Author Topic: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects  (Read 1902 times)

Bison AIs

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(Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« on: 18 September 2023, 16:49:34 »
Errata states, “All heat effects resolve simultaneously, without affecting each other.”

I'm struggling to find a reading of this that resolves the original timing question and  avoids changing core damage resolution mechanics.   


Reading 1: Narrowly Simultaneous

I'll read "heat effect" strictly, referencing only the exact items on the heat scale but not subsequent outcomes. e.g. The avoid shutdown roll but not the subsequent PSR for shutting down etc. I’ll call the actual listed heat effects listed heat effects and the steps they trigger knock-on effects. I’ll also read “simultaneously” as “in any order” as a player can’t do multiple things at once. Lastly, I read the simultaneous and separate language as descriptive rather than prescriptive — it’s just the case that the effects are described as simultaneous because it's just the case that the effects don’t interact. There's no changes to damage resolution mechanics intended.   

Scenario:

During the heat phase a mech without life support reaches heat X and must resolve the following Listed Heat Effects: Marking one wound, rolling to avoid shutdown, and rolling to avoid ammo explosion. The player chooses to resolve thus: mark the wound, immediately roll and fail the shutdown, immediately roll and fail the avoid ammo explosion check.

The player must then resolve the following ‘knock-on effects’: A conscious check, a PSR (and potentially a fall), and the ammo explosion.

The effects involve marking the sheet and as such must be strictly ordered. They're also not Listed Heat effects and so I don't read the simultaneity clause as describing them.

In what order should they be resolved then?

It's worth asking because even though the listed heat effects were resolved, their meaning can shift a great deal depending on resolution order — failing the KO check from the high heat wound can indirectly lead to an auto-fall when the player resolves the PSR for shutting down, and the fall damage might destroy the only location with ammo, effectively negating the effects of the ammo explosion as there will be no ammo to explode once the player moves on to resolving that knock on effect.

This all seems counter to the point of the errata (answering the timing question), so I'm guessing my read is wrong.


Reading 2: Broadly Simultaneous

Here I’ll read “heat effect” broadly to mean the exact item on the heat scale and any entailed events, e.g. a shutdown roll and the subsequent PSR, falling, wounds, conscious checks etc. Because these events can require marking the sheet based on what’s marked on the sheet I read “simultaneous” as being prescriptive and indicating a departure from normal damage resolution, which is strictly ordered.

Scenario:
 
During heat phase a mech without life-support reaches X heat just like before.

The chains of events will be simultaneous so the player may choose to resolve each in any order.

The player begins by marking one wound (their first wound) and immediately makes and passes their conscious check.

The player then makes a shutdown roll. The player fails the roll and shuts down. They immediately resolve the PSR for auto shutdown and fail that. They then make and fail the pilot safety check.

At this point the sheet already has one wound marked but the player must mark a new wound without the former interacting with the later. The situation will compound when a failed avoid ammo explosion roll causes a third first-wound.

In order to resolve these chains of events without affecting one another the core damage system must change. For example, instead of marked damage having single causes (a crossed dot was cased by a medium laser hit), damage could now be over-determined or thresholded, i.e. the high heat and the failed safety were each sufficient to have caused a first wound and so a first wound is suffered and that’s that. Like if two people threw matches into a dry forest and a forest fire occurred — the fire could have happened because of either but both happening doesn’t make two fires. Coherent though bizarre (in BT land at least).

I doubt a twist like this is intended and so I don't think my read here is right either. 


Proposal

Listed heat effects are damage events resolved just like attack damage events and in X order (where X is literally any official order). Just like in an attack phase conscious checks are taken immediately and PSRs resolved at the end of the phase.

Simple. Potential for fun BT-like event interactions.

The ordering could be anything — 'lowest level to highest', 'highest to lowest', this exact order (Ammo, Shutdown, Wounds, etc,) or 'even players choice" — so long as the effects are resolved as damage events.

If it's important from a design perspective that a player must always resolve a shutdown roll given the state of the pilot at the start of the phase, the official order can just be "1. Shutdown rolls, 2. .... ". Admittedly that order could lead to a case where an ammo explosion is avoided because fall damage took off the containing segment, but that seems to me very much a feature (insofar as it makes for a good story) rather than a bug. Moreover, if the ordering were heat-scale dependent (start with lowest check) there'd be a variability to the possible stories with very little rules cost. Just saying! ✌️

« Last Edit: 21 September 2023, 13:22:59 by Xotl »

Xotl

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Re: Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #1 on: 21 September 2023, 13:22:52 »
The errata note was added to the "Effects of Heat" section.  It applies specifically to these effects, not anything to do with heat ever.

The note was added as resolution to this thread:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,80110.0.html

The events that occur on the Heat Data chart had no resolution order, and so this errata fixes that by ensuring that you resolve each in a vacuum: they don't affect each other.  But the note has no wider effect beyond that.

If I get the chance I would reword it to "All effects of heat from the Heat Data chart...".  At the same time, the wording is very succinct as it is because even one more word would make it spill over onto a new line, which the page doesn't have to spare.  Sometimes layout issues determine errata wording, because it has to be shoehorned into existing text and there's only so much give an already-laid out book has.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2023, 14:07:03 by Xotl »
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Bison AIs

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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #2 on: 26 September 2023, 08:41:46 »
Totally appreciate the word constraints and need for brevity.

If I understand you correctly here, my first read is correct, we’re just talking about precise listed items, so a pilot wound for high heat but not the subsequent  conscious check.

I then have the following question:

If a mech fails a shutdown roll, an ammo explosion roll, and takes a wound from high heat and no life support, in what order are these subsequent (non heat effect) effects resolved (a PSR, explosion and wounds, and a conscious check)?
« Last Edit: 26 September 2023, 08:43:37 by Bison AIs »

Xotl

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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #3 on: 30 September 2023, 22:01:04 »
The shutdown roll and and ammo explosion rolls can be done in any order.  Any Consciousness rolls resulting from that or faulty Life Support would be rolled next.  Then any PSRs are made from shutting down due to heat or 20+ damage from an ammo explosion, which could result in a fall and more pilot damage.

This sequencing should be the same as how it would be during prior phases.
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Bison AIs

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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #4 on: 01 October 2023, 08:23:20 »
I’m afraid I don’t entirely understand your answer. I will clarify.

A player with a mech at X heat has literally performed only these things in real life:
Rolled dice (to avoid shutdown), rolled dice (to avoid ammo explosion), marked a box (for the wound).

They are obligated to roll dice to resolve a conscious check, roll dice to  resolve a piloting skill roll, and perform the steps for resolving an explosion (which includes applying damage, marking wounds, and potentially triggering a psr).


Because the heat effects don’t include these subsequent items and because the heat effect resolution is unordered, the subsequent items are unordered.

Previous phases include both movement and weapons phases where timing rules are different, so that doesn’t clarify things — in movement phase damage and psrs happen basically per move-step while in attack phases all damage happens and then psrs happen at the end on the phase.

If the wound from high heat is first, ok. (I presume then that if the roll fails, the psr induced by the shutdown also auto fails.)

Now, is the shutdown-induced psr and any possible subsequent fall resolved before the explosion (including wounds damage etc)? Or, is the explosion resolved next (after the high heat wound conscious check).
« Last Edit: 01 October 2023, 08:28:28 by Bison AIs »

Xotl

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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #5 on: 18 December 2023, 01:35:27 »
We'll be updating this: just want to make sure it makes sense on your end.

Let's change the "all simultaneous" clause with the following:

"Resolve Shutdown heat effects before Ammunition heat effects. MechWarrior damage due to life support critical hits is resolved last."

Any issues seen there?
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Bison AIs

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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #6 on: 18 December 2023, 15:56:04 »
Ah, appreciate the heads up and that this hasn't been shelved!

I've underlined some items in the scenarios below that I'm not 100% sure are as-intended.

The language seems to support two reads though neither breaks.

Below I read "Resolve x heat effects" to include damage and PSRs but couldn't argue with a player ruling all heat phase PSRs come at the end of the phase.

I think a persistent gotcha beneath these rules/rulings is that heat effects are being treated as a novel situation though they are of a kind with attacks — vaguely simultaneous events with non-interacting uncertainties that need translated into a sequence of steps — for which a tight solution exists in combat phases' step-based process: check for all did-it-happens, resolve all damage in strict sequence with conscious checks immediate, conclude with all PSRs. If the heat phase rules are not that, they'll probably leak somewhere unless they explicate timing of those three things.


Scenario:

During the heat phase a mech without life support reaches heat X and must resolve the following Listed Heat Effects: Marking one wound, rolling to avoid shutdown, and rolling to avoid ammo explosion. The player does the following and in this order.

Variation 1:

Makes a shutdown roll. Fails.
Makes a PSR to avoid falling due to a shut down. Fails
Resolve the fall…
Makes and fails a pilot safety check. Takes their first wound.
Makes and passes a conscious check.
Resolves falling damage, destroying their right torso, which contained their last LRM rounds. (Does not score a critical hit.)
Skips the Avoid Ammo Explosion Roll as there is no longer ammo in the unit.*
*(Mechanically coherent though a clear pivot from the previous rule's flavor so I'm not sure if this is an intended design/flavor pivot or I'm misreading.)
Deals one wound to the pilot for high heat with no life support, their second.
Makes and fails a conscious check on a 5+.

Mech ends heat phase standing but immobile.


Variation 2:

Makes a shutdown roll. Fails.
Makes one PSR at +3 to avoid falling due to a auto shutdown. Passes.
Makes an Avoid Ammo Explosion Roll. Fails!
(A single round of LRM 20 ammo remains in the side torso.)
Applies the explosion damage with no additional crits and the mech survives.
Marks two pilot wounds and takes two conscious checks at 3+ and 5+, passing both.


• Hypothetical branch 1:  The pilot auto ejected.

Wounds for high heat is skipped — there is no pilot aboard.***
***(Obviously irrelevant for pickup play but important in campaign play. Have the same uncertainty as with ammo explosion above.)

Mech ends heat phase removed from the board.


• Hypothetical branch 2:  Auto eject was off — pilot remains aboard.

The player makes one PSR at +4 (+1 for 20+ damage, +3 for having shut down that phase.**.
**(I'm 99.9% sure this is correct though it feels a little weird not to get bit by the +1 on the previous PSR after auto-shutdown.)
Deals one wound to the pilot for high heat with no life support, their third.
Makes and fails a conscious check at 7+.

Mech ends heat phase standing but immobile.


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Re: (Answered) Simultaneous Heat Effects
« Reply #7 on: 27 March 2024, 18:20:08 »
Hi,

We'll be adding this clarifying errata.

Current
p.51 "For a given effect type, you only ever use the highest applicable Heat Scale effect"

AFTER THIS ADD:
Resolve the heat effects of Shutdown before the effects of Ammo Explosion and MechWarrior Damage
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