Crusader-Warden political spectrum - Who goes where?

[The Wobbly Guy]

We've been hearing about rabid crusaders, staunch wardens, moderates, fence-sitters forever, but what do these really mean?

Let's take the below spectrum:
Extreme Crusader - moderate Crusader - fence sitter - moderate Warden - Extreme Warden

Who goes where?

Note 1: I'm not talking about clans as a whole. Let's put characters on this spectrum, and why they should be whatever they are. What differentiates an Extreme Crusader from a Moderate Crusader?

Note 2: As mentioned before elsewhere, the Crusader-Warden split has nothing to do with the conservative (less civilian rights)-liberal(more civilian rights) split. We know there are conservative Wardens (Coyotes) and liberal Crusaders (Blood Spirit?).

Note 3: I tried searching the boards, but couldn't quite find what I need. So... have at it!

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Most extreme Wardens are Goliath Scorpions: Star League should be restored not by conquest but by educating misguided Spheroids

Most extreme Crusaders are Smoke Jaguars: Conquer everything first, then restore Star League. How? We'll worry about that later, conquest first

Everyone else is somewhere on the spectrum between those two

I don't think there were ever any real fence sitters, Snow Ravens were described like that but they were definitely Wardens. Just because they made money off Crusaders doesn't mean they weren't Wardens proven by the fact that they didn't invade anyone not even when they were exiled, they opted for softer approach instead

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

Falcons, Sea Foxes, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, Fire Mandrills all started off as Crusaders.

Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Sea Foxes all later switched to Warden.

[AlphaMirage]

I don't know if we can place enough characters to get a good differentiation between all the points of Warden vs Crusader although it might be an interesting Shrapnel story to cover the diplomacy and debate leading up to the Dragoon compromise from all points of view.

Vlad Ward is definitely in the probably 'Moderate Crusader' Camp. He was pretty extreme for the Warden Wolves but he's not quite Smoke Jaguar level. More like Jade Falcon and Marthe Pryde in most ways which is why they 'got along' so well.

I'd put most of the Steel Vipers in the Moderate Warden to Extreme Warden group. Yes they were an invader clan but previously they were pretty distant and isolationist while maintaining incredibly strict and domineering tendencies that were not quite Blood Spirit level but close. Their guiding philosophy was however more 'tough love' to bring the spheroid 'barbarians' into 'proper civilization' where they would understand their 'vision.' Those that went from Moderate to Warden-lite were probably Harvested into Wolf or Falcon.

That is compared to the Smoke Jaguars 'Rip and Tear' particularly among ilKhan Leo Showers and Khan Lincoln Osis, a philosophy that marked them as the most Extreme Crusaders. I still think the Inner Sphere should have taken the Falcons out with their Star League offensive but the Smoke Jaguars were definitely 'worse.'

[Alan Grant]

I'd put most of the Steel Vipers in the Moderate Warden to Extreme Warden group. Yes they were an invader clan but previously they were pretty distant and isolationist while maintaining incredibly strict and domineering tendencies that were not quite Blood Spirit level but close. Their guiding philosophy was however more 'tough love' to bring the spheroid 'barbarians' into 'proper civilization' where they would understand their 'vision.' Those that went from Moderate to Warden-lite were probably Harvested into Wolf or Falcon.

Actually FM: WC, page 138 tells us "indeed the attitudes of many individual Vipers warriors are indistinguishable from those of Crusader Clans; if asked they would express wholehearted support for the Crusader philosophy."

The same page tells us that the Viper mentality on this is first to crush the Inner Sphere military forces (this part feels very Crusader) but then to bring the Spheroids into the restoration of the Star League as participants.

Among individual Vipers, Era Report: 3052's major personas' section, shows us very clearly that Khan Natalie Breen was very much a keen follower of Sanra Mercer's vision and voted for Operation Revival with great reluctance. She saw the inclusion of true Crusader Clans in the invasion as complicating factors that would make it harder to enact Sanra Mercer's vision. So Natalie Breen tilted kinda Warden, though checking the "Follower of Sanra Mercer" box would be far more accurate.

By comparison, the same book tells us saKhan Perigard Zalman was following an agenda that closely aligned with mainstream Crusaders. (the book's wording)

The same book also gives us persona section on Galaxy Commander Christopher Ahmed, of Alpha Galaxy, introducing him as a leader of the Clan's Warden movement. Per Era Report: 3052, the Warden Vipers largely followed Sanra Mercer's vision but believed that the invasion was either coming too soon, or in some cases too late. After the Battle of Tukayyid things deteriorated fast for Christopher Ahmed and many of the Wardens, they were accused of "not fighting hard enough" in all the finger pointing within the Clan after the Battle of Tukayyid.

So there's a lot of nuances to the Vipers. Going into Operation Revival you have 3 key leaders, one a Sanra Mercer follower (who wants to invade the Inner Sphere, just wants the Vipers to lead it and not allow the mainstream Crusaders to screw up Mercer's vision), one a mainstream Crusader, and one a Warden.

But I would never regard the Vipers as a Clan as "Extreme Wardens" and even moderate Wardens doesn't sound right for the majority of the rank and file given what FM: WC tells us. To the Vipers the first step was always "crush the Inner Sphere military" and that put them in lock-step with the Crusaders through at least that much. It was what to do AFTER that where their differences lie.

The Vipers generally read like: Stage 1: The Conquest of the Inner Sphere and the crushing of their military (we are Crusaders!), Stage 2: Restoration of the Star League shall proceed with the Spheroids as participants and partners (We are Wardens now!).

EDIT: Of course I got off on a bit of a tangent there from what the original poster wants. He's focusing on individuals, not Clans. So there is at least some info on 3 very different Steel Vipers.

[BrianDavion]

and even "educate the inner sphere denzins so they willingly accept the clan way" isn't THAT differant from what any other crusader clan would do, at least the crusader clans with the leadership to think about step 2.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Ehhh... can we stop looking at clans and focus on specific characters?

Let's take Vlad, who's a good starting point. He's a Moderate Crusader, while Lincoln Osis is an Extreme Crusader. How are their views different? They both want to restore the Star League with the clans in charge.

[Alan Grant]

I'm very curious, why are you calling Vlad a moderate Crusader? What about his views are more moderate than Lincoln Osis?

I distinctly remember in the same book depicting the Refusal War, Ulric Kerensky had Vlad close and at one point they were speaking. Vlad told Ulric if Ulric died and if Vlad became Khan, he would take the Clan all the way to Terra. Ulric's response (I'm paraphrasing) was sort of like "it's best if you stay with me." (I always felt like he meant, best if you died with me, then, since that's your attitude)

If you are going by things like Turtle Bay, and their brutal crackdowns of all Spheroid rebellious activity, then it's important to remember the Smoke Jaguars treated everyone that way. They were brutal to their own lower castes and crushed rebellions with overwhelming military force. They had a long history of this that pre-dates Operation Revival.

That was just Smoke Jag policing 101. Not really political attitude in regard to the whole Crusader/Warden thing. Had Turtle Bay been a Clan Homeworld enclave that was in full lower caste rebellion, they might have handled it much the same way.

In truth I don't think there was that much difference between Vlad and Lincoln Osis in terms of being an aggressive Crusader. Vlad's attitudes were just shaped by being a Wolf, and Osis's attitudes were shaped by being a Smoke Jaguar. Each Clan had different conceptualizations of how you ruled the lower castes and that played a role in how they tried to treat the Spheroids. The Wolves allowed their lower castes more freedoms and individual liberties. They seem to be a bit more moderate in their willingness to run over a group of protesters with 'mechs. The Smoke Jaguars allowed their lower castes almost no individual liberties or freedoms and were more heavy-handed with military force to brutally resolve resistance or protest, even if that meant mass civilian casualties. Both allowed their existing policies to somewhat guide their policies for how they would treat their Spheroid populations in their respective Clan OZ.

EDIT: I should add (having mulled this over for a moment), maybe that is the point. Maybe the differential between moderate or extreme pertains to how the Spheroids will be treated. How sternly and strictly they'll be expected to adopt Clan norms and codes of conduct, and how harshly they'll be treated if they misbehave. I may have come full circle on this. This is kinda aimed at your original post's Note 2. But if that's the case, then in my eyes, how they treat the Spheroids actually has a lot to do with what level of extreme Crusader the individual is.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Finally a bit of clarity!

I like the point about how they would treat their new Inner Sphere holdings. Conservative or liberal, what's the level of punishment if they step out of line.

Smoke Jaguars like Paul Moon and Jez Howell used harsh punitive measures, and we know this from Exodus Road. So these two are probably Extreme Crusaders. Trent wanted more leniency, so he's a moderate. Most Crusaders are probably moderates, but there are some in each clan who are extremists, and the Jags had more than most, and in positions of authority and power.

And of course, one could probably label Malvina Hazen as the most Extreme Crusader of all time, while Alaric Ward is still a moderate. Even if the Crusader/Warden split no longer mattered by the Dark Age.

Righto, we've seen the Crusader side.

How about the Wardens? What separates a moderate Warden from an Extreme Warden? Is there even such a thing as an Extreme Warden?

[Minemech]

 I would argue that there are so many layers of separation between the Clan warrior caste and actual civilians that the caste simply wants to avoid embarrassments like Turtle Bay, they otherwise do not even know or are really capable of comprehending the effects of Clan policies on civilians. The Jade Phoenix Trilogy somewhat brings this out. Clan warriors are notoriously poor at abstract thought or practical governance, which is why Prince Ragnar had such a potent effect on the Bears.

[Alan Grant]

Honestly Warden has even more degrees because that camp is actually a coalition of different beliefs going on.

Pre-WoR

-As Fire Scorpion IIC pointed out, the Scorpions are about recreating the Star League through relics and rediscovery of the past, and teaching the misguided Spheroids about the past.

-The Cloud Cobras, willing to hold the Babylon Diets and bring religious Spheroids to the Clan Homeworlds and treat them like honored guests. Within the Cobras you also have the Anasaz Cloister, who are both Wardens and strong isolationists. We also have the Tongo Cloister, Wardens who want to bring no more war to the universe than necessary. That gets balanced out by some of the Crusader-oriented Cloisters.

-Clan Wolf-in-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, we'll stand with the Inner Sphere AGAINST the Clans. That's Extreme, probably as Extreme as it gets. In the eyes of the Clans you've become traitors to your own people. Most Wardens weren't willing to go that far. To take up arms against the Clans in defense of the Inner Sphere.

-Diamond Sharks, Snow Ravens- We want to move to the Inner Sphere, and do business with them and work with the Spheroids. Not conquer them, establish a new home and reestablish our Clan within the Inner Sphere.

And yes, I know I'm back to talking about Clans and not individuals, which isn't what you are looking for. But in most cases that's just where the bulk of our canon information is found. Furthermore, at the moment it seems like it's more important to define these degrees of difference first. So when someone says "moderate" or "extreme" we actually are using well-defined terminology. To develop the vocabulary. To do that you gotta look to what canon sources give us and that mostly comes in the form of Clan info.

[Hellraiser]

How about the Wardens? What separates a moderate Warden from an Extreme Warden? Is there even such a thing as an Extreme Warden?

-Clan Wolf-in-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, we'll stand with the Inner Sphere AGAINST the Clans. That's Extreme, probably as Extreme as it gets. In the eyes of the Clans you've become traitors to your own people. Most Wardens weren't willing to go that far. To take up arms against the Clans in defense of the Inner Sphere.

Nailed it.

Ulric, was an Extreme-Warden.
He didn't support the invasion & actively let his partners screw up so they looked bad.
He found support in Phelan & Natasha who had lived in the IS for a long time making them Extreme Wardens.

Each was willing to square up with the Crusader mindset & declare it wrong & then go about backing that up with skill in combat.

[The Wobbly Guy]

I think I got some further clarity - why does a Extreme Crusader hold different beliefs from a moderate?

The Extreme Crusader believes the Inner Sphere is a cesspit of barbarity (ironic, I know) and the only way to rebuild the Star League is to completely break the locals to their will. For this reason, Extreme Crusaders do not take bondsmen from the Inner Sphere.

The moderate Crusader recognises that the Inner Sphere has some things going for it, and are more willing to seek out middle ground and compromise to a certain extent. They're ok with taking bondsmen.

The extreme Wardens feel the Inner Sphere has many unique features and is willing to go against the rest of the Clans to defend the Inner Sphere way of life, even if they don't subscribe to it themselves. They're okay with bondsmen, even former mercs (e.g. Phelan).

The moderate Wardens? I need ideas for this.

[Cannonshop]

I think I got some further clarity - why does a Extreme Crusader hold different beliefs from a moderate?

The Extreme Crusader believes the Inner Sphere is a cesspit of barbarity (ironic, I know) and the only way to rebuild the Star League is to completely break the locals to their will. For this reason, Extreme Crusaders do not take bondsmen from the Inner Sphere.

The moderate Crusader recognises that the Inner Sphere has some things going for it, and are more willing to seek out middle ground and compromise to a certain extent. They're ok with taking bondsmen.

The extreme Wardens feel the Inner Sphere has many unique features and is willing to go against the rest of the Clans to defend the Inner Sphere way of life, even if they don't subscribe to it themselves. They're okay with bondsmen, even former mercs (e.g. Phelan).

The moderate Wardens? I need ideas for this.

The Warden philosophy is actually pretty much isolationist.  "We want to Stay Out of It".  Clans that chose NOT to compete for an invasion slot, or who still opposed the invasion vote.

but not all of those, even, because there are the Star Adders-who didn't push to join Revival, because they could count, while Ulric's wolves (Wardens) were the only ones who bothered to think "You know, it's a long trip, we should probably have a working supply line and bring enough consumables."

To me, the Warden/Crusader divide isn't what they pretend it was, it's more about who's got fatal levels of toxic optimism about the practicalities of launching an invasion with insufficient numbers of troops and no steady supply line.

IOW Tactical thinkers that are strategically blind.

(Great, even overwhelming in a fight-until they run out of ammo.)

teh real problem is that we never got to see any Wardens or Crusaders who could actually articulate their philosophy as a Philosophy.  The Crusaders wanted resources, the Wardens wanted them too.

This really wasn't expressed well when it was relevant-Ulric opposed the invasion, sure, but he ran it very practically compared to his peers-almost a third grade understanding of the logistics of expeditionary warfare. ("Look! Clan Wolf recognizes they need spare parts and ammo!!")

none of the actual, by name Crusaders actually recognized this basic fact. So how does that happen?

Clan society is full of Duellists.  That is how you make and keep rank, it's how you're measured, the more extreme Clans (Smoke Jaguar) embody this.  Duellists fight arranged, limited engagements superbly.  They don't handle sustained warfare real well.

and all the Crusaders in Operation Revival had that basic handicap...except Vlad, who recognized that working supply lines are a good thing to have., and that the enemy isn't going to play your ball-game if they don't have to.

Thus, he gets the "Moderate Crusader" tag-not because of his goals, but because he's a realist about how to achieve them (well, for a Clanner).

Same way, Ulric isn't an Extreme Warden...we didn't get to meet any who were.  He was a moderate because he recognized that he had to be practical in reaching his goals, and was pragmatic enough to handle a job he fundamentally disagreed with.

an Extremist wouldn't have done that.  wouldn't have thought about supply lines, or brought occupation forces to secure gains, they wouldn't have had any focus beyond 'make the mission fail'.

because they're extreme.

Pragmatism is a mark of Moderation.  There are no practical extremists, (though a cynical pragmatic will use-and discard-extreme rhetoric if it works to their objectives.)

The moderate takes as realistic a view of conditions as their culture will allow-they'll accept conditions they do not approve of, and seek to be successful, even in tasks they personally disagree with.  An Extremist personality will outright deny reality if it clashes with their ideals...they will also adopt a 'by any means ncessary' because 'The ends justify the Means'.

a moderate understands that the means you use, decide what ends you have to deal with next.  They'll bring supply columns and estimate their personnel needs not based on the most optimistic projections, but on pessimistic analysis, they plan to adapt to losses and plan to use strategies to reduce those losses, and they never assume the other guy is going to give them favorable treatment or adhere to their particular cultural hangups.

we didn't get to meet any extreme wardens, because they don't exist-the martial culture of the Clans as a whole simply doesn't allow for that to take root.

The divide isn't between 'warden' and 'Crusader', it's between 'Realist' and 'Idealist'.

[Cannonshop]

big speech done...now the breakdown;

Clan Jade Falcon (up to sometime before Malvina): Moderate crusader.  This is why they were successful-they began with an idealized view, but didn't stick to it.  Elias Crichell used Extreme rhetoric, but hedged his bets and acknowledged that the enemy has a say too-unlike Leo Showers or Lincoln Osis, Crichell actually recognized that he'd need more than a short division's worth of forces to hold whatever he took, and made steps to deal with supply issues.  the Falcons also were among the lighter hands when it came to occupation tactics because they recognized their fundamental manpower shortage.

Moderate Crusader.

Clan Smoke Jaguar: Idealists.  Not in a nice way, but idealists.  They assumed ideal conditions would prevail, they underestimated not only their enemies, but their own difficulties, did not secure or construct a good pipeline for resupply, and used techniques that REQUIRE lots of manpower to make it work for their occupations.  (seriously, you need MORE guys the more you crush the peasants.)

Extreme Crusader.

Clan Steel Viper: nice thoughts, means well, complete idealists, underestimated not only what they'd need and what they'd run out of, but didn't put much effort into learning the conditions on the ground because they thought they already knew through whatsername's mystery book.

Extreme Crusader

Clan NovaCat: Moderate Crusader, flips to Warden after an ass-beating, but they were really very idealistic in their own way, and made the exact same mistakes their Crusader rivals and Brethren made when it came to things like a working supply line, sufficient manpower, and realistic objectives.  They get 'moderate' because they were hands-off on occupations and therefore didn't strain themselves to death pretending they were in the Homeworlds.

Moderate Crusader/Moderate Warden (depending on era).

Clan Diamond Shark: Moderate Crusader, shifting to moderately apolitical.  Ultimate expression of being pragmatic after a while, but they also misunderstood the job when they voted in favor of the invasion-but not so much that they ignored the idea that maybe one ought to have a working supply line.

Moderate/Apolitical

Clan Ghost Bear: Moderate Crusader.  Even after their 'warden flip' they're still trying to restore the Star League, with the very pragmatic view of "Hey, if we can get them to like us, we don't have to fight them all the time and we can focus on the REAL enemy!"  They began with the Crusader idealism that left them short of supplies, but they used smart occupation methods to minimize the problem.  This, of course, got them 'warden' as an official camp, but the Bears are very MODERATE-which is how and why they're successful.

Moderate.

[Alan Grant]

Eh... sorry I don't think bondsman is a good enough metric either. Because some Clans just don't have freeborn warriors and don't take bondsmen for THAT reason. Truthfully, I regard the Falcons and Jaguars as being similar in their level of devotion to the Crusader cause. But one is ok with freeborn warriors and one is not. So one took Spheroids as bondsman, and one (mostly) didn't.


For me the breakdown looks something like this:


Crusaders


Extreme Crusader (sometimes the expression "fanatical" or "aggressive Crusader" appears in canon text): We want to tear down the Spheroid way of life. We want to tear down their governments, societal structures, all of it. We will strip them of surnames. We will strive to organize them into castes. They will be assimilated into the Clan Way and accept our rule. Or they will be punished. This is a conquest, pure and simple. They have a matter of days/months to comply. We will also bring our lower castes into the Inner Sphere and they will live on the paradise worlds of the Inner Sphere and also help us rule over the Spheroids.

     Extreme Crusader Clans: Smoke Jaguars, Jade Falcons, the most aggressive Diamond Sharks in 3050 under Khan Ian Hawker, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Fire Mandrill's Crusader Kindraa. All Homeworld Clanners adhering to the Aggressor philosophy after the Wars of Reaving.

Moderate Crusader: We want them to obey our rule now. Changing them to the Clan Way will take time, so we are prepared to try to do it in stages rather than overnight. It might even take generations to achieve their assimilation. If we run into too much resistance, we might make adjustments to our plans in order to build a favorable relationship with our Spheroids. We don't want them to all rise up in rebellion at once, so we're prepared to be patient about this. We will also bring our lower castes into the Inner Sphere, and they will live better lives for it, working alongside their Spheroid counterparts will be a challenge, but the Inner Sphere is a paradise compared to the Homeworlds.

     Moderate Crusader Clans: Hell's Horses, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers Crusaders in 3050. Crusader Wolves after the Refusal War, probably the Star Adders. Clan Cloud Cobra (the Crusader-oriented Cloisters)

Isolationist Crusader: The Inner Sphere is a threat, a contamination of the Clan Way. We should remain separate from them.

     Isolationist Crusader Clans: The Homeworld Clans, those adhering to the Bastion philosophy after the Wars of Reaving. EDIT: Moved Clan Blood Spirit here


Wardens


Moderate Warden: We think the Inner Sphere needs our protection. Now or at some point. We'd like to work with them to restore the Star League or at least to build a better future. That would be nice, if we all worked together toward the same goals right? We don't want to enforce our will upon them. We want to work with them toward a better future. We believe that Kerensky meant for us to be protectors of the Inner Sphere.

     Moderate Warden Clans: Ghost Bears after 3054, Clan Cloud Cobra (Tongo Cloister, some others), Clan Snow Raven, Clan Diamond Shark (after Ian Hawker's influence fades/Clan Sea Fox, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Steel Vipers (Wardens and those following Sanra Mercer's vision)

Isolationist Warden: We don't think Kerensky ever meant for the Clans to tread on Inner Sphere soil again, we think we should remain separate and apart. If push came to shove, we would come to their aid, perhaps.

     Isolationist Warden Clans: Anasaz Cloister (Clan Cloud Cobra), Clan Fire Mandrill Warden Kindraa, Steel Viper Wardens, Clan Wolf in 3050, Clan Coyote

Extreme Warden: We will defend the Inner Sphere from all threats today, even from other Clans. Let them call us traitors, we don't care.

     Extreme Warden Clans: Clan Wolf-In-Exile, Clan Nova Cat, those who join the Republic of the Sphere after the Jihad

[BrianDavion]

.... Wow Cannonship did you read the same material I did? Because there's no way you can and claim with a straight face that Vald Ward was at the forefront of logistics.
the wolves where literally the last clan in the inner sphere to begin shifting production to the Inner Sphere, and thus lack of forward thinking hurt them

[Cannonshop]

.... Wow Cannonship did you read the same material I did? Because there's no way you can and claim with a straight face that Vald Ward was at the forefront of logistics.
the wolves where literally the last clan in the inner sphere to begin shifting production to the Inner Sphere, and thus lack of forward thinking hurt them

Brian, Vlad had to start from pretty close to nothing, and Ulric took most of the lower caste they brought and sent them with Phelan, it takes TIME to get that stuff moving again.  On the other hand, Vlad's forces weren't starved for spares and ammo, while the Falcons, Vipers, Bears, all the clans who put up factories in their OZ's absolutely were.

aside from just saying "Yah, but Mike Stackpole loved the wolves so he magicked it in without explanation and we should just go with it"  the more pleasant option is to explain their still having ammo, spare parts, 'mechs, fighters, fuel for their ships and so on, is that they had a supply column going from the homeworlds and it was actually well run *and thus they didn't NEED to put up local factories for a while.

Basically, Vlad understood enough about logistics, that he didn't immediately race off to leave his supply columns struggling to catch up-he didn't overextend as soon as he was in charge...something most of his contemporaries did frequently when you read "Invading Clans", "Crusader Clans", "Warden Clans", "Warriors of Kerensky" and the novels.

[Hellraiser]

Vlad was only in charge after the Refusal losses & was dealing w/ Falcons, Bears, Horses, & Hellions all itching for action.

While I don't agree with it, I do see why we didn't see massive movement in the late 50's.

And prior to 56, Ulric had all of 4 years to look at potential upgrade locations.

Finally the Wolves were stuck w/ the LEAST Developed/Defended/Prestigious OZ as "punishment" by the Jag IlKhan originally.

Unlike the Falcons, they didn't inherit some huge industrial worlds.

They also didn't have a secret plan to migrate to the IS like the Bears did & their homeworlds holdings were semi-safe.

Most of their factory locations were newer & smaller & semi-dismantled by the FRR.

While I'm not "happy" about it, I can actually see why they didn't get a lot up & running quickly.

By the time Vlad had been in office a while & had rebuilt the Touman even a small amount, the FCCW had broken out, there was the Falcon Incursion going on that he jumped in on, & then the Jihad broke out.

Now, all that said, it would have been nice to see the Wolves have some sort of early movement seeing as how they were the leaders of Op:Revival in the best position.
Not saying they should have moved everything but some fluff about a FRR factory being the first one converted in say 3055 might have been nice for even 1 line being operational & then having to curb their expansion once 57 rolls around.

[Metallgewitter]

It also seems that the wolves never thought of really upgrading their OZ. Per Wars of Reaving even in 3067 they got huge supply convoys full of material from the homeworlds. Meanwhile the Falcons and Bears took the opportunity to use the industry that was there while also upgrading it which was for both a painful process. Heck the Turkina TRO hints that Falcon trueborn refused to pilot a Sudeten-build Turkinas and rather waited for Ironhold-build ones. And while you can argue that the Wolves had a rather "deindustrialized" zone they had planets like Rasalhague, Tamar and other manufacturing sites under their wing. But they let them rot. Ulric might have been a visionary but he clearly forgot some other aspects in actually ruling the IS conquests.

On the divide: one might actually add if said Clans could see the real problems. For example the Jaguars had begun to feel a resource crunch right before Revival kicked off which was the ground for the development of the Protomech. So maybe it is less about Warden / Crusader but rather "Damn I want some of those fancy resources". some books give hints that the Is was like Eden for the Clans (or rather they thought the IS would be like that) so it might also be a case of "We need a reason to satisfy our greed so now we are Crusader" (roughly speaken) In that case the then Sharks like Barbara Sennet might then be rather extreme Crusaders

[tassa_kay]

Extreme Crusader Clans: Clan Blood Spirit

Gonna disagree with this one. The Blood Spirits didn't especially clamor for invasion (though they did participate in the REVIVAL Trials, pretty much every Clan did; only the Ravens and Adders didn't, and that's just because the Ravens didn't have the military strength to do so and the Adders withdrew when the other Clans refused their [wise] suggestion to invade collectively) and in fact have been pretty consistently adamant about their isolationism (they didn't even come out of their isolation until the Burrock Absorption).

There's also mention in the Spirits' FM:CC that Galaxy Commander Josh Kemp of Omicron Provisional Galaxy won his position by challenging his predecessor in a Trial of Grievance over that commander's attempts to convince the Khan that the Spirits should compete against the other Clans for a place in the invasion. While this conflicts with the later-published OTP: REVIVAL Trials, I still posit that this speaks volumes about the Spirits' general stance on the subject.

They clearly and unequivocally fall into your Isolationist Crusader Clans category.

Sharks like Barbara Sennet might then be rather extreme Crusaders

Absolutely not. Barbara Sennet in fact steered her Clan away from Ian Hawker's extremist Crusader stance. It's literally one of the most notable things about her.

[Alan Grant]

That's fair, I was having trouble finding canon material that clarified the Blood Spirit viewpoint. I missed that paragraph on Josh Kemp and I agree that it certainly adds some nuance to the Spirit mindset on the Crusader cause. Thanks Tassa.

[Church14]

Moderate Crusader Clans: Hell's Horses, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers Crusaders in 3050. Crusader Wolves after the Refusal War, probably the Star Adders. Clan Cloud Cobra (the Crusader-oriented Cloisters)

Are we considering what they said they believe in or what their actions?
Wolf self-description before Refusal => mixed leaning warden
Wolf self-description post refusal => moderate Crusader

Wolf actions from 3050 onwards => extremist Crusader.

They took the most worlds, attacked earlier during invasion waves, came closest to Terra. Then never adapted or reached out to the civilians of their holdings. They excised their warden elements out. Come dark ages, they formed the Empire partially so they could be closer to Terra. Their way of leading the Empire was “tempered” to make spheroid adjustment to their rule easier, which still involved them ruling with an iron fist and forcing the locals to comply 100% with their vision.

EDIT: Right. They were the only clan that said “no way. We won’t abide by the great refusal. We’ll see you after the truce.”


Also, Horses Suzerain approach kind of defies category here. They aren’t forcing anything from the locals. But still were working towards Terra.

[Alan Grant]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? Because they explain their actions, or rather Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky do.

Essentially the Clans agreed that the Wolves (being the Clan of the Kerensky's) would be part of the invasion no matter what. They didn't even have to compete in the Trials to decide which Clans would participate. They were by default going to be one of the Invading Clans.

Buried within that was a presumption that Operation Revival would succeed, that the Clans would take Terra.

From that point the Wolves decided the best way to play this was to win. To be the Clan that got to Terra first, and then they'd be in the ultimate position to decide how this would go from that point onward. At one point in one of those novels either Natasha or Ulric Kerensky tells Phelan Kell, then a bondsman, that if the Wolves got to Terra first, they'd be in a leadership position to dictate what happens now. If another Clan like the Smoke Jaguars got to Terra first, they'd basically just continue on burning down the entire Inner Sphere, past Terra. They'd be in a leadership position as the IlClan to continue to push the extreme Crusader agenda.

The Wolves didn't really have a choice, and playing slacker during the invasion didn't serve the Warden cause much either. So, they did the opposite.

Can we poke holes in that logic, especially with the benefit of hindsight? Sure, absolutely. But at the time they decided it was the path they would take and to some degree it made sense, at least to them. It is what it is. Naturally with those events so distant in the past and all of the flaws of the Clan intelligence and planning... it feels so obvious that Operation Revival wasn't going to work, that it would falter. But at the time, most Clans generally believed the Clans were going to pull this off and make it to Terra.

Then a few years later, Ulric Kerensky saw the Refusal War as a great way to gut the Crusader, which were agitating to somehow overturn 15-year treaty, and to gut both the Falcons and the growing Crusader movement within his own Clan. The surviving Warden Wolves obeyed their orders to head to Ark-Royal and join the Inner Sphere.

Post-Refusal War, Clan Wolf gets stood back up by Vlad Ward with the Crusaders in charge of the Clan, and absolutely everything about the Wolves changed. Most of what we think of as Clan Wolf's actions in the late 3050s-3080s at that point you gotta lay at the feet of the Crusaders, Vlad Ward etc.

So keep in mind, the Wolves wanted to take Terra first, for Warden reasons. To people like Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky the worlds in the Clans' path toward Terra were already casualties of all this. At the time they saw it was inevitable that one Clan would during Operation Revival. But they wanted to be the one to take a leadership role over the Clans and decide what would happen post-conquest of Terra.

[Metallgewitter]

The Ulric wolves probably also profited from the fact that the other invader Clans had taken setbacks against the "barbarians of the IS" (Twycross, Pandora, Wolcott) while the Wolves baiscally never lost a battle on their way. Though one could argue that Phelan helped and that the Wolves assaulted the "weakest" part of the IS. As Alan said the success of the Wolves gave them way more influence over the remaining Clans. Though they tried to chain him to their cause he outmaneuvered them in that regard. And the Wolves fair treatment of their captured populations at least rubbed of on the Bears when they began rethinking their treatment of captured Rasalhague planets and especially soldiers

[Church14]

Have you read the Blood of Kerensky trilogy? Because they explain their actions, or rather Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky do.

Essentially the Clans agreed that the Wolves (being the Clan of the Kerensky's) would be part of the invasion no matter what. They didn't even have to compete in the Trials to decide which Clans would participate. They were by default going to be one of the Invading Clans.

Buried within that was a presumption that Operation Revival would succeed, that the Clans would take Terra.

From that point the Wolves decided the best way to play this was to win. To be the Clan that got to Terra first, and then they'd be in the ultimate position to decide how this would go from that point onward. At one point in one of those novels either Natasha or Ulric Kerensky tells Phelan Kell, then a bondsman, that if the Wolves got to Terra first, they'd be in a leadership position to dictate what happens now. If another Clan like the Smoke Jaguars got to Terra first, they'd basically just continue on burning down the entire Inner Sphere, past Terra. They'd be in a leadership position as the IlClan to continue to push the extreme Crusader agenda.

The Wolves didn't really have a choice, and playing slacker during the invasion didn't serve the Warden cause much either. So, they did the opposite.

Can we poke holes in that logic, especially with the benefit of hindsight? Sure, absolutely. But at the time they decided it was the path they would take and to some degree it made sense, at least to them. It is what it is. Naturally with those events so distant in the past and all of the flaws of the Clan intelligence and planning... it feels so obvious that Operation Revival wasn't going to work, that it would falter. But at the time, most Clans generally believed the Clans were going to pull this off and make it to Terra.

Then a few years later, Ulric Kerensky saw the Refusal War as a great way to gut the Crusader, which were agitating to somehow overturn 15-year treaty, and to gut both the Falcons and the growing Crusader movement within his own Clan. The surviving Warden Wolves obeyed their orders to head to Ark-Royal and join the Inner Sphere.

Post-Refusal War, Clan Wolf gets stood back up by Vlad Ward with the Crusaders in charge of the Clan, and absolutely everything about the Wolves changed. Most of what we think of as Clan Wolf's actions in the late 3050s-3080s at that point you gotta lay at the feet of the Crusaders, Vlad Ward etc.

So keep in mind, the Wolves wanted to take Terra first, for Warden reasons. To people like Ulric Kerensky and Natasha Kerensky the worlds in the Clans' path toward Terra were already casualties of all this. At the time they saw it was inevitable that one Clan would during Operation Revival. But they wanted to be the one to take a leadership role over the Clans and decide what would happen post-conquest of Terra.

Ive read BoK, yes. All of what you brought up is why I specified their self descriptions or their deeds. Step back and pretend you never had any Phelan or Ulrice Point of view. All we know is their actions. Their actions, from the day they set foot in the sphere, were those of diehard crusaders. They never accommodated the sphere. They never built a relationship with the sphere. They, at every turn, forced the spheroid populations into submission and into their way of life. Rather brutally too. At least for a while, they had Jaguars to look better than to not appear so awful. 

We know they were, laughable as the plot point is, forced to participate. They decided that if they must participate, then they would win the race to Terra to become ilclan first in order to run damage control. How do they do that? By being the most crusadery of the crusaders and beat them at being crusaders.

Not one ounce of their desire to be warden shows up in deed. Which is fine. We have the RasDom, Foxes, and Nova Cats as warden examples. So we get the Horses, Wolves, Falcons, and Ravens as crusaders long term.

[tassa_kay]

We have the RasDom, Foxes, and Nova Cats as warden examples. So we get the Horses, Wolves, Falcons, and Ravens as crusaders long term.

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

The Ravens were always Wardens (at least on paper), but opportunistically voted for Crusader policies because, well, they're also politicians and schemers. And despite their typical Clanner attitude about things, they didn't conquer the Outworlds populace outright, but worked with them and protected them from outside threats (FedSuns and especially the Combine), which is about as Warden as it gets. It's odd to me that they've chosen to stand with Alaric, especially now, and it doesn't really jive with any of their previously-established characterization.

This just underscores why the Crusader/Warden dynamic has become largely irrelevant and almost silly post-invasion. The Clans have only fragmented apart since REVIVAL, and certain recent writing decisions and heel turns have been very... abrupt and inconsistent, and very, very plot-driven as opposed to natural evolutions.

[Cannonshop]

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

The Ravens were always Wardens (at least on paper), but opportunistically voted for Crusader policies because, well, they're also politicians and schemers. And despite their typical Clanner attitude about things, they didn't conquer the Outworlds populace outright, but worked with them and protected them from outside threats (FedSuns and especially the Combine), which is about as Warden as it gets. It's odd to me that they've chosen to stand with Alaric, especially now, and it doesn't really jive with any of their previously-established characterization.

This just underscores why the Crusader/Warden dynamic has become largely irrelevant and almost silly post-invasion. The Clans have only fragmented apart since REVIVAL, and certain recent writing decisions and heel turns have been very... abrupt and inconsistent, and very, very plot-driven as opposed to natural evolutions.

They're measuring by behavior, not stated motivation.

I suppose it may be unpopular as a measure, but in general, you are what you do, not what you claim to do.  Intentions mean less than nothing if they are not expressed by actions.

in ACTION  Church14 is absolutely on-point.  The Horses, Ravens, and even Wolves act the conquering crusader regardless of what their dogmas, doctrines, internal monologues, or proclamations say-the Rhetoric is just Rhetoric, what you DO decides who you are-from a certain point of view.

Mind that I tend to hold that point of view myself.  I don't pretend to be moderate about it either.  an observer in the 31st or 32nd Century looking at the Conduct of the Hell's Horses, or the Snow Ravens, would say "Yeah, they're an Invading Clan and they're hostile to my way of life, personal freedom, and personal choice.  They are Crusaders."

That's the behaviour.

It doesn't and wouldn't matter two farts in a hurricane if they're loudly chanting Warden Rhetoric while doing what they've been doing-except, of course, to underscore their outright penetrating Hypocrisy to that outside observer.

It's your Deeds that Define you, not your words.

crap, I'm going to hell for this...

look at the Ravens, for a moment, as if you didn't have access to their internal monologues and didn't have omniscience.  They showed up in the Outworlds under a flag of truce, then took over. They've killed civilians in reprisals and they have not integrated into the nation they've parasitized.

What do you call that behavior?

Hell's Horses: same thing, only they conquered it from another conqueror instead of using manipulative diplomacy and enormous gunboats.

compare to how the Ghost Bears integrated into the Dominion.

compare the two.

what would a rational person who has only an outsider's viewpoint without the omniscience, determine?

[Church14]

But the Horses and Ravens aren't Crusaders. Well, not really. Maybe? Somewhat?

The Horses' leadership (specifically, Malavai Fletcher and his supporters) during the invasion years most certainly was, but the rank-and-file were Warden, and the Horses shifted to full-on Warden after his death. I would even go so far as to say that, despite their eleventh-hour decision to want to compete for ilClan, they were still acting like Wardens, taking a hands-off approach to their populace and (despite the recent novel completely ignoring this fact, one of that novel's most egregious flaws IMO) having good inter-caste relations.

That said, the Horses did certainly flirt with Crusader-ism again due to their forced alliance with Malvina, which muddies the waters for them a bit, and it doesn't look like Fulk Lassanerra is going to be an improvement in that area. But we have James Cobb 2.0 waiting in the wings (Peter Cobb is such an awful character, he's literally just the second coming of James Cobb), and they're already cleaning house quite a bit, so who the hell knows where they're going to end up?

Horses kind of feel like they check the Crusader box when someone is looking and then stop caring until the next inspection.

And I’ll concede on the ravens. I’m pretty bad with their lore

[tassa_kay]

snip

Leaving aside the somewhat-flawed take on the Horses and Ravens, I think an even more important flaw with this entire premise is conflating “Warden” with “nice guys who won’t conquer and force their way of life on their population”. Of course there’s a LOT of overlap, but the Venn diagram for this isn’t a circle. The Crusader/Warden divide was about whether or not the Clans would force the Star League on the Inner Sphere. It doesn’t say anywhere in the Warden philosophy that they wouldn’t conquer the Inner Sphere at all. If that were the case, why did pretty much all of the Warden Clans (except the Ravens and the Cobras) compete for a slot in REVIVAL? One could argue that the best way to protect the Inner Sphere from outside threats would be to conquer and rule it.

[Alan Grant]

Era Report: 3052 put it well, in the Clan Wolf section.

It says something like it turned out the idea of a reborn Star League wasn't what bothered the Clans. It was the idea of it happening without them (the Clans) at all.

Leo Showers had reframed the entire debate with his revelation of the Outbound Light finding Huntress. His argument was that it meant the Inner Sphere was a threat to the Clans (that they could find and attack the Clan Homeworlds). Furthermore, he argued that the Federated Commonwealth was headed toward the path of creating a new Star League all on its own.

It's very telling that every Clan (save Clan Wolf) voted to invade. Even all the Warden Clans (to be fair the Scorpion Khans, tired of all the invasion votes, flipped a coin, and the Cobras voted in favor of invasion but later backed out of the bidding for the right to be an invading Clan).

It's an important and striking moment where even the Wardens felt like they had no choice.

During this period, about 3048-3052 what was considered normal or traditional Warden beliefs was completely skewed. Leo Showers was telling them that they were in danger, either of being invaded by the Inner Sphere, or rendered completely purposeless. The Wardens had lost their center of gravity. Leo Showers did his work well. It wasn't until sometime after Tukayyid that the Wardens really began to find a new equilibrium.

On these forums we often talk about the Wars of Reaving era representing this odd madness that swept through the Homeworld Clans. Some people probably did feel genuinely terrified of being tainted by the Inner Sphere, others just took advantage. Something similar could be said for that period just prior to Operation Revival. They got swept up in the invasion madness. Alternately the spheroids were a threat that could amass an army that could invade the Homeworlds and resurrect the Star League themselves, yet also they were weak barbarians who would be conquered easily. The only way to reconcile what cannot be reconciled with facts is to chalk it up to emotion and groupthink and being led by an expert manipulator named Leo Showers.

What the Wardens were pre-3048 was something else. What the Wardens were post-Tukayyid was different too. What they were in 3048-3052 was kinda unique.

[Hellraiser]

It doesn’t say anywhere in the Warden philosophy that they wouldn’t conquer the Inner Sphere at all. If that were the case, why did pretty much all of the Warden Clans (except the Ravens and the Cobras) compete for a slot in REVIVAL? One could argue that the best way to protect the Inner Sphere from outside threats would be to conquer and rule it.

IIRC, The Warden Philosophy was to protect but not interfere w/ the IS.

As for why they wanted in, because when it was obvious that the Crusader philosophy had grown large enough to win the vote, they didn't want to be left behind.

In much the same way the Clans didn't want the IS uniting the SLDF w/o them, the Wardens didn't want the Crusaders doing it w/o them.

It's one thing to say.  We shouldn't go.  It's another thing to say "I'm staying" when everyone else is on the bus that is leaving & you'll be left behind.

[tassa_kay]

As for why they wanted in, because when it was obvious that the Crusader philosophy had grown large enough to win the vote, they didn't want to be left behind.

In much the same way the Clans didn't want the IS uniting the SLDF w/o them, the Wardens didn't want the Crusaders doing it w/o them.

It's one thing to say.  We shouldn't go.  It's another thing to say "I'm staying" when everyone else is on the bus that is leaving & you'll be left behind.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would they care about being left behind if they didn't want to go in the first place?

[Hellraiser]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would they care about being left behind if they didn't want to go in the first place?

You said it yourself.
The Wardens are still CLAN.
They thrive on combat & honor.
Just because they didn't want to smash the IS to pieces for funsies like the Crusaders doesn't mean they want to be left out of seeing the "paradise" they left behind or re-establishing the SL to its former glory.

Look at Ulric.  Biggest Warden of them all, and yet when "forced" to go & given the least defended path with smallest chance at "glory", he went & said, "yeah, well, I don't want to do this but I'm dang sure going to make sure you all don't muck it up & show you that I'm much better at it than you are".

[tassa_kay]

That still doesn’t make sense. The whole point of the Warden philosophy was that they didn’t want to invade or restore the Star League. Your premise suggests that the only difference between the two was about who did the invading and restoration, and that simply doesn’t jive with what we know about the Warden philosophy at all. They voted for the invasion because Leo Showers manipulated them into doing so by framing the Outbound Light incident and the state of affairs in the Inner Sphere to his own ends, and Ulric conducted the invasion and his Clan the way he did because he intended to halt the invasion altogether, not (just) to show up the Crusaders.

[The Wobbly Guy]

The Horses have been described as Wardens led by Crusaders back in 3060-ish, but when you think carefully about it, it just doesn't make sense.

1. Why would the rank-and-file warriors be Wardens? What, in their combined-arms philosophy, could possibly lead them to a Warden-ish understanding of their place in the universe? I've always felt the schtick of most Warden clans led them to that view, while the Crusaders tend to the martial side of affairs.

2. How could the rank-and-file Wardens lead to Crusaders in charge? The leaders would face constant scrutiny of their decisions at every turn.

[tassa_kay]

1. Why would the rank-and-file warriors be Wardens? What, in their combined-arms philosophy, could possibly lead them to a Warden-ish understanding of their place in the universe? I've always felt the schtick of most Warden clans led them to that view, while the Crusaders tend to the martial side of affairs.

What does their combined-arms philosophy have to do with their political stance on the subject of returning to the Inner Sphere? This doesn’t make sense to me. The Warden Clans weren’t any less martial than the Crusaders. The only real difference between the Crusaders and Wardens was the circumstances under which they would eventually return to the Inner Sphere: conquerors versus protectors. It’s literally why they’re called Crusaders and Wardens.

2. How could the rank-and-file Wardens lead to Crusaders in charge? The leaders would face constant scrutiny of their decisions at every turn.

Malavai Fletcher, one of the few Horses who did espouse the Crusader philosophy, was directly responsible for that. Per FM:CC, he was able to round up just enough support within his Clan to put them on the Crusader path. I’m sure the man who heroically and successfully led the defense of the Niles Industriplex from the hated Bears had plenty of political capital to spend with his warriors, on top of the great job Leo Showers did framing the state of the Inner Sphere the way he did.

[Metallgewitter]

I would say that the horses combined arms warfare also shows a more cooperative life within the Clan. They also uphold the value of civilians high especially the "protect civilans at all costs" philosophy. This is something that is usually more in line with the Wardens then with the Crusaders (except perhaps the Adders) But a Crusader leading a clan that is more in line with the Warden philosophy? That is not new per se. The Mandrills are perhaps the most extreme example where you have their kindras that can be either Warden or Crusader. and you see it in their cooperation too. during the Great Refusal trial the Mandrill force was made up out of Warden and Crusaders and they didn't cooperate well giving the Capellan Red Lancers the chance to defeat them handily (though that might also have been kindra rivalries)

[Nerroth]

I'm not entirely sure about the Goliath Scorpions.

On the one hand, the newly-minted zarKhan referred to the Scorpion Empire of 3151 as having Warden leanings. But on the other hand, the product which covered the conflict that led to her being inducted into the Clan in the first place was not called "Operational Turning Points: Hanseatic Warding"...

Plus, the difficulties which the Scorpions had both in consolidating the early Imperio in Nueva Castile, as well as the blood shed by Mu Galaxy on Tomalov in 3140, or by the Preserver faction in the following decade, show that the kind of difficulties traditionally assigned to the more militant Crusader Clans in terms of how badly they can interact with conquered freeborns were by no means absent for them either.

if anything, the post-Reaving Scorpions are more pragmatic in their approach - which, of course, they have to be, now that they are no longer part of the political ecosystem (such as it was) to be found in the pre-Reaving Homeworlds.

-----

For that matter, I might wonder about the Cloud Cobras.

Certainly, the half a million killed on Tanis in the wake of the initial conquest - who used no more than passive resistance techniques against their conquerors - and the fact that the Cobras had to be talked out of wiping out the Tanites in their entirety speaks to how their supposed beliefs clashed with the reality of how they operated outside of the relative isolation of the Homeworlds... long before the Wars of Reaving supposedly radicalized them.

But then, it's not clear as to whether or not the Cobras' approach towards the Tanite worlds was shaped by one Cloister or another. Did the more Warden-leaning Cloisters argue in favour of treating the Tanites with a lighter hand - or, in fact, were they equally culpable for what happened there?

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I'm not entirely sure about the Goliath Scorpions.

On the one hand, the newly-minted zarKhan referred to the Scorpion Empire of 3151 as having Warden leanings. But on the other hand, the product which covered the conflict that led to her being inducted into the Clan in the first place was not called "Operational Turning Points: Hanseatic Warding"...

Plus, the difficulties which the Scorpions had both in consolidating the early Imperio in Nueva Castile, as well as the blood shed by Mu Galaxy on Tomalov in 3140, or by the Preserver faction in the following decade, show that the kind of difficulties traditionally assigned to the more militant Crusader Clans in terms of how badly they can interact with conquered freeborns were by no means absent for them either.

if anything, the post-Reaving Scorpions are more pragmatic in their approach - which, of course, they have to be, now that they are no longer part of the political ecosystem (such as it was) to be found in the pre-Reaving Homeworlds.

-----
...........

War being called the Crusade is definitely just linguistic coincidence

Khan Kirov foresaw the conflict and considering how fond of symbolism Seekers are it makes sense that he worded it like that

Castilians would also be keenly aware of the same universal symbolism the word has and there's always the bonus benefit of trolling on actual Crusader Clans in giving the same name to your successful war as the one their shoddy and (at the time) failed ideology has

Even in 3152 Scorpions still dunk on Crusader Clans in political speeches, that says a lot

Difficulties in early years had less to do with malicious intent and more with Scorpions' complete lack of any regular political skills but this shortcoming was rectified over time (non-warriors pulled their weight here plus warriors who grew up in Imperio would adopt much friendlier view of local population down the road)

Mu Galaxy on Tomalov is super easy to explain: that entire Galaxy is a dumping ground for undisciplined meatheads, overly violent goons and entry point for Dark Caste recruits so them doing something excessively brutal is more than expected

Too violent by Clan standards, that's something right there

It speaks volumes of their reputation when you consider that the planet they were sent on (Tomalov) had no known major population centers and that discovery of such a large city came as a total surprise, cue Mu Galaxy doing something stupid

Even their own Khans knew that they should be kept away from civilians just in case

Preservers and Imperialists disagree on day to day societal issues of the Empire and how the nation should be run, neither of those would advocate for invading Terra, that matter has been settled centuries ago

[tassa_kay]

Wardens and Crusaders as philosophies are specifically regarding the Inner Sphere and the restoration of the Star League. Neither the Scorpions nor the Cobras have shown any real interest in these things for a long time now; Scorpions collecting old Star League toys doesn’t mean anything because they aren’t doing anything with that knowledge, and I’ve yet to see a single writer make it anything more than the quirky collector gimmick it’s always been.

The Scorpions and Cobras are no longer Wardens regardless, because Wardens don’t really exist anymore. The Scorpions have fallen into complete self-interest and semi-isolationism, and the Cobras are Bastions now and isolationist to a more extreme degree. The Warden philosophy died out a long time ago as the Clans have evolved and found their various places in the universe post-invasion/post-WoR.

As for the Cobras’ treatment of the Tanites, I don’t think that necessarily conflicts with them being Wardens. The Tanites aren’t part of the Warden mandate but are instead just some rando Deep Periphery colony, and no Clan deals particularly gently with resistance of a conquered populace that refuses to integrate into Clan society. Plus this was the Cobras’ first real experience with managing a conquered population since Klondike; them reacting poorly doesn’t surprise me at all.

[Metallgewitter]

I found something interesting in the Era Digest: Golden Century:

on page 4 it states:

No matter how they were treated, however, all the members of the Clans developed a hatred for the citizens of the Inner Sphere. Even if it was the hatred of the pitiful creatures inhabiting the former worlds of the Star League, it was still hatred. The worlds that the Clans resided on were habitable, but many only barely so. There was no established infrastruc-ture, nor centuries of knowledge of the flora and fauna of these lands. As the realities of the Inner Sphere faded away, its legend grew. Every planet was a Terra, equally lush and fertile as well as luxurious and modern. There was not pollution or difficulty on these worlds.
Even those who chafed under their Clan’s rule could agree that the vultures living on the corpse of the Star League were not worthy of such a blessing. These feelings would be channeled and shaped into the differing views of Wardens and Crusaders that we see today. Both agreed on the ends, with the Clans serving as the military of a new Star League and keeping it secure. It was the means that both would disagree upon.

So as some said, Wardens and Crusaders both wanted to go back to the IS and rule. Just the means were different.

[The Wobbly Guy]

I found something interesting in the Era Digest: Golden Century:

That's a very nice find! However, note that this was written in-character by the Hell's Horse Loremaster in 3081, so you may not find his narrative entirely convincing, because he may be shading the truth to justify his own clan's move to the IS.

We do know that some Wardens, especially Ulric and Natasha Kerensky, never wanted the clans to ever return to the IS.

Edit: And note that I wanted individuals who were somewhat representative of each position, not clans. We can probably put Lincoln Osis and Leo Showers on one end, Ulric Kerensky on the other, and then slot each character in between these extremes.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

......
So as some said, Wardens and Crusaders both wanted to go back to the IS and rule. Just the means were different.

Half the Wardens wanted to partner with the Inner Sphere, other half never wanted to go back to begin with bar some truly epic disaster

Are you talking about Crusaders here?

[Wasteland Warrior]

Wardens frequently claim their intention is to protect the Inner Sphere, but I often found myself asking, what exactly is it that they believed the Clans should be protecting the Sphere from? 

Nefarious Taurian schemers?  Um, wrong side of the Sphere fellas.
Rampant House Lord ambition?  Great job so far.
A full blown Tetatae invasion?  Ok, this miiight be why Khans doff the pelts of large, canary-devouring predators.
The discovery of a lost cache of Kerensky's greatest hits from his boy-band days?  Explains the Scorpions at least.

How many Kentares of blood would it take before the Wardens were prepared to conga line their Timber Wolves down good ol' Exodus Road for the betterment of humankind?

Another question that begged an answer was, how could they protect the Sphere from such a great distance with such poor monitoring?  Prior to the Dragoon compromise, they knew nothing of what was happening there.  Even with the Dragoons occasionally updating the denizens of Strana Mechty, the Clans only learned about the Davion - Steiner union by interrogating some unfortunate Comstar strays wandering out Huntress way.

Combining these 2 questions, there seemed to be only one logical answer ... the only threat the Wardens were monitoring were the Clans themselves. 

Some Wardens were rightly terrified at the idea of the Smoke Jaguars and their ilk being unleashed upon the Sphere.  Some of the more inciteful Wardens might have also been aware of how incompatible clan society itself had become with the cultures of the Inner Sphere - the Bears certainly benefitted from figuring this out.

While Ulric and Natasha certainly seemed to express at least some of these concerns, were all Wardens similarly motivated?  Were some 'Wardens' more interested in delaying the invasion until their own clan was in a more prominent position to influence the final outcome? The Steel Vipers seemed keen to return, but were concerned that their vision of the Star League would be lost given the influence of powerful rivals.  Were some Wardens just happy to hang on the Penta-worlds and let the Spheroids fend for themselves?

Similarly what motivated the various Crusaders?  Power lust?  Pride?  A genuine desire to protect ironically coupled with the belief that indiscriminately sweeping all resistance aside was a necessary evil?  Backing political allies?  A fear of being left behind in the Penta-worlds with only Mandrill Kindraa for company?

And perhaps that's the real measure of the Crusader-Warden political spectrum?  What really pushed the various Khans and their clans into either Warden or Crusader factions and how deep was that commitment?  It seems, after all, that a little Smoke Jag twist on the news that two Great Houses were buddying up was sufficient to panic them all (except Ulric's Wolves) into embracing the Crusader camp's agenda ... even if only briefly.

[Alan Grant]

Wobbly Guy is probably getting annoyed at this point. He's trying to focus the question on individuals, and we can't get past the conceptual Crusader/Warden thing, or perhaps Clan level.

I've contributed to that and I'm sorry.

I thought what we needed to do was to settle/resolve those questions at that level first. I'm starting to think that was wrong. There are just so many interpretations. It's very akin to trying to define someone's religion or belief system. While there might be some generalizations you can make, you can ask two different people of the same religion/belief system what they believe, and hear two very different answers.

On top of all that you add the layer of politics and that adds a whole other element. History is full of people who acted not in accordance with their value system, because as leaders (due to political realities, or the crisis/circumstances of the day) they take actions that don't fit in well with their value systems.

We have entire theories of human behavior that cover how human beings engage in actions that don't fit their beliefs or perceived image of themselves, and how they then might change their actions or change their beliefs or justify what they do.

The Clans are no different, and that's a big part of what makes this so hard for individuals. We're usually talking about leaders, military leaders and political leaders. That means they don't get to act in ways that perfectly align with their value system all the time. There are external pressures, internal pressures. They might take into consideration the views of their allies and supporters. What they want to do that aligns perfectly with their values may just be politically impossible or literally impossible due to the strategic situation of the Clan. 

So when you look at an individual Clanner in Battletech, quite often unless the universe directly tells us what they believe someway/somehow (through dialogue and internal monologue for example), when you combine all their actions and deeds and words, you discovery plenty of contradictory things.

[Cannonshop]

Wobbly Guy is probably getting annoyed at this point. He's trying to focus the question on individuals, and we can't get past the conceptual Crusader/Warden thing, or perhaps Clan level.

I've contributed to that and I'm sorry.

I thought what we needed to do was to settle/resolve those questions at that level first. I'm starting to think that was wrong. There are just so many interpretations. It's very akin to trying to define someone's religion or belief system. While there might be some generalizations you can make, you can ask two different people of the same religion/belief system what they believe, and hear two very different answers.

On top of all that you add the layer of politics and that adds a whole other element. History is full of people who acted not in accordance with their value system, because as leaders (due to political realities, or the crisis/circumstances of the day) they take actions that don't fit in well with their value systems.

We have entire theories of human behavior that cover how human beings engage in actions that don't fit their beliefs or perceived image of themselves, and how they then might change their actions or change their beliefs or justify what they do.

The Clans are no different, and that's a big part of what makes this so hard for individuals. We're usually talking about leaders, military leaders and political leaders. That means they don't get to act in ways that perfectly align with their value system all the time. There are external pressures, internal pressures. They might take into consideration the views of their allies and supporters. What they want to do that aligns perfectly with their values may just be politically impossible or literally impossible due to the strategic situation of the Clan. 

So when you look at an individual Clanner in Battletech, quite often unless the universe directly tells us what they believe someway/somehow (through dialogue and internal monologue for example), when you combine all their actions and deeds and words, you discovery plenty of contradictory things.

often the problem with individuals is, we never really see any individuals who don't conform to the stereotype of their clan that is being presented, and those that do, are dressed out specifically to do that.

In other words, we don't really get to meet enough individuals, to make individuals worthy of noting, and those that we do meet, are already categorized for us as iconoclasts.

The problem, is stereotypes, our stereotypes are made for us, and the writers did a good job of keeping TO those stereotypes.

How does this impact the answers here? all of our stereotypes about the clans as Clans, or as a whole, come to us through the characterization, (when it's not baldly planted in the sourcebook).

You will never meet a Warden Jade Falcon, though it is implied such a beast existed at one point-the closest you will get is Aiden Pryde.  while there clearly ARE Crusader Wolves (Conal and Vlad), they're marked out as being 'different' from the more mainstream characters in Phelan Kell's story, or Wolf's Dragoons.

Lincoln Osis was more or less a milder caricature, and Leo Showers was so caricatured there was no 'character' at all, really, like a villain from a mid-sixties comic book written under the Comics Code, he was so extreem he practically reeked of failure, as did his Clan.

Thus we as an audience keep reverting back to either trying to undermine the stereotypes, or champion them, but the OP's question really hasn't got enough material we can use, to generate an interesting character discussion-at least, not across such a broad selection.

It's not a defect.  Named Characters being stereotypical, or stereotypically iconoclastic, is a feature, not a bug-it lets players and participants in the fandom come up with their own stories, their own interpretations, it helps keep this setting participant Friendly for the audience, and it's a strength of the setting and the product line to do that.

that room to breathe, to come up with your own interpretation, it strengthens the game by inviting the audience members to be a part of it-if only in their own local group, or on an online forum.

This helps keep the game and setting alive through multiple generations of players.\

but it does mean discussions like this get derailed almost immediately.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Wardens frequently claim their intention is to protect the Inner Sphere, but I often found myself asking, what exactly is it that they believed the Clans should be protecting the Sphere from?

This is starting to feel like argument for the sake of argument

We have it in print that Wardens want to protect the Inner Sphere from external threat

The main reason why Crusaders went from fringe movement to mainstream ideology is because Wardens were not able to specify EXACTLY what that external threat would be

...How many Kentares of blood would it take before the Wardens were prepared to conga line their Timber Wolves down good ol' Exodus Road for the betterment of humankind?

This is straight up expecting Wardens to fix human condition, something they never planned to do nor claimed to be able to do

Besides when Smoke Jaguars rolled in and started (accidentally) stomping those responsible for Kentares entire valiant Inner Sphere united in the effort to preserve their right to Kentares innocent people

I do wonder if we will ever get the story about how people of Kentares reacted to the fact that Hanse sided with their butchers instead of letting Jaguars soften them up before scooping up remains

If I were from Kentares I would have been mighty peeved at the Fox

....Some of the more inciteful Wardens might have also been aware of how incompatible clan society itself had become with the cultures of the Inner Sphere...

But we do know that they are compatible

All it takes is some planning, patience and effort, we also have that in print

[tassa_kay]

This is starting to feel like argument for the sake of argument

We have it in print that Wardens want to protect the Inner Sphere from external threat

The main reason why Crusaders went from fringe movement to mainstream ideology is because Wardens were not able to specify EXACTLY what that external threat would be

It feels a bit disingenuous to say “this is arguing for the sake of argument, read the books” to an honest question, and then completely skip over the next portion of what he was asking and miss vital context: how were the Wardens acting as Wardens when they weren’t doing anything to further that goal and being content to live in complete isolation and ignorance? How can they, y’know, ward if they don’t know if the Inner Sphere is facing any threats? The Dragoon Compromise, the only real effort to actually find out what was going on in the Inner Sphere, only happened because of Crusader political pressure.

He’s asking a legitimate question, and I happen to agree with his conclusion: the Wardens considered the Crusaders to be that external threat, and their actions certainly back that assertion up. Nothing else makes any sense, as the Clans had no reason to believe that an “external threat” existed, and the Warden Clans more or less seemed content to navel-gaze and beat on their fellow Clans for lack of any other purpose or reason to exist. Say what you will about the Crusaders, but at least they had a goal in mind and the will to work towards it.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

It feels a bit disingenuous to say “this is arguing for the sake of argument, read the books” to an honest question, and then completely skip over the next portion of what he was asking and miss vital context: how were the Wardens acting as Wardens when they weren’t doing anything to further that goal and being content to live in complete isolation and ignorance? How can they, y’know, ward if they don’t know if the Inner Sphere is facing any threats? The Dragoon Compromise, the only real effort to actually find out what was going on in the Inner Sphere, only happened because of Crusader political pressure.

He’s asking a legitimate question, and I happen to agree with his conclusion: the Wardens considered the Crusaders to be that external threat, and their actions certainly back that assertion up. Nothing else makes any sense, as the Clans had no reason to believe that an “external threat” existed, and the Warden Clans more or less seemed content to navel-gaze and beat on their fellow Clans for lack of any other purpose or reason to exist. Say what you will about the Crusaders, but at least they had a goal in mind and the will to work towards it.

Quick glance on Sarna would have worked just fine, no need for books

There were 8 more paragraphs after that question in which he delivered what he thinks is the answer (wrong one but it just hammers home the point that it's argument for the sake of argument)

Warden ideology didn't start with founding of Clans, it came to be after the end of Golden Century so between that and Dragoon compromise there was only tiny period of time when they were in the dark (which was rectified), definitely not long enough to claim that they were ignorant

Only Warden who considered Crusaders to be that threat was Ulrich and his crew, had Warden Clans though the same they would have thrown it out in the open in front of Council of Clans long ago

And as always the regular reminder that Clans' sole job is not just to be babysitters for others, they have their own interests and survival to think of, everyone has a day job to take care of

I don't see anyone criticizing Kuritans for not looking after FRR or OA so it would be fair to stop ragging on Clans for not rushing to change diapers of every single Inner Sphere rando when they make a doo-doo because universe doesn't revolve around the Inner Sphere

[tassa_kay]

Quick glance on Sarna would have worked just fine, no need for books

There were 8 more paragraphs after that question in which he delivered what he thinks is the answer (wrong one but it just hammers home the point that it's argument for the sake of argument)

Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it wrong, and it certainly doesn’t make it “argument for the sake of argument”. You do realize that different people come to these discussions with different perspectives, different opinions and different levels of knowledge, and not everyone views things through the same lens as you, right?

And I don’t see where he’s wrong. The only “external threat” the Warden Clans ever worked to protect the Inner Sphere from was the Crusader Clans. They did this on a macro level in the Grand Council by holding the Crusaders in check and on a micro level through the actions of people like Ulric.

If you think that’s wrong, by all means, lay out your evidence.

Warden ideology didn't start with founding of Clans, it came to be after the end of Golden Century so between that and Dragoon compromise there was only tiny period of time when they were in the dark (which was rectified), definitely not long enough to claim that they were ignorant

When the Warden ideology started couldn’t be less relevant to the fact that, until the Dragoons started sending back reports to the Homeworlds, the Clans quite literally were ignorant to what was going on in the Inner Sphere. That was literally the point of the Dragoon Compromise: to get intel.

And as always the regular reminder that Clans' sole job is not just to be babysitters for others, they have their own interests and survival to think of, everyone has a day job to take care of

Good lord, no one said it was their “sole job”, but when your political movement is literally called Warden, you would expect them to do something, ANYTHING to, y’know, ward. It’s literally their mission statement.

I don't see anyone criticizing Kuritans for not looking after FRR or OA

Because the Kuritans never claimed to be their wardens. Terrible comparison.

because universe doesn't revolve around the Inner Sphere

The BattleTech universe absolutely does revolve around the Inner Sphere. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Good lord, no one said it was their “sole job”, but when your political movement is literally called Warden, you would expect them to do something, ANYTHING to, y’know, ward. It’s literally their mission statement....

Does ideology produce food? Pump water? Build housing and infrastructure? Construct factories? Build weapons? Train soldiers? Educate civilians? Provide healthcare? Keep intruders away?

Ever tried eating ideology? Not very nutritious

And they were doing stuff to ward as per their mission statement, your personal opinion being that it was not enough or long enough is just that: personal opinion

Because the Kuritans never claimed to be their wardens. Terrible comparison.

They literally burned down the Star League because they insisted that they are big brains who should be running the show because people are the Dragon and the Dragon is for them so I'd say that carries some huge responsibility that they neglected


As for rest of your comment all I can say is: 
(whatever that's supposed to mean)

[tassa_kay]

Does ideology produce food? Pump water? Build housing and infrastructure? Construct factories? Build weapons? Train soldiers? Educate civilians? Provide healthcare? Keep intruders away?

Ever tried eating ideology? Not very nutritious

You do realize that nations can do all of these things and pursue their ideological goals, right? See all of recorded history for examples.

And they were doing stuff to ward as per their mission statement, your personal opinion being that it was not enough or long enough is just that: personal opinion

Besides the things I mentioned (countering the Crusaders in the Grand Council, Ulric’s actions), what exactly did the Warden Clans ever do to ward the Inner Sphere against outside threats? Can you even name one thing pre-Jihad (and the Blakists don’t count, either; that was pure rage and self-preservation) that wasn’t directed at the Crusader Clans?

Because if you can’t, congratulations, you’re agreeing with the person who you’re claiming is “arguing for the sake of argument”. He’s positing that the Crusaders are the external threat in this equation, and pretty much everything in canon backs this assertion up. Again, if you think this is wrong, make a rebuttal instead of just repeating “you’re wrong/that’s your opinion” as if it has any substance whatsoever.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Already answered: Warden ideology came into existence after the Golden Century not during founding of the Clans

Time IS a factor
 
Did your boss ever expect you to finish your daily report before you woke up, got dressed and got to work? Because that's what you are suggesting should be performance requirement

Warden ideology formed gradually during Political Century and by the time it sufficiently grew the Warden/Crusader split was already in effect and Dragoon compromise kicked off

There was no time to sufficiently focus on other issues

I know you think it was not supa fast enough or bigly enough but as always it's strictly your personal opinion


 

[tassa_kay]

Already answered: Warden ideology came into existence after the Golden Century not during founding of the Clans

“The Warden philosophy was adhered to by all of the Clans throughout the Golden Century, though the term 'Warden' itself didn't come into use until the Crusader ideology arose in opposition to it.”

For someone that loves to tell people to read Sarna, I’m shocked that you missed this. It’s the very first sentence in the History section of the Warden Clans entry. 

It’s taken from page 16 of WoK, so it’s in print, too.

Time IS a factor

Did your boss ever expect you to finish your daily report before you woke up, got dressed and got to work? Because that's what you are suggesting should be performance requirement

Warden ideology formed gradually during Political Century and by the time it sufficiently grew the Warden/Crusader split was already in effect and Dragoon compromise kicked off

There was no time to sufficiently focus on other issues

I know you think it was not supa fast enough or bigly enough but as always it's strictly your personal opinion

The Warden Clans had well over two centuries (a century, if you insist on sticking to your argument as I’m sure you’ll do) to do something to further their cause. And the only thing they ever did was the Dragoon Compromise, and counter the Crusaders (again, the external threat they were protecting the Inner Sphere against) in the political arena.

Time wasn’t the issue here, it was the will to act. The Wardens had no purpose outside of opposing the Crusaders. They were perfectly content to live in isolation forever and never return to the Inner Sphere. The Crusaders were the only external threat they ever actually did anything about and actively worked against.

But since I’m sure this will only get an eyeroll response and some condescending and borderline-hostile response, I’m bowing out. I’ve made my case and provided receipts, and the saying about leading a horse to water seems to apply here.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Not grasping the difference between philosophy and ideology? I've seen worse, don't sweat it

Philosophies sometimes become ideologies, it happened throughout history on couple of occasions

Again, time is the issue, local problems are an issue, survival is the issue

Life is not black and white, life does not revolve solely around the Inner Sphere (just ask Periphery folks)

You are not satisfied with performance which you are entitled to be, nothing wrong with it

Others are


 

But since I’m sure this will only get an eyeroll response and some condescending and borderline-hostile response, I’m bowing out. I’ve made my case and provided receipts, and the saying about leading a horse to water seems to apply here.

Ah yes, the trademark late edit saying you "made your case" after you already got the reply to make it look like you decided to "bow out"

Again, you are perfectly entitled to do that, just pointing it out

Doing this earlier would have saved some server space, just pointing it out too

[Wasteland Warrior]

Apologies Wobbly Guy, Fire Scorpion IIC or anyone I might have offended, I had no intention to derail or "create an argument for argument's sake" and I certainly didn't intend to blame the clans for the atrocities of the Sphere - House Lords will do House Lord things. 

I was looking for a measure by which one could be considered a Warden or Crusader in more than just name by attempting to identify the true underlying motivations of different Clans (characters and sub-factions) and their philosophies.  Considerations such as honor adherence, martial strength, political influence, treatment of freebirths/other castes, choice of allies, etc, might add some shades of grey, but they don't necessarily reflect an individual's position between Ulric and Lincoln on the spectrum.

Sadly, there is a tendency to view Clan characters from the perspective of their clans because, for the most part, it's all there is to work with.  In fiction, characters tend towards a blanket adherence to whatever their Khan or internal alternate faction leader advocates. 

Aiden Pryde, Joanna, Ter Roshak, Horse, Dianna, Kael Pershaw and Marthe were all well defined individuals with their own histories and differing opinions on various rules and aspects of Jade Falcon society, but on the question of Clan Jade Falcon's stance as staunch Crusaders fully entitled to re-establish the Star League, there is no significant deviation between any of them.  Ulric and Vlad were strong representations of each philosophy within their clan, and basically every member of Clan Wolf pre-schism was of the same mindset as one or the other. 

The Nova Cat and Ghost Bear Khans had a change of heart along the way which suggests their adherence to the Crusader cause was somewhat fickle and/or ill-informed to begin with, but there was little indication that these khans faced significant internal backlash for their shifting views ... they brought their clans along for the ride. Diamond Sharks swung away from their traditional Warden views under Khan Ian Hawker, his passing restored influence to that clan's merchant caste and Warden influences resurfaced.  If I recall, Asa Taney and the Hellions were as aggressive as the Falcons in championing the Crusader cause ... if not so empowered to actively pursue it.  The Coyotes were a once powerful clan weakened by sustained conflict with numerous Crusader clans as 'punishment' for their very staunch Warden views - views no doubt shared by their Khans on most given days.  And the Steel Vipers were always an intriguing faction when considering clan philosophy.  Natalie Breen leans conditionally towards the Warden camp, while Crusader leaning Brett Andrews ultimately slammed the door on the relevance of the whole Warden/Crusader debate.  I wouldn't initially put Andrews in quite the same category as Osis or Chistu, but he seemed to lean somewhat Crusader early, and ran off on a relatively new tangent.

But overall, with limited knowledge of the motivations, plans, actions and beliefs of many in Clan society (at least beyond a superficial level), it becomes difficult to say whether the Snow Ravens or the Cloud Cobras of the pre/early Clan Invasion were the stauncher wardens.  It is possible that one Cloud Cobra Khan may have been an Ulric level Warden whose influence was somewhat compromised by a weaker military and a saKhan whose only motivation to vote along Warden lines was a personal vendetta against Elias Crichell.  People and politics are complex like that, makes for an interesting read, particularly when punctuated by battles between giant stompy robots.

I hope at least some of this answers the original question.  For reference, most of my understanding of the history of the Clans/Clan Invasion was established during the 90s and 00s, and while I have tried to keep up, real life commitments have restricted time I have to invest in more modern releases of fiction.

[phoenixalpha]

Would it not be as simple as this.

All Clanners want to see the IS reunited under the banner of a new SL.

Wardens wanted to create a new SL in conjunction with the powers of the Inner Sphere to protect the IS and it's citizens from any external forces and have a new Golden Age with the Clans running the show.

Crusaders wanted to crush every House, and by force destroy all IS powers and armies. If billions of IS citizens paid that price... thats a price they are willing to let them pay.

Prior to the 3050 invasion, the Wolves wanted nothing to do with this, but seeing that rabid Crusaders were going to be part of the Invasion, knowing what the Falcons, Jaguars & possibly Bears would do to anyone who opposed them, the Wolves decided that they needed to be out in front, outdoing the Crusaders (although not mass citizen casualty style) to get to Terra first. Being ilKhan they knew they could steer the new SL away from mass genocide, but if the Falcons or Jaguars got to Terra first, they'd continue going and burn every world that opposed them. So by "out-Crusadering" the Crusaders - albeit in a limited way, the Wardens knew they could provide some kind of peace and guidance.

A real-world analogy - your mates are going to rob a store, guns blazing, caring nothing for casualties. You know that if you sneak in prior, rob the store with no violence, then when your mates show up - the store is already full of cops in regards the first robbery and cant be robbed again :)

[Cannonshop]

Apologies Wobbly Guy, Fire Scorpion IIC or anyone I might have offended, I had no intention to derail or "create an argument for argument's sake" and I certainly didn't intend to blame the clans for the atrocities of the Sphere - House Lords will do House Lord things. 

I was looking for a measure by which one could be considered a Warden or Crusader in more than just name by attempting to identify the true underlying motivations of different Clans (characters and sub-factions) and their philosophies.  Considerations such as honor adherence, martial strength, political influence, treatment of freebirths/other castes, choice of allies, etc, might add some shades of grey, but they don't necessarily reflect an individual's position between Ulric and Lincoln on the spectrum.

Sadly, there is a tendency to view Clan characters from the perspective of their clans because, for the most part, it's all there is to work with.  In fiction, characters tend towards a blanket adherence to whatever their Khan or internal alternate faction leader advocates. 

Aiden Pryde, Joanna, Ter Roshak, Horse, Dianna, Kael Pershaw and Marthe were all well defined individuals with their own histories and differing opinions on various rules and aspects of Jade Falcon society, but on the question of Clan Jade Falcon's stance as staunch Crusaders fully entitled to re-establish the Star League, there is no significant deviation between any of them.  Ulric and Vlad were strong representations of each philosophy within their clan, and basically every member of Clan Wolf pre-schism was of the same mindset as one or the other. 

The Nova Cat and Ghost Bear Khans had a change of heart along the way which suggests their adherence to the Crusader cause was somewhat fickle and/or ill-informed to begin with, but there was little indication that these khans faced significant internal backlash for their shifting views ... they brought their clans along for the ride. Diamond Sharks swung away from their traditional Warden views under Khan Ian Hawker, his passing restored influence to that clan's merchant caste and Warden influences resurfaced.  If I recall, Asa Taney and the Hellions were as aggressive as the Falcons in championing the Crusader cause ... if not so empowered to actively pursue it.  The Coyotes were a once powerful clan weakened by sustained conflict with numerous Crusader clans as 'punishment' for their very staunch Warden views - views no doubt shared by their Khans on most given days.  And the Steel Vipers were always an intriguing faction when considering clan philosophy.  Natalie Breen leans conditionally towards the Warden camp, while Crusader leaning Brett Andrews ultimately slammed the door on the relevance of the whole Warden/Crusader debate.  I wouldn't initially put Andrews in quite the same category as Osis or Chistu, but he seemed to lean somewhat Crusader early, and ran off on a relatively new tangent.

But overall, with limited knowledge of the motivations, plans, actions and beliefs of many in Clan society (at least beyond a superficial level), it becomes difficult to say whether the Snow Ravens or the Cloud Cobras of the pre/early Clan Invasion were the stauncher wardens.  It is possible that one Cloud Cobra Khan may have been an Ulric level Warden whose influence was somewhat compromised by a weaker military and a saKhan whose only motivation to vote along Warden lines was a personal vendetta against Elias Crichell.  People and politics are complex like that, makes for an interesting read, particularly when punctuated by battles between giant stompy robots.

I hope at least some of this answers the original question.  For reference, most of my understanding of the history of the Clans/Clan Invasion was established during the 90s and 00s, and while I have tried to keep up, real life commitments have restricted time I have to invest in more modern releases of fiction.

I kind of wonder what kind of project you're working on, whether it's a story, a campaign plotline, NPC's or the like.

Because, thanks to the (I think intentional) lack of details, you can go a LOT of ways for a "Warden" or "Crusader" character and still be plausible, even within the context of a given clan.

YOu just first have to decide that these are people and people don't really march in lockstep no matter which  pundit is claiming they do.

For example, we got lots of examples in the canon of Crusaders who wanted it for their personal glory, or because they think the Spheroids don't deserve what they have (but they do).

you know, the villain take you might find in 1970's era D.C. or Marvel comics from the Comics-Code period.  They want it because they want it, or because they want the resources, or the prestige.

But!!! there's another take, on the Crusader philosophy that doesn't get a lot of coverage in the Canon, but just might work if you're trying to run a Crusader character in a predominantly warden-inclined group in your RPG campaign.

"The Inner Sphere is a Humanitarian crisis where they've lost so much basic knowledge they will never get back on their own...we have to conquer them, to save them."  He said, letting the holorecordings from the intelligence effort play, "Millions are dying every day tht could be saved, potentials are wasted by the hour that could have ended the plunge, but they are gone.  If we go now, we may be late, but we will not be Too late to end the horrors and bring them order and JUSTICE in place of the chaos and decay fostered by the Traitor Lords."

In other words, a positive spin on the Crusader cause.  We mostly didn't get that, because the Crusaders were set up to be 'The Big Bad'.

but they don't have to be, and there's room thanks to what the Authors left unsaid (but implied) for that.

HUman beings are human beings, even Trueborns, we all want to be the heroes of our own story, we all want to believe our actions, especially the drastic ones, are coming from a good place.

Almost nobody aside from the genuinely mentally ill, actually and honestly wants to be evil.

Best part of the bit I just tossed out as an experiment? it's completely incompatible with most Warden philosophies, while also being roughly humanitarian and thought out in tone, our hypothetical Crusader character is a Crusader After seeing the mess the Inner Sphere is in, and being properly horrified by the conditions thus revealed-to the point of belief that Something must be done.

For the most part, nobody bothered to use that kind of viewpoint with Crusaders in the canon, and with good reason-the Crusade was supposed to end, to lose.  It had to be at least somewhat irredeemable because the audience for Battletech, on the whole, want (whether they admit or not, the sales figures prove it) clear lines between 'good' and 'evil', as defined by Western Morality.

at least, on the macro scale.  This is why the Jade Falcons got Malvina, instead of someone else.  Because they were supposed to be the bad guys.  Giving them someone in a leadership position who's attacking because they're trying to 'fix things' doesn't have the same vibe as giving them a nihilistic narcissist in that role.

[AlphaMirage]

+1 to Cannonshop, that is a well thought out and written piece that I was tangential to what I was thinking when outlining my fan fics with regards to my Vlad Ward.

The Wardens just never sold me that they had a vision for what they (the Clans) could be while at least the Crusaders had a plan, a terrible plan, but at least a plan of action other then just screw off and stay apart. Particularly after the Dragoons reported on the state of the Inner Sphere when they arrived and its strategic vulnerabilities. It is really quite astonishing that some Clan didn't just say screw the Council we'll launch our own invasion to take over the Inner Sphere then come back and take over with our captured resources.

Kerlin Ward could have also just told the Dragoons to prepare as he knew the zeal of the Crusaders would continue to grow the longer things remained static and the Clans would eventually return.

[ANS Kamas P81]

It is really quite astonishing that some Clan didn't just say screw the Council we'll launch our own invasion to take over the Inner Sphere then come back and take over with our captured resources.

There's always an AU in the Ice Hellions attempt to invade the IS in the early 3000s.  In canon it caused a civil war in the clan, but what if they doubled down and went all-in on attacking the IS at the nadir point of technology?

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Speaking of Hellions there's also the very in-lore question of Wylie's Coyotes mercenary outfit which popped up the same time as Wolf's Dragoons

[Orwell84]

One less noble aspect of the Warden philosophy came to mind when I was reading about Clan Coyote's history. When the issue first became important enough to merit Grand Council debate, the Coyotes were a (if not the) preeminent Clan in terms of territory and might. Then there is their conservative bent in social terms.

Reading between the lines, the Coyotes' motives for championing the Warden cause seem less like altruistic care for the Spheroids and more about preserving the status quo in Clan Space where they would remain top dog (pun intended). Given that their Wolf ally was co-dominant at the same time, this may have been a factor for the Wolves as well.

An invasion of the Inner Sphere would have upset that and given previously weaker Clans the resources to challenge Coyote supremacy - though as it turned out, the Crusaders managed to erode that anyway within half a century. One could claim that had the Coyotes instead tilted the balance towards the Crusaders in 3000 they might have had a decent shot at becoming ilClan.

[tassa_kay]

The Wardens just never sold me that they had a vision for what they (the Clans) could be while at least the Crusaders had a plan, a terrible plan, but at least a plan of action other then just screw off and stay apart.

That's exactly what I was trying to say before. The Crusaders, for all of their faults (and they are many), at least had a goal and the will to carry it out. The Wardens' only goal seemed to be to stymie the Crusaders' efforts, like they existed only to thwart them. The only vision the Wardens ever seemed to have was to stay in the Homeworlds forever.

It is really quite astonishing that some Clan didn't just say screw the Council we'll launch our own invasion to take over the Inner Sphere then come back and take over with our captured resources.

I chalk this one up to the Clans being conditioned for groupthink, and the fact that any Clan that did try to go off on their own would almost certainly get their Homeworld holdings gobbled up and, if caught doing it, would get dogpiled on for stepping out of line.

[Metallgewitter]

Well it could always be a "hey now we are only doing our little exploration missions here. we might have taken the wrong jump" excuse. And something a trial can fix as well (if said trial is won)

The Warden might be less a Warden of the IS but rather a Warden of the Clan's lifestyle. As shown from the invasion and the "corruption" of the Clans that came into long term contact with the IS and especially it's forces the Clans began to change. Jealousy began to build and the Invader Clans suddenly had to deal with people they are not used to their "style2 of goverment while also suddenly having ressources in abundance which runs counter to Nicolas principle of a rather spartan lifestyle. Add in to that that the Invaders were suddenly fighting "dirty" and you can see how the idea of Corruption spread (that and getting their collectivae asses beat by the IS in 3061 on their own Capital)

[smdvogrin]

I chalk this one up to the Clans being conditioned for groupthink, and the fact that any Clan that did try to go off on their own would almost certainly get their Homeworld holdings gobbled up and, if caught doing it, would get dogpiled on for stepping out of line.

"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness.", you might say.