Aluminum can 'do it all.

[agen2]

I've decided to ban the cans from the choice of my purchases.
To get a can is a waste of resources I think that goes to the point of insanity (I'm optimistic).

[cray]

I'm not sure I follow the thinking. What's wasteful about it?

Most aluminum is manufactured in nations that are primarily hydroelectric-powered, like Canada, Brazil, Norway, and Argentina, so even its high electrical demands are not overly polluting. Unlike most materials, the ability to be extracted by pure electricity allows easy "clean" manufacture of aluminum with all manner of renewable energy sources, unlike, say, steel, which is most easily extracted with the assistance of a lot of carbon and sees enormous amounts of CO2 production. The main aluminum ore is bauxite, which is just aluminum, oxygen, and hydrogen, so there's not a significant waste stream.

And aluminum is so recyclable. It takes only 5% as much energy to recycle aluminum as it does to make it in the first place, and its a lossless recycling. Aluminum recycling covers about a third of aluminum needs, representing over 10 million tons of fresh aluminum annually.

Aluminum doesn't kill wild life. It doesn't form big patches in the ocean, it doesn't poison the land, it doesn't choke seabirds and baby seals. Aluminum cans might give goats indigestion, but since they seem fine with tin and steel cans I wouldn't worry about aluminum.

Finally, unlike a lot of resources, aluminum is abundant. Its 8% of Earth's crust by weight.

[Fallen_Raven]

Aluminum is also one of the easiest materials to get recycled. Even if you don't have a municipal pickup program, finding a private recycling center is very easy, or a junk metal buyer can be found most anywhere. And the cans have the added bonus of being cheaper for the production companies to boot. (That last part I was told by a friend who works at a botteling plant.)

[agen2]

I'm not sure I follow the thinking. What's wasteful about it?

Most aluminum is manufactured in nations that are primarily hydroelectric-powered, like Canada, Brazil, Norway, and Argentina, so even its high electrical demands are not overly polluting. Unlike most materials, the ability to be extracted by pure electricity allows easy "clean" manufacture of aluminum with all manner of renewable energy sources, unlike, say, steel, which is most easily extracted with the assistance of a lot of carbon and sees enormous amounts of CO2 production. The main aluminum ore is bauxite, which is just aluminum, oxygen, and hydrogen, so there's not a significant waste stream.

And aluminum is so recyclable. It takes only 5% as much energy to recycle aluminum as it does to make it in the first place, and its a lossless recycling. Aluminum recycling covers about a third of aluminum needs, representing over 10 million tons of fresh aluminum annually.

Aluminum doesn't kill wild life. It doesn't form big patches in the ocean, it doesn't poison the land, it doesn't choke seabirds and baby seals. Aluminum cans might give goats indigestion, but since they seem fine with tin and steel cans I wouldn't worry about aluminum.

Finally, unlike a lot of resources, aluminum is abundant. Its 8% of Earth's crust by weight.

Before today I consumed a can from time to time, so 'to cheer hard times of the day, but since I have banned the content of fluorine and apparently the cans are full.
Another reason is that it is transported to an endless' of times (I do not limit myself to a simple extraction, but the actual manufacture of the can.) Value added by transport and various speculations as well these products connect all the countries you listed

[cray]

Before today I consumed a can from time to time, so 'to cheer hard times of the day, but since I have banned the content of fluorine and apparently the cans are full.

No, aluminum does not use fluorine. It uses fluoride compounds, which are different things.

Aluminum refining from raw ore uses fluoride salts (cryolite and calcium fluoride) in refining, and those stay in the refinery. There's no fluoride compounds in the cans.

Another reason is that it is transported to an endless' of times (I do not limit myself to a simple extraction, but the actual manufacture of the can.)

I'm currently primarily employed on US Air Force projects funded with the intent of reducing the environmental impact of existing toxins in USAF systems, so I'm familiar with cradle-to-grave environmental impact assessments.

Regarding transport, have you compared aluminum's transport costs to that of its replacements?

[ShadowRaven]

and what are the replacement options? I'm not an expert, but I can not think of a single product that meets the balance of weight, strength, and ability to be shaped to suit whatever needs while still being easily recycled, and generally affordable.

[cray]

and what are the replacement options? I'm not an expert, but I can not think of a single product that meets the balance of weight, strength, and ability to be shaped to suit whatever needs while still being easily recycled, and generally affordable.

I'm not sure reusable cloth cans would work... ;)

Aluminum is generally a "green" material unto itself. While I'm a fan of steel, aluminum definitely can drop the weight of cars, cutting their lifetime environmental impact; the same goes for many vehicular steel applications. Its corrosion resistance and lower weight make it substantially better for cans than steel. Alternatives with similar properties are plastics, which tend to be an even bigger environmental boogieman.

[ShadowRaven]

reuseable cloth cans eh? brilliant. I will begin development imediatley. i'll even give you a cut of the profits :D

[sir_spamalot]

The beginning of this thread does seem confusing.... points already made about how reusable it is and impact... heck, if I could get more tall soda cans I'd probably cut out the bottles entirely since 20 oz is the most I might purchase at once.

[agen2]

and what are the replacement options? I'm not an expert, but I can not think of a single product that meets the balance of weight, strength, and ability to be shaped to suit whatever needs while still being easily recycled, and generally affordable.

If you are sitting on a bar of a whatever place than order a local homebrew glass bottle of beer. :)

[ShadowRaven]

If I'm drinking beer, it will be in a glass bottle, because that's the only way the beers I like can be had. If I'm buying a case of Popsi it'll be canned.

[cray]

If you are sitting on a bar of a whatever place than order a local homebrew glass bottle of beer. :)

Glass manufacturing and recycling have higher energy costs and CO2 production than aluminum, particularly since glass manufacture generally uses fossil fuels vs the hydroelectric power behind so much aluminum production. Glass bottles are also heavier to transport from their centralized factory than aluminum cans for the same volume of liquids. At the end of its life, glass requires more energy to recycle because of its much higher melting point than aluminum.

I think someone's fed you a line about the environmental impact of aluminum, agen.

[Daemonknight228]

Well I don't know how expensive it is, perhaps Cray knows, but Titanium has many of the same properties of Aluminum(low density, corrorsion resistant).

Molybdenum has a high corrosion resistance, and its also extremely resistant to heat(it has the 6th highest melting point of all known elements), aswell as being used in alloys that require both heat and corrosion resistance.

Vanadium provides another source of corrosion resisitance.

Iridium, while suffering from being the 2nd denest metal behind osmium, has the highest corrosion resistance, even at ultra-high heats.

While unable to be used as a construction material(structurally at any rate, that I know of), Platinum has alot of Aluminum's properties aswell.

[agen2]

I think someone's fed you a line about the environmental impact of aluminum, agen.

Yes I have seen something, but that did not relate specifically aluminum.
Of course it is important to have balance and  sometimes I veered into extremism, eco-freak, but my basic idea would be the self-consumer and sharing.
In addition I have little faith: we live in a global system in which nations will exchange tons of biscuits.
Why not share the recipe?

[Fnord]

Before today I consumed a can from time to time, so 'to cheer hard times of the day, but since I have banned the content of fluorine and apparently the cans are full.

Why are you so afraid of fluorine? I've heard plenty of conspiracy theories about the dangers of fluoride/fluorine, and while I sure as heck would not want to come into contact with pure F₂ (fluorine), fluoride is not a highly toxic substance. Too much is not a good thing, of course, but low amounts is not dangerous.

On the topic of environmental impact, consuming less is generally a good thing, but you also have to look at what you consume, and its impact on nature. Do a life cycle analysis of the products that you consume if you have the time. You will find that aluminum products are far from the worst offenders when it comes to CO₂, NO_X & sulfur emissions.

[cray]

In addition I have little faith: we live in a global system in which nations will exchange tons of biscuits.
Why not share the recipe?

Because it costs less to ship the biscuits than manufacture them locally. Rail and water transport are very energy- and cost-efficient. Why inefficiently, expensively duplicate cookie factories when you can gain the economies of scale of one centralized factory?

I know its a popular idea that little local microbreweries and craft shops and stores are more eco-friendly than the evil giant centralized factories, but those centralized factories are more efficient with energy, resources, and money than an equal capacity of little local stores. Economies of scale are why urban living is more energy- and resource-efficient than a rural population of the same size. There are times when the central factory has disadvantages, but they often make a lot of sense - and not just to your wallet.

Well I don't know how expensive it is, perhaps Cray knows, but Titanium has many of the same properties of Aluminum(low density, corrorsion resistant).

Titanium is quite expensive and is twice as dense as aluminum. It's not going to replace aluminum or steel in cheap, bulk applications.

Molybdenum has a high corrosion resistance, and its also extremely resistant to heat(it has the 6th highest melting point of all known elements), aswell as being used in alloys that require both heat and corrosion resistance.

Rare, expensive, and denser than steel. Molybdenum is a great alloying element, but not something often used alone, and not as a replacement for materials used in huge quantities like aluminum or steel.

Vanadium provides another source of corrosion resisitance.

Rare and expensive. It's not going to substitute for common industrial metals like aluminum or steel.

Iridium, while suffering from being the 2nd denest metal behind osmium, has the highest corrosion resistance, even at ultra-high heats.

Extremely rare and extremely expensive. You're not going to make soda cans out of it.

While unable to be used as a construction material(structurally at any rate, that I know of), Platinum has alot of Aluminum's properties aswell.

See comments on iridium.

[agen2]

Why are you so afraid of fluorine? I've heard plenty of conspiracy theories about the dangers of fluoride/fluorine, and while I sure as heck would not want to come into contact with pure F₂ (fluorine), fluoride is not a highly toxic substance. Too much is not a good thing, of course, but low amounts is not dangerous.

Is a decree that establishes the level of non-toxicity '. When this will increase' in any supposed aquifer also the decree will be modified.

[Daemonknight228]

Extremely rare and extremely expensive. You're not going to make soda cans out of it.

I didn't mean for soda cans. I meant in general use, and i wasn't sure how rare or expensive any of those were

[cray]

Is a decree that establishes the level of non-toxicity '. When this will increase' in any supposed aquifer also the decree will be modified.

The non-toxicity of which fluorine compound? Each fluorine compound is different, and they're all different from elemental fluorine. Some are toxic and corrosive, some are inert.

Name the compound and I'll find the material safety data sheet.

I didn't mean for soda cans. I meant in general use, and i wasn't sure how rare or expensive any of those were

Iridium and platinum are both very expensive platinum-group metals ($5000-1000/oz), and some of the rarest elements in Earth's crust. Titanium ore is pretty common, but there's no cheap-n-easy production method akin to aluminum; it's also a pain in the butt to work (machine, forge, roll, drill, etc.) compared to steel and aluminum. Vanadium and molybdenum are relatively rare by the standards of industrial metals; at $30 a kilogram, moly's about 100 times more expensive than cheap steels.

If there was a cheap-n-easy replacement for iron, aluminum, and/or plastic, it'd be all around you.

[Wombat]

Wasteful or not, easily recycled or not, the aluminum can is one of the most pleasurable things to drink an ice-cold Pepsi from. That alone makes it worth it. I mean, I don't buy beverages to make you happy, I buy them to make me happy...so best to maximize my experience.

[Fnord]

Is a decree that establishes the level of non-toxicity '. When this will increase' in any supposed aquifer also the decree will be modified.

I take it that you are thinking about Fluoride (F^-), the substance that you sometimes see people complain about being added to the drinking water (they actually add NaF). Large quantities of F^- is not healthy, it can cause stomach problems, but high quantities can also result in muscle spasms and in severe cases bone deformation (in children). It has similar effects on both animals & humans. But we are talking about very large quantities of fluoride for most of these.

[Drop Bear]

Don't Can the Can, you can get Cash back for them in quantity. My Parents recycle Aluminium for the Grand kids, each of the Munchkins gets a couple of hundred banked for them every month to six weeks or so. we cash them in so much the guy at the Metal Recyclers has told us next time we bring in a load he's going to have to report us to the TAX man.

[Daemonknight228]

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in MA, you pay that 5c return upfront when you buy the cans and bottles.

[Drop Bear]

Hear in OZ, SA gives 10c a can or you can recycle by Weight anywhere in the nation and they will take any Aluminium from soft drink cans, old pots Truck Bull-bars and Tipper bodies, one guy I know handed in the bulk of a M-113 outer shell and made a tidy profit.

[Weirdo]

Also, sodas from cans just plain taste better. Personal preference, but still. O0

[Sigma]

Bauxite is everywhere too. Hell, we even have towns and cities named after it in the South. We don't mine our own ore here anymore though. Not when the Caribbean and  GoM countries folks make it so darn affordable.

Cheap to manufacture, cheaper to recycle, plentiful, environmentally friendly, what's not to like?

The only problem that anyone could have would be the acidity of the soda etc. putting Al2+ into solution (or is it 3+, it's late and my brain's fried) but most manufacturers coat the inside of the cans with a light safety varnish to prevent that.

Fluorine compounds are used as a flux BTW in Aluminum manufacturing. Cray pretty much said this but I never get to use flux in its proper context so I want to say flux anyhow.

This sounds like some silly knee-jerk reaction thing than a real idea. You know what my folks always said about opinions? "If you haven't thought it through, if you haven't researched it yourself, if you don't have at least 3 good reasons, then it's worth nothing." Something I've taken to heart.

Personally I prefer glass bottles for special stuff because it's a classic luxury I enjoy. Day to day diet soda and cheap beer? Bring on the cans!

All this reminds me of the goofballs I had to listen to from the east when I got my Masters that thought all cows were brought up in feedlots with conditions like a pig farm and wouldn't listen to me when I came from a farm family with a 2,000 acre ranch. Ugh...Not directed at the OP but the kind of people that come up with these ideas and spread them around.

EDIT: And aren't Aluminum cans the second most recycled product ever? Right behind Lead Acid batteries at around 50%? At 5% power to recycle vs. manufacture, that's magnificent!

[Taurevanime]

Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that the vast majority of Iridium on earth actually comes from meteorites. And that is why it is so rare. In fact it's so rare you'd be hard pressed to find another less common element.

[worktroll]

You know what my folks always said about opinions? "If you haven't thought it through, if you haven't researched it yourself, if you don't have at least 3 good reasons, then it's worth nothing." Something I've taken to heart.

Not aiming this at anyone in thread, but ... so true. I remember the husband of one of my wife's friends wearing a prominently logo'ed T-shirt for "Cause X". So I asked him "Oh, so you support Cause X - which of the many intelligent reasons for doing so convinced you?" He said ... "I just liked the colour." So he'd basically branded himself like Bruce Willis in (IIRC) Diehard 2 because ... he liked the colour? Ghu give me strength.

W.

[Daemonknight228]

Aside from lab-made elements I assume you mean.

Rhenium, Rhodium, Osmium(i believe its the rarest metal by annual production), Palladium are all pretty rare. Scandium also has a really low annual production.

[cray]

Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that the vast majority of Iridium on earth actually comes from meteorites. And that is why it is so rare. In fact it's so rare you'd be hard pressed to find another less common element.

Iridium is rare because of its odd atomic number (77), which makes it less likely to be a product of nucleosynthesis, high atomic number (which further reduces its incidence), density (which leaves it in the center of a planet) and reactivity with iron (also headed for Earth's core) does make iridium the second or third rarest element on Earth's surface (after osmium and maybe rhodium).

This ignores the traces of plutonium created naturally in uranium ores. I think there's a few total grams of natural plutonium on and in Earth.

According to wiki, the largest concentrations of iridium are found in igneous regions of the crust, though impact craters are a second major source.

Aside from lab-made elements I assume you mean.

Yes.

[Von Jankmon]

Finally, unlike a lot of resources, aluminum is abundant. Its 8% of Earth's crust by weight.

Aluminium is everywhere, however it is only easily extractible from bauxite, which is quite rare.  The only bauxite reserves of any note in the Europe is in Greece and there are no sizable reserves in North America.

[Sigma]

there are no sizable reserves in North America.

That sir, is not right. Any place that has had a felsic igneous bedrock and a tropical rainforest on it in the last 150 million years has Bauxite by the gigaton.

Basically a good chunk of the Southern US and a ton of the Caribbean Islands and a ton of Central American countries (Still part of NA) have huge reserves of Bauxite.

South America has even more!

People get mad when you have to strip mine the tropical rainforest to get to it sometimes though. That's why it's smarter to go after the older areas that naturally lost their forest through climate change or even dig it offshore from parts of a coast or island that are now underwater since the beginning of the Holocene.

Places that are cold and never had equatorial/subtropical rainforests or granitic bedrock. They don't have it.

[cray]

Aluminium is everywhere, however it is only easily extractible from bauxite, which is quite rare.  The only bauxite reserves of any note in the Europe is in Greece and there are no sizable reserves in North America.

So extract aluminum from kaolin (carbon reduction, then the usual electrolysis of alumina). There's 12 billion economically viable tons of kaolin, including 100 to 200 million tons of very high grade kaolin in the US.

[Sigma]

BTW Bauxite is a composite of about 5 different minerals. 1 of them being Kaolinite 1:1 clay. :D

But if you want true Pisolitic Beauxite, that still is all over the place. I remember when I took economic geology that the reason that we don't mine locally anymore is the Caribbean stuff is easier and cheaper to ship in than mining ourselves. The US Bauxite reserves never went dry.

Estimated worldwide Bauxite reserves were around 40 billion tons total last I heard about 6 or 7 years ago. I do know what you mean by what is currently economically viable though. That is a constantly changing factor among the oil folk I talk to.

[ShadowRaven]

Hello. Canuck here.  LasT I checked we where in North America, last I checked, we also produce Alluminum by the metric buttload

[cray]

Hello. Canuck here.  LasT I checked we where in North America, last I checked, we also produce Alluminum by the metric buttload

Canada imports bauxite from other countries and then refines it into aluminum. It doesn't have significant bauxite reserves of its own. Not that the US's reserves are big compared to, say, Guiana's.

[ShadowRaven]

really? learn something new every day

[Weirdo]

Given its low cost, are there other practical hurdles to using aluminum in other areas, such as gaming minis?

[Fnord]

Pewter is better suited for molding. It has a far lower melting point (~200^oC), unlike aluminium, which melts at roughly 660^oC, that alone would make pewter quite a bit better, and if my memory serves, pewter suffers from less heat expansion/contracts less when cooling from its melted temperature to room temperature.

[cray]

What Fnord said.

Also, aluminum is pretty reactive with oxygen - as a powder, it's a common additive to explosives and solid rocket fuels. As a bulk solid, it promptly forms an impermeable oxide barrier (vs. the spongy, porous oxides you've seen on rusty cars) that is resistant to further corrosion. However, as a liquid, aluminum should be handled with some care to avoid embrittling reactions with oxygen, such as using a nitrogen cover gas.

In other words, pewter is a lot easier. :)

[Your Name Is]

When you said powder, I thought of thermit black and playing with that in high school. Granted, we needed a magnesium fuse to ignite it.

[Orin J.]

Hello. Canuck here.  LasT I checked we where in North America, last I checked, we also produce Alluminum by the metric buttload

this isn't right, we don't use the metric system for that. i'm pretty sure you mean imperial buttload.

[GreyWolfActual]

Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that the vast majority of Iridium on earth actually comes from meteorites. And that is why it is so rare. In fact it's so rare you'd be hard pressed to find another less common element.

I believe Francium is far rarer and meet the definition of a naturally occurring element, albeit one with a ridiculously short shelf life.

[Your Name Is]

Francium occurs in nature? :o


Also, isn't it technically Aluminium? :p

[Fnord]

Francium occurs naturally, and is the second rarest naturally occurring element (Astatine is rarer)

Aluminium in the UK, Aluminum in the US.

[cray]

Francium occurs in nature? :o

20-30g of Fr in Earth's crust at one time. It's a short-lived decay product of uranium and thorium.

There should be about 10g of naturally-occurring Plutonium-244 in Earth's crust, leftover from Earth's formation. I'm not sure about the incidence of Pu-239 in uranium ores, where it is produced by nuclear reactions; it occurs at the parts-per-trillion level in concentrated uranium ores.

Also, isn't it technically Aluminium? :p

We could put it to a properly democratic vote, US and UK. :)

[worktroll]

Hey! Add in all the current and ex Commonwealth countries ... Canada, Australia, ... India ...

W ;)

[ShadowRaven]

forget Canada and Australia. India alone would sway the vote.

[Ajax_Wolf]

Francium occurs in nature? :o

Only as a decay product for actinium. Francium has no stable isotopes, and the isotope with the longest half-life (~22 minutes) is Francium-223, so it doesn't stick around for long.



Edit: opps, wrong isotope.

[lucho]

interesting topic, thought I'd add a humorous 2¢

Here in Brazil (according to the UN) there is the highest rate of aluminum recycling in the world; it is as close to 100% as humanly possible (officially 99+%). How, you ask?

The homeless. Seriously. Somehow the idea reached them that gathering aluminum cans (and now, paper) and giving them to the recycling center earned them money for booze. Now, especially in beer-guzzling Rio de Janeiro, you never see cans on the ground, only street people with enormous sacks of cans. Ironic that they would be more socially responsible than the 'upright citizens'  :-X