Author Topic: Battle Armor design advice  (Read 1242 times)

Primus203

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Battle Armor design advice
« on: 26 February 2024, 16:58:50 »
New to the forum guys got a question. So I'm building an inner sphere battle armor and I'm mostly happy with the result but I'm worried I have to little armor.
 
Its an assault weight with a armor rating of five. I know what did you do with all those kilos well the er medium laser is eight hundred kilos. Forty percent of my weight limit.

I've been considering dropping the er medium laser and replacing it with a regular medium laser and using the weight savings to go up to armor rating eleven. Thoughts on this? Got no where else I can really take the weight from.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #1 on: 26 February 2024, 17:10:11 »
Depends on the unit's mobility, a faster Fenrir type quadruped assault might be able to manage with such little armor. If it's slow though its probably dead meat, just can't cut it with the mobility advantage of a mech. Unless it has stealth armor, then maybe, but it's probably still dead meat. Unfortunately sans LRMs its difficult to cut it at range with the mobility disadvantages of Battle Armor.

Primus203

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #2 on: 26 February 2024, 17:46:41 »
Its an assault weight or max weight so it cant go past two movement I thought though am now unsure that battle armor could use the same cover as infantry so they would be moved to location by apc or vtol and used as much better infantry in support of infantry.

Edit: Didnt notice quad legs were a thing if i take a turretless quad leg i get up to four movement with similar gear as previous design and two armor or medium laser four movement and eight armor
« Last Edit: 26 February 2024, 18:02:16 by Primus203 »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #3 on: 27 February 2024, 02:06:27 »
Two armor is definitely not practical.  At that point you're getting suits picked off from AP Gauss Rifles.
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #4 on: 27 February 2024, 13:58:01 »
Either "speed is armor" or "armor is armor".  I'd drop the EMLs in favor of MLs if I were in your shoes as the BA is going to slow.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #5 on: 27 February 2024, 19:00:34 »
"Speed is armor" doesn't work for assault BA.  A quad assault BA with a medium laser is basically just the Fenrir II.
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Challenger

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #6 on: 27 February 2024, 19:50:04 »
My comments in the other thread not withstanding, I’d suggest MoneyLovinOgre4Hire is (pun unintended) on the money here.

I don’t think an assault suit, even a quad one, can move fast enough to rely upon its movement modifiers for protection.

I also think the ER Medium Laser doesn’t offer enough of an advantage over the basic medium to warrant the extra 300kg. I suggest the extra armour is a better bet in this case.

a Clan ER Medium Laser on the other hand would make for a nasty suit, abet with all the limitations you are probably noticing in terms of protection and speed.

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Dapper Apples

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #7 on: 28 February 2024, 00:46:02 »
Part of the Fenrir's durability isn't necessarily the evasiveness, they also pack enough firepower to be worth shooting at.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #8 on: 28 February 2024, 01:26:25 »
Wouldn't that mean they have a lack of durability?
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OatsAndHall

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #9 on: 28 February 2024, 11:40:51 »
FWIW, I'd put fire-resistant armor on the unit as well. That way, you can move them into woods for cover and potentially pull a +3 target modifier.

idea weenie

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #10 on: 02 March 2024, 14:33:03 »
I tend to go with max armor, because on the heaviest BA your armor is your armor.

Build your BA with missile launchers.  They are much smaller than the Mech-mounted launchers, so you can get a lot of them.

Limited ammunition for the weapons also lets you know when it is time to make those BA retreat, vs an energy-armed BA tempting you to keep it in place for 'just one more shot' and getting the BA unit destroyed by enemy fire.

Cannonshop

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #11 on: 03 March 2024, 05:35:57 »
New to the forum guys got a question. So I'm building an inner sphere battle armor and I'm mostly happy with the result but I'm worried I have to little armor.
 
Its an assault weight with a armor rating of five. I know what did you do with all those kilos well the er medium laser is eight hundred kilos. Forty percent of my weight limit.

I've been considering dropping the er medium laser and replacing it with a regular medium laser and using the weight savings to go up to armor rating eleven. Thoughts on this? Got no where else I can really take the weight from.

Assault weight...armor of FIVE??

Okay, go back to the drawing board and find out what you've got that's redundant and taking up space and capacity.  Oh, you already did that, and you likely already know your answer.
an armor f 5 is okay for a light suit, marginal on a medium, but on an assault? not so good.

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Sabelkatten

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #12 on: 23 March 2024, 08:07:16 »
As people say, on an assault BA "armor is armor". Unless you're using stealth you should go for 15 points - less than that and you can usually make a nearly equivalent heavy BA.

But given what you stated in the OP (Assault BA, ERML) I'd suggest you look at reducing speed and using advanced (40kg/point) armor.


Empyrus

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #13 on: 23 March 2024, 08:58:18 »
For Battle Armor particularly, one probably should consider certain "breakpoints", weapons they are expected to face. Noteworthy ones are 5, 7, 8, 10 and 15.

Inner Sphere medium lasers are common, and being able to survive some multiple of them is valuable. The original Fenrir's armor (value 5) is arguably a failure as it can only take one medium laser hit before any damage will kill the suit.
For the Clans, multiples of 7 are notable due to their ER medium laser and medium pulse laser having that damage value, though in modern day the Inner Sphere factions also need to be mindful of this.
Depending, people probably want to save bigger guns bigger targets and only utilize medium laser types against battle armor commonly, perhaps with follow-up SRMs or LRMs or LB-X cluster shots. For Inner Sphere, large lasers and light Gauss rifles are common enough it is reasonable to expect those being used against BA as well.

Suit weaponry also matters. If you have more reach than most of your opponents, you can get by with lesser armor. An assault suit with LRMs is reasonably safe. To be sure, big guns like ERPPCs and Gauss rifles are likely to kill them if they have low armor, but BA LRMs aren't terribly powerful so if the enemy is wasting high power shots on your battle armor, your other units are that much safer. Of course actually having reach with battle armor is very difficult, and in many cases your weapons merely match what your targets have.

There is some argument for not bothering to armor assault battle armor too heavily: Infernos. You lose a suit for every infernos that strike battle armor, regardless of their weight class, making assault battle armor prime targets for inferno missiles. This is not a problem if you have access to Fire Resistant Armor, though that is Clan-tech.

Since battle armor cannot reach high Target Movement Modifiers easily, all battle armor do need armor. Speed is not life. Lesser probably armor should be compensated with stealth or mimetic armor, or camo module if possible. Specialty armor types are are also an option, reflective armor for example allows even measly 6 points to survive two Inner Sphere medium lasers for example.

In my opinion:
-Medium combat suits should aim to have at least 8 points of armor, though you can get by with 7 if the expected opponents are using Clan weapons and you get something nice for the freed weight. The Salamander is a good example.
-Heavy suits will usually want 10 or more armor, otherwise you're very much a glass cannon or kind of OmniMech-portable turret/minefield (like the Phalanx for example).
-Assault suits will want minimum of 10 armor, though with minimum-only your suit will be somewhat ambush-oriented. The more firepower your suit has, the more priority target it will be. Battle armor slot limitations also mean you can only so much firepower, so there isn't too much reason to skimp on protection deliberately.
- Should be noted the decision between heavy and assault suit essentially boils down to question: Do you want the suit to be OmniMech-portable or are you fine with being limited to transport vehicles? (This ignoring BV and C-bill cost concerns).
-Spotter, special operations, or utility battle armor can get by with lesser armor (5 or 6 for medium), though they will almost certainly want some kind of stealth to compensate. But even then too little is not good, you don't want your enemy to hunt them because they have low armor. Light battle armor tend to fall into this class automatically.

A special note:
If your suit is slow (planned to be 1MP only), Detachable Weapon Pack allows cutting weapon weight (and slots) down considerably, though it does require giving the suit at least 2MP as DWP cuts that down to 1MP until jettisoned. Particularly useful for quad assault battle armor that get 2MP for free.

Colt Ward

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #14 on: 23 March 2024, 09:50:50 »
Late to the party but . . .

One thing I have not seen mentioned- what TYPE of armor?  Someone brought up fire resist, and to go in woods, but with such slow BA you want the most advantages possible.  You will only get a +1 for being a BA, nothing for movement.  They have to be transported in APCs of some sort . . .

I suggest looking at Improved Stealth or better- gets you a +1/+2/+3 at ranges so that even if something gets close you still have protection.
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Paul

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #15 on: 26 March 2024, 00:03:41 »
though am now unsure that battle armor could use the same cover as infantry so they would be moved to location by apc or vtol and used as much better infantry in support of infantry.

That's an extremely expensive way to get a small, slow turret to support your infantry.
Assault BA barely deserves to exist, but its big trick should be something similar to the Kanazuchi where they just. Won't. Die.
Yours will have amazing firepower, but they will be extremely easy to destroy by common anti-BA weapons like the medium pulse laser. I would say you should not make an assault BA with less than 7 armor, but more is definitely better.

On the plus side: no point in investing in batteries for the main laser, since they will only get to shoot it once.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

Colt Ward

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #16 on: 26 March 2024, 00:17:17 »
Yeah, I rarely go outside of medium suits b/c you get the best blend of mobility, firepower and armor.  If the terrain is tight & BV matters, I might grab some GDL Scouts or Kage- the lower armor threshold is offset by the ability to jump 4 hexes to get in those leg attacks.

With medium BA jumping 3 gets you the best THN- +1 jump, +1 BA, +1 hexes moved- in addition to any other defensive option.  Additionally, being able to drop off VTOL to land in a hex w/o the VTOL landing gets you +2 TH which can be supported by woods if you are not dropping out of LOS.


Though I admit, I am personally hoping we get SOME sort of improvement for the Ogre BA . . . SRM2 with a DEEP ammo bin . . . it needs a improvement in armor type IMO.  The description just appealed to me so when I run Regulans or League in general I try to use it.

As for assault BA . . . I mean, get the assault BA platoon of 2 squads Hauberks and some ML/SRM spammer for the 3rd squad.  You have 2 hard to hit LRM20 batteries with some decent close in protection.  Pretty much the definition of terrain denial if your LRMs have decent gunners.  And for assault squads always remember, AM (Piloting) skill 8!  Since they cannot do anti-mech attacks, why spend the BV there?
Colt Ward
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Minemech

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #17 on: 26 March 2024, 10:29:02 »

Though I admit, I am personally hoping we get SOME sort of improvement for the Ogre BA . . . SRM2 with a DEEP ammo bin . . . it needs a improvement in armor type IMO.  The description just appealed to me so when I run Regulans or League in general I try to use it.

  The Elsies also have them canonically, and the VM.

Colt Ward

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #18 on: 26 March 2024, 17:43:29 »
Sure, they went on the merc open market.  But I do not play Lyrans or . . . VM?
Colt Ward
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Minemech

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #19 on: 26 March 2024, 18:22:23 »
Sure, they went on the merc open market.  But I do not play Lyrans or . . . VM?
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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #20 on: 26 March 2024, 18:30:23 »
Another option is to put the weapon in one of those disposable weapon mounts (I forget what it's called, but it reduces the weight at the expense of 1MP movement) and use Mimetic Armor which also doesn't want you to move fast.
See the Taranis as an example of what I am talking about.
You "might" be able to pull off the ERML & increase your armor & defensive mods via camo.
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Minemech

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Re: Battle Armor design advice
« Reply #21 on: 26 March 2024, 18:51:53 »
Another option is to put the weapon in one of those disposable weapon mounts (I forget what it's called, but it reduces the weight at the expense of 1MP movement) and use Mimetic Armor which also doesn't want you to move fast.
See the Taranis as an example of what I am talking about.
You "might" be able to pull off the ERML & increase your armor & defensive mods via camo.
Such is the path of a heavy suit.