miss my beloved snakey bretheren, I didn't stop playing after I discovered their... unfortunate fate.   

If Battletech is going to continue with its 'everyone can field everything because salvage' tradition, we don't really need any factions for anything other than building the setting, which means we could, in all actuality, cut the factions down to The Third Star League and Not The Third Star League and still not miss a beat.

[I am Belch II]

All the Level 1 old Intro weapons should be very rare to come by now.

[Sartris]

All the Level 1 old Intro weapons should be very rare to come by now.

With few exceptions (vanilla mlaser, mg) they mostly are. Many introtech weapons haven’t been seen on a new design since before 3100. The ones that have are few and far between.

[Kitsune413]

I actually enjoy that the Dark Age period gives each faction a really specific unit list and flavor. I think its one of the things I like the most about the current setting. If you see a Black Knight in a faction that isn't House Davion you're like, "Hey that's a House Davion mech!"