Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 161780 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #900 on: 17 February 2018, 18:32:15 »
Well, TPTB did do that with Battletech and obviously the setting is better for it because it allowed us to move past the Unseen images.

And the appearances of multiple characters have changed substantially over the years without significant negative impact.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #901 on: 17 February 2018, 19:04:53 »
Well, TPTB did do that with Battletech and obviously the setting is better for it because it allowed us to move past the Unseen images.

And the appearances of multiple characters have changed substantially over the years without significant negative impact.

Exactly. I'd rate the level of internal consistency in BattleTech as actually being about on-par with Star Trek. While the broad strokes are consistent, tons of details vary considerably over the past few decades. Both universes are simply too vast for any one author to memorize every detail, especially as those details change from source to source. A good example is my list of the signatories to the Ares Accords. According to the sources I used, it's accurate. According to others - even from the same authors - it's incorrect. And that's on top of my having to retcon that previous sources had mentioned signatories to the Accords that didn't exist yet!

Ever notice there is no official ruling on why the TR2750 and 3057 ships look so different? Is Maximilian Liao a brilliant schemer or a bumbling madman? What does Melissa Davion look like? Does the Ostscout have hands or not? Do Clan MechWarriors dress like Europeans at the beach, like Lord Humungous's berserkers, or like furry superheroes?

These are all things that change depending on the author, the artist, the story, or the medium. There's probably a thousand more. I'd rather get new stories - please, can we get some new stories? - rather than have everyone at CGL wasting their time tracking them down every inconsistency and trying to make a fictional universe completely consistent.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #902 on: 17 February 2018, 19:05:25 »
If the Battletech developers took the same position for the Battletech universe, do you think the setting & storyline would be better or worse?

Damon.

Like when they changed the Inner Sphere map?  Or decided that the Inner Sphere powers never lost the ability to build BattleMechs or Jumpships? Or that the number of JumpShips and DropShips in the Inner Sphere was much larger than stated in the sourcebook of the same name? Or that the Inner Sphere didn't lose access to all Star League tech until well into the Third Succession War?
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #903 on: 17 February 2018, 20:04:49 »
Well I am certainly the wrong person to ask such a question to.

I probably could have dealt with everything if they didn't insist on calling it a prequel series.  Yeah there were some changes that they made that made me feel they were being deliberately disrespectful and not just to the fans but even that I could have gotten over if they didn't call it a prequel series.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #904 on: 18 February 2018, 00:29:23 »
Like when they changed the Inner Sphere map?  Or decided that the Inner Sphere powers never lost the ability to build BattleMechs or Jumpships? Or that the number of JumpShips and DropShips in the Inner Sphere was much larger than stated in the sourcebook of the same name? Or that the Inner Sphere didn't lose access to all Star League tech until well into the Third Succession War?

A lot of these retcons were done however to make a more consistent & plausible setting.

One of the advantages of following a specific franchise is that you come to expect a certain consistency in the story, such that it grows (both from a story standpoint and -- very important for me --  a world-building standpoint). If there were no consistency between segments of the story, you can lose immersion as well as the expansion of the story and setting. I know some people say that "looks" are unimportant to story. I personally think a consistent look IS important because I am a very visual person; the change in appearance for the Klingons FREX (something that one would NOT expect a change in) was a bridge too far and totally removed me from any sort of immersion with the new show. YMMV and I know not everyone is like this, but for ME it is a big deal & does not add consistency to the universe or story from what came before and what came after (TOS excepted). WHile it is true that Trek has never been perfect about it, Disc didn't even try, which has significantly decreased my enjoyment of what they tried to do.

Also for some people that attention to detail -- while still providing engaging stories -- is a mark of quality writing, not a straight-jacket.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #905 on: 18 February 2018, 01:59:11 »
A lot of these retcons were done however to make a more consistent & plausible setting.

One of the advantages of following a specific franchise is that you come to expect a certain consistency in the story, such that it grows (both from a story standpoint and -- very important for me --  a world-building standpoint). If there were no consistency between segments of the story, you can lose immersion as well as the expansion of the story and setting. I know some people say that "looks" are unimportant to story. I personally think a consistent look IS important because I am a very visual person; the change in appearance for the Klingons FREX (something that one would NOT expect a change in) was a bridge too far and totally removed me from any sort of immersion with the new show. YMMV and I know not everyone is like this, but for ME it is a big deal & does not add consistency to the universe or story from what came before and what came after (TOS excepted). WHile it is true that Trek has never been perfect about it, Disc didn't even try, which has significantly decreased my enjoyment of what they tried to do.

Also for some people that attention to detail -- while still providing engaging stories -- is a mark of quality writing, not a straight-jacket.

Damon.

The thing is, you could argue that the change to Trek in DISCO, which, let's be clear here are just cosmetic, is to make a more plausible setting by updating the look and feel of Trek to be more acceptable to modern audiences.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #906 on: 18 February 2018, 03:55:40 »
The thing is, you could argue that the change to Trek in DISCO, which, let's be clear here are just cosmetic, is to make a more plausible setting by updating the look and feel of Trek to be more acceptable to modern audiences.
Well they seem to have failed there....  ;)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #907 on: 18 February 2018, 04:57:01 »
Well they seem to have failed there....  ;)

The show appears to have been a success, though. Trekkies complaining really means nothing, especially as Enterprise and Nemesis failed partially because they pandered to Trekkies
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #908 on: 18 February 2018, 05:03:24 »
The thing is, you could argue that the change to Trek in DISCO, which, let's be clear here are just cosmetic, is to make a more plausible setting by updating the look and feel of Trek to be more acceptable to modern audiences.

All the other cosmetic changes, excepting perhaps the initial change in appearance of the klingons in STTMP, only built upon the already established foundations. It didn't basically take that foundation and flush 50 years of historical images all down the toilet....

Note: I'm talking solely the klingons and their ships here...

Edit: Note, I'm not sure I would have minded the changes to the Klingons so much if they still had the TNG/DS9/Voy/early Enterprise versions, along with, perhaps, some of the old TOS style thrown into the mix (for the Augment virus thing from Enterprise/TOS carry-over), and thus maintained that history...the ships were the other thing that got to...the revised TOS USS Enterprise shows that you can update a design, and not completely demolish what has come before...

As to Dragon Cat's comment below:

Black sheep here I enjoyed enterprise

So did I...

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #909 on: 18 February 2018, 05:28:51 »
The show appears to have been a success, though. Trekkies complaining really means nothing, especially as Enterprise and Nemesis failed partially because they pandered to Trekkies
I disagree on both matters. It takes more then initial financial success to note it is successful to me (netflix pre-order). Such as, how long does it last or how strong is its positive cultural impact?
It is also a complete mystery to me how one can say that Enterprise and Nemesis pandered to fans, the fans didn't request nor liked them. So to whoever they were 'pandering' to, it wasn't towards the fans.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #910 on: 18 February 2018, 06:49:02 »
Black sheep here I enjoyed enterprise
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #911 on: 18 February 2018, 09:59:07 »
I disagree on both matters. It takes more then initial financial success to note it is successful to me (netflix pre-order). Such as, how long does it last or how strong is its positive cultural impact?
It is also a complete mystery to me how one can say that Enterprise and Nemesis pandered to fans, the fans didn't request nor liked them. So to whoever they were 'pandering' to, it wasn't towards the fans.

If you watch the making of Nemesis on DVD, the director really strongly indicated he was out to make a certain style of film - action - with only a Trek vinear. He didn't seem to pander to anyone, especially the fans.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #912 on: 18 February 2018, 10:16:26 »
All the other cosmetic changes, excepting perhaps the initial change in appearance of the klingons in STTMP, only built upon the already established foundations. It didn't basically take that foundation and flush 50 years of historical images all down the toilet....

Note: I'm talking solely the klingons and their ships here...

Edit: Note, I'm not sure I would have minded the changes to the Klingons so much if they still had the TNG/DS9/Voy/early Enterprise versions, along with, perhaps, some of the old TOS style thrown into the mix (for the Augment virus thing from Enterprise/TOS carry-over), and thus maintained that history...the ships were the other thing that got to...the revised TOS USS Enterprise shows that you can update a design, and not completely demolish what has come before...

As to Dragon Cat's comment below:

So did I...

Ruger

They didn't flush 50 years of images down the toilet, there's a clear line between the DISCO Klingons and prior versions.

I disagree on both matters. It takes more then initial financial success to note it is successful to me (netflix pre-order). Such as, how long does it last or how strong is its positive cultural impact?

It's successful for now.  Obviously it'll be years before we see how much of a long-term success the show is

Quote
It is also a complete mystery to me how one can say that Enterprise and Nemesis pandered to fans, the fans didn't request nor liked them. So to whoever they were 'pandering' to, it wasn't towards the fans.

The first three years of Enterprise were more of the same from the prior 14 years of Trek, but with all the risk-taking removed (partially because most of the best writers had left), and when that failed, they went in for full-on fanservice and continuity porn.

Nemesis was written by a major Trekkie who wanted to do Wrath of Khan with the TNG cast.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #913 on: 18 February 2018, 13:03:55 »
Well, hell, that explains the nebula scene.....
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #914 on: 18 February 2018, 13:35:44 »
It's successful for now.  Obviously it'll be years before we see how much of a long-term success the show is
My guess is 2 to 3 seasons, then being cancelled and thrown into the Nemesis pile of history.

Quote
The first three years of Enterprise were more of the same from the prior 14 years of Trek, but with all the risk-taking removed (partially because most of the best writers had left), and when that failed, they went in for full-on fanservice and continuity porn.
The decision to cancel the show was made even before the 4th season was fully written, thus the failure is from the first 3 seasons. 

Quote
Nemesis was written by a major Trekkie who wanted to do Wrath of Khan with the TNG cast.
That sounds it was just straight up incompetence. And the buggy scene does give weight to Daemion's post of it being a wannabe action movie, also a good sign of straight up incompetence.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #915 on: 18 February 2018, 14:19:00 »
My guess is 2 to 3 seasons, then being cancelled and thrown into the Nemesis pile of history.

I'm pretty certain you'll be proven wrong on this point. The show is great and don't need 2 decades of Star Trek enclypedias to be enjoyed. I've got several non-Trek interested friends who enjoy the show.


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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #916 on: 18 February 2018, 14:52:37 »
I'm pretty certain you'll be proven wrong on this point. The show is great and don't need 2 decades of Star Trek enclypedias to be enjoyed. I've got several non-Trek interested friends who enjoy the show.
the thing is the complaint some fans have is that they changed a bunch of stuff just for the sake of changing things, and then tried to claim this is the same prime timeline just a few years before the start of the classic star trek.

If they had gone a little bit different route they could have essentially gotten their cake and eaten it too so to speak.

one suggestion was that they could have introduced their new Klingons without totally discarding the "old Klingons"  I have an idea on how they could have done it that makes sense and ties into the old history.

essentially you have groups and "types" of Klingons kind of like the enterprise Zindi.
you have "pure Klingons", Various race Hybrid Klingons, "Augment Klingons" etc.  the advantage of going that method, is that while it gives you a lot more options, it doesn't throw out any of the old canon it actually enhances and embraces it.
the Ships, aspect also could easily work around this Idea by NOT calling that ship a D7 or whatever it was, you have the various ships, but then you say ok this is a "house" fleet and they have design ethic whatever, and then there is the "imperial fleet," which uses the designs we are familiar with, IE there are some ships that are built by and or to specs specified by the overall Klingon government, a frontier fleet, various defense fleets, and also the individual House fleets many of which are just flat out different from each other.

plus they could still "revise" the imperial designs much like they did with the enterprise, IE brought up to modern high res images cgi, levels of detail, but you can still see the classic designs in there. even if its the overall outline, but lots of the small and fine detail is different.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #917 on: 18 February 2018, 15:07:03 »
That sounds it was just straight up incompetence. And the buggy scene does give weight to Daemion's post of it being a wannabe action movie, also a good sign of straight up incompetence.

IIRC, the buggy scene was added at Patrick Stewart's insistence, he was a bit of a petrolhead and wanted to have a fun chase scene in the movie.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #918 on: 18 February 2018, 15:22:29 »
I'm pretty certain you'll be proven wrong on this point. The show is great and don't need 2 decades of Star Trek enclypedias to be enjoyed. I've got several non-Trek interested friends who enjoy the show.
The audiences never needed encyclopedias, just the writers so they know there to add stuff ;).
As for getting others to enjoy the show, I see it too. The different tone, the visuals and hype has expanded the viewer base.
But the visuals and hype can't be relied upon long term, and there is still the problem of the fanfiction level writing.
Eventually the extra watchers will drop out for newer/better shows.


IIRC, the buggy scene was added at Patrick Stewart's insistence, he was a bit of a petrolhead and wanted to have a fun chase scene in the movie.
Well not recognizing a bad idea can fall under incompetence.
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Ruger

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #919 on: 18 February 2018, 15:43:43 »
the thing is the complaint some fans have is that they changed a bunch of stuff just for the sake of changing things, and then tried to claim this is the same prime timeline just a few years before the start of the classic star trek.

If they had gone a little bit different route they could have essentially gotten their cake and eaten it too so to speak.

one suggestion was that they could have introduced their new Klingons without totally discarding the "old Klingons"  I have an idea on how they could have done it that makes sense and ties into the old history.

essentially you have groups and "types" of Klingons kind of like the enterprise Zindi.
you have "pure Klingons", Various race Hybrid Klingons, "Augment Klingons" etc.  the advantage of going that method, is that while it gives you a lot more options, it doesn't throw out any of the old canon it actually enhances and embraces it.
the Ships, aspect also could easily work around this Idea by NOT calling that ship a D7 or whatever it was, you have the various ships, but then you say ok this is a "house" fleet and they have design ethic whatever, and then there is the "imperial fleet," which uses the designs we are familiar with, IE there are some ships that are built by and or to specs specified by the overall Klingon government, a frontier fleet, various defense fleets, and also the individual House fleets many of which are just flat out different from each other.

plus they could still "revise" the imperial designs much like they did with the enterprise, IE brought up to modern high res images cgi, levels of detail, but you can still see the classic designs in there. even if its the overall outline, but lots of the small and fine detail is different.

THIS...so much, this...  O0

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #920 on: 18 February 2018, 17:31:20 »
THIS...so much, this...  O0

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #921 on: 18 February 2018, 22:43:15 »
All the other cosmetic changes, excepting perhaps the initial change in appearance of the klingons in STTMP, only built upon the already established foundations. It didn't basically take that foundation and flush 50 years of historical images all down the toilet....

Note: I'm talking solely the klingons and their ships here...

The Wikipedia page for Discovery season 1 has some additional detail on why they did the Klingons the way they did.  YES, it was a conscious choice, and YES, it was motivated by Bryan Fuller from the get-go (look in the notes for Production):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Discovery_(season_1)
While I can understand their reasons for wanting to go that way, it doesn't change the fact that the final result clashes massively with everything that came before it.

And Mary Chieffo's comments about how they delivered their lines in Klingon just ring hollow. Sorry Mary, but that's not how it comes off to most of us actually watching the show--it sounds like you read the lines phonetically off cue cards, with no idea of what the words are supposed to mean.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #922 on: 19 February 2018, 02:30:08 »
I'm pretty certain you'll be proven wrong on this point. The show is great and don't need 2 decades of Star Trek enclypedias to be enjoyed. I've got several non-Trek interested friends who enjoy the show.

One thing that might stop it is if Netflix hit trouble if there’s only distribution in the states on whatever the channel was (I forget) then the fan base may whither that said the likes of Amazon may pick up too
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #923 on: 19 February 2018, 06:50:30 »
Question.  Would the split of the CBS and Paramount Studios who divied up the Trek copyrights CBS got TV and Paramount got the film right force each party have to change the appearance of the major aliens as well as their ships?
I know they changed it to be different but is there underlining legal thing which is usually hidden from the viewing public as well?
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #924 on: 19 February 2018, 10:41:56 »
Question.  Would the split of the CBS and Paramount Studios who divied up the Trek copyrights CBS got TV and Paramount got the film right force each party have to change the appearance of the major aliens as well as their ships?
I know they changed it to be different but is there underlining legal thing which is usually hidden from the viewing public as well?

IF that is the true reason then Star Trek is Fubared for me... but dont think so because then they would need to do the same with Vulcans, Andorians, Orions, etc... i guess...
« Last Edit: 19 February 2018, 11:58:04 by Kentares »
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #925 on: 19 February 2018, 18:36:44 »
Which, based on Sarek's Vulcan presence alone, didn't happen.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #926 on: 19 February 2018, 18:49:44 »
I'm not certain you can trademark pointy ears and smug superiority without Tolkein's ghost popping up and smacking you in the face.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #927 on: 19 February 2018, 19:13:00 »
I'm not certain you can trademark pointy ears and smug superiority without Tolkein's ghost popping up and smacking you in the face.

It's too generic to be trademarked. Same way you can run around the web writing "space marine" everywhere without worrying about GW throwing the book at you.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #928 on: 19 February 2018, 19:43:35 »
And what are Andorians and Orions really known for aside from being blue and green, respectively?

Okay, aside from Orion females being gratuitous fanservice, what is either species known for?
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Ruger

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #929 on: 19 February 2018, 20:04:05 »
And what are Andorians and Orions really known for aside from being blue and green, respectively?

Okay, aside from Orion females being gratuitous fanservice, what is either species known for?

Andorians were known for blue skin, white, feathery hair, antennae, ferocious tempers, and fighting spirit...

Orions were known for green skin (and showing off a lot of it), slavery, and other assorted criminal activities...ie, the Orion Syndicates and smuggling vessels...

Ruger
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