Rank the mechs: 3039 lights

[Neufeld]

Let us move on to the 3025/3039 light mechs, and rank them too in order of preferences. To avoid over-long lists, let us concentrate on the main models only.

Here are the relevant mechs:
COM-2D Commando
JVN-10N Javelin
SDR-5V Spider
UM-R60 UrbanMech
FS9-H Firestarter
JR7-D Jenner
PNT-9R Panther
RVN-1X Raven
WLF-1 Wolfhound
THE-S Thorn
FLE-4 Flea
HNT-151 Hornet
MON-67 Mongoose
FLC-4N Falcon
HER-1A Hermes
HSR-300-D Hussar
LCT-1V Locust
STG-3R Stinger
WSP-1A Wasp
VLK-QA Valkyrie
OTT-7J Ostscout
21 different mechs.

My list, from worst to best:

21. FLE-4 Flea -- Roughly an Hussar without the speed. Will die fast if it attract attention. I have a general dislike of the 6/9/0 movement profile on the 20-25 tonners.

20. HSR-300-D Hussar -- The speed saved it from the last place, but tissue paper armor prevent it from being rated better.

19. THE-S Thorn -- While the concept is good, my dislike of the movement profile pulls it down.

18. COM-2D Commando -- They makes pretty fireworks when they inevitably blows up.

17. OTT-7J Ostscout -- People complain about the better armed Assassin when this is much worse?

16. RVN-1X Raven -- The weight of the experimental EW gear hurts it too much.

15. UM-R60 UrbanMech -- The firepower and armor means that it has its uses as an alley mugger.

14. STG-3R Stinger -- Wins no prices for firepower and armor. Still the movement profile is decent.

13. WSP-1A Wasp -- See Stinger above.

12. FLC-4N Falcon -- The potential of this chassis is wasted by stupid weapon choices. It is also ugly.

11. HNT-151 Hornet -- It can jump and is armed with an LRM. Still the speed is a bit too slow for comfortable on a light.

10. VLK-QA Valkyrie -- Big brother of the Hornet.

9. LCT-1V Locust -- Good speed, if only the armament was better.

8. PNT-9R Panther -- If it only was faster. 4/6/4 on a light makes me uncomfortable.

7. JVN-10N Javelin -- Solid, but unspectacular.

6. HER-1A Hermes -- Fast, decent weapons, barely adequate armor.

5. SDR-5V Spider -- If is only had a bit more armor.

4. FS9-H Firestarter -- Decent as an normal anti-mech light, brutal against infantry.

3. JR7-D Jenner -- A brutal striker that needs more armor.

2. WLF-1 Wolfhound -- Great armor, great armament, and the movement profile does not hurt all that much since it is a 35 tonner.

1. MON-67 Mongoose -- Fast, good armor for its weight and good weapon array.

Overall, I like of lot less the lights compared to the mediums. Only the top 10 are mechs that I would consider decent.

So, what does your list look like?

[bakija]

Top tier:

-Wolfhound
-Mongoose
-Panther

The first two are stupidly good relative to the rest of the mechs on this list; this makes sense, as they were designed a lot later than the other ones, and seem like they were designed by people who actually understood the game, rather than imaginary mech engineers. The Panther is incredibly effective for a light mech. I mean, yeah, it isn't going to do a great job as a speedy combat avoidance unit, but as support to bigger, meaner mechs that your opponent wants to shoot more than the Panthers, they can't be beat. My vote for the best of the original 3025 mechs.

Solid top of the middle:

-Commando
-Javelin
-Urbanmech
-Jenner
-Valkyrie
-Firestarter

All totally reasonable for what they are. Commando, yeah, he is going to blow up eventually, but is one of the heaviest armed mechs of the class and is going to do significant damage if ignored; Javelin is totally solid (although it could really use a ML in the mix). Urbanmech is very heavily armed and assuming it is being used for its intended use, totally fine. Jenner is only not a top tier contender 'cause it is saddled with that SRM4 instead of more armor, but is very solid for the group. Valkyrie is reasonable, and Firestarter is very good for its intended role of killing infantry.

Lower side of middle:

-Spider
-Hermes
-Falcon
-Hornet
-Locust
-Stinger
-Wasp
-Raven
-Thorn

Unimpressive and generally not real useful. Sometimes good in a niche role.

Worst of the bunch:

-Flea
-Hussar
-Ostscout

Badly designed and not particularly good for anything.

[Guitardian]

1 star: please reassign me to an infantry squad, captain
Ostscout
urbanmech
hussar
flea

2 stars: well, I guess if I have to...
stinger
wasp
hornet
locust
firestarter

3 stars: I can probably make it make it work
falcon
hermes
thorn

4 stars: Dont mind if I do
commando
javelin
spider
valkyrie
raven
jenner
(urbanmech in its preferred location)
(firestarter in its preferred mission)

5 stars: awesome! thanks captain!
wolfhound
panther

5 stars and an additional three thumbs up:
Mongoose!!!!!

addendum: my rankings are based on a 'general usefulness' assumption for a variety of unknown situations and I have scored the firestarter and urbanmech uncharacteristicly low compared to the respect I would have for them if they are part of a game which features their intended purposes showcased. Some, like the hussar or ostscout, however, I do feel are completely hopeless. Most of them, even if I don't like their usage of weapons space, or armor/movement combination, are somewhat functional, very few of the light mechs are just complete mistakes IMO. I'm a big 3025 era fan and a big fan of the nicer light mechs and quietly root for the underdogs anyway too. I just like light mechs I guess.

btw didnt you leave out the 'mercury'? I dont have that book handy but I thought there was a pre-invasion version of that without star league tech wasn't there? It's just a Locust the way it should have been armed for non-infantry battles (it looks like a frisbee with legs unfortunately so I'll never use one for aesthetic reasons)

[Deadborder]

The low-tech Mercury was dropped from TRO3039, with the explanation that none of the design survived the Succession Wars outside of Comstar. The same goes for the low-tech Crockett and Exterminator

[bakija]

17. OTT-7J Ostscout -- People complain about the better armed Assassin when this is much worse?

1) The Assassin is bigger and more expensive and *could* have better guns than it does where the Ostscout can't.

2) No one is going to defend the Ostscout...

[Welshman]

Ranked on personal preference, overall effectiveness, armor, speed and weapons. Yes, I used a spreadsheet.

Remember, I'm biased to the original 3025 designs as I played the game well before the low Tech 2750 models came out.

From worst to best:
21   THE-S Thorn- Never used it, don't plan to.
20   FLE-4 Flea- To big a threat to not die quickly
19   HNT-151 Hornet- Jumping Thorn, not much better.
18   RVN-1X Raven- It's Capellan and doesn't work well.
17   STG-3R Stinger- Just Meh
16   WSP-1A Wasp- Meh Mk II
15   HER-1A Hermes- 2750 so not much experience, will reach for something else first.
14   UM-R60 UrbanMech- Good in cities, otherwise very limited.
13   OTT-7J Ostscout- A cheap spotter if you are in an all Mech game. I consider it a cheep Spider.
12   LCT-1V Locust- It's fast, which puts it above the other Bugs, but Meh III
11   COM-2D Commando- A walking missile storm that gets targeted pretty fast.
10   FLC-4N Falcon- 2750 unit so never used it, pretty capable as a Bug MK II
9   HSR-300-D Hussar- Keep it at range and full speed and it excels as a sniper
8   JVN-10N Javelin- Crit Seaker of Doom
7   FS9-H Firestarter- I really dislike this Mech, but it has a lot of firepower in a small and mobile package.
6   MON-67 Mongoose- 2750 design so I didn't get a lot of experience with it. A Locust on steroids.
5   VLK-QA Valkyrie- Mobile missile platform in a tiny package.
4   PNT-9R Panther- Slow is offset by jump and its very well armored and armed
3   JR7-D Jenner- Speed mixed with armor pealing and crit seaking.
2   SDR-5V Spider- Much overlooked is its ability to jump into a rear arc and punch with both fists. One of my first go to light designs.
1   WLF-1 Wolfhound- Almost to perfect.

[mensa12345]

Ok, I like the Ostscout....a lot!  Its problem is that it just doesn't shine in the typical Lance-on-Lance slugfest that most Battletech players use.  A friend of mine and I did Battalion on Battalion or Regiment on Regiment battles where we would use a strategic map (one hex equals one mapsheet) and then use an expanded time scale for movement.  When units would meet, they would fight a defined number of rounds of combat, and then strategic movement would occur.  That would let battles form where lights and mediums would be the first to engage, and then very often the slower units would move in to where the battle formed.  Of course, very often, one side or the other would disengage and the battle would shift to somewhere else.  It really made lights and mediums useful.  Only once both sides decided they couldn't or won't withdraw would the slower/heavier mechs be able to get involved.  A lance of Ostscouts (sometimes mixed in with other 8/12 mechs, if that's all that's available, but the extra jump was wicked handy) can very often pin down a unit of 7/11 or 6/9 units until heavier brothers could get there.  If the Ostscout wanted to keep sniping and deny you the ability to turn around and run (exposing your back), then you may be fighting a battle where you really don't want to.  Also, they are very handy for calling in artillery on mechs they otherwise could never damage.  (I always liked a 4 tube long tom unit, but tastes may vary.)  Additionally, if a heavier unit that had been damaged in combat tried to withdraw (we rarely fought toe to toe to the death, as replacements were expensive, or just flat out unobtainable), then Ostscouts were good at running down the damaged units for the coup de grace.  I've seen Ostscouts take out a seriously damaged heavy or assault simply by finding the holes where their weapons were damaged and they couldn't shoot back effectively.

[Fear Factory]

2) No one is going to defend the Ostscout...

If you use it like a Spider it's not all that bad.  Fire the medium laser and keep punching.

Plus I feel the Hornet is severely underrated.  It's dirt cheap...  like even cheaper than the Wasp and Stinger.  I actually prefer them for this reason.

[The Hawk]

21. HNT-151 Hornet - Somehow manages to be worse than the Thorn.  5/8/5 is simply too slow for a 20-ton 'Mech.

20. THE-S Thorn - 6/9/0 is also too slow for a 20-ton 'Mech.

19. OTT-7J Ostscout - I feel like the Spider's undergunned, so halving the firepower doesn't move me.

18. FLE-4 Flea - Love the large laser, love the flamer (if only it was forward-mounted), but hate the move curve and hate the pointless small lasers.  The FLE-15 isn't bad but still has pointless small lasers and lacks the wow factor of a large laser on a bug chassis.

17. FLC-4N Falcon - Not actually that terrible compared to its close cousin the Stinger, but the extremely questionable decision to rear-mount the MGs consigns the Falcon to the dustbin of history.

16. RVN-1X Raven - Well, if you're using the rules for its electronic equipment, it's the only thing that carries it in its era, period.  If you're not, it's a heavier, slower Commando with slightly different weapons.

15. HSR-300-D Hussar - There are two 9/14 options in 3025 tech, and this is the bad one.  The speed is great, the firepower is great, but my god the armor.

14. FS9-H Firestarter - Respectable firepower and armor and a decent movement curve, and I'm a big fan of incendiary 'Mechs, but the heat curve is the real killer. 

13. VLK-QA Valkyrie - I've never liked the LRM-10 and I never will, but the Valk is at least fairly well-rounded.  I can't really say anything bad about it... other than it carries an LRM-10. ;)

12. COM-2D Commando - Lyran that I am (it's only this high on the list because of that), would that I could love the Commando like I should.  It just never delivers anything but a horrible, explosive death to its pilot.

11. STG-3R Stinger - More notable for being ubiquitous than being great.  Really good bugs want to be 7/11 rather than 6/9/6 (hence all this business about the Assassin), but the Stinger can do OK.

10. WSP-1A Wasp - Can't really break up the Stinger and the Wasp, but I give the edge to the Wasp due to a slightly longer range and its effectiveness as an inferno carrier.

9. SDR-5V Spider - Yeah, it jumps far, but it never seems to perform up to spec.  Backstabbing is a great role, but the backstabber needs to have something to stab with when it gets there.

8. UM-R60 UrbanMech - I'm not as nutty for the Urbie as some, but when used in city defense and played smart it can be very effective.

7. JVN-10N Javelin - Not really overwhelming, but certainly a respectable entrant, capable of delivering a nice punch.

6. WLF-1 Wolfhound - Certainly the best of the 6/9/0 machines, but that's not saying a whole lot.  Personal experience hasn't been great, but I acknowledge that on paper it delivers.

5. MON-67 Mongoose - Good on paper, but I've got limited experience with them, not all of it good.  I like my lights to have more than one trick, personally.

4. JR7-D Jenner - Underarmored, runs hot and tends to explode, but if you can get past that, hoo buddy.

3. LCT-1V Locust - The ur-scout, and basically the benchmark against which all other light 'Mechs are judged.  Quails under serious fire, but so do all of its fellow 20-tonners -- at least it has the ground speed to get out of trouble and the MGs to chop up infantry.

2. PNT-9R Panther - The poor man/Drac's version of the much-lauded Vindicator.  It doesn't do what other lights do, it does what heavies do -- deliver PPC fire.  But the jump jets make it more mobile at its job than a Warhammer or Marauder, and it's got good armor for its tonnage.  It's not perfect, but I've seen it get the job done too often to discount 'em.

1. HER-1A Hermes - There are two 9/14 options in 3025 tech, and this is the good one.  A sleeper, but an effective one, kitted out with the flamer, which I remain convinced is among the best weapons under TW.  Granted it has less armor than the Mongoose, but it also does what it can't -- anti-infantry and incendiary work -- and goes faster, too.

Of course, your mileage may vary.  My opinion as to #1 is probably colored by seeing a HER-1A get the kill shot on 4 enemy 'Mechs in a single battle -- finishing with a charge on a Warhammer that legged and gyro'ed the Hermes but also dropped the Whammy alongside it.

[Drasius]

I'll take my chances with the firing squad
21 - FLE-4 Flea
20 - THE-S Thorn
19 - HNT-151 Hornet
18 - FLC-4N Falcon
17 - HER-1A Hermes

Rubbish
16 - RVN-1X Raven
15 - HSR-300-D Hussar
14 - WSP-1A Wasp
13 - STG-3R Stinger
12 - LCT-1V Locust
11 - OTT-7J Ostscout
10 - VLK-QA Valkyrie

Pretty decent
9 - JR7-D Jenner
8 - COM-2D Commando
7 - SDR-5V Spider
6 - UM-R60 UrbanMech
5 - JVN-10N Javelin

Fantastic
4 - FS9-H Firestarter
3 - WLF-1 Wolfhound
2 - MON-67 Mongoose
1 - PNT-9R Panther

Again, some unconventional placings, but that's how my luck goes.

[Zombyra]

Maybe I'm sensing the idea of "preferences" incorrectly, but my list of preferences is only peripherally related to an assessment of how capable a mech is.  The gratuity of the whole Assassin argument from the last thread seemed to be . . . well, it is the internet.

Anyway--here's mine.  In an order that implies amiability more than potency:

Only With Annoyance Would I Use:
RVN-1X Raven--It hurts me, it really does, but black box=dead weight.  Luckily, there are many variants.

FLE-4 Flea--Too ugly.  I can't get past the walking boxcar.

HSR-300-D Hussar--I know it can be good, but once again, too weird looking; also, the armor coverage makes me nervous.

STG-3R Stinger--I'd rather have a Wasp.

FLC-4N Falcon--I'd rather be in different mechs that can do the exact same thing at least as well. **shrug**

OTT-7J Ostscout--For the exact same reason I don't like to use the Assassin, the Hunchback, and the upcoming Spider: They all have the quality of using precisely 5 more turns than I want to play to get the job done.  Also, why no hands?  Some good variants, though.

SDR-5V Spider--Makes the game too tedious on my side.  A good mech, but I'll pass.

Best of Breed?
COM-2D Commando--It's a great mech, I gotta respect it, and I should like it more, but I just don't.  I'd rather be blowing them up.

Yeah, I Could Use That
UM-R60 UrbanMech--Gets the job done, I think of it as silly-looking; rather cute?

THE-S Thorn--Only 20 tons? I can live with 6/9/0 I guess.  I think it's got alot of "pluck" But mostly I think it's pretty neat looking.

JR7-D Jenner--The praises of which are well enough known--good times.

HER-1A Hermes--Wow, that's fast.  It's a shame about the armor, but I'm a moderate fan of the Hermes II, so I'm down.

HNT-151 Hornet--4 tons of armor, pretty nice guns for 20 tons.  If an LRM5 was going to be my "main" weapon, I might design this just for cheapness sake.

JVN-10N Javelin--What I'd rather use than the Commando.  Also, an excellent balance of maneuverability and hitting power.

VLK-QA Valkyrie--A faction mech, that might see more play from me if it felt more general-use.

Best of Breed?
WLF-1 Wolfhound--Yep, it's super-cool.  And expensive BV-wise.  And everybody else wants to use them; so I usually do something else just to be different.  Still a great mech, though.

**With Much Appreciation** I'd Love to Use That!
or, rather--these are the mechs that I would choose--given my druthers--not really having a remarkable taste for anything previous.

WSP-1A Wasp--Cheap, cool looking, and alot of good variants; I happen to think this is one of them.

LCT-1V Locust--Mechs twice as heavy aspire to look this good.

PNT-9R Panther--The medium mech lover's light mech.  Faction mech, but it's one of the factions I like, so it's ok.

Best of Breed?
I'm calling a tie.  Sorry, but it's just too close to call.

MON-67 Mongoose--My best fit for being fast, well armed, and well-armored.  Also, very cool looking.  If this were the only variant ever, it wouldn't stop being a great mech straight through the Jihad.

FS9-H Firestarter--I wish the head was a little less enormous, but I can't argue with what works.  And fire "works".  Well, it works for me anyway.  How could I not want to set 4 woods on fire at the same time?  It's got enough guns, though not loaded down, enough speed, though not super fast, enough armor, though it could have more, but I'm pretty satisfied with the balance in the SW era.  It's hard to believe 14 years ago I had to be talked into using this guy; Ah! What fools we were way back a'when!

[Dave Talley]

I agree with most of the assessment so far except for one thing

the wasp is worse than the stinger by a good chunk
the leg mounted srm just weirds me out and it interferes with kicking

[LordChaos]

Please assign me a J-27 instead.

20   HSR-300-D Hussar - Ok, even the SL version was wanting (could have been so much more, but didn't finish the job).  The lowtech version?  Sorry, I won't use it.


Ok, if I must, but at least assign me the proper mission.

19   FLE-4 Flea
18   THE-S Thorn
17   HNT-151 Hornet
16   WSP-1A Wasp
15   STG-3R Stinger - better then the Wasp if only due to weapon placement.
14   FLC-4N Falcon - if only it's weapon placement made sense, it would come in 6 (or more) places higher.
13   OTT-7J Ostscout - if I want a spider, I'll ask for a spider.


As long as I pay attention, I might survive (and contribute in) a skirmish!

12   FS9-H Firestarter
11   SDR-5V Spider - and judging by where I placed this one, I wouldn't really want a spider ether.
10   UM-R60 UrbanMech - really needs to be limited to built up areas, but in it's enviroment, very dangerous.
9   COM-2D Commando
8   VLK-QA Valkyrie
7   JR7-D Jenner


Generally compitent overall.

6   JVN-10N Javelin
5   LCT-1V Locust
4   MON-67 Mongoose
3   HER-1A Hermes


The bullies of the group.

2   PNT-9R Panther - yes, 4/6/4 is slow for a light.  But the pather isn't a "light" mech in the same fasion as everything else here.  It's a light-weight trooper mech, not a recon or skirmisher.
1   WLF-1 Wolfhound - I actually don't really like this mech (just a personal preference), but I have to admit it is a rock solid mech that punches (and stands up to return fire) above it's class.


Unranked - RVN-1X Raven - never used, never really even investigated, no opinion whatever.

[Fear Factory]

Maybe I'm sensing the idea of "preferences" incorrectly, but my list of preferences is only peripherally related to an assessment of how capable a mech is.  The gratuity of the whole Assassin argument from the last thread seemed to be . . . well, it is the internet.

Yes.  Yes it is.

[Akalabeth]

1) The Assassin is bigger and more expensive and *could* have better guns than it does where the Ostscout can't.

2) No one is going to defend the Ostscout...

It's called OstSCOUT for a reason. If you're in combat, you're using it wrong.

[bakija]

It's called OstSCOUT for a reason. If you're in combat, you're using it wrong.

Then it probably should have been left out of a set of game rules that is full of combat rules and completely lacking anything that resembles scouting rules...

[bakija]

Maybe I'm sensing the idea of "preferences" incorrectly, but my list of preferences is only peripherally related to an assessment of how capable a mech is.

Which is fine, but I suspect that most folks are approaching this sort of discussion based on "are these mechs worth using in a fight" rather than "I think the Flea is the best mech of the lot 'cause it looks like one of those Star Wars things!" I mean, no one is going to tell you not to like something you like for reasons other than effectiveness, but given that I suspect that most folks are coming at this discussion from the angle of "these mechs are good to use in a fight and these are not", it is probably going to result in people talking past each other.

  The gratuity of the whole Assassin argument from the last thread seemed to be . . . well, it is the internet.

Well, ya know, we are familiar with your feelings on things like that. You can always just ignore that part of the discussion. All things being equal, it went as smooth as could be hoped.

[JPArbiter]

as with the mediums, I am relegating this to a Top 10.  notice that all four of the intro set lights are in there?

10) The Wolfhound- many would say why?  It is one of the best lights EVER!  Well that is the main problem with me, the WLF 1 Mech regularly can fight above its weight class, in many cases WELL ABOVE it’s own weight class.  Seriously I had two Regular Rated Wolfhounds give an Elite Awesome fits for 12 turns.  So while technically it is a light mech, the sucker is more a low end heavy in my mind.

9) Firestarter.  There is nothing like a mech that knows exactly what it is used for.  The firestarter is that mech.  Pure anti personnel goodness, coupled with strategic level asset/mobility denial.  The pair of lasers and heat rules make it viable in most pickup games, so you are not totally boned if you roll one on a RAT.  I was sold on a firestarter when I set four Forrest Fires at once to flush out a Lyran Assault Lance in the 4th succession war scenario pack.

8) Commando-  Lyran Battle Armor indeed.  It may be a perfect world scenario given the cluster table reliance on most of its weapons.  But this mech can gut check an Atlas., and if a 25 tonner can force a PSR then it is fine by me.

7) Spider- Keeping in mind that Battletech is built around the idea of 5 point hits, the Spider has the ability on paper to become one of the most perfect fast response mechs ever.  High speed, ridiculous jumping capability and relatively well protected armaments are difficult to beat.  Now if only we can rig a full head ejection system to it.

6) Panther- another mech known for fighting above its weight class, though not to the silly levels of the WLF.  The Panther can easily prove the concept of deploying entire companies of the same mech.  It packs a whallop, and is reasonably armored, though not nearly as fast as it should be.  I can understand why the DCMS made this sucker their principle line mech

5) Jenner- and here is the Panthers partner in crime, for anything the Panther can not do, the Jenner Reasonably can.  Faster, more maneuverable, and packing volume of fire rather then single hits.  The JR7 can Easily fill in roles the Panther can not, making it good for as wide as a 1 in 6 deployment alongside the PNT.

4) Locust- this is the mech that everyone loves even if Lyrans want to deny it.  Low cost in C Bills and BV, excellent speed, decent armor for the lightest of mechs, and a very principled armament.  despite the rules of the thread, we must give credence to variants as well.  Every one of us has played with the SRM or LRM carrying Locust and had a blast (and shocked our opponents), or turned the thing into Machine gun or Small Laser boats.  And now the LCT-6M has reclaimed the title of fastest canon mech.  This puppy will always be hugged by me.

3) Valkyrie- the VLK series is another in what proves that weight does not define utility, and land speed does not define survivability.  The Valk can reach out further then most lights, providing a valuable cover fire in a cheaper package then most commonly considered missile boats.

2) Mongoose- it is fast, light, unpredictable with a great laser armament.  don’t get me wrong, I would prefer the Active Probe and TAG of the 2750 model every day of the week (or the SLDF Royal variant) but the Succession wars mongoose is not a bad mech by any stretch.

1) Wasp- the 20 ton “man in a suit of armor” quintessential light does it for me.  I prefer its look over the stinger, even though they are the same mech on paper.  The armament is simple and intuitive, the speed defined lights for so long, and even the Project Phoenix mechs look damned sexy.

[Fear Factory]

Then it probably should have been left out of a set of game rules that is full of combat rules and completely lacking anything that resembles scouting rules...

Oh dear lord.  *cough* DOUBLE BLIND *cough*

This game isn't cut-and-dry rock-paper-scissors like Pokemon.

[bakija]

Oh dear lord.  *cough* DOUBLE BLIND *cough*

Which is a very advanced and optional rule in Tactical Ops. And was introduced *way* after the Ostscout was.

I realize that this game has lots and lots of very involved, fringey rules that some people really like and use, and that is great and more power to them. But I suspect that most folks don't use double blind rules on a regular basis. And introducing mechs that have only reasonable use in exceptionally advanced and optional rules is generally kind of questionable.

This game isn't cut-and-dry rock-paper-scissors like Pokemon.

Yes. And as much as you can use double blind rules, you can also assume all of your pilots are 0/0 and have special role playing skills that let them shoot opposing mechs in the eye. But you don't generally assume that all the time, either.

If you are using Double Blind rules, then Ostscout has, at least, a use (although there are still better mechs for the same job; see: Spider). In the vast majority of the games that don't use Double Blind rules, Ostscout is mostly useless. Although you can always just never put one on a map, claim that they are all off "scouting", and call it even.

[Fear Factory]

...special role playing skills that let them shoot opposing mechs in the eye...

Where's the rule for that?

[Ian Sharpe]

21. Flea.  No armour on the -4 makes me ill.
20. Wasp. Dislike the 20 ton Bugs. 
19. Stinger.  See above.
18. Raven.  Lacks both speed and armour.
17. Hermes.  Needs armour.
16. Hussar. See above.
15. Falcon.  Light mechs have no business being oversinked. 
14. Commando.  Heavily armed, but the mismatched launchers and average speed are meh.
13. Javelin.  Smartly armoured, but could be better crit padded.
12. Locust.  Not as good as a Mongoose is the epitaph of lots of Mechs.
11. Spider.  Don't mind risking a Spider for suicide fights. 
10. Ostscout.  Specialist.  I prefer it as a scout due to the higher armour, it might survive a PPC shot at long range, or an ambush at short range due to hidden units.
9. Hornet.  Mini Valk.
8. Thorn.  Mini Valk with 2 MLs.
7. Valkyrie.
6. UrbanMech.  Specialist.  Great firepower and armour, the low speed is less of a concern in cities.  Also looks as though it can walk through buildings.   
5. Firestarter.  Specialist.  Acceptable firepower and smartly armoured.
4. Panther.  A threat to most lights, not as weak against the Wolfhound as fluffed. 
3. Mongoose.  Best of the land bound scouts.
2. Wolfhound.  Needs JJs to claim my top spot.
1. Jenner.  Best of the combat lights IMO.  Good speed, heavy firepower, flippy arms to run past a target and still shoot, jump jets, not quite smart armoured.  Inexplicably I have much better luck with the main model than the armoured variant.  Is it the only mech with thinner CTR armour than LTR/RTR armour?

[Akalabeth]

Then it probably should have been left out of a set of game rules that is full of combat rules and completely lacking anything that resembles scouting rules...

You know there are more scenario options than "kill the other side".
If the game doesn't provide what you need, craft your own set of conditions wherein it can become useful.

Which is a very advanced and optional rule in Tactical Ops. And was introduced *way* after the Ostscout was.

Double blind rules were not introduced in Tac Ops.

If you are using Double Blind rules, then Ostscout has, at least, a use (although there are still better mechs for the same job; see: Spider). In the vast majority of the games that don't use Double Blind rules, Ostscout is mostly useless. Although you can always just never put one on a map, claim that they are all off "scouting", and call it even.

The Spider has one ton less armour, and less internal structure, how is it superior? A second ML doesn't help it scout.

[bakija]

You know there are more scenario options than "kill the other side".
If the game doesn't provide what you need, craft your own set of conditions wherein it can become useful.

Which is certainly a reasonable plan, but doesn't lend itself to discussions like this. As you can't base a discussion among people who don't know all the factors on "rules I made up but you don't know".

When I enter into discussions like this, I generally assume general, tournament style rules. Nothing made up, nothing home grown, no RPG elements to contend with. 'Cause otherwise, there is no way to compare concepts and experiences.

I realize that plenty of people use optional advanced rules like Double Blind or role playing elements or house rules. But you can't assume that everyone uses these all the time, and as such, have them illuminate your comments without point them out ahead of time. If every discussion about how awesome the Assassin or Ostscout are started with "When using Double Blind rules...", then sure. No one is going to argue with that. But when using the kind of default, tournament style rules set (which doesn't always mean "just kill the other side", no, but does assume no optional rules and no made up house rules), these "scout" mechs are just generally not good. Especially the ones that are worse than other, similar ones.

[bakija]

Where's the rule for that?

They were made up by some GM somewhere. Along with rules for "Scouting".

[Akalabeth]

Which is certainly a reasonable plan, but doesn't lend itself to discussions like this. As you can't base a discussion among people who don't know all the factors on "rules I made up but you don't know".

When I enter into discussions like this, I generally assume general, tournament style rules. Nothing made up, nothing home grown, no RPG elements to contend with. 'Cause otherwise, there is no way to compare concepts and experiences.

I realize that plenty of people use optional advanced rules like Double Blind or role playing elements or house rules. But you can't assume that everyone uses these all the time, and as such, have them illuminate your comments without point them out ahead of time. If every discussion about how awesome the Assassin or Ostscout are started with "When using Double Blind rules...", then sure. No one is going to argue with that. But when using the kind of default, tournament style rules set (which doesn't always mean "just kill the other side", no, but does assume no optional rules and no made up house rules), these "scout" mechs are just generally not good. Especially the ones that are worse than other, similar ones.

Each person ranks mechs according to their playing style, as the discussion is ultimately one of opinions and personal experience. And if personal experience means an individual plays more than TW tournament style games then it's not unusual for them to have a varying opinion.

[bakija]

Each person ranks mechs according to their playing style, as the discussion is ultimately one of opinions and personal experience. And if personal experience means an individual plays more than TW tournament style games then it's not unusual for them to have a varying opinion.

Sure. Which is completely reasonable. But it behooves the discussion itself to point this out when making arguments about things. If, for example, I always played Double Blind campaign scenarios where all balancing is based on buying and repairing and resupplying units based on MCs, and all of my assessments of units is based on this, I'd point it out when taking part in a discussion like this. Maybe that is just me.

[Fat Guy]

Worst to best

21: HNT-151 Hornet  The variant that switches the LRMs for SRMs is a vast improvement.
20: THE-S Thorn  See above.
19: HSR-300-D Hussar  There's battlesuits with more armor!
18: RVN-1X Raven  Too much tonnage to the mostly useless ECM.
17: FLE-4 Flea  Doesn't do much of anything well.
16: VLK-QA Valkyrie  An LRM 10 does not a support 'Mech make.
15: FLC-4N Falcon  The MGs point which way? 
14: COM-2D Commando Usually only lives long enough to get one good salvo off.
13: OTT-7J Ostscout  Too lightly armed (though at least it is armed in this era!).
12: STG-3R Stinger Not bad. Not great either.
11: WSP-1A Wasp  See above.
10: UM-R60 UrbanMech It's only this high because numbers 11-21 would have a hard time killing it.
9: FS9-H Firestarter It would have been damn near the bottom before Total Warfare.
8: LCT-1V Locust Try to hit me!
7: SDR-5V Spider  And now the Locust jumps.
6: JVN-10N Javelin  Now we're getting into maneuverability, firepower and armor on the same chassis.
5: JR7-D Jenner  A little more armor would've been nice.
4: PNT-9R Panther Tough little bugger back in 3025.
3: HER-1A Hermes  And you thought the Locust was hard to hit.
2: MON-67 Mongoose  The Locust's bigger, meaner brother.
1: WLF-1 Wolfhound  Best designed intro-tech light. Period.

[Hellraiser]

Let us move on to the 3025/3039 light mechs, and rank them too in order of preferences. To avoid over-long lists, let us concentrate on the main models only.

Once again, I break these down by section of the list and not by specific #.

Top Tier
MON-67 Mongoose
HSR-300-D Hussar
JVN-10N Javelin
SDR-5V Spider
JR7-D Jenner
OTT-7J Ostscout
WLF-1 Wolfhound


Middle Seven
HNT-151 Hornet
LCT-1V Locust
STG-3R Stinger
WSP-1A Wasp
COM-2D Commando
FS9-H Firestarter
VLK-QA Valkyrie


Bottom of the Barrel
FLE-4 Flea
THE-S Thorn
FLC-4N Falcon
HER-1A Hermes
UM-R60 UrbanMech
PNT-9R Panther
RVN-1X Raven



I'll admit, I'm probably giving some credit to some of them based on the other versions of them that I might love to use even if this particular version isn't a favorite.  Or bonus points for being an original bug mech.
I'm also not a fan of the "baby-heavy/assault" series Urbie/Panther, I prefer my lights to go fast & even firesupport lights need to move 5/8/5 or better.

[MadCapellan]

21 - HSR-300-D Hussar - the standard large laser doesn't have the reach to pull of what the original Hussar did, which makes this thing's even thinner armor even more of a liability.

20 - FLE-4 Flea - Very similar to the Hussar, only slower, ever so slightly better armored, and with an AP weapon.  Blah.

19 - HNT-151 Hornet - Far too slow to avoid being caught and only armed well enough to annoy the enemy.  A Warrior VTOL would get you more for cheaper.

18 - THE-S Thorn - Almost identical to the Hornet, but slightly better armed and if it turns to run fast enough, it may just escape to safety.

17 - OTT-7J Ostscout - Impressively mobile, but the single medium laser has very little effect on the battlefield.


16 - VLK-QA Valkyrie - Like the Hornet, only with a LRM-10.  Not fast enough to escape things which will eat it alive, and not durable enough to stand and accurately deliver it's LRM load if pressed.  It's main strength is being ignored, which isn't much of a strength to begin with.

15 - WSP-1A Wasp - The Stinger's anti-armor clone, the platform isn't a very effective one for anti-armor work.

14 - RVN-1X Raven - Even with seven tons soaked by virtually useless EW equipment, a SRM-6 and a pair of medium lasers is nothing to sneeze at in 3025.

13 - LCT-1V Locust - The basic rapid-response backstabber/Anti-infantry unit.  Not spectacular, but it can get there and do the job.

12 - UM-R60 UrbanMech - A tough little scrapper, but it's essentially a turret, not really a 'Mech.

11 - STG-3R Stinger - Essentially a Locust that jumps, the Stinger is superior for that very reason - infantry can't escape from it through dense terrain.  Jumping also opens up a host of backstabbing options.

10 - COM-2D Commando - The Mechwarrior who pilots a Commando has to be a touch suicidal, since it's rather lousy mobility basically requires it to rush it's opponents and engage at point-blank range, but ten SRMs is a devastating volley in the Succession Wars, doubly if any are infernos.

9 - PNT-9R Panther - A light 'Mech attempting to be a medium 'Mech attempting to be a heavy 'Mech.  Fortunately for the Panther, the PPC is such a GODLY weapon in 3025 that it thoroughly covers for how terrible the rest of the 'Mech is.  The Hollander of 3025.

8 - HER-1A Hermes - This is the Locust stepped up: faster, more anti-armor firepower, equally good at killing infantry, and able to start fires. 

7 - FLC-4N Falcon - ....and this is the Stinger stepped up: see above, only not incendiary.

6 - JVN-10N Javelin - Nothing less than the Commando perfected.  With even more SRM tubes, it's even more of a terror.  With jump jets, it can now actually leap out of harm's way, and into the fray when needed.

5 - SDR-5V Spider - Two medium lasers is just enough firepower to potentially ruin a 'Mech's day from behind.  Eight jump jets is enough lift to make sure you can get there, wherever it is, and then get back out.

4 - FS9-H Firestarter - The pinnacle of the Stinger pyramid.  Just as moble, more armor, backstabs, light's fires, and makes infantry crispy brown.

3 - MON-67 Mongoose - A trio of medium lasers is a mean punch for 3025 lights.  That it's Locust fast is even better.

2 - JR7-D Jenner - The beast light of the original TRO: 3025, it is the ultimate rapid-response light-striker, backstabber, and all around hate machine.  Run up and alpha, deliver Heavy 'Mech firepower, and then fade.

1 - WLF-1 Wolfhound - A better Medium 'Mech than a third of the designs in 3025, the Wolfhound is an absolute monster which eats Panthers for lunch and Whitworths and Blackjacks for dinner.  If it jumped, it'd be the Light 'Mech messiah.

[JPArbiter]

here is a real tactical place for the Ostscout.  use it's 8 jumping modifer and single laser to get your opponent mad, run after you, and RIGHT INTO THE FIELD OF FIRE OF THE OTHER THREE MECHS!
\
small weakly armed mechs work as bait because they are usually fast enough to make the other guy mad, and mad people make mistakes.  and you can constantly get that To Hit number to 10 or better, you force your opponent to either TRY to swat you like a bug or let you pin prick him with impunity.

[bakija]

small weakly armed mechs work as bait because they are usually fast enough to make the other guy mad, and mad people make mistakes.

I dunno, man--I tend to stay away from tactics that rely on my opponents behaving irrationally.

[MadCapellan]

I dunno, man--I tend to stay away from tactics that rely on my opponents behaving irrationally.

Me too.  I am particularly loathe to tie those tactics to a specific design as well, as that makes it even easier to pick up the shallow deception.

[Guitardian]

I dunno, man--I tend to stay away from tactics that rely on my opponents behaving irrationally.

well there's an "assassin" lesson right there. Sooner or later you have to deal with it because it keeps jabbing at you but there's always better targets. That isn't irrational, it's giving an opponent 2 bad choices: either waste shots trying to hit it, or ignore it and let it keep chipping away at you. Neither is good. This of course doesn't apply in games where people BV buy munchkin pilots with ridiculous gunnery skills and maneuver becomes less of a defense than hulksmash + armor  kind of thing.

there is a reason an "average" pilot is 4/5 not 2/6 or 1/5 or whatnot. Because the sliding scale of 2d6 bell curve means every + or - is somewhat exponential in its degree of success or failure, not just an even score. Yes, if everyone shoots like a marksman, dodgey stuff is doomed. But just as we use canon machs for continuity's sake, Some of us use 4/5 pilots as "average" for continuity too (with a clanner at 3/4, a very elite rare awesome guy at 2/3 etc.) the game will go downhill for the maneuver mechs when the hit rolls go down, because armor and damage are linear, and +/- dice rolls are a bell curve. Maybe THAT is why people hate the assassin... they are used to playing with low gunnery skill as "normal".
 A lot of mechs who are very fast get more damage out overall than a heavy, because everyone is trying to bring down the heavy and reluctant to resist easy hit rolls against difficult ones over a bug. The bug adds up. It isn't irrational, just reactionary. Try a fast gnat type mech in a lance v lance game done right with average pilots and you'll experience why they can be cool, not irrational. Present the other option, and remind him of it 1 medium laser at a time... you better believe the warhammer will go down before the spider, and the spider will need  10-s11s to hit it as it does its rounds (if you dont have munchkin freakshow pilots). It isn't irrational, just a choice of two bad decisions you can only defeat by forcing the badguy into the same kind of decisions on his end.

[bakija]

That isn't irrational, it's giving an opponent 2 bad choices:

No, no. The "irational" is "I'm going to do something that will make my opponent mad. And then they'll do what I want, 'cause they are mad." That is basing tactics on my opponents being irrational.

either waste shots trying to hit it, or ignore it and let it keep chipping away at you. Neither is good.

If you mostly ignore it and kill the other mechs that are in the fight and are easier to kill, they all die, and then eventually you either kill the little zippy mech when you have overwhelming odds or it runs away. The "chipping away" aspect is very minimal with mechs like Ostscout and Assassin.

This of course doesn't apply in games where people BV buy munchkin pilots with ridiculous gunnery skills and maneuver becomes less of a defense than hulksmash + armor  kind of thing.

Sure. As noted, I assume basic tournamenty style rules. Which generally means 4/5 pilots. I don't think the Assassin and the Ostscout are pants 'cause I'm always using 0/0 pilots. I think they are pants 'cause they don't have any guns worth considering in a fight.

Maybe THAT is why people hate the assassin... they are used to playing with low gunnery skill as "normal".

Probably not. It is probably 'cause it is designed badly.

[Fear Factory]

If you mostly ignore it and kill the other mechs that are in the fight and are easier to kill, they all die, and then eventually you either kill the little zippy mech when you have overwhelming odds or it runs away. The "chipping away" aspect is very minimal with mechs like Ostscout and Assassin.

What are we chipping away here?  Do you field nothing but heavies and up?  Nothing but 'Mechs with "good design choices" like the Wolfhound, Fire Javelin and F Jenner?  The Assassin is great for taking out stock 'Mechs, like the stock Wasp, Stinger, Commando, Jenner, Clint, etc.  There are select heavies and even mediums (like the Centurion and Vindicator) that I would consider sending an Assassin after.  You're making it sound like your sending it after "the good ones" which would obviously give you a disappointing outcome.

I think they are pants 'cause they don't have any guns worth considering in a fight.

Which is your opinion.  Pick a 'Mech that works for you instead of knocking something because it can't adapt to your playing style or wishing that it replaced its weapons.  Like I said, if you see nothing but Wolfhounds and other flashbulbs on the table you're going to be disappointed with the Assassin.  Shoot, if you raise the bar like this you're making a lot of stock designs look bad.

Probably not. It is probably 'cause it is designed badly.

Your opinion.


EDIT:  To stay on topic here, the Ostscout can work the same way.  It jumps far, it is hard to hit and the single medium laser is all you need to ruin a lot of the other stock or "common" designs.

[Guitardian]

Again, 1 medium laser at a time right? (unless you are used to mutant pilots who can hit it anyway, in which case yeah it's pointless)

 Ostscout is bad IMO because it could have downed a notch to 7/11/7, had the same movement bonus to be hit, and quite a bit more armor or weapons. I guess I prefer the odd numbers for lightly armored jump mechs if that's the only way they can stay safe, and the even numbers for jumpless ones (locust, cicada obvious). J6 versus J7 is way more of a boon than J7 versus J8. couple tons more armor, throw on some machineguns or flamer, whatever so it can shred infantry for the heavy flashbulbs backing it up who arent so good at that, and still have a -5 or worse hit mod if it moves smart.

 Running the maneuver game just wont work though if all the pilot stats are like ridiculous marksmen (or if everyone has a wraith with pulse everything).. the scale slides differently than big dumb hulkish gun platforms blasting away at each other with linear armor protection that wont change no matter how skilly the person shooting it may be.

In an "average" mechwarriors kinda game, the assassin can stay alive, so can the spider, the ostscout, to a lesser extent the non-idealised Jenner, Locust, Cicada,  and super-fast gnats use their light armament as a psychological tool to avoid even being worth firing at. 1 medium laser at a time. It adds up. try taking on a 3025 Warhammer or Marauder or whatever that is prone to heat issues and cant deal with a 7 point kick in the leg for more than a couple of turns no matter what the firepower it is dishing out on your bigguns plodding armored buddies.  It gets it out of the rest of the fight dealing with your gnattly little butt constantly threatening its heiny.

 It's like the Cyclops or the Cicada or  Charger (or some would say Banshee but I'm wierd about those).. like a mech who's engine is too heavy for what its worth. Give it a slightly lighter engine though and it would be gold stars.

[Akalabeth]

What are we chipping away here?  Do you field nothing but heavies and up?  Nothing but 'Mechs with "good design choices" like the Wolfhound, Fire Javelin and F Jenner?  The Assassin is great for taking out stock 'Mechs, like the stock Wasp, Stinger, Commando, Jenner, Clint, etc.  There are select heavies and even mediums (like the Centurion and Vindicator) that I would consider sending an Assassin after.  You're making it sound like your sending it after "the good ones" which would obviously give you a disappointing outcome.

If you'd read his previous post you'd know he has respect for mechs outside of the very optimized ones.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,14433.msg334474.html#msg334474

Just because a guy thinks a couple mechs are crap doesn't mean he's a munchkin

[Fear Factory]

If you'd read his previous post you'd know he has respect for mechs outside of the very optimized ones.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,14433.msg334474.html#msg334474

Just because a guy thinks a couple mechs are crap doesn't mean he's a munchkin

I didn't call him a munchkin.

[Moonsword]

Please settle down and mind Rule 3 in here.

[bakija]

What are we chipping away here?

We are chipping away at mechs that are probably more effective than the ones doing the chipping. That are probably roughly equivalent to the force using the chippers, but with better arranged weapons.
.

Like I said, if you see nothing but Wolfhounds and other flashbulbs on the table you're going to be disappointed with the Assassin.  Shoot, if you raise the bar like this you're making a lot of stock designs look bad.

I never said that's all I see on a table. For example, one of my favorite light mechs of the era is the stock Commando. Which is very far from a perfectly designed mech, as it doesn't have enough armor, suffers from the lack of jump jets, and blows up if you look at it funny. But can do a lot of damage before it blows up, so they are fun to use, even though the end result of that mech is going to be the obvious one most of the time. But see how I was all "I like this mech, and think it can be effective and fun to use, even though it is significantly flawed..." rather than "The Commando is brilliant! If you don't see that, it is 'cause you clearly don't get it..."?

Your opinion.

Of course it is. All of this is opinion. On all sides. There really isn't anything to be gained by pointing that out.

EDIT:  To stay on topic here, the Ostscout can work the same way.  It jumps far, it is hard to hit and the single medium laser is all you need to ruin a lot of the other stock or "common" designs.

A single ML is very far from all you need to ruin a lot of other common designs.

If, like, I'm playing a scenario that is, essentially, "You get a single light mech in 3025. Your victory condition is to get across the map as fast as you can, get back again, all while some other guys are shooting at you, so don't get killed. You shooting back is irrelevant.", then yes, the Ostscout is probably a good choice. But I'm also not volunteering to play that particular scenario that often, as it is one sided and not very interesting.

I realize that not all games are "line up two equal forces on opposite sides of the map and shoot until everyone is dead" (although I would imagine that the majority of games are a variation on that). But regardless of the particular victory conditions of a given scenario, combat is going to be a significant part of it. As this is a war game where the rules are focused on fighting and blowing things up. In some games, speed and defense might be something to leverage over sheer firepower, and in others, sheer firepower is more important. But in pretty much *all* games, gunplay and well thought out weapon selections are going to be important. Which is why I look at mechs that seem to ignore this fact and am critical of them. And no, not all mechs need to be super-optimized laser machines (although considering the amount of verbiage that goes into badmouthing super-optimized laser machines around here, the most popular light mechs in this discussion seem to be, ya know, the super-optimized laser machines...). But there is always going to be a spectrum of "excellent" to "poor" in terms of design of units. And discussing this spectrum is, ya know, fun, so it happens. And it is no surprise that the units that end up commonly on the "poor" end tend to follow a pattern (as do the ones that commonly end up on the "excellent" end).

[House Davie Merc]

I've been considering how to rank the lights during the medium mech discussion and
I came up with a thought on the matter that I believe should be considered .

I see a lot of people ranking the Wolfhound as #1 while ranking the 20 tonners
extremely low .

The Wolfhound is nearly TWICE the weight if the Stinger . 1.75 times actually .
Meanwhile a 55 tonner weighs 1.375 times what a 40 weighs and a 75 tonner
weighs 1.25 times what a 60 tonner weighs .
The light class isn't like the other classes of mechs because of how little tonnage there
is to work with .
Comparing this weight range as if the 2 are against each other may not be a fair comparison .

Considering how well they use their own tonnage may be better then which one you would
rather have rolled on a RAT .

With that poor explanation of my thinking , my list :

21. FLE-4 Flea
20. HNT-151  Hornet
19. HSR-300 Hussar
18. THE-S Thorn
17. WSP-1A Wasp
16. RVN-1X Raven  ( Is the 1X introtech ) To slow.Not enough armor
15. FLC-4N Falcon  Backwards MGs and a single medium laser for reach ?
14. OTT-7J Ostscout   
13. COM-2D Commando    Good firepower but a lack of jump means
it is easy to catch return fire and it can't keep up with other lights.
12. VLQ-1A  Valkyrie   Not enough ammo .The extra HS was a waste.
11. UM-R60 Urbanmech   Same problem as the Valkyrie plus it's TO slow
for most uses. The boom stick puts it this far up .
10. JR7-D Jenner  Great loadout limited by poor arm armor .
9.   LCT-1V Locust  For only 20 tons it's effective , but it needs more arm armor .
8.   HER-1A Hermes   Faster then Locust and no ammo ,but 50% heavier .
7.   PNT-9R Panther   The PPC is fantastic but the secondary weapon is limiting .
Slow but the Jump helps it get into a good position .
6.   SDR-5V Spider     2 medium lasers followed by 2 punches to the back can be
bad news for a heavy mech .
5.   STG-3R Stinger  What ?  Yup .    For 20 tons she's a CHEAP and capable
platform . The 2 MG and med laser combo means she can jump and Alpha all day .
It's a cheap way to have something that threatens infantry ,backstabs,chases vehicles,
and can still kick to force a PSR .  It's not a duel winner and it wasn't built to be .
4.   WLF-1 Wolfhound   A 35 tonner that fights better then many mediums .
The lack of jump jets means that it may be the slowest unit in a light mech force though .
3.   FS9-H Firestarter   Acceptable armor, best anti-infantry mech available in 3025 ,
jump jets, and it's multiple flamers have versatility while still having practical guns
for anti-mech work .  In the single heat sink era getting hit by 3 flamers can seriously
effect a heavy mechs next turn .
2.   MON-67 Mongoose  I made one somewhere around 85 or 86 but I called it
the "Scout Destroyer" .  It's very effective at that .
1.   JVN-10N Javelin      What ?   Yup .
It's CHEAP in BV and tons for it's combination of firepower,armor,and mobility .
If you can get away with running you can fire both SRM-6s for 15 turns without heat build up,
or run in and jump out to escape .
Having the weapons in the torsos both protects them and keeps both arms free to
punch at the back of an enemy mech after firing both SRM-6s .
It's quite possible to force a PSR with a salvo .
The spreadable damage can be used against infantry if needed and that spreadable damage
is death to vehicles or mechs that have exposed internals .

[Fear Factory]

A single ML is very far from all you need to ruin a lot of other common designs.

Then, don't you think those are the ones you should avoid putting the OST up against?  It can out maneuver a lot of 'Mechs like the 2D Commando, 1N Javelin, 3T Clint, etc. and either of these can afford to take a medium laser or even two punches (if you do hit) to the back.  But trust me, I'm not going to send it after a Vindicator which really depends on what's going on...

[billtfor3]

I think a lot of people aren't using some of the lights the way they are meant to be used......

Example:  the Javelin excels at bouncing cover to cover and then Jumping in to backstab or give a nice double SRM volley to the face then jumping. Away to repeat.

Valkyrie is a great long range support unit.  It is great at supporting other units that lack long range weapons ie. Hunchbacks or Javelins.  It has enough armor to survive return fire reasonably well, and at long range it makes it hard to hit.

[Fear Factory]

The only lights I really enjoy are the Panther, UrbanMech, Hornet, Javelin, Ostscout, Firestarter and Jenner.  For budget lances I use Hornets and UrbanMechs.  The rest don't really do it for me.

[garhkal]

As with the mediums, i take your comments (minus the placement number) and add my own.

FLE-4 Flea -- Roughly an Hussar without the speed. Will die fast if it attract attention. I have a general dislike of the 6/9/0 movement profile on the 20-25 tonners

Never used one...  could never stand the name..

HSR-300-D Hussar -- The speed saved it from the last place, but tissue paper armor prevent it from being rated better.

True, but what i never understood was why give it such speed?

THE-S Thorn -- While the concept is good, my dislike of the movement profile pulls it down.

Slow yes..  But that always made it overlooked for me... 

COM-2D Commando -- They makes pretty fireworks when they inevitably blows up.

One of my favored trooper mechs for the weight..  With me, they pulled their own weight..

OTT-7J Ostscout -- People complain about the better armed Assassin when this is much worse?

My least favored of the Ost series.

RVN-1X Raven -- The weight of the experimental EW gear hurts it too much.

Agreed.  2 ECM units??  What were they thinking..

UM-R60 UrbanMech -- The firepower and armor means that it has its uses as an alley mugger.

which to me was always its best use...  A great city mech for back stopping a huntchback..

STG-3R Stinger -- Wins no prices for firepower and armor. Still the movement profile is decent.

Of the 3 bugs (wasp, stinger, locust) was always my least favored.

WSP-1A Wasp -- See Stinger above.

I always had good luck with them..  Imo the best of the bugs.

FLC-4N Falcon -- The potential of this chassis is wasted by stupid weapon choices. It is also ugly.

Never used one.. so can't comment.

HNT-151 Hornet -- It can jump and is armed with an LRM. Still the speed is a bit too slow for comfortable on a light.

I'll give you that...  And having a single of each of the 2 lasers was a "HU" moment for me.

VLK-QA Valkyrie -- Big brother of the Hornet.

Always loved the valkyires..  Near max armor, great heat capacity. 

LCT-1V Locust -- Good speed, if only the armament was better.

True, but used against vehicles or infantry it was a terror!!!

PNT-9R Panther -- If it only was faster. 4/6/4 on a light makes me uncomfortable.

True, plus carrying a PPC makes it a massive threat. 

JVN-10N Javelin -- Solid, but unspectacular.

Its Twin SRMs worked wonders for me..  Great back stabber for crit seeking.

HER-1A Hermes -- Fast, decent weapons, barely adequate armor.

Always lost them to head caps before they got anywhere...  Wonder why?>

SDR-5V Spider -- If is only had a bit more armor

Great movement, solid rear punch for enemies...  The low armor can be overlooked since very few things were hitting it back then.

FS9-H Firestarter -- Decent as an normal anti-mech light, brutal against infantry.

True..  I had good luck with them as smoke screen makers.. 

JR7-D Jenner -- A brutal striker that needs more armor.

Agreed.  Weak armor was its only downfall imo.

WLF-1 Wolfhound -- Great armor, great armament, and the movement profile does not hurt all that much since it is a 35 tonner.

Of the 2 wolfs (this and the trap), i much prefer it.

MON-67 Mongoose -- Fast, good armor for its weight and good weapon array.

Agreed.   This was one of the best designed ones.......  Though i wonder if they dropped it to 7/11/6 with stripping the Small laser, would it have made it better??

[Kovax]

From least favorite to most:

OTT-7J Ostscout - Without the original electronics, it has no purpose on the field.
FLC-4N Falcon - This sad excuse can only dream of achieving mediocrity.
HSR-300-D Hussar - If it gets hit, it's dead.
THE-S Thorn - Not enough speed or armor to survive a fight.
FLE-4 Flea - Nuisance factor only.
HNT-151 Hornet - Another forgettable nuisance, makes tiny dents at long range.
RVN-1X Raven - Without the recovered electronics, somewhat underwhelming.
STG-3R Stinger - Usable against infantry or light vehicles, or for recon.
VLK-QA Valkyrie - Can't outgun what it can't outrun, but OK as "support".
WSP-1A Wasp - With Infernos, it has a purpose, otherwise worse than STG.
SDR-5V Spider - Speed, but not much armor or weaponry.  Useful in some roles.
UM-R60 UrbanMech - Area denial vs "bugs", but dead meat if it faces a Medium.
COM-2D Commando - Packs decent firepower into 25T.
JVN-10N Javelin - Serious crit seeker, but needs to work with a hole-puncher.
PNT-9R Panther - Can outgun what it can't outrun, unless something big shows up.
FS9-H Firestarter - Good against infantry, decent against other light 'Mechs.
JR7-D Jenner - Excellent backstabber design suffers from lack of armor and HS.
WLF-1 Wolfhound - A Medium 'Mech in a 35T package, well armed and armored.
HER-1A Hermes - Awesome speed, with enough weapons and armor to do the job.
LCT-1V Locust - Kills stuff twice its weight with regularity.  A bargain for 20T.
MON-67 Mongoose - Killer blend of weapons, armor, and speed in a tiny package.

Tonnage definitely comes into play here.  I put a few very light designs further toward the "good" because they're good for their tonnage, not because they'd beat a heavier Light.  Several are promoted or demoted a few notches just because I personally don't like the looks or the layout, etc.

The lack of tonnage for engines, weapons, armor, and other equipment means that most Lights do one or two things well at the expense of the other roles.  Trying to use them all the same way will give very "skewed" results.  On the other hand, trying to justify the OST having only a ML at 35T is pretty difficult any way you look at it.

The earlier "Assassin" argument just highlights the issue, where having absolutely minimal firepower (at all ranges) is pitiful, but the ability to put it wherever it needs to be offsets that to a considerable degree (but not enough to make it "good", in my opinion).  As for the psychological effect versus actual damage, I've seen an ASN steadily harass and eventually destroy a much more powerful opponent that had no ability to fire into its rear arc.  I've also seen case where a harassed "victim" ended up a movement phase with nothing better to shoot at, and managed to nail that "nuisance" 'Mech with a big gun even at 11-to-hit.  With a PPC or LL, all it takes is one good hit, and the ASN is facing the chance of crits on such small details as leg actuators or gyros.

[StoneRhino]

14 )FLE-4 Flea- Its a funky little mech that doesn't take much of a beating and not something to be used in a serious fight against other mechs. Kind of a smaller Firestarter

13)FS9-H Firestarter- I like the idea of the design, I like its funky look. Its great for burning stuff and that means turning softies into crunchies..or was that crispies? Within its role its good, but fighting anything with armor its not very effective, though its great for heating stuff up.

12)THE-S Thorn- Just because of it's range does it beat the above mentioned mechs. I really think its ugly appearance I am not liking the design more.



11)LUmped together because I really do not feel that they really stand out in any way, but are decent designs nonetheless.
HER-1A Hermes
STG-3R Stinger
WSP-1A Wasp
VLK-QA Valkyrie

10) RVN-1X Raven- I just don't think the design can ever get the credit it would deserve outside of a series of double blind games where its electronics would really shine over any light mech that lacks the same gear.

9)HSR-300-D Hussar- Lacking in armor, but it's large laser and speed make it an interesting design for sure. It is due to its willingness to try and specialize in something at the cost of another attribute instead of trying to get everything perfect, like that friend you had that when making dnd characters would sit there for hours rerolling in an attempt to get all 18s.

8)SDR-5V Spider- Not to much to say, fast, jumpy, lasers.

7)MON-67 Mongoose- Fast and 3 medium lasers. It is the typical light mech design. Its placement on the list is more technical then anything else. The look is alright, the weapons configuration is practical, it is a model light mech nothing more, nothing less.

6)PNT-9R Panther- One could say it is on par or a better Urbanmech, but it just lacks the flavor needed to dethrone Urbygoodness. It gets #6 because its not the fastest light mech around but packs one of the biggest guns short of an ac20. I do have a softspot for short lightmechs that go heavy on the guns, such as the Kitfox and Articfox to name a few, but the panther just isn't one of them.

5)COM-2D Commando- I really should bump it up a notch at least, but that is based more on my like of SRMs and the look of the mini/design. I do have a hard time putting it in a game because of its weak armor.

4)WLF-1 Wolfhound- Sort of a tough combo to beat in 3025 on a light mech. Its one of those mechs that can be upgraded, but really, its hard to mess with success. Great weapons set up, but a bit flavorless.

3) JVN-10N Javelin- PRobably the first mini that I ever bought. Also, gotta love srms.

2) UM-R60 UrbanMech- Small, cheap, big gun, Urby is the #1 underdog in the BT universe and thats why it gets so much love. Its great within its environment. It beats out the firestarter and Flea because of the AC10's anti-armor capability and range.

1)JR7-D Jenner- A mech that I did not really get into until I really got into the CCG. It is damn close to the perfect purebred light mech.

Useless in my opinion, or just plain forgettable:
OTT-7J Ostscout
FLC-4N Falcon
HNT-151 Hornet
LCT-1V Locust -Yeah, I said it, sue me! >:D

[StoneRhino]

Which is fine, but I suspect that most folks are approaching this sort of discussion based on "are these mechs worth using in a fight" rather than "I think the Flea is the best mech of the lot 'cause it looks like one of those Star Wars things!" I mean, no one is going to tell you not to like something you like for reasons other than effectiveness, but given that I suspect that most folks are coming at this discussion from the angle of "these mechs are good to use in a fight and these are not", it is probably going to result in people talking past each other.

Well, ya know, we are familiar with your feelings on things like that. You can always just ignore that part of the discussion. All things being equal, it went as smooth as could be hoped.

Thats where I come in. :))  There are just some designs that I will not use because they look like garbage to me. Their stats might be great, but I am repelled by the ugly, such as the stalker. Great stats, great weapon set up, but damned if I am going to be running a giant phallic object with legs and say I really like doing so.

Mechs such as the firestarter are great in a particular capacity, and get credit for such, but do take a hit due to its inability to really do solid damage. I love setting stuff on fire in game, so I needed to give it more credit then the damage output and range formula(along with other numbers related to a design) would give it.

If there were games where things were different, then some designs would get a serious bump in rank because of their increased usefulness. Unfortunately though, as you said, since the game is more about slugfests then larger scale, roaming massive battles as one of the guys described playing a few times, light mechs are going to have their ratings tweaked heavily due to either speed or damage output.  I do mean unfortunately as I feel that light mechs really do not get to scout outside of fluff and double blind games.

[bakija]

So fully realizing that this thread had drifted down to the bottom of the page, I was reading through the 3039 TRO and figured I'd re-address the "newer" (i.e. not in the game since 1985) mechs in the book, as I'm certainly not as familiar with them as the classic standards.

-Raven: A strange one that isn't really something that can be judged on guns and speed and armor, what with the 21% of its mass (7.5 tons) of EW equipment (which is, what, exactly? 5x EW rigs?). But it does still have reasonable firepower with 2xML and an SRM6. But why 2 extra heat sinks instead of 2 extra tons of armor? That seems deeply nonsensical. With 10 heat sinks, it can run, fire all of its guns, and generate +2 net heat. Which is a totally reasonable spot for mechs of this era. Why is this particular mech given perfect heat sinking capacities at the cost of reasonable armor?

-Wolfhound: As noted by pretty much everyone in this thread, the Wolfhound is probably the best light in the mix--fast at 6/9, maximum armor for the chassis, and a solid 1xLL/3xML (and then an extra ML pointing backwards) as firepower. Its like it was designed by someone who was good at understanding and playing Battletech the game rather than either being reverse engineered from a unconnected to a game drawing (see: most of the original BT mechs) or by an imaginary mech engineer that is constrained by non game related design issues (like the fluctuating costs of laserium stocks, the most important element in making lasers...). If it has a flaw, it is the flaw that is covered by the one listed variant--take out the rear ML (which it doesn't need, being small and fast) and replace it with an 11th heat sink (which it could certainly use).

-Thorn: Certainly no worse than the Wasp and Stinger, and arguably better; yeah, it lacks the jump jets, but with an LRM5 and 2xML, significantly more impressive (relatively speaking) firepower. Not gonna blow anyone's mind or anything, but totally reasonable for a 20 tonner. Good for mid-long range fire support, ok in close while being tiny and cheap.

-Flea: Also 20 tons, but much less good than the Thorn. Heavily armed with more guns than it can afford to fire, but with paper thin armor. Why not make a completely solid 20 ton mech that is 6/9 with a LL and 4 tons of armor by taking out the 2xSL and the Flamer? That would be a totally reasonable and incredibly obvious unit. That somehow has never been published anywhere (?), yet we get this and the Hussar, both of which are significantly flawed.

-Hornet: Just like the Thorn, but trading some speed for some jump jets (5/8/5 instead of 6/9) and one of the MLs for an SL. Not at all horrible for what it is (i.e. a 20 tonner). Also arguably better than either the Wasp or the Stinger.

-Mongoose: Just like the Wolfhound, but 10 tons lighter. Fast at 8/12, maximum armor, heavily armed with 3xML and 1xSL. Also apparently designed by someone who was good at playing Battletech and not a made up, arbitrarily restrained mech engineer (please no one take this previous statement as harsh criticism of made up, arbitrarily restrained mech engineers). Probably the second best light mech in the class of 3039 (leaving the very solid and personal favorite of the old school Panther as pick #3 from the top).

-Falcon: Fast at 6/9/6, almost maximum armor, but not horrible yet not real impressive firepower with 1xML, 2xSL forward and 2xMG backwards. Not something I'd take if I had the choice, but probably fine for attacking smaller mechs or fighting ground forces.

-Hermes: Superfast at 9/14, mediocre firepower (that is similar to the Falcon) with 2xML and 1x Flamer, but less armor than most 20 ton mechs while being a 30 tonner. Also not a first pick, or even a 5th pick, but if you really need to get somewhere fast and shoot something along the way, not completely horrible.

-Hussar: Also superfast at 9/14, significantly armed with the 1xLL, but with less armor than, well, pretty much any other mech out there with only 1.5 tons total. Not good. The speed helps keep it alive, but the longish range of the LL isn't long enough to keep it from getting shot. And a single lucky shot from anything will probably kill it. Give it a 240 engine so it moves 8/12 instead of 9/14 and you get 3 more tons for armor while being almost exactly the same, and you have something not that bad.

[Saul]

They are all good or bad, depending on the situation. But some people seem only capable to win if they field the best optimized units.
Well thats why I love my rpg campaigns and stay away from tournaments.

[bakija]

They are all good or bad, depending on the situation.

This is true? But not real enlightening in a thread about ranking and rating mechs?

Well thats why I love my rpg campaigns and stay away from tournaments.

That is fantastic.

[Spartan117]

Would never use:
21. UM-R60 UrbanMech
20. HSR-300-D Hussar
19. JVN-10N Javelin
18. THE-S Thorn
17. WSP-1A Wasp
16. HNT-151 Hornet
15. FLC-4N Falcon
14. FLE-15 Flea

Only in Special Circumstances:
13. STG-3R Stinger
12. RVN-1X Raven
11. LCT-1V Locust
10. FS9-H Firestarter

Use with Regularity:
9. COM-2D Commando
8. OTT-7J Ostscout
7. HER-1A Hermes
6. JR7-D Jenner
5. SDR-5V Spider

Best of the Best:
4. VLK-QA Valkyrie
3. PNT-9R Panther
2. WLF-1 Wolfhound
1. MON-67 Mongoose

[mutantsix]

now that the Ostscout 7j has been retconned with hand actuators in TRO succession wars (new iwm miniature is awesome) does that change peoples opinion on its rank/use?

[Firesprocket]

I don't see where it really makes the 7J more or less attractive.  It has one job and that is to spot for Arty and IDF.  If it gets so close that it is going to be punching stuff the odds are it won't last terribly long.

[Kovax]

WLF-1 Wolfhound - Basically a 45 ton Phoenix Hawk, minus jumping capability, in a 35 ton package.  Yes, please, and I thank you.
MON-67 Mongoose - Fast, deadly, well armored for the tonnage.  Against other lights, it's a terror, and a powerful backstabber even versus heavies.
FS9-H Firestarter - Adequate against some Mediums, good against most Lights, devastating against light vehicles, and a war crime if anywhere near infantry.
HER-1A Hermes - Faster than the Mongoose, almost as much firepower.  What it can't kill, it can easily outrun.
JR7-D Jenner - Impressive firepower, and the speed to put those guns where they hurt most, but very thin armor for the tonnage and mission profile.
JVN-10N Javelin - OK against 'Mechs, devastating against vehicles.
SDR-5V Spider - Excellent scout with awesome maneuverability, but only an adequate backstabber due to limited weaponry.
LCT-1V Locust - Great for the tonnage, well balanced, but limited by its light weight.  Perfect for waging war on a shoestring budget.  I've killed Assaults with one of these.
UM-R60 UrbanMech - No bug 'Mech dares approach it, and a terror in terrain that negates their speed advantages, but no match for anything bigger in the open.
PNT-9R Panther - Good gun, weak chassis.  Too slow to run, too light to stay and slug it out, but very scary if it does hit you.
COM-2D Commando - Lots of missiles, but thin armor and no jump makes it too vulnerable for my liking.  Dies horribly in most games.
VLK-QA Valkyrie - LRMs and decent armor, but mediocre speed and poor defensive armament relegate it mostly to roles a vehicle should do.
RVN-1X Raven - The special equipment is what makes the Raven useful, but this experimental model lacks it.
OTT-7J Ostscout - Great movement profile makes for a good scout, but seriously under-gunned if it gets into trouble.  Not much of a combat unit.
FLC-4N Falcon - Slow, weak.  Can't outgun what it can't outrun.  No thanks.
STG-3R Stinger - Adequate speed for the weight, but thin armor and weak weaponry.
WSP-1A Wasp - Same as Stinger, but the SRM placement means it's too often outflanked and can't even use those.
HNT-151 Hornet - The LRMs aren't enough to be taken seriously, it's too slow to run away, and it's as good as dead if any real 'Mech shows up.
THE-S Thorn - I know I've used one, but it's not memorable at all.
FLE-4 Flea - One trick pony, and then it dies.
HSR-300-D Hussar - If you can't say anything nice....

[ Edit - I don't understand the poor ratings that the Firestarter gets in some lists.  It's got two MLs and a pair of MGs, plus you can fire one of the Flamers (for a total of 16 damage) and walk without building heat, so it's not as terrible as its made out to be in terms of firepower; a little bit on the weak side against 'Mechs, though.  The Spider does 10 damage max, and the Ostscout can only do 5.  Even the Panther can only inflict 18 damage at most, and sacrifices 2 points of speed to get that, which is close to suicide for a Light. ]

[Hellraiser]

I'm going to respond a little differently, and rank them by my favorites for each tonnage bracket since I really think comparing 20 to 35 tons at nearly double its size is just plain bad.


Best:  4
20-Hornet
25-Mongoose
30-Spider
35-Wolfhound


Preferred:  5
20-Locust
25- xxx
30-Valkyrie
35-Jenner, Firestarter, Ostscout


Midgrade:  9
20-Wasp, Stinger, Thorn
25-Commando
30-Hussar, Javelin, Falcon, Hermes
35-Panther, Raven


Avoid like the plague:  2     (As a Merc CO, I would literally sell these to any Planetary Militia willing to buy them ASAP)
20-Flea
25- xxx
30-Urbanmech
35- xxx

[Teulisch]

there are a few different categories- mobility, firepower, and survivability.

I have a lower opinion of most the light mechs without jump jets. for this reason, i rate the commando, locust, thorn, and hermes fairly lowly. I would also rate the falcon low on the scale, due to the sheer number of very short range weapons it carries (mg+small laser). the stinger also has an inferior amount of firepower. while anti-infantry is neccessary in the big picture, and a role well suited to light mechs, the locust, stinger, and falcon are all inferior at this compared to the firestarter.

mid-range mech, i would put the wasp, hussar(low armor), mongoose, hornet, jenner(overheats), urbanmech(slow), flea(low armor), and javelin. the raven is special, but the weight of its ECM gear in 3039, as well as the half range, really lowers its value. it would be high end in 3050.

high end, the spider and ostscout win for mobility. the panther(PPC), wolfhound, and valkyrie(LRM) win on long-range firepower. the firestarter is the best anti-infantry unit, and great at very short range firepower.

the only real difference between the spider and ostscout is that the spider has more guns(and looks cooler) while the ostscout has more armor instead. its a very near thing. we generally see the spider more often, although its BV value is higher.

for firepower, the valkyrie is your best light LRM-boat. the panther has a PPC and decent armor, with enough jump jets to stay mobile. the wolfhound lacks jump jets, but thats true of all the light mechs with large lasers.

for the best light mech, i find myself torn between the spider and the panther. i put the panther in 1st place because of my love of PPC, but the spider is a very close 2nd.

for the worst light mech, i would say the falcon. while its got good armor, it just seems poorly planned overall.

[Caedis Animus]

I feel like worrying about ammo explosions while you are piloting a 25 ton 3039 mech is kind of like worrying about Y2K when you have a gun to your head.

In regards to the OP's thoughts on the Commando.

[Black_Knyght]

The low-tech Mercury was dropped from TRO3039, with the explanation that none of the design survived the Succession Wars outside of Comstar. The same goes for the low-tech Crockett and Exterminator

Decisions like these from the powers-that-be are why we don't even waste time with "canon" anymore...

[RifleMech]

The low-tech Mercury was dropped from TRO3039, with the explanation that none of the design survived the Succession Wars outside of Comstar. The same goes for the low-tech Crockett and Exterminator

TRO Succession Wars lists the Mercury and several other extinct and exclusive designs.

[Greatclub]

Mercury was dead by 3039. It was alive and well during 1SW and probably 2SW.

It isn't TRO: 3SW.

[RifleMech]

Mercury was dead by 3039. It was alive and well during 1SW and probably 2SW.

It isn't TRO: 3SW.

The Mercury was alive and well in the ComGuards. Other extinct - or nearly so - designs also appeared in large numbers either in Wolf's Dragoons or in the ComGuards.

Also OP didn't make any exceptions for specific or extinct designs. In fact some are even listed in the post.

There is no TRO: 3SW.   

[deathfrombeyond]

How does everyone’s ranking change if the metric is battleforce 2 (or whatever the modern equivalent is) instead of Battletech?

[Greatclub]

How does everyone’s ranking change if the metric is battleforce 2 (or whatever the modern equivalent is) instead of Battletech?

Alpha Strike? I have no idea. I have the book, but it's only half digested.

[Nastyogre]

If you work in 3039 Variants like the Mirage (Firestarter-M) Jenner-F Those move right to the top. Firestarter-K with the Large Laser is an effective energy "sniper" (PLUS: Still has the Jump Jets) Firestarter-A does almost everything the H does but is tougher. Does run hot.

Locust 3E and 3V are solid even the 3S has a place.

So working in variants changes your list. In some ways, quite a bit.

Also, we aren't looking at roles here beyond combat effectiveness. In Lore, the Ostscout is considered a real prize and only the best scout pilots are assigned to them.

The Valkyrie is not usually assigned to scout lances and shines in working on slower units where the LRMs can do real damage. Vs Lights or Fast mediums the LRMS hit so infrequently that the power as an LRM platform is wasted. Then again, in Lore, LRMs are often used as suppression weapons, where no rule for that exists in game.

Wasp-W (with all the small lasers) is interesting if Niche. I've used them to annihilate lights and cause terrible damage to anything it can jump behind. They don't live long however.

Urbanmechs are solid in their environment and quite good as Vehicle escorts. Hornets can behave in a similar manner but without the good gun. Having a unit that can move late and kick an enemy looking to melee a tank (or early and leave your BFG tank to move last) is VERY effective. Especially if you can reasonably cause it a PSR to fall and then get kicked. Sure it's just 6 points of damage from the kick. No light enjoys that sort of damage, even mediums are threatened if you dropped 20+ into it and now kick it. (Or Kick it after shooting and now that mech is on the ground at the start of the next round)

Gotta look at role and think outside of the Mech vs Mech slugfest.  Unless that's all you do of course.