Author Topic: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)  (Read 25321 times)

sillybrit

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Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« on: 29 January 2012, 15:54:30 »
Nighthawk Mk XXI PA(L) - Technical Readout 3075 page 13



     Although the Elemental was the first Battle Armor to be published in usable form, this is the real genesis, the alpha, the one, the only, the Nighthawk PA(L), or Powered Armor (Light). With a name like Nighthawk, the suit sounds like a professional wrestler or superhero - or perhaps a men's cologne from the 1970s - and it's all that and more, being the powered armor fielded by the SLDF's elite special operations teams, the Blackhearts. State of the art in its time, with incomparable performance, it was the best that equipped the best of the best, and until recent years its existence was just a shadow of a rumor for most of the Inner Sphere.

     The Nighthawk, and specifically the Mk XXI model, was mentioned long before we had any stats or any real details about the design, appearing in the novel Tactics of Duty, part of the series about the Gray Death Legion. Although the novel's depiction of the background of Battle Armor and PA(L)s is somewhat inconsistent when compared to other publications, we could at least infer some characteristics of the Nighthawk. The suit was apparently stealthy, relied upon standard handheld infantry weapons and possessed jump jets, although details such as the actual effects of the stealth, the level of armor and the jump range were all uncertain. Given the only designs that were available at the time, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to assume that the Nighthawk was akin to the Gray Death Scout Suit, especially due to the novel incorrectly claiming that the Nighthawk was used to develop the Scout Suit, but with the stealth capabilities of the Infiltrator Mk I, or simply Infiltrator as it was known then.

     The Tornado PA(L), published in the Fall of Terra scenario pack the year after Tactics of Duty, provided the first hint that the Nighthawk could be even lighter than the Gray Death Scout. We had to wait until the 2005 publication of Combat Equipment to get the first complete look at the powered armor that equipped the SLDF's elite Special Armed Services - the name undoubtedly a salute to the real world Special Air Service of the British Army. The SAS, or Blackhearts, were just one arm of the Special Forces Command alongside the All-Weather Armor Corps or Foul Weather Fiends, BattleMech battalions trained to operate in the most hostile environments, and the Special Forces Aero Wing or Flying Lions, an aerospace unit that not only undertook the most dangerous missions but also had a precision flying display team. With the Blackhearts known to possess a hundred battalion-sized teams towards the end of the Star League, they potentially fielded thousands of Nighthawks, and it's an unspoken testament to their skills at black ops that the PA(L) was not more widely known.

     The Nighthawk has a similar background to the Elemental, being based upon exoskeletons that were used only for non-combat purposes. The MK XXI has the notable distinction of possessing the longest known Battle Armor development project lasting from 2703 to 2718, that resulted in the Mk I to MK XX prototypes being in turn replaced by successive models as the design was refined until it was eventually perfected, with another two years of field tests with the SLDF until finally signed off for full production in 2720. Technical Readout 3075 currently states the 2718 date, implying that it's the service date, but according to Combat Equipment that's actually when the SLDF was presented with a model ready for trials, with the Master Unit List recognizing the later date.

     The Word of Blake, with access to all the facilities of Terra, was the first to put the Nighthawk back into production after finally duplicating the design in 3065, with ComStar following their achievement two years later. It was ComStar that once more returned the Nighthawk to SLDF service, albeit that of the second Star League, with the suit again finding itself in a special operations role with the Fury Teams assigned to the Star League Intelligence Command. ComStar did temporarily lose production of the Nighthawk after the loss of the facility on Tukayyid, but they eventually put the suit back into production on Arc-Royal, resulting in its adoption by Clan Wolf-In-Exile. Many ex-Blakist Mk XXIs can be found in mercenary hands, while others were supplied to the Free Worlds League, with the RAF another major user thanks to the possession of the factories on Terra.

     Both Combat Equipment and the Technical Readout note that a combat orientated version, the Mk XXII, which was intended for general deployment across the SLDF's Royal divisions, was under development and presumably was undertaking field trials until the Amaris Coup halted all progress at the time, until almost bizarrely eventually entering production with the Niops Association. Later publications give us another prototype that eventually sees service, including use by perhaps the most infamous and visible operator of the Nighthawk, the mysterious Bounty Hunter.

     The fall of the Star League almost spelled the end of the Nighthawk's story. Amazingly, at least one Nighthawk Mk XXII survived in private hands, as well as the modified Mk XXX used by the Bounty Hunter, but it was those few that left with the Exodus or found their way into ComStar's hands after the capture of Terra in 2788 that had the greatest impact. Both the Clans and ComStar used their copies as inspiration for new designs, leading to the whole Battle Armor revolution in the case of Clan Wolf's development of the Elemental, while a simpler, less capable form of the Nighthawk appeared as the Tornado PA(L). The Nighthawk was also instrumental in the development of the Infiltrator Mk II, after the Gray Death Legion found some Mk XXIs in a lost SLDF bunker, subsequently turning over some of the suits to NAIS, although they kept at least two, as shown in the novel Tactics of Duty.

     Although the Nighthawk would have offered astounding capabilities at the time of its deployment with the SLDF, in general Battle Armor terms it's actually not all that great in heavy combat due to the one flaw shared by all PA(L)s - and to a lesser degree, Light suits - namely, their weak armor protection. Of course, this is an artifact of the game mechanism, that limits Battle Armor and PA(L)s to deployment in squads of six or less, and in real world terms, or within the RPG, the improvement in protection over unpowered infantry is significant. Outside of RPG scenarios, we are stuck with the game mechanisms that limit powered infantry unit sizes and given that PA(L)s can be equipped with no more than two points of armor, this means that they can quickly and easily be swept away on the battlefield, even having to be cautious around conventional infantry platoons.

     The Nighthawk itself possess the maximum two points of armor available to PA(L)s, but it is its stealth effect that provides the greatest protection against non-infantry opponents. Encased in Standard Stealth composites, the Nighthawk would be a difficult target for BattleMechs and vehicles, especially at longer ranges, and in the original rules the Stealth armor also prevented the suit from being detected by Active Probes when hidden, although this ability was lost under Total War. The suit was also equipped with an ECM Suite to further befuddle enemy sensors, and when using the Ghost Target rules from Tactical Operations this system can make even short range fire incredibly inaccurate.

     For armament, the Nighthawk relied upon infantry weapons wielded in the pair of Armored Gloves, which also allowed the suit to conduct Anti-'Mech attacks. Obviously, they also enable the PA(L) to hitch a ride on Omnis, but those weren't available in the Star League Defense Force, being an ability that would only be seen once the Nighthawk was resurrected in 3065. As a special operations unit, the Blackhearts would have had access to any weapons the Star League could provide, but the most common choice was the Mauser 960 Assault System - or as I call it the Mauser 960 Hardware Store System, given the survival kit, first aid kit and entrenching tool that the SLDF bizarrely felt should be carried in and on the weapon.

     Other likely armament choices would have been SRM launchers, machine guns, and other such support weapons, taking advantage of the strength enhancement provided by the suit, that would allow a Blackheart team to punch well above their weight if a mission turned hot. The Infantry TAG support weapon would have proven very useful and, just like real world Special Forces examples, would allow troops to designate for Arrow IVs and laser guided bombs, plus Semi-Guided LRMs when the Nighthawk is revived in the modern era. In RPG scenarios, the flexibility provided by the Armored Gloves enables the trooper to operate anything an unarmored person can, while the relatively small size of the Nighthawk eases concerns about operating Battle Armor in tight spaces or in fragile structures.

     The Nighthawk's mobility is what would be considered the standard for Medium or less Battle Armor, also matching that of conventional jump infantry. The integrated jets provide a ninety meter jump capability, or 3 Movement Points, that make the suit a much harder target when fully exploited, although the ground movement is much more modest at a single Movement Point. During covert operations, it's the latter movement mode that would probably be used the most and it's somewhat surprising that the SLDF did not initially develop the suit with higher ground speed, although such a model was eventually produced in the form of the Mk XXX.

     Rounding out the MK XXI's systems is Extended Life Support, an addition that adds only fluff capability to the design. It's worthwhile making clear at this point that the requirement for Exoskeleton units to be equipped with Extended Life Support and at least one point of armor if they are to be used in a vacuum or other hostile environment does not apply to Power Armor (Light) units. Although they share most characteristics, PA(L)s and Exoskeletons are two separate types of unit, with the latter effectively being the non-combat version of the pair. When designing a suit in game terms, it's a simple matter of declaring which type is being created, without any specific equipment being required.

     First mentioned in Combat Equipment and then finally given stats in Technical Readout 3075, the Mk XXII was the intended frontline combat variant of the Nighthawk series. By removing the ECM Suite enough mass was freed up to install a Micro Grenade Launcher. A questionable weapon, one that would be better exchanged for a Machine Gun, its choice was due to the little noticed powered armor suit that appeared in the Royalty and Rogues adventure pack. The Mk XXII was intended to be a rules compliant version of that suit, although it was not produced just for that sole example, with Technical Readout 3075 also noting that the Niops Association have begun production, using blueprints contained in their Star League-era archives. The Mk XXII proved to be an unwelcome surprise for marauding troops from the Marian Hegemony, although judging by the suit's appearance in the Hegemony's RATs in Field Manual 3085, the MHAF have captured or salvage enough examples to be able to put them into service.

     Appearing in Record Sheets 3085 Old Is The New New, the Mk XXX is the latest addition to the Nighthawk stable. This version removes both the Extended Life Support and ECM Suite of the Mk XXI, investing some of that mass to triple the ground speed, which would be very useful for covert operations where troops need to quickly move without the signature of a jump. Developed, or most probably just entering field trials, in 2744 according to the Master Unit List, the Mk XXX also adds an extra power pack and fuel tank to extend the endurance in RPG scenarios, as well as also proving useful in zero-G operations, as per Strategic Operations. In BattleTech games, the Mk XXX's high ground speed make it a natural choice for urban combat in the role of spotter, where the effects of its low armor and lack of heavy weaponry can be minimized, although like all PA(L)s it shouldn't be expected to survive.

     The Mk XXX was actually first seen in the guise of the Bounty Hunter's green body armor, that he's never seen without after its appearance in 2957. First fully described in Interstellar Players, although not named as a Nighthawk Mk XXX at the time, that version differs from the later stats in Record Sheets 3085 Old Is The New New. Prior to 3034 neither the Stealth armor nor the jump jets are functioning, limting the suit to the stats represented by the Bounty Hunter variant in the Record Sheets, but after that date he is wearing a fully capable Mk XXX.

     Use of the Nighthawk in the BattleTech game can best be summed up with one word: don't.  It's true that they're cheap in BV terms as far as Battle Armor goes, but they're cheap for good cause. No matter how hard you try, no matter how consistently you jump 90 meters from cover to cover, while trying to keep the enemy at a distance, sooner or later your Nighthawk squads are going to get hit and then they will simply melt away faster than ice under a blowtorch. Time and time again in Star League era games I've had to watch them fall, and in the far more dangerous battlefields of the modern era, their survivability is even worse. If you do chose - or are forced - to field Nighthawks, then they're best used as forward observers or as cheap throwaway scouts in double blind games. Their low cost does potentially allow you to use a lot of them, which can make them a danger to 'Mechs in confined terrain, where the prospect of Leg Attacks offer the best offensive prospects.

     Depending upon whether the optional rules for infantry weapons are being used, then Man-Portable Plasma Rifles, David Light Gauss Rifles, Portable Machine Guns and Standard Two-Shot SRM Launchers offer the best offensive selections - the burst fire capability of the Machine Guns being particularly useful due to the bonus damage against infantry if even a single suit hits. Obviously, the Infantry TAG remains a powerful option for units with plentiful fire support that can benefit from the targeting data, but doing so invariably makes the Nighthawks a priority target. Thanks to its Grenade Launcher, the Mk XXII can inflict Swarming damage, but the actual damage is so minor that the squad will mostly be relying upon the possibility of a critical hit.

     The Mk XXI's ECM offers the possibility of being used in an interdiction role, jamming enemy electronics such as C3 networks or Artemis IV systems, although the short range does limit the effect - this jamming capability is the only time a Mk XXI squad can perform an effective Swarm, particularly when used against a C3 Master-unit. The Ghost Target rules can allow the Mk XXI to act as an escort for other units, disrupting enemy attempts to shoot through the PA(L)'s hex, which can be a helpful bonus for Omnis that happen to be transporting a squad.

     Overall, the Nighthawk in all its versions is best used as a RPG unit. The BAR value of even the two points of armor the design possesses makes it a tough target to crack for most small arms, while the suit's flexibility thanks to its Armored Gloves allows it to easily fit in with unpowered personnel. Although playing somewhat loose with physics, in my experience many players tend to ignore the 400kg mass, allowing Nighthawk operators to freely move around without the worry of floors or other structures collapsing under their weight or making any excessive noise as a trooper creeps up on a target. Other players prefer to play as realistically as possible, but at least in those circumstances a PA(L) is not as heavy footed as other RPG Battle Armor favorites, such as the even heavier Gray Death Scout and Kage.

     Although its existence was revealed relatively late in the timeline of Battle Armor, for me the Nighthawk, despite its shortcomings, deserves all the respect and acknowledgement it's due as the progenitor of the entire family of powered infantry. Within the universe, without this suit it's entirely possible that those Wolf Scientists would have never thought to develop those underwater industrial exoskeletons into the Elemental, and without the Elemental all those wonderful designs that followed could not exist. For that, and that alone, the Nighthawk earns its place in the Battle Armor Hall of Fame, with a larger than life statue posed in a buffalo stance to greet all who visit to admire these incredible combatants.

Next up:
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Note: I realized while finishing this and the Tornado article that I'd accidentally skipped the Afreet and Rottweiler articles. My apologies to those players who were waiting for them.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 17:36:11 by sillybrit »

SCC

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #1 on: 30 January 2012, 02:39:33 »
Best used in the RPG makes sense, it was designed for covert ops

Diablo48

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #2 on: 30 January 2012, 05:10:45 »
It is really a shame there are no rules for using larger squad sizes for suits this light because they would do much better in larger formations like conventional infantry.  That said, you could probably get some utility out of the ECM in urban combat by fanning them out to disrupt electronics and arming them with TAG so they can drop a nasty sucker punch on someone when they break cover.  Another thing that would probably help is to go for back shots against distracted targets to prevent immediate retaliation and hopefully buy the suits time to go find a new hiding place either on their own or with the assistance of a transport.


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #3 on: 30 January 2012, 10:54:53 »
Even in the board game, keeping it fully legal, a platoon of Nighthawks can be a potential terror; the key is to NOT see it as battlearmour but as upgraded conventional infantry.

How? I hear you ask; "BA squads have a maximum of six trooper and standard PBI squads have seven!"

Simple; instead of a single 7-trooper squad, make each "squad" out of two nighthawk squads (one 3-trooper and one 4-trooper) fluffed as the two fireteams that comprise each squad. Keep each pair close to each other, voila.

In the boardgame map, this allows a single platoon to deploy over up to six or eight hexes; if properly used, this will allow for greater tactical flexibility and greater survival for the platoon.


Ian Sharpe

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #4 on: 30 January 2012, 11:07:43 »
Stuff like the Nighthawk and Tornado begs for a Battletroops updated for them(along with all BA types).  They're still moderately useful as headhunter teams, esp if the weapon is mech-scaled or TAG is used to call in strikes. 

sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #5 on: 30 January 2012, 15:31:48 »
Even in the board game, keeping it fully legal, a platoon of Nighthawks can be a potential terror; the key is to NOT see it as battlearmour but as upgraded conventional infantry.

How? I hear you ask; "BA squads have a maximum of six trooper and standard PBI squads have seven!"

Simple; instead of a single 7-trooper squad, make each "squad" out of two nighthawk squads (one 3-trooper and one 4-trooper) fluffed as the two fireteams that comprise each squad. Keep each pair close to each other, voila.

In the boardgame map, this allows a single platoon to deploy over up to six or eight hexes; if properly used, this will allow for greater tactical flexibility and greater survival for the platoon.

The problem is that the individual PA(L) squads are still incredibly vulnerable (especially that 3-suit squad), more than PBIs in some circumstances, such as Area Effect attacks. Add in armor kits and conventional infantry aren't far short of PA(L)s with respect to individual toughness, that can result in many weapon hits that will kill a PA(L) but only damage an infantryman. Of course, there are weapons that will result in the opposite, eg. MGs, but the point being that no matter how they're deployed PA(L)s are still generally walking corpses in BattleTech.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #6 on: 30 January 2012, 15:46:26 »
Definitely a specops suit, and that's how I plan to run it with my Marians. Either dig in on some distant mountain peak for LRM spotting, or up closer during some very mission-specific raid scenarios, say the kind that let you move and stay hidden. The potential ability for a Nighthawk squad to sneak in, grab a VIP or important floppy disk(yes, really), and sneak out without being spotted by sentries could prove extremely useful. I may use them as strategic spotters, too. These would be the guys that follow enemy forces from a distance and do nothing but monitor their position, reporting back on a regular basis.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #7 on: 30 January 2012, 16:45:03 »
How? I hear you ask; "BA squads have a maximum of six trooper and standard PBI squads have seven!"
House Rule it?
Simple; instead of a single 7-trooper squad, make each "squad" out of two nighthawk squads (one 3-trooper and one 4-trooper) fluffed as the two fireteams that comprise each squad. Keep each pair close to each other, voila.

In the boardgame map, this allows a single platoon to deploy over up to six or eight hexes; if properly used, this will allow for greater tactical flexibility and greater survival for the platoon.
Does this work better when squad deployment is used?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #8 on: 30 January 2012, 19:31:13 »
Question,   What/Where are the rules for equiping a squad of these w/ Heavy support lasers ?

2 per 4 man team like grunts ?   or   1 per person since they are super strong ?

Also, how does Infantry TAG come into play ?
Is it 1 per squad ?   Limited # in a squad just like a support weapon ?

Can you field TAG along w/ other support weapons like the HSL above ?


Overall I like the suit as a Spec Ops unit, taking on mechs/tanks is just bad for business w/ them.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #9 on: 30 January 2012, 19:34:13 »
Or go USMC style, and use 4 trooper fire teams, 3 fire team squads, and 3 squad platoons with a command team (PLT LDR, PLTN SGT, HM, and Radio).  >:D

I could also handwave the seventh man in a squad as being a tech.  With cutting edge gear in the field, I can see technical assistance being placed at a much lower level than normal.
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sillybrit

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #10 on: 30 January 2012, 21:26:02 »
Question,   What/Where are the rules for equiping a squad of these w/ Heavy support lasers ?

2 per 4 man team like grunts ?   or   1 per person since they are super strong ?

Also, how does Infantry TAG come into play ?
Is it 1 per squad ?   Limited # in a squad just like a support weapon ?

Can you field TAG along w/ other support weapons like the HSL above ?

Overall I like the suit as a Spec Ops unit, taking on mechs/tanks is just bad for business w/ them.

As long as a weapon has a Crew requirement of 1 or 1E, then Battle Armor and PA(L)s with at least one Armored Glove can wield them, with every suit in a squad carrying them even if they're Support weapons that would be limited to just 1 or 2 per squad for conventional infantry.

None of the Support Lasers qualify due to them all requiring 2 or more Crew, so for pure damage the best option would be the Man-Portable Plasma Rifle for the Inner Sphere or the Bearhunter for the Clans (although I'd prefer the Heavy Auto GL due to its slighly longer range), however for range you'd want the David Light Gauss, with the Clans not having a longer ranged Support weapon better than the Mauser IIC.

When armed with Infantry TAG, every trooper in a Battle Armor or PA(L) squad, because the rules don't allow Battle Armor to mix the weapons each squad member carries. Like conventional infantry or suits with integral Light TAGs, only one target per Turn could be marked, but unlike conventional infantry they don't have a Primary infantry weapon to attack with in addition to TAGing.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #11 on: 30 January 2012, 23:15:17 »
Thanks SB.

So you follow BA rules and every person is the same v/s Infantry Rules where you mix/match the squad.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #12 on: 31 January 2012, 01:59:59 »
Exactly.

I've played games/campaigns where it was house ruled to allow Battle Armor/PA(L)s to wield similar Primary/Secondary mixes like conventional infantry without causing any significant imbalance.

If using such house rules with infantry TAGs (as detailed in the attachment in the TacOps errata thread), I'd treat the Battle Armor/PA(L) squads just like conventional infantry, requiring a pair of TAGs to be able to mark targets, while the remaining squad members would be equipped with a different weapon and be able to use them simultaneously with the TAGs as a separate attack.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #13 on: 31 January 2012, 23:06:30 »
Thanks for a most informative and insightful article, sillybrit!

I wish they would least allow PA(L)s to operate in larger formations. I realize that larger formations would theaten need to have conventional infantry, or least Jump Infantry, but i would like see that happen.

Its too bad the unit waste of bv other than RPG and possibly nich situations.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #14 on: 01 February 2012, 09:16:29 »
House Rule it?

*ahem*

Even in the board game, keeping it fully legal, a platoon of Nighthawks can be a potential terror; the key is to NOT see it as battlearmour but as upgraded conventional infantry.

How? I hear you ask; "BA squads have a maximum of six trooper and standard PBI squads have seven!"

"Keeping it fully legal" and "house ruling it" are mutually exclusive.  8)

Quote
Does this work better when squad deployment is used?

You are confusing conventional infantry with BA [PA(L), in this case]; I'm talking about organizing BA squads as platoons, reflecting PBI formations under squad deployment rules.

Or go USMC style, and use 4 trooper fire teams, 3 fire team squads, and 3 squad platoons with a command team (PLT LDR, PLTN SGT, HM, and Radio).  >:D

I could also handwave the seventh man in a squad as being a tech.  With cutting edge gear in the field, I can see technical assistance being placed at a much lower level than normal.

You mean like in this article?

Alternately, the 28-trooper Nighthawk platoon  could be comprised of four 6-trooper squads with a 4-trooper HQ/command squad.


When armed with Infantry TAG, every trooper in a Battle Armor or PA(L) squad, because the rules don't allow Battle Armor to mix the weapons each squad member carries. Like conventional infantry or suits with integral Light TAGs, only one target per Turn could be marked, but unlike conventional infantry they don't have a Primary infantry weapon to attack with in addition to TAGing.

Which would not be an issue when the "7-trooper squad" is actually two "fireteams" equating to two in-rules squads of 3 and 4 troopers respectively; one can pack the TAG, the other standard infantry weapons.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #15 on: 01 February 2012, 15:15:36 »
BTW. If ability to swarm the enemy unit depends on the weapon carried then how about the leg attack? IIRC that didn't realy have anything to do with the weapon carried and it does 4 pts. no mater what weapon is carried.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #16 on: 01 February 2012, 15:27:59 »
Yup, no problems there aside from the fact that doing so brings your troops really close to those big guns that Nighthawks are so weak against. But if you can close without getting shot to pieces, go right ahead. I'm betting that's how Niopsian Nighthawks drove off a Marian raid on their worlds just before the Jihad.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #17 on: 01 February 2012, 15:52:58 »
Yup, no problems there aside from the fact that doing so brings your troops really close to those big guns that Nighthawks are so weak against. But if you can close without getting shot to pieces, go right ahead. I'm betting that's how Niopsian Nighthawks drove off a Marian raid on their worlds just before the Jihad.

Isn't that how things are with infantry? You need to let enemy to come to you or there is very little you can do. You can't out pace them, outgunning is almost unheard of and range is almost certainly on the enemy's side.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #18 on: 01 February 2012, 16:44:37 »
This is why infantry tactics in the battletech universe are the realm of dirty tricks. Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. There is no middle ground, though combinations do occur. The infantry commander's job is to maximize the giggle, and minimize the Godzilla.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #19 on: 02 February 2012, 00:59:56 »
This is why infantry tactics in the battletech universe are the realm of dirty tricks. Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. There is no middle ground, though combinations do occur. The infantry commander's job is to maximize the giggle, and minimize the Godzilla.

True.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #20 on: 02 February 2012, 01:11:57 »
sillybrit, are you going to do the demon series (WoB) too?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #21 on: 02 February 2012, 03:10:35 »
Yes, we are, although the first pair of WoB Battle Armor articles won't be out until about mid March. That should be the Asura & Djinn, or - as jymset likes to call them - the Blakists' bread and butter suits.

A slight update to the schedule: I'm going to get the PA(L)s done and buried, rather than the Afreet/Rottweiler that I inadvertently skipped, so that should be the Aerie and Regate hopefully being out later this week, although various scheduling issues are causing me some delays.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #22 on: 02 February 2012, 07:16:51 »
This is why infantry tactics in the battletech universe are the realm of dirty tricks. Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. There is no middle ground, though combinations do occur. The infantry commander's job is to maximize the giggle, and minimize the Godzilla.

if it wasn't so long it would be quote worthy =^o^=
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #23 on: 02 February 2012, 12:08:22 »
if it wasn't so long it would be quote worthy =^o^=

Just shorten it to this:
Against 'mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap.
O0
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #24 on: 02 February 2012, 15:26:45 »
Yes, we are, although the first pair of WoB Battle Armor articles won't be out until about mid March. That should be the Asura & Djinn, or - as jymset likes to call them - the Blakists' bread and butter suits.

A slight update to the schedule: I'm going to get the PA(L)s done and buried, rather than the Afreet/Rottweiler that I inadvertently skipped, so that should be the Aerie and Regate hopefully being out later this week, although various scheduling issues are causing me some delays.

Awesome all around.  I really enjoy these articles as I have rarely had opportunities to play with Battle Armor.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #25 on: 14 April 2012, 02:12:47 »
Based on the errata for Tac Ops, the XXII might be a good option for setting fires and lines of smoke?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #26 on: 14 April 2012, 15:24:53 »
Just shorten it to this: O0

Actually, I think I will  ;)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #27 on: 14 April 2012, 15:30:58 »
Nice, though you attributed it to someone else. ;)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #28 on: 14 April 2012, 15:34:14 »
Nice, though you attributed it to someone else. ;)

No I didn't, maybe you saw my Joel quote above it.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #29 on: 14 April 2012, 15:40:01 »
Nope. My name's not in your sig, just someone very similar. ;)

Hint: I'm usually understanding of spelling errors, this being the Internet and all, but I draw the line at names, especially my own.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #30 on: 14 April 2012, 16:14:00 »
Haha, very funny,  ::)
I actually didn't even make it to the end of the 1st sentance let alone the hint before I noticed the spelling error directly above.

Fixed    ;)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #31 on: 03 November 2019, 06:56:37 »
Does anyone have any experiences using Nighthawks to spot for artillery or indirect fire? Did they survive?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #32 on: 03 November 2019, 09:45:23 »
Does anyone have any experiences using Nighthawks to spot for artillery or indirect fire? Did they survive?

I played against a guy that did.  All you need is something more potent to deal with first.  I haven't gotten a chance to do it yet but see a great deal of potential for a heavy 6 man squad of them

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #33 on: 03 November 2019, 10:27:28 »
We had to wait until the 2005 publication of Combat Equipment to get the first complete look at the powered armor that equipped the SLDF's elite Special Armed Services - the name undoubtedly a salute to the real world Special Air Service of the British Army. The SAS, or Blackhearts, were just one arm of the Special Forces Command alongside the All-Weather Armor Corps or Foul Weather Fiends, BattleMech battalions trained to operate in the most hostile environments, and the Special Forces Aero Wing or Flying Lions, an aerospace unit that not only undertook the most dangerous missions but also had a precision flying display team. With the Blackhearts known to possess a hundred battalion-sized teams towards the end of the Star League, they potentially fielded thousands of Nighthawks, and it's an unspoken testament to their skills at black ops that the PA(L) was not more widely known.
Ran into an interesting note about this in Field Manual Federated Suns the other day. The book says one of the special forces units that operated the Night Hawk was the Rapid Deployment Mixed Arm Forces units aka the Deneb Light Cavalry out of Deneb Kaitos. Did that end up getting addressed in the newer Star League books?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #34 on: 03 November 2019, 10:32:18 »
I played against a guy that did.  All you need is something more potent to deal with first.  I haven't gotten a chance to do it yet but see a great deal of potential for a heavy 6 man squad of them

More potent, or redundantly so. If killing one squad will stop the IDF rain, then that squad's turns are numbered. But three or four squads scattered around the battlefield with overlapping fields of LoS? That requires enough firepower to kill that your opponent may decide it's not worth it and just decide to focus on your main battle line.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #35 on: 03 November 2019, 12:11:05 »
I don't know if I've ever played with someone that brings the rain like that Weirdo.  While I agree that having multiple squads is good I have never played a game where I couldn't reach the indirectly firing unit with at least some of my force and shut it down at least for a little while.  My biggest problems is always Gauss boats with poor map selection on the part of the GM

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #36 on: 03 November 2019, 12:54:07 »
If all you're going to use them for is spotting, you don't PA(L).  Squad deployment of regular infantry works just fine.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #37 on: 04 November 2019, 15:52:30 »
Thing is the Nighthawks will be able to move about more and so can adjust their position to find baddies . . . and IIRC, the Nighthawks have more/better sensors which will matter when doing DB or other advanced set ups.

I have not used Nighthawks for this, but GDL Scouts work really well . . . and then will annoy folks when they get to a mech's leg.  They were of the early 4 jumping BA which made it easier to get to a target's legs.

So for me, Nighthawks are better b/c they can also play clean up.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #38 on: 04 November 2019, 18:19:15 »
Nighthawks move the same as Jump Infantry (i.e., 1/3), but I agree if you want them for more than spotting they're the better choice.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #39 on: 04 November 2019, 21:32:53 »
Yeah, I was pointing to using the jump for dismissed Scouts to get in leg attacks.  While the Nighthawks do not jump as far, they will still be ignored . . . until you get that first leg crit.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #40 on: 01 February 2020, 04:29:43 »
What is the weight of Nighthawk PA(L)? As in, how much space do 4 take in an Infantry Bay?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #41 on: 01 February 2020, 04:48:04 »
Sarna says 400 kg.  If you're using the "specific weights" optional rule, that would be 1.6 tons for four.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #42 on: 01 February 2020, 09:06:52 »
I'm not familiar with that one but the Advanced Battle Armor Weights table on TO page 186 has them at 0.25 tons, one ton per four suit squad.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #43 on: 02 February 2020, 19:52:17 »
I'm not familiar with that one but the Advanced Battle Armor Weights table on TO page 186 has them at 0.25 tons, one ton per four suit squad.
Suddenly the standard version Goblin 'Infantry Tank' becomes much more useful in combined arms.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #44 on: 02 February 2020, 19:58:07 »
Huh... comparing TO page 187 to TM page 163, it seems they erred at the bottom end.  Medium, Heavy and Assault BA all match, though.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #45 on: 02 February 2020, 21:57:12 »
And the Ferret's with a single ton bay . . . especially IIRC they jump.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #46 on: 03 February 2020, 22:13:06 »
3-2-1....... Green Light & I'm not slowing this Helo down !!!    vrooomm

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #47 on: 16 March 2020, 10:59:07 »
Does anyone have any experience using Nighthawks with infantry TAG to spot for artillery or Semi-guided LRM fire? Was it a good idea or a bad idea?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #48 on: 16 March 2020, 11:03:22 »
Works fine . . . but the range is shorter for Infantry IIRC . . . and the Nighthawk are squishier than something like the Kage or Achileus.  Best bet IMO is as a hidden unit . . . right up until the point the target is in mid or maybe even (if no enemy BAP) short range.  Have a plan to bug out or drop down behind a hill for cover, though I play with DB so if your break LOS you can shift position and pop up last.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #49 on: 16 March 2020, 13:27:43 »
What he said. Slow TAGgers tend to draw a lot of fire as soon as they reveal their threat level, so keeping your Nighthawks alive for more than a turn or two will be difficult. In fact, it might be a good idea to assume that you'll only get a very small number of TAG shots out of them when you decide if they're worth bringing.

As for getting that use out of them once they're on the battlefield... My thoughts pretty much echo Colt's. Keep them hidden until the last minute, and use every trick in the book to keep them alive - EVERY TRICK. If heavy buildings are available, put them in there. If not, put them in heavy woods, and make sure they're using the Digging In rules from TacOps. In both cases, be prepared to abandon that hex and retreat at a moment's notice, because artillery and/or enemy infantry are always a thing.

If neither heavy woods or buildings are available... don't bring Nighthawks to the fight. They'll just die too fast.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #50 on: 16 March 2020, 17:27:25 »
As usual, Weirdo has the right of it...

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #51 on: 07 June 2020, 20:58:58 »
like all spotters, hiding and being ready to bug out at a moment notice to survive.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #52 on: 08 June 2020, 06:58:16 »
Nighthawks were always intended as scout armor weren't they?  Makes sense keep them on the move and fight from cover and concealment.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #53 on: 08 June 2020, 08:02:51 »
Nighthawks were always intended as scout armor weren't they?  Makes sense keep them on the move and fight from cover and concealment.

How do they look on RP as opposed to Tabletop scale?  IIRC ATOW mentions that even relatively 'weak' battle armor when up against Mechs or tanks looks like the Terminator more or less when on RP scale against PCs and NPCs.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #54 on: 08 June 2020, 17:16:56 »
PA(L) at the AToW scale are quite frightening... not so much at TW scale.  I think that was "as intended"...  ^-^

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #55 on: 08 June 2020, 20:55:34 »
Pretty good way to illustrate the vast difference in power that lies between an AToW fight and a TW battlefield...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #56 on: 08 June 2020, 22:05:35 »
Pretty good way to illustrate the vast difference in power that lies between an AToW fight and a TW battlefield...

It's a matter of scale, you can carry larger, and more, weapons when you are based on a vehicle, rather than on yourself.  BA exists in a scale that sits between the two.  Large enough to carry a few weapons, but small ones on the vehicle scale and armor just enough to stop one large, or a couple medium weapon hits.

On the infantry scale?  That 'piddling' machine gun or 'small' laser is an infantry support weapon that requires a small vehicle or several soldiers to move, and is often set up in a static position.  Making a single suit, even the 'small' PA(L) a walking machine gun nest.

And battle armor's protection is roughly scaled to their armament.  So you needs those multi-man crewed weapons, or other anti-tank/armor 'heavy' weapons, to have a decent chance of doing more than scratch the armor.  But you can't carry the armor one does, so I can see why things get, messy, for PBIs.  Which kinda fits how a single machine gun IS Standard BA squad/Elemental point can chew through an entire infantry platoon in TW, quickly and often with little loss in return.

In ATOW you carry a weapon, in TW weapon carries you.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: 08 June 2020, 22:07:27 by Nikas_Zekeval »

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #57 on: 09 June 2020, 11:27:25 »
I asked the RPG side of the forum for help understanding the RPG combat rules and the referred me to these vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9n6xNEAboA&list=PLW4v4K6PB7qIWAumfYAqdfxOlk4OgDOTD&index=9&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjMMr02-kc&list=PLW4v4K6PB7qIWAumfYAqdfxOlk4OgDOTD&index=9

And I have friends who thing TW is overly complicated.

Anyway, it seems like the Kage trooper is rather hard to kill, but there's a whole lot of moving parts in this system!
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Hellraiser

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #58 on: 19 June 2020, 20:02:13 »
One thing I wish in Infantry rules was that you got multiple TAG attempts instead of just 1 for having multiple TAGs.

Its annoying that your 4 TAGs either all miss or all hit, etc etc on a single roll.  But there is no benefit for having multiple TAGs connect from a BA squad.

I feel like there needs to be a some sort of benefit for having 4 in a squad or 8 in the Foot Platoon that has them from TRO3085.

Is there even a difference for the Conventional Infantry if you have them as 1/Squad or 2/Squad?   Since the TAG roll is a separate roll?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #59 on: 19 June 2020, 20:20:22 »
There is not, TAG on any infantry unit (armored or conventional) is very much a simple yes/no affair, you have it or you don't. This tells me a few things:

First off, there are some things in Battletech that are legal to do, but that doesn't mean they're ever actually a good idea. Multiple TAGs per conventional squad send to be one of those things.

Second, we know that TAG is more than just a simple laser designator. As such, my headcanon is that no single infantry or BA unit can actually manage all that a vehicular TAG does, you need multiple cooperating units to do it. For the sake of sanity, I'm completely ignoring the fact that these units can continue TAGging even in the face of heavy casualties. Just say something something picking up the unit used by your dead buddy, as needed.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #60 on: 19 June 2020, 21:09:21 »
I asked the RPG side of the forum for help understanding the RPG combat rules and the referred me to these vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9n6xNEAboA&list=PLW4v4K6PB7qIWAumfYAqdfxOlk4OgDOTD&index=9&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjMMr02-kc&list=PLW4v4K6PB7qIWAumfYAqdfxOlk4OgDOTD&index=9

And I have friends who thing TW is overly complicated.

Anyway, it seems like the Kage trooper is rather hard to kill, but there's a whole lot of moving parts in this system!

Aaaand this is why I avoid AToW.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #61 on: 19 June 2020, 23:20:02 »
I feel like for custom infantry, one of the better options is a Non-Support platoon w/ 3 Tags & 1 Medic.

Just have to find a solid primary weapon with a good combo of Range/Damage, preferably 3(9) so it matches the TAG.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #62 on: 23 August 2021, 08:56:08 »
A bit of thread necromancy, but I actually took a squad of Nighthawks into a TW-scale game recently, and the results were interesting enough to bear sharing.

The squad in question were basic Mk. XXIs, equipped with a Mauser 960 each. This was an RAF force, and I'd brought them specifically to provide ECM screening to an Ares superheavy tripod. Their job was to keep up with the Ares (they didn't ride aboard, because I didn't want to cover the torso guns) and use their ECM in Ghost Target mode to make the mech a bit less of a sitting duck.

In this role, they succeeded brilliantly. Between them and similar support from a Doloire, I was able to negate the bonus to-hit modifier for shooting at superheavy mechs, and sometimes even give the Ares a net +1 to be shot. Maybe it was just the way the dice were that day, but the number of shots that missed the Ares solely because of the ECM modifier was insane, edging up towards 100 points of damage blocked over the course of the game, including at least a couple iHGR shots. Definitely a good return on only having spent 74 BV to bring those guys.

It should be noted that this duty was extremely dangerous, because the range-0 radius of their ECM meant the Nighthawks had to stay in the same hex as the Ares at all times. This not only meant they couldn't stick to the cover of woods or buildings, but the low speed of the mech meant they often couldn't jump the three hexes they needed to build their own full TMM. They were eventually destroyed when my opponent realized just how much of an effect the little bastards were having, though the amount of firepower he needed to use was again completely disproportionate to their technical worth: he ended up having to alpha strike a Marauder into them twice before the last trooper fell. :o

TL;DR - 11/10, would definitely take into battle again. :thumbsup:
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"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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Daryk

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #63 on: 23 August 2021, 09:07:36 »
Cool!  Be prepared for AOE weapons the next time you face that opponent, though...

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #64 on: 23 August 2021, 09:14:10 »
Oh, definitely. :)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #65 on: 23 August 2021, 09:28:03 »
MegaMek seems to rarely give me a Ghost Target bonus so a bit surprised you got it to work so well.

Did you just use 1 BA stand?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #66 on: 23 August 2021, 10:40:19 »
Just the one, yes. Didn't have the spare BV for more, and I didn't want to go full cheese with the ECM anyway. I find that advanced options like Ghost Targets are best deployed in moderation, lest going all out completely swamps the opposition and sours them on allowing it in games.
My wife writes books
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"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #67 on: 23 August 2021, 10:56:53 »
I did not think the Nighthawk had high BV, and having a pair leaping back and forth keeps their mods up.  But I guess that Superheavy sucks up most the BV.

Is the AM skill used to determine the TH rolls?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #68 on: 23 August 2021, 10:58:59 »
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing! In AS it does not work like that, but it is very interesting indeed. And a great ROI!

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #69 on: 23 August 2021, 11:16:54 »
I did not think the Nighthawk had high BV, and having a pair leaping back and forth keeps their mods up.  But I guess that Superheavy sucks up most the BV.

Is the AM skill used to determine the TH rolls?

It does not say, but given that AM skill is used in every other situation where BA or infantry are called on to make a 'piloting' skill, it seemed like a safe assumption.

Really interesting. Thanks for sharing! In AS it does not work like that, but it is very interesting indeed. And a great ROI!

Yeah, I'm similarly sad that Ghost Targets aren't a thing in Alpha Strike, but it makes sense. The nature of AS is such that there will always be thing you can do in TW scale that cannot be done in Alpha Strike. You add too much, and it loses the simplicity and speed of play that is the hallmark of that system.
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"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Nighthawk PA(L)
« Reply #70 on: 23 August 2021, 18:41:34 »
I did not think the Nighthawk had high BV, and having a pair leaping back and forth keeps their mods up.  But I guess that Superheavy sucks up most the BV.

Is the AM skill used to determine the TH rolls?
Xotl made a ruling about that a few years ago. Anti-Mech Skill it is.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/tactical-operations/answered-ghost-targets-from-battle-armour/msg1546258/#msg1546258