Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation  (Read 159262 times)

Ruger

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #30 on: 20 November 2018, 04:03:31 »
If more is better then I choose a Bristol Beaufighter, four 20 mm Hispano Mk III cannons and six .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns.

I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Ruger
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #31 on: 20 November 2018, 04:48:34 »
The Black Widow gets my vote.


EDIT: But won't display for some reason.  Here's the link: https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #32 on: 20 November 2018, 05:05:51 »
I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Beau had rockets too.

Dat fuselage though... "Oddball, do you copy? Form up on me, we're going after the Invisible Hand..."

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #33 on: 20 November 2018, 05:46:21 »
an Ironic full circle..

Nigeria recently took delivery of the first batch of Pakistani "Super Mushshak" training planes, which Nigeria will be using as both a trainer and as light attack and scouting craft.


the Super Mushshak is a Pakistani license build of the Saab MFI-17 Supporter. (a militarized version of their MFI-15 Safari)



which in turn was a modernization of the Saab MFI-9.



which had  its own militarized model, the MFI-9B, a squadron of which was used as light attack and scouting craft by the nascent (and doomed) nation of Biafra during the Nigerian civil war.



i wonder if they are aware of the irony?

grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #34 on: 20 November 2018, 08:04:48 »
The Black Widow gets my vote.


EDIT: But won't display for some reason.  Here's the link: https://goo.gl/images/V7Fbk2

We call the Phantom and the 'Hog ugly? 

I counter with the P-61 Black Widow...four 20 mm cannons and four .50 caliber machine guns...and rockets under the wings...

Ruger
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Luciora

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #35 on: 20 November 2018, 11:03:32 »
Later versions of the Widow removed the turret, as it caused buffeting during flight and use.  Still kept the belly cannons though.

chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #36 on: 21 November 2018, 14:08:51 »
Aviation Pictures: the Fourth Hurricane (mark)



I was just wondering this week if having the Vickers S-equipped Hurricanes available for the Blitz would have provided measurably better results against the Luftwaffe's bombers. Might slow them down enough to have trouble catching Ju-88s flying light after dropping, but it'd be able to catch the He111s without trouble and punch far larger holes than .303s

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #37 on: 21 November 2018, 14:34:57 »
12-15 rounds per gun wasn't exactly the most suitable for air combat.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #38 on: 21 November 2018, 14:36:56 »
Catching a bomber after it's already dropped isn't terribly helpful.
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Sharpnel

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #39 on: 21 November 2018, 15:03:58 »

though it does keep them from coming back for another try.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #40 on: 21 November 2018, 15:06:48 »
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #41 on: 21 November 2018, 15:23:20 »
They didn't have a recocking mechanism, so if the gun misfired or something then it was done.  Meanwhile the Americans built all theirs with oversize chambers and had constant malfunctions because of it, and never bothered to fix it despite being shown the difference between Brit 20s and American ones.

they had the same issue trying to copy the mg42 as the t24
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #42 on: 21 November 2018, 15:24:54 »
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
Killing bombers, whether or not they drop their payloads today, means they won't be dropping any more payloads at all.  I can accept taking one more day of bombing to eliminate the threat permanently.
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chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #43 on: 21 November 2018, 15:29:07 »
12-15 rounds per gun wasn't exactly the most suitable for air combat.

I think the .303 Brownings only had enough ammo for 12-15 bursts anyway. It's the destructiveness to the bombers that's important. You can poke a LOT of rifle-calibre holes in an airframe before it's done. That's rather less true for 40mm shells.

Catching a bomber after it's already dropped isn't terribly helpful.

It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs
« Last Edit: 21 November 2018, 15:31:11 by chanman »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #44 on: 21 November 2018, 15:37:56 »
It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs
doubly effective in the Luftwaffe's case since they didn't rotate skilled pilots and crews off the frontline to training positions very often. so not only are you removing an existing crew from service, the one that replaces them isn't going to be nearly as skilled at doing their job. making shooting down the next wave of bombers that much easier.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #45 on: 21 November 2018, 15:45:58 »
It sure is. The Luftwaffe's aircraft replacement capabilities weren't very good, and even more importantly, they don't get a crew back to pilot the replacement bomber if they're KIA or POWs

Which helps you less if that bomber just took out a factory that was vital to England's war efforts.  If Germany loses its bombers but manages to inflict crippling damage to England's military readiness in the process, that's a net victory for Germany.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #46 on: 21 November 2018, 15:58:43 »
That's a consolation prize.  The real objective in intercepting bombers is to stop them from, you know, bombing you.
Shooting down bombers after they have dropped their payload today, is equivalent to intercepting them before they drop the payload tomorrow.

It didn't matter as much when the German fighters intercepted the bombers, before or after the bombing; what mattered was inflicting such per-mission losses that continued bombing was unfeasible. Schweinfurt One for example lost about 100 bombers out of nearly 400; Schweinfurt Two lost about 70 out of 300. Keep that casualty rate up and the whole force would be dead in just a couple more missions.

Which helps you less if that bomber just took out a factory that was vital to England's war efforts.  If Germany loses its bombers but manages to inflict crippling damage to England's military readiness in the process, that's a net victory for Germany.
Bombing at the time wasn't so effective that it could achieve war-winning results in less than 10 missions. It took RAF Bomber Command 30 missions (including the highly specialist and highly effective Dam Busters raids) just to deal German production heavy losses... far from killing it entirely. There was no real knockout blow, bombing had to be sustained to be effective.

I think the .303 Brownings only had enough ammo for 12-15 bursts anyway. It's the destructiveness to the bombers that's important. You can poke a LOT of rifle-calibre holes in an airframe before it's done. That's rather less true for 40mm shells.

True, and the Luftwaffe did have some few successes using their 37mm Bordkanones on bomber streams, but the problem is accuracy - unless they were Hans-Joachim Marseille or Erich Hartmann, pilots generally needed those long bursts to either walk the rounds on target or have the target fly through the stream. Can't do that with single-shot weapons.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #47 on: 21 November 2018, 18:02:24 »
nice pics so far
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chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #48 on: 21 November 2018, 18:13:50 »
True, and the Luftwaffe did have some few successes using their 37mm Bordkanones on bomber streams, but the problem is accuracy - unless they were Hans-Joachim Marseille or Erich Hartmann, pilots generally needed those long bursts to either walk the rounds on target or have the target fly through the stream. Can't do that with single-shot weapons.

Yeah, there's a reason why when you read through fighter pilot accounts, they tend to value situational awareness, marksmanship, and aggressiveness far above any flying talent. See the enemy first, hit them first, and press the attack home. Dogfighting is a largely mutually defensive situation/stalemate.

The Hurricane does give a more nimble and stable gunnery platform that some of the larger craft. In the hands of some of the infamously aggressive units (Free Poles, etc.), they might have hastened the end of German daylight raids.

On bo both the day and night interceptor role though, had the fighter versions of the Mosquito been available a year or two sooner, they may have been able to take a truly terrifying toll, especially as night intruders, attacking bombers still forming up for their night attacks over their airfields.

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #49 on: 21 November 2018, 18:41:06 »
Phantom fans, it seems the Hellenic Air Force still flies 'em. Did not know that.



Yeah, there's a reason why when you read through fighter pilot accounts, they tend to value situational awareness, marksmanship, and aggressiveness far above any flying talent. See the enemy first, hit them first, and press the attack home.
I should think so! These qualities are practically what sets fighter pilots apart from any other flyer.

Quote
On bo both the day and night interceptor role though, had the fighter versions of the Mosquito been available a year or two sooner, they may have been able to take a truly terrifying toll, especially as night intruders, attacking bombers still forming up for their night attacks over their airfields.
What, during the Battle of Britain? In daytime Mosquitos shouldn't tangle with German bombers over the Continent as they'd still be escorted by fighters. And at night, it was lack of radar that left the RAF effectively helpless at night.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #50 on: 21 November 2018, 18:41:58 »
Phantom fans, it seems the Hellenic Air Force still flies 'em. Did not know that.
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chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #51 on: 21 November 2018, 20:10:53 »

I should think so! These qualities are practically what sets fighter pilots apart from any other flyer.
What, during the Battle of Britain? In daytime Mosquitos shouldn't tangle with German bombers over the Continent as they'd still be escorted by fighters. And at night, it was lack of radar that left the RAF effectively helpless at night.

They wouldn't be dogfighting in the daytime. They'd be doing what the Me 262s did against the 8th AF B-17s and B-24s. I think you underestimate how much faster the Mosquito was than other planes in the 1940-43 timeframe. The fighter versions also bring a far heavier (and concentrated like the P-38) armament to bear than the Hurricane and Spitfires. There's also some time slack historically since the Mosquito was put on back burner during the early part of the war.

The RAF had airborne radar for night fighters and RAF Mosquitos and Beaufighters were eventually so-equipped, including in efforts to attack German night fighters attacking RAF bombers. During the Battle of Britain/early blitz though, they were using much lower performance converted bombers (A-20 Havocs, Bristol Blenheims) in the role. The switch to Beaufighters and Mosquitos seems limited more by airframe availability (Beaufighters first flew in 1939 and entered service in 1940. Mosquitos first flew in 1940 and entered service in 1941)

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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #52 on: 21 November 2018, 21:05:44 »
They wouldn't be dogfighting in the daytime. They'd be doing what the Me 262s did against the 8th AF B-17s and B-24s. I think you underestimate how much faster the Mosquito was than other planes in the 1940-43 timeframe.
I'm not that familiar with the magnitude of the Mosquito's speed advantage, no, though I know it was fast enough to give Goering kittens. Wasn't the Fw190 quite fast as well?

Zoom and boom while outrunning escorts does sound fun.

Quote
During the Battle of Britain/early blitz though, they were using much lower performance converted bombers (A-20 Havocs, Bristol Blenheims) in the role. The switch to Beaufighters and Mosquitos seems limited more by airframe availability (Beaufighters first flew in 1939 and entered service in 1940.
And they did terribly. Barely made a dent in German night bombers. Yes though Beaus were available at the time, it was in extremely limited numbers, I think only 1 squadron or so flew them.

chanman

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #53 on: 21 November 2018, 21:22:40 »
I'm not that familiar with the magnitude of the Mosquito's speed advantage, no, though I know it was fast enough to give Goering kittens. Wasn't the Fw190 quite fast as well?

Zoom and boom while outrunning escorts does sound fun.

During its trials in early '41, the prototype had a 30 mph speed advantage over the Spitfire Mark IIs. The notoriously short-legged -109s also wouldn't have the gas to chase them far either - they had enough endurance problems dogfighting with the Hurricanes and Spitfires.

The BoB was too early for the FW-190 though (and IIRC, the radial-powered -190s weres always better at low altitude). Mind you, if we get down to it, even if Mosquito development had started sooner, reliable 20mm cannon still may not have been available for them (an interesting question would be how the Westland Whirlwinds fared with their armament, but there were so few of them), so I admit it's kind of a moot point.


Quote
And they did terribly. Barely made a dent in German night bombers. Yes though Beaus were available at the time, it was in extremely limited numbers, I think only 1 squadron or so flew them.

Ah, fair enough. It's hard to keep track of the timeline of electronic developments in WW2 since they moved so quickly

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #54 on: 21 November 2018, 21:40:17 »
190s were better under 10,000ft. Which is one reason the 109 laboured on - bombers came over at 15-20,000ft.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #55 on: 21 November 2018, 23:28:48 »
(an interesting question would be how the Westland Whirlwinds fared with their armament, but there were so few of them), so I admit it's kind of a moot point.
I love the Whirlwinds. AFAIK they didn't have much problem, being mounted in the nose and presumably right way up. I don't think the Hurricanes had an issue either, it was the early Spits with basically retrofitted Hispanos that had that problem.

Quote
Ah, fair enough. It's hard to keep track of the timeline of electronic developments in WW2 since they moved so quickly
Indeed. IIRC the Brits didn't have much (if any) night fighter radar during the Blitz.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #56 on: 21 November 2018, 23:29:16 »
Fly them high and fly them low...damn low.

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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #57 on: 22 November 2018, 01:20:45 »
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-11-22/us-scientists-fly-aeroplane-using-ionic-wind/10516032

Love the photo of the P-51 at the beginning of the article, the technology is impressive if they can scale it up.
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Re: Aviation Pictures: The Fourth Generation
« Reply #58 on: 22 November 2018, 10:40:44 »
Airbus next generation fighter concept:

I have spoken.


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Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat