New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen

[nckestrel]

It's possible an idea like yours could piggy-back off that, but only if it's successful.

I think that summarizes the plan fairly well.
Build a firm base, and everything else (eventually) becomes possible.  None of these ideas are bad, but the game needs a strong foundation first.  Then you expand.

[Fear Factory]

Fair enough. But the real answer is that you and I don't actually know. We have examples of product lines CGL attempted that just didn't go anywhere that are not dissimilar to your ideas: Lance Packs, Combat Manuals, and SteelRaven just mentioned the Starter Books. All the lines had a few publications but then petered out, I presume because of slow sales. Not that they didn't eventually sell, but that they didn't sell fast enough. Worktroll once used a word I think is apt: velocity. If you can't get enough back in time to build a budget and parcel out art, writing, and design assignments, it's not going to take off. The occasional sales receipts coming in are nice, but they needed to be in *last year* is the idea.

And in any case I repeat myself: we don't know. CGL has the sales numbers and market analysis. We don't. I know that sounds like pooh-poohing what seems to you like a great idea and I'm certainly sorry if it comes across that way, but to be blunt, great ideas are cheap. Ray (Adrian) probably has a notebook full of them. Putting together a development plan and following through is where the real creative work happens and it's way harder than either of us knows.

Anyhow, Cubby and Adrian have been very clear on multiple occasions that the new box sets represent a significant sales experiment. They are intended to be reprinted much more quickly and profitably than previous versions. The more they sell, the more they make. In fact Cubby has all but yelled "buy as many as you want and stop worrying about running out; we'll make more! Sheesh!". It's possible an idea like yours could piggy-back off that, but only if it's successful.

No offence taken.  I wish I knew.  I wish the ideas that us fans have would help.  The box sets are by far the best approach...

As a long time loyal fan, I plan on making a purchase, but it's really just for the new stuff: Miniatures.

I think that summarizes the plan fairly well.
Build a firm base, and everything else (eventually) becomes possible.  None of these ideas are bad, but the game needs a strong foundation first.  Then you expand.

...I really, really, REALLY, hope the box sets do well.

[Colt Ward]

I really think the Expansion Box idea might be the way to go, since it can be a generalist product like the regular box sets.  Minis, maps, 'new' equipment rules, some fluff and maybe a few scenario ideas using what is in the box & the two starter boxes.

[klarg1]

I think the new boxed sets are far more important in today's market. I'm actually kind of surprised - and a bit concerned - that the core rulebooks are getting a new printing. It strikes me as a serious misread of what people are buying these days.

I completely agree that the boxed sets are the critical product to get the game on the shelves, and in the hands of new players, but I disagree on the core rulebooks.

I read the reprint as CGL's attempt to keep the current rules of the game in-print, and available without having to go to the time and expense of producing a whole new edition. I mean, regardless of the entry point, it is always a hard sell any game to a player if I have to tell them the rules are out of print, and there is no other up to date version of the full game.

The Battlemech manual will, presumably, continue to exist as the more streamlined version, without all the aerospace bells and mobile support whistles.

[klarg1]

I really think the Expansion Box idea might be the way to go, since it can be a generalist product like the regular box sets.  Minis, maps, 'new' equipment rules, some fluff and maybe a few scenario ideas using what is in the box & the two starter boxes.

If CGL can apply their new boardgame know-how to packaging the extended rules as a stream of $15-25 expansion packs to the boxed GoaC, and it succeeds, I will be thrilled.

[I am Belch II]

A boxed set would help getting people to the game...then you need a way to figure how to keep them.

[Wrangler]

Depends on how frugal players are now.  If there into tabletop maybe, but younger ones i run into. Some don't have alot money throw around. 20 dollar box thing maybe way to go here, with bigger box IF they like the game.

Alpha Strike and Regular Battletech need to be totally accessible to them.  I'm sometimes concern cost of the game may make it difficult for players who may get interested in the game to get into it.  It won't be like teenagers who turn on to it on their own.

[Mindwiper]

So is there a reason why the old coverart has close to nothing todo with the content?
I loved the art back in the day, but new players? Will they? Wrong marketing direction...

[ActionButler]

I also like the idea of an Expansion Box, but what would be the point?  Adding more mechs and rules of the same era? Adding non-mechs? Adding didferent eras? All of those would be useful, but, at the end of the day, what do you actually NEED to play Battletech?

Rules, maps, and record sheets.

Any products that aren’t those three things are just window dressing.  An expansion box would be a GREAT way to add a sample of those as an introduction, just like the intro boxes are an introduction to the game as a whole (sorry, that sentence made more sense in my coffee p-deprived brain), but those are the three products that players REQUIRE.

[pheonixstorm]

Expansion boxes could include basic rules for vees as well as record sheets and minis, or you could add in some of the more advanced rules from TO/BMM as well as more mechs and record sheets.

Would also be a good time for an Alpha Strike box with 12 IS mechs and 10 clan mechs. No need for maps so you can sub for more minis. With 22 minis you also don't need punch out stands either.

[Daryk]

The expansion box idea sounds a lot like CityTech Mark II...

[Wrangler]

I didn't play in the day, what would a new CityTech book include? What would make it stand out compared to up and coming starter and regular boxes?

[Sellsword]

I also like the idea of an Expansion Box, but what would be the point?  Adding more mechs and rules of the same era? Adding non-mechs? Adding didferent eras? All of those would be useful, but, at the end of the day, what do you actually NEED to play Battletech?

Rules, maps, and record sheets.

Any products that aren’t those three things are just window dressing.  An expansion box would be a GREAT way to add a sample of those as an introduction, just like the intro boxes are an introduction to the game as a whole (sorry, that sentence made more sense in my coffee p-deprived brain), but those are the three products that players REQUIRE.

I wouldn’t under estimate the draw of window dressing.  It’s the miniatures in the starter sets that seem to have universal appeal to both old and new customers.  Rules and maps are great but it is the eye candy that will initially draw a customer in and I feel is more important to keep them coming back.  It’s the rule of cool.  While important the rules set, maps, world building doesn’t matter if it isn’t 😎.

[Bedwyr]

I’ll still maintain my “it’ll come when it’s time” stance, but it would probably help your guys’s speculation if you reason through the problem. ActionButler got a good start on it.

- What is the premise of the Battletech product? This is fundamentally a board game that functions frequently as but isn’t required to be a war game.
- Assume your customer base is split into factions with different tastes: primarily campaigners (RPG players for lack of a better word), fiction readers, pick-up players, war-gamers (may be WYSIWYG zealots or not), armchair generals (theorists including fans of hardware, science, and strategy), and artists (all fan art, fanfic, painting, and terrain making)
-Players are usually primarily one group but have affinity for other groups.
-Assume your player base is small. Let’s do a Fermi estimate and say it’s 10,000 and not 100,000 and not 1,000.
- Also assume player commitment varies a lot and it’s been waning somewhat.
- Your local group experience doesn’t count. That’s your local group, a sub-sub-market, not the market.
- It is way easier to publish books than make boxed or blister pack products. You can do the latter, but your knowledge and resources are dedicated mostly to getting print published.
- Small business means 3-5 people with a bunch of volunteers and freelancers, not 100.
- It is also reasonable to assume that there is a theoretical new market out there, but your resources are limited.

From those premises you can probably construct better arguments.

[pheonixstorm]

Not really enough to go on. For me I could get by with that.

But it really depends on knowing what sells and at what volume. There are a lot of PDF only products that might sell well. I know I have bought every Touring the Stars that has been released so far. But there is also the question of how are the freelancers paid. Do they get X per word or X per project? How well have the TtS books sold (or X project).

If you have a cheap to produce PDF only product that can make a profit quickly then turn them out at a decent rate. A new box set that WILL sell but at a low velocity is still an option as long as you can approach it properly and with an eye to future expansion.

A lot of what happens will depend on what sells. If it sells too slowly but still sells out it should still be worth it, just not all the time. You should want a steady income regardless.

[ActionButler]

I wouldn’t under estimate the draw of window dressing.  It’s the miniatures in the starter sets that seem to have universal appeal to both old and new customers.  Rules and maps are great but it is the eye candy that will initially draw a customer in and I feel is more important to keep them coming back.  It’s the rule of cool.  While important the rules set, maps, world building doesn’t matter if it isn’t 😎.

I’m not trying to suggest that the window dressing isn’t important.  I think the excitement over the new minis proves that window dressing is very important, which is why an expansion box, maybe one that introduces infantry, tanks, and close-range mechs or mech variants boxed with city maps and either more minis or more standees/counters would be a good use of resources.

BUT... those shiny new minis, gorgeous though they may be, are not required to play Battletech.  Unless CGL changes the rules to require their use, minis are not an essential element of the game.  Maps are required. Record sheets are required.  Rules and dice are required.  Right now, we don’t even have access to those basic types of products and neither do new players.

If they can get these box sets on to shelves and keep them in production, I think CGL is on the right track and I am pretty optimistic.  But let’s not kid ourselves, guys.  There are zero Battletech products xurrently available.  No boxes, no rule books, no maps, no record sheets.  Worrying about making minis of anything other than the Intro Mechs is pointless until the basic products are availble to new players. Honestly, since CGL isn’t a mini company, I would like to see more of those standees made availble. It would be a great way to guide new players, too.  Put a AFFS standee pack on the shelves with lots of Enforcers and Centurians in Davion Guard colors.  It lets new players field an army on the cheap, eliminates the ridiculous “oh, don’t worry about which of these 500 mech minis to buy, everyone can use everything because salvage” handwaving, and gives new players some idea of what minis that they may want to buy if they want to go deeper into the game.

[The Eagle]

When I look at the success of Infinity and 8th edition 40K, they both have in recent years been releasing multiple starter boxes that are faction x vs faction y with included rules and terrain.  These boxes seem to sell incredibly well and often times people will split a box or two because they want only half the minis in each.  While the proliferation of Mechs across factions makes doing faction vs faction not really a thing, the fact that CGL is following a similar paradigm at a competitive price point is encouraging to me.  Comparing this to the forthcoming Adeptus Titanicus game, for example, the price point for big stompy robots is so much more affordable that I'm encouraged for the health of this game.

[Charistoph]

When I look at the success of Infinity and 8th edition 40K, they both have in recent years been releasing multiple starter boxes that are faction x vs faction y with included rules and terrain.  These boxes seem to sell incredibly well and often times people will split a box or two because they want only half the minis in each.  While the proliferation of Mechs across factions makes doing faction vs faction not really a thing, the fact that CGL is following a similar paradigm at a competitive price point is encouraging to me.  Comparing this to the forthcoming Adeptus Titanicus game, for example, the price point for big stompy robots is so much more affordable that I'm encouraged for the health of this game.

Exactly.  A small "lance pack" that includes a quick print of the Battletech manual, a small faction blurb of one of the Successor States that it represents, and Pilot Cards for each from that individual faction can go a long way in making an expansion pack shine.  If you want to leave it as a pure expansion, leave the manual out and put in one mapsheet.  Further expansion lance packs can include specific Mercenary units and units of renown of each of the Successor States and the Clans themselves. 

It's one of the better ideas behind Privateer Press' Battlebox, and they even have a formal growth league tied in to using them as a base.

Now, I probably wouldn't do a full 5 pack release, but either do a 3039 Fist and the Dragon release, or go for the 4th's opening gambit between the Suns and the Confederation.  If one wanted to keep it in play, release either Falcon & Lyrans or Jags & Combine.  Each pack would include a lance that would focus on signature units of the individual armies, though, I think that the Lyrans would either have to be handicapped somehow or be paired up with Ghost Bears to justify the individual releases.

It's part advertisement, part product placement, and brings opportunities for hobbyists and players to show their friends the "new shiny".

[abou]

Or do a FWLM vs FWLM pack! All Orions all the time!

[klarg1]

Speculatively, I was thinking of something along the lines of flat pack expansions, containing 1-2 sheets of punch-out game pieces, 1 game board, and 3-10 pages of additional rules (vehicles, VTOLs, buildings, weather, new tech, whatever), and 5-10 pre-printed record sheets would be a pretty cool add-on for players expanding from the box set, and fits very well with the board game market.

Miniatures would be nice, but would substantially increase the production and packaging cost for something like that.

The question that arises from that is: Will these sell enough? They will primarily sell to newer players, but a brand new map board, and maybe some terrain punch outs like the old map packs, might bring in enough appeal for the established base to buy in, but also might not.

[ActionButler]

though, I think that the Lyrans would either have to be handicapped somehow or be paired up with Ghost Bears to justify the individual releases.

Flashpoint: Lyran Guards Recon company vs Clan Ghost Bear Infantry detachment.

Twelve Atlases and 150 Elemental points.

 

[PyreLight]

CGL's Kickstarter for the Shadowrun boardgame went extremely well with significant funding, I hope they do something similar with Battletech some years down the line when they have the bandwidth to do so.

[Fear Factory]

I’ll still maintain my “it’ll come when it’s time” stance, but it would probably help your guys’s speculation if you reason through the problem. ActionButler got a good start on it.

snip

The game started as a "beer and pretzel" game.  Let's assume we don't want to make miniatures anymore.

- Assume your customer base is split into factions with different tastes: primarily campaigners (RPG players for lack of a better word), fiction readers, pick-up players, war-gamers (may be WYSIWYG zealots or not), armchair generals (theorists including fans of hardware, science, and strategy), and artists (all fan art, fanfic, painting, and terrain making)

I'm going to assume that we have a 4th edition style box set.  No miniatures, just cardboard cutouts with a bunch of other materials to play the game.

So, how about this 4th edition setup with an expansion of the classics/nuseen to offer up more of a selection.  Like, a reinforcements pack, that has been done before...

For faction specific sets, how about books with maps and punch out playing pieces slapped in the back?  Couple the box sets with book cardboard cutout supplements, record sheets, a mapsheet and a scenario or two to go with it.  Sort of like smaller box sets, but in book form that fit on shelves.  Put the themed dice sets next to them.  Make these all unique with different factions, keep them themed around the box set era (3025/before 4th Succession War).  It's cheap, an easy era to get into, and offers new content.

- Small business means 3-5 people with a bunch of volunteers and freelancers, not 100.

From those premises you can probably construct better arguments.

I'm sick of the small business excuse.  Small or not, 15 years(?) for a new box set is pretty ridiculous.  Especially when, as I said above, there are options.

Catalyst dropped the ball.

[ColBosch]

I'd argue that theoretical BattleTech expansion boxes absolutely need miniatures. Cardboard standees are nice as an extra, but it's the "toy value" that sells games today.

[Scotty]

These is at least the fourth and fifth box sets in the last 15 years.  Just because the sculpts of the main 'Mechs included didn't change doesn't make them not new (and the 'Mechs included have changed at least twice in the last 15 years prior to now).

There's the shitty plastics box (pretty sure this was concurrent with Total Warfare)
The 25th Anniversary box (Loki and Thor)
The current box set (Battlemaster and Mad Cat)

And now the two new boxes.

[Bedwyr]

I'm sick of the small business excuse.  Small or not, 15 years(?) for a new box set is pretty ridiculous.  Especially when, as I said above, there are options.

Catalyst dropped the ball.

I'm not making excuses, I'm making reasonable inferences about the resources you have to help guide your hypothetical product decisions.

[Fear Factory]

I'd argue that theoretical BattleTech expansion boxes absolutely need miniatures. Cardboard standees are nice as an extra, but it's the "toy value" that sells games today.

Just playing devil's advocate with my post.  I love minis too, but "it's too hard" or "too expensive" or "won't sell."

I'm not making excuses, I'm making reasonable inferences about the resources you have to help guide your hypothetical product decisions.

Unless Catalyst is going to give me that info, I can only speculate.

So I assumed that miniatures and box sets are out of the question.  Softcover books with punchouts/maps/etc. in the back is my offer.  A lot of this material is readily available, just not crammed into this format.

EDIT:  I mean, would something like this just not be doable?  I don't see how a fancy book is less doable than the Box Set that is too hard to produce with miniatures.

[ActionButler]

I'd argue that theoretical BattleTech expansion boxes absolutely need miniatures. Cardboard standees are nice as an extra, but it's the "toy value" that sells games today.

I think it makes terrific sense to include minis in any potential box sets.  Even if it is just two new, good quality ones, like the forthcoming intro box.

But for new players who, unlike us, do not have 20-30 years worth of armies already, standees are a great substitue for minis.  For CGL, they are a great, simple product that you would think would be pretty easy to keep in production.

Toy value is great.  Toy value is wonderful.  Yes, toy value sells games.  But, again, right now there is no game to attach that toy value to, so that is a very “cart before the horse” plan. There is zero value in a high-quality mini if players don’t have access to the record sheet that they actually do need to use it, or to maps that they need to generate a playing field for it.

[Sartris]

I'm sick of the small business excuse.  Small or not, 15 years(?) for a new box set is pretty ridiculous.  Especially when, as I said above, there are options.

Catalyst dropped the ball.

Everyone is a business genius with hindsight and other people’s money. You got any posts from 2003 calling for these changes?

[Bedwyr]

Unless Catalyst is going to give me that info, I can only speculate.

Which I'm doing as well. But I have good reasons for voicing them, especially including previous PTB comments. Some may be wrong but I'll bet you a hundred dollars I got more right than wrong.

So I assumed that miniatures and box sets are out of the question.  Softcover books with punchouts/maps/etc. in the back is my offer.  A lot of this material is readily available, just not crammed into this format.

EDIT:  I mean, would something like this just not be doable?  I don't see how a fancy book is less doable than the Box Set that is too hard to produce with miniatures.

Don't discount box sets out of hand, just as you shouldn't embrace them out of the gate. That's why I phrased it the way I did. You as the show-runner at Catalyst can marshal funding to execute expansion boxes. But you have to know that your expertise is in books and you know that you can get those out the door quicker and generate cash flow. Game box design uses a different skill set. It's an expertise (like the back-and-forth of modeling, fabrication, proofing, and final approval with a factory whose culture and language you may not understand) you can commit to gaining, but at a much higher, maybe existential, risk.

So the way I'd phrase things is "Box expansions are very high risk and difficult to execute but ultimately worth it over doing a book line because..."

Or "I think CGL should get things going again with book lines and hold box expansions in reserve until they have a better idea of market potential because..."

Both are valid but what I'm doing is using those resource inferences as grounds to speculate about what I'd do, adding that there's risk I might very well be wrong.

I'll note that the way I'm talking about this is coming from a lot of my academic writing where I have to get my ducks in a row and speak carefully and cautiously or else reviewers will rip me a new one. :)