Author Topic: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth  (Read 204443 times)

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #540 on: 24 May 2018, 13:09:36 »
Credit to the Germans for at least realizing that a single carrier (see: Aquila) isn't much of a threat to anyone in-general, particularly when you're just diving into carrier warfare for the first time. The Germans didn't always have great ideas when it came to the Graf Zeppelin, but they at least paid attention to other nations' designs and tactics. In particular, Raeder seems to have taken a lot of interest in the pre-war drills run by the Americans with Lexington and Saratoga, and really did plan on running two carriers under the 'Z' plan- but not together. Rather they'd have operated (in a perfect world) as the centerpiece of forces consisting of a couple of battleships and other escorts, providing cover and scout support and adding in some firepower while the battleships did their jobs.

Whether it would have worked is anyone's guess- like the Italians, the Germans had no experience with sea-based aviation and were kind of winging it (pardon the pun), so how well the navalized Ju-87s and such would have done in combat is tough to say. Either way, Hitler's impatience ruined the Kriegsmarine's plans before most of the ships planned were ready anyway. Worth considering though... if there's a few navalized Bf-109s flying around overhead when Ark Royal's planes arrive, might Bismarck have made it to occupied France for her repairs rather than taking the fatal torpedo?
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #541 on: 24 May 2018, 13:17:25 »
The Fw-190 would have been a better candidate for naval use, but well never know.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #542 on: 24 May 2018, 13:41:06 »
Against a handful of Fairey Swordfish? Very probably.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #543 on: 24 May 2018, 13:44:28 »
The Brits might have put a bit more effort into the naval air arm if the Germans had actually finished a carrier...

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #544 on: 24 May 2018, 14:28:50 »
did the nazi's have high performance seaplanes? i know a lot of their early fighters got their start as racing planes, and IIRC seaplanes were a big racing fixation before the war. so you'd expect them to have at least come up with some sort of "fit launch catapults and recovery cranes for seaplane fighters to a destroyer/light cruiser" concept to give their big ships some fighter cover.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #545 on: 24 May 2018, 14:32:58 »
The Arado 196 was the seaplane of choice for German heavy ships, but it wasn't really a fighter- it was more of a scout, like the American OS2U Kingfisher. The reason they carried those instead of something more fighter-y? Simple- they had to. German ships tended to not have particularly large hangars, if they had one at all- so if you can only carry two planes, you carry two scouts, because that's what was really needed.

An Arado coming across its opposite number, like a Walrus or float-equipped Swordfish, was in a good position to get rid of the pest, but against a Hurricane it was lunch meat. Just how it is.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #546 on: 24 May 2018, 14:51:42 »
On a tangent with Sea Hurricanes... before the Royal Navy had enough escort carriers they resorted to "one-shot" Hurricanes on merchant ships.

The main problem with naval battles as it is till today is that of reconnaissance, and even U-boat wolf packs need to know where to go to lie in wait for their targets. Hence the German Fw200 Condor maritime patrol aircraft was employed to hunt for convoys and vector U-boats onto them.



A handful of suitable merchant ships (called "Catapult Aircraft Merchant ships") in a convoy would be equipped with a catapult and a single Hurricane. Once a Condor was spotted shadowing a convoy, the CAM ship would scramble its Hurricane, who would take off in a sheet of flame and shoot down or at least scare away the Condor while the convoy took evasive action. Once the Hurricane was out of fuel the pilot would ditch it and be recovered.

The Hurricanes also came in handy to fend off marauding He-111s and Ju-88s armed with torpedoes. They were phased out once the RN had enough escort carriers to defend the convoys more conventionally.



JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #547 on: 24 May 2018, 15:00:56 »
Mostly true. The 'be recovered' part... was a little spotty sometimes. The casualty rate for MAC pilots was a lot higher than one would like- and it wasn't because of the Germans.  xp
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #548 on: 24 May 2018, 19:52:08 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #549 on: 24 May 2018, 20:05:04 »

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #550 on: 24 May 2018, 20:10:23 »
^ ok that's pretty cool

Mostly true. The 'be recovered' part... was a little spotty sometimes. The casualty rate for MAC pilots was a lot higher than one would like- and it wasn't because of the Germans.  xp
CAM, not MAC. The CAM pilots lost only 1 man. Then again they launched only what, 10 times so thats still 10% losses

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #551 on: 24 May 2018, 20:18:55 »
Ok, I'll bite. Huh?

Probably somebody who has recently retired and found themselves with way too much time on their hands.
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Charlie 6

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #552 on: 24 May 2018, 20:26:05 »
Probably somebody who has recently retired and found themselves with way too much time on their hands.
I have so far refused to resemble that remark...also I don't have a smidgen of the talent it took to do that model.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #553 on: 24 May 2018, 21:22:57 »
sorry, forgot to add to the post,
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“Toe jam in training”

Because while the other Great Houses of the Star League thought they were playing chess, House Cameron was playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker the entire time.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #554 on: 24 May 2018, 21:34:46 »
^ ok that's pretty cool
CAM, not MAC. The CAM pilots lost only 1 man. Then again they launched only what, 10 times so thats still 10% losses

Yeah. The MACs involved sticking a proper flight deck ontop of a merchant ship. And in the case of some, they even had a hangar!

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #555 on: 24 May 2018, 21:57:24 »
It's not a model of an actual port, as pretty as it is.   Not even 32nd Street is that crowded.  The Carriers have to moor over on North Island.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #556 on: 25 May 2018, 16:11:20 »


Quick some turn on the MapMaster light! This needs to b a map!

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #557 on: 25 May 2018, 17:48:53 »
And of course the planes wouldn't be on the carriers in port, but damn that was a lot of work.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #558 on: 25 May 2018, 17:56:08 »
Also true... plus, there's no way that lower carrier and auxiliary would be coming/going at the same time.

sadlerbw

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #559 on: 25 May 2018, 19:07:21 »
And of course the planes wouldn't be on the carriers in port, but damn that was a lot of work.

Not up on the flight deck, or not on the carrier at all?

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #560 on: 25 May 2018, 19:23:25 »
Not on the carrier at all... At least not in a home port.

Charlie 6

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #561 on: 25 May 2018, 20:59:46 »
Not on the carrier at all... At least not in a home port.
I seem to recall a MEU deployment where we had to crane a UH-1 off the flight deck in port because she'd been griped down when the tried to tow her...broke the plane's back so to speak.  Essentially GUAM had a hood ornament for most of the deployment.  But yeah, that's the only time I've heard of aircraft still being on the deck when in home port.

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #562 on: 25 May 2018, 21:19:39 »
Helos are the only aircraft that can even contemplate flight operations in port.  Even then, they need permission from god and country...

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #563 on: 26 May 2018, 07:38:04 »
Helos are the only aircraft that can even contemplate flight operations in port.  Even then, they need permission from god and country...

Arranging wind for a FW launch would be entertaining, to say the least...

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #564 on: 26 May 2018, 10:19:35 »
So, do they fly the whole air wing off and park them at the nearest land base? Never realized they went to all that effort, but I guess they don’t really come back to port for long unless they plan to stay there for a while. Interesting!

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #565 on: 26 May 2018, 10:48:29 »
So, do they fly the whole air wing off and park them at the nearest land base? Never realized they went to all that effort, but I guess they don’t really come back to port for long unless they plan to stay there for a while. Interesting!
Yup.  And often times the air wing will transfer to another carrier and get back underway.  With a downtime averaging two or three years for refit and refueling, no point in leaving the a/c aboard.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #566 on: 26 May 2018, 13:09:53 »
USS Ranger CV-4, the US Navy's first purpose built aircraft carrier.


The Ranger operated in the Atlantic unlike more classic naval carrier battles we hear from the Pacific more commonly.  Her major action was during Operation Torch, where the ship air compliment efforts cover the landings into Vichy-ruled French Morocco in November 1942. The ship's aircraft launched 496 sorties which resulted in the destruction of around 85 enemy aircraft. It's aircraft attacks resulted in the sinking of the battleship Jean Bart, severe damage to the destroyer leader Albatros, and attacks on the cruiser Primaugut.

She was was slow in comparison other carriers that came on, resulting her to secondary duties during the war. 
She survived and remained commission until 1946 when she was scrapped. 

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #567 on: 26 May 2018, 22:03:34 »
The Jean Bart famously dueled with the Massachusetts,  and the Mass put Jean's turrets out of action so why would they need to sink her?
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #568 on: 26 May 2018, 23:34:17 »
Make sure those turrets can't be brought back online, at least not in time to affect that battle.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #569 on: 26 May 2018, 23:56:05 »
The turret was repaired and already back in action. She almost hit some cruiser with a couple shells, upon which it was decided to sink her wiith a couple bombers.

 

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