Kickstarter Discussion Thread

[Firesprocket]

Like most of the previous discussions a BattleTech Kickstarter, this is quickly turning into “My personal wish list of stuff I’d like to see.”

Conversely for some of us this is turning into 'why won't do X as a Kickstarter'.  Pardon me as it isn't my intention to take all my angst out on you or anyone else, but I want to be able to go into my FLGS and buy product and/or see it available for others to buy.  I travel quite a bit to play a game and while I enjoy myself a decent amount, it is simply dejecting to have same conversation over and over again with folks who come up to my table.  To paraphrase:  'Battletech? I haven't played that in years, I didn't know it was still around.'

Is there legitimately anything we can do outside of what is already being done to just get stuff on shelves with a KS?  I'm happy there will soon be a box set out, but if that box set never arrives in my FLGS to point folks to buy, it makes it difficult for me to do the simple task of being a promoter.

[Bedwyr]

Basically it comes down to:

1) Gears are getting unstuck and people are in place to get the BT pipeline moving. You can see the first results beginning to flow as we speak. Extend the analogy and think of it like a multi-state pipeline flowing at a slow rate before ramping up as the pipeline's engineers hold their breath that the systems they designed hold together.

2) There is room for volunteerism, but not in a business development sense. If you want to get the store to stock BT and get your local community aware of new products, we need your help doggedly building a playing community at that store. The agent program is probably the most useful way to network and get help for doing this. If you want to do writing or art then practice, get good, and solicit advice from others doing the same thing about getting your (professional quality) work in front of the right people.

It's not wrong to discuss the business angle, but it's more to the benefit of conversation participants learning and understanding the limitations of small businesses rather than contributing ideas to the people running things. Almost by definition they (the ptbs) know more than the group in this thread (they're the ones with the sales data and size of the actual market). On rare occasions that's not true, but usually it is. That doesn't mean the ptbs don't screw up, but that they have the expertise and sit in the driver's seat. Sometimes they'll look for tidbits that passed them by but usually nearly all of the advice is known and discussed already. Reasons for not seeing your favorite product in production will vary from things you can predict to things that would never have crossed your mind.

[sadlerbw]

Honestly, I'm not sure that we do all understand this.

I want to see this game do well just as much of the rest of you guys, but, as an observation, there are a lot of people posting in this thread as if starting a Kickstarter campaign is the production equivalent of a magic wand.  Even if the project gets funded, CGL still has to deal with all of the behind the scenes stuff, like manufacturers, printers, shipping, delays, etc.  We, as a community, already have a pretty low tolerance for product delays.  I don't think I want to see the community fallout from delays of products that were crowd funded, whether or not the delays were outside of CGL's ability to control.

I understand that, which was why I only suggested it for a Combat Manual and not a different product. CGL has already proven to us and to themselves that they know how to and can produce that exact type of product. They have a fairly good idea of timing and costs because it is not something radically different than what they already produce. Also, despite me linking the CM series, I thought it fit well into the plan to attract new players, so it wasn't even 100% selfish. Just, maybe 83% selfish!

Now, I'm going to sound rude saying this but I don't mean it in an angry way: it isn't like CGL isn't fully capable of big time estimation misses with non-kickstarted proucts. I doubt they would do any worse with Kickstarter. How long have we been waiting on IlClan? Is it six years now? Putting that aside, remember how much got pruned off the coming releases list this year? How long was that stuff up there, including whole product lines, that never came out at all? Lets not pretend CGL isn't fully capable of missing deadlines and over-promising even without kickstarter involved. Also, avoiding crowd funding is not going to keep fans from being pissed at how long it takes to produce a given product. CGL suffers that wrath no matter how they fund things, so that doesn't seem like it would really be much of a deterrent. Sure it's different when customer money is involved up front, but I was only half joking when I said people would expect delivery to be late if they did a Kickstarter.

Lastly, I fully realize that a crowd-funded continuation of the CM series is not in the cards, and it is unlikely anything I have said changed any minds at CGL. Doesn't mean I will stop pushing to find ways to resurrect the CM series, but I do understand that I am just one person nagging on a single social media channel. All told, maybe five or six people also voiced support for the CM's in this thread, and I know that isn't enough to matter. I take no offense at being ignored or repeatedly told 'no' by TPB. Hopefully my 'persistance' doesn't annoy them too much though, because I'm not willing to let the CM's die yet!

[Adrian Gideon]

A key difference between what you list and a Kickstarter, is money changing hands.

[sadlerbw]

A key difference between what you list and a Kickstarter, is money changing hands.

I don't disagree. That certainly is a very important distinction.

[SteveRestless]

Aren't there crowdfunding sites that return your money when a product fails to launch?

[nckestrel]

Aren't there crowdfunding sites that return your money when a product fails to launch?

Kickstarter doesn't take your money unless the KS meets its minimum.
But if you mean a site that returns your money five years later when the project is finally officially dead...Where's that money going to come from?  If they had the money to refund everybody, they could make the product.  The whole point is the money is gone.

[DarkSpade]

Aren't there crowdfunding sites that return your money when a product fails to launch?

The thing to remember with most(if not all) crowdfunding sites is that you are NOT preordering product.  You're making in investment in a company that wishes to produce a product and your reward is said product instead of money.

Many crowdfunding places have safe guards in place to take away some of the risk, but they're still not 100% guaranteed.  Really, you should remember any time you crowdfund that their is a real chance you'll never get a full return on your investment.

[Colt Ward]

Speculation might be a better word . . .

[Greatclub]

The kickstarter model isn't a new thing. It's actually pretty old. It was just illegal for the longest time because it had a bad habit of eating people's savings for no return.

If you don't understand that you're taking a risk when supporting a kickstarter, you need to give up your account. I'm out a couple hundred on projects, but I knew it could happen going in. I figure one was because the guy was to inexperienced combined with a runaround by his suppliers, and others were too optimistic. I suspect malice in no case, though the inevitable subsequent cover-up is irritating.

00000

I've been trying to run demo games. Not sure any orders will result, but I've played a few people.

centurian and spider on victor, Open Terrain maps. Usually results in a broken spider and victor.
3 Jenner variants VS an awesome, Deep Canyon maps. Awesome gets chewed up either way.

[Panthros]

Kickstarter is an opportunity for Catalyst Games to interact with their customers.  It is an opportunity for their customers to use their money to drive the things they want.  Catalyst Games gets an influx of cash early to then properly get the end product we all want.  A lot of people want a Clan Box set, though Catalyst games seems not be interested or dragging their feet.  A stretch goal could be a Clan battle manual like Kurita and the Mercenaries. 

Catalyst Games needs to move with the times. All you have to do is look what Monte Games is doing with Kickstarter, Modiphius and others to get a clear indication on the direction Catalyst Games should be moving in.  The fiasco that was Gencon for the box sets would never have happened.  People were buying multiple boxes, I should not have needed to wait in a 4 hour line to pick up those boxes.  I would have ordered through Kickstarter and they would have been shipped to me and perhaps gotten a few extra models if they hit their stretch goals.

So instead of Catalyst Games engaging me as a consumer, they have a frustrated customer!

[ColBosch]

Y'all keep assuming that money is the biggest limiter on what CGL can produce. ;D

[Panthros]

Y'all keep assuming that money is the biggest limiter on what CGL can produce. ;D

The up front money is a bonus.  The reason to do Kickstarter is to engage your customers.  This is sales 101.  The more engaged your customers are, the more they will spend.  You need to build loyalty and attention when there are so many other games to give people's attention to. 

[Greatclub]

The profit margin on kickstartered product is less, due to the discount most patrons demand of a kickstart. Then people who backed don't buy the finished, full price product.

Any engagement is usually nullified by people whining about the near-universal delays.

[Panthros]

The profit margin on kickstartered product is less, due to the discount most patrons demand of a kickstart. Then people who backed don't buy the finished, full price product.

Any engagement is usually nullified by people whining about the near-universal delays.

Where are you getting your information from? It sounds anecdotal. If you cannot confirm this data point, its not useful to the conversation.

[worktroll]

The reason to do Kickstarter is to engage your customers. 

Umm, I have a divergent opinion. Kickstarters allow companies with existing unused skills and production capabilities to achieve projects they could not otherwise afford to do. Successful kickstarters have all the resources - except cash - to hand before starting.

If a company like CGL is fully committed resource-wise already, then no pile of cash can produce more product, without stopping doing work already in progress.

W

[guardiandashi]

from what I am hearing from TPTB the biggest issue with a kickstarter is that most of us fans are unrealistic about how it works from a business pov.

lets say for instance that we are proposing that catalyst does a kickstarter to produce aerotech 3 boxed set.

for catalyst they first have to get an idea what said at3 would cost per unit lets say the contents would cost ~30/unit and they would need 100k units to make a reasonable return.  that means they would have to set the base target at ~330k or so (assuming the kickstarter process takes 10% as a handling fee) and any "stretch goals" would add to the cost such as replacing cardboard counters with plastic minis at a certain price point. getting your name inserted as a character, etc.

on the other hand lets say that Catalyst was pricing out a print press that would allow them to make maps on cardstock in house that was going to cost 300k if we set the retail price of a mapset on paper at $20, and on the proposed cardstock at $30 and that if the kickstarter raised enough to pay for enough of a production run to pay for the price of the print press (and the operators wages) then that might be a reasonable use of a kickstarter because they would still have the print press so they could produce future map sets in house rather than having to outsource them (assuming it made the production costs enough lower to make it a good investment)

for a related example, if IWM decided to offer a plastics line of miniatures as well, then it might make sense for them to run a kickstarter to get the capital to purchase the plastic injection mold machine and a few mold sets to get the new line started but not for ongoing operations.

[pheonixstorm]

I don't think a KS could fund the molds plus machines. Not for a reasonable amount to at least break even. The molds alone, yes, but not for everything.

lets say for instance that we are proposing that catalyst does a kickstarter to produce aerotech 3 boxed set.

for catalyst they first have to get an idea what said at3 would cost per unit lets say the contents would cost ~30/unit and they would need 100k units to make a reasonable return.  that means they would have to set the base target at ~330k or so (assuming the kickstarter process takes 10% as a handling fee) and any "stretch goals" would add to the cost such as replacing cardboard counters with plastic minis at a certain price point. getting your name inserted as a character, etc.

This is pretty much what I have been saying. But, let us not forget that while CGL may spend 30 each unit they would not charge so little in the KS page. Looking at it from a more realistic perspective though. $10 to produce, sold to distributor at 15 maybe 20, sold to FLGS at 30-40 and retails for 60. CGL wants to produce 1000 units so would need 10,000. Just for production cost. Now we need to think about mold costs which could be between 20-50k. Add that up and you would need to settle on about 70k for startup costs and a possible 10% fee to KS. If you can get about 1200 backers you are good to go. Anything over that amount is profit. To make more you can look into tier rewards and extra sets but that could also affect the profitability of the overall KS and cut into money needed for actual production costs.

The profit margin on kickstartered product is less, due to the discount most patrons demand of a kickstart. Then people who backed don't buy the finished, full price product.

For what product?? The last KS I backed it was full retail. The difference? The extras I get as a backer.

Case in point, a KS I didn't know about that just ended earlier this year. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cmon/zombicide-invader

[Cubby]

Y'all keep assuming that money is the biggest limiter on what CGL can produce. ;D

I wonder how many more times I'm going to have to explain that.

If a company like CGL is fully committed resource-wise already, then no pile of cash can produce more product, without stopping doing work already in progress.

Right. I'm saying: butter, bread.

I take no offense at being ignored or repeatedly told 'no' by TPB. Hopefully my 'persistance' doesn't annoy them too much though, because I'm not willing to let the CM's die yet!

Speaking only for myself, I've got nothing against the CMs specifically. My name is in both of them and I put a lot of heart and soul into standardizing some of the presentation and terminology. I've got love.

What I do have something against is products that are unprofitable OR which do not grow the customer base. Meaning, top-of-the-funnel products that boost overall revenue for the line and, long-term, actually make the bottom of the funnel projects more feasible.

This includes products that may be successful on their own terms, but which hoover up production resources and create a critically damaging opportunity cost. It's possible that KS or some other mechanism could improve the CM profit picture to where they're feasible to resume producing. But if the writing, art, layout, editing, and development time spent to produce them causes delays or cancellations of product critical to sustaining the line, then a KS for the CMs or whatever other bottom-funnel wish-list project could be a tactical success and a strategic blunder, so to speak.

What I'm trying to say, several times now, is that there are real bandwidth limitations among the production staff. Funding does not guarantee success.

[Adrian Gideon]

Y'all keep assuming that money is the biggest limiter on what CGL can produce. ;D

;D

[nckestrel]

But if the writing, art, layout, editing, and development time spent to produce them ... is that there are real bandwidth limitations among the production staff. Funding does not guarantee success.

*checks credits on Combat Manuals*
Hmm.  I think I see the problem.
We need a Kickstarter to clone Ray.

[ColBosch]

*checks credits on Combat Manuals*
Hmm.  I think I see the problem.
We need a Kickstarter to clone Ray.

I've been saying this for a decade.

[Sartris]

Umm, I have a divergent opinion. Kickstarters allow companies with existing unused skills and production capabilities to achieve projects they could not otherwise afford to do. Successful kickstarters have all the resources - except cash - to hand before starting.

If a company like CGL is fully committed resource-wise already, then no pile of cash can produce more product, without stopping doing work already in progress.

W

But... what if I throw money HARDER at the problem? Will it work then?

[ColBosch]

I should say that I'm not opposed to the idea of a Kickstarter campaign. I wouldn't be taking part, because I'm not buying anymore hardcopy BattleTech products, but if they were to happen, then great. I just think people need to be more realistic about what Kickstarter is and how it works.

[Sartris]

Amusingly, I got an email about a CGL kickstarter for their Super Camelot boardgame

[ColBosch]

Amusingly, I got an email about a CGL kickstarter for their Super Camelot boardgame

Yeah, three days before it's scheduled to end, so no way I can budget anything towards it, even if I was interested in Yet Another Retro Pixel Art Boardgame. And ugh, that art makes my eyes hurt. I keep trying to focus but can't.

[Panthros]

Amusingly, I got an email about a CGL kickstarter for their Super Camelot boardgame

SO CGL is doing a Kickstarter on a product that nobody cares about?  I am sorry, 326 backers.  Seriously?  Modiphius has had successful Kickstarters for RPG books and thousands of people backed them.  Give the people what they want!

[RoundTop]

CGL is the publisher for it, but lynnvader is the ones running it and the game looks like someone else developed it.

[trboturtle]

*checks credits on Combat Manuals*
Hmm.  I think I see the problem.
We need a Kickstarter to clone Ray.

Ray's third or fourth on the cloning list... Randall is first because we need about eight or ten clones of him right at the start... Then Brent, Ray, Phil, and a couple of others.......

Craig

[trboturtle]

On a more serious note, and my opinion only, with no insider information (Most of us are Sergeant Schutlzs....)

I think Catalyst is cautious about Kickstarters. The two they have done recently have Catalyst partnering up with another company. Right now, they are learning about the process, getting a feel for the process, and seeing if it's worth doing for other products.

Even if Catalyst goes into using KS for Battletech products, I wouldn't expect to see any for a while. Should they go that route with a product, I would expect something with the widest appeal possible. The Shadowrun BG they just finished on Kickstarter --- while it's better to know the universe and its lore, it's not necessary to enjoy playing the BG. They are not going to have a KS for niche products, but ones that the fanbase and beyond will have the most interest in. As to what products, I don't know -- that is all decided at much higher levels.

Craig