How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?

[Weirdo]

Oldest and (going by appearance in fiction, at least) most ubiquitous of the classic 55s, the standard Shadow Hawk is also seen by many as the weakest of the 3, with its eclectic mix of relatively light weapons. For purposes of this discussion, you are Mechwarrior Joe Bob, a pilot of regular skills, and wether by inheritance or assignment, you are in command of a stock SHD-2H Shadow Hawk. Given their prevalence across known space, you can expect at some point to have to fight GRF-1N Griffins and WVR-6R Wolverines. For now, assume a one-on-one fight against either of those opponents. What are your tactics and strategies?

PS: No customization of any kind is allowed. Citing advancing age and decades of sterling service, your nation's domestic intelligence/security agency(or mercenary commanding officer) has granted the quartermaster a medical dispensation: She will no longer be kicking the asses of spoiled brats who try to waste her time and resources with such stupidity, and is now allowed to simply shoot them instead.

[Kit deSummersville]

I'd move to get close to the Griffin and stay as close as possible, using it's minimum range to it's disadvantage. I'll reciprocate but my long range weapons are only half as powerful as his plus I have the SRMs and medium laser. Bonus points if I can set the area on fire and use my excess heat sinks to gain another advantage.

With the Wolverine, I'm going to do the opposite, keep the range as much as possible and use my LRM rack to grant me a slight advantage. Once he closes I'll yet again look to get to a place I can set on fire and negate some of his firepower with heat.

[Sartris]

I'd move to get close to the Griffin and stay as close as possible, using it's minimum range to it's disadvantage. I'll reciprocate but my long range weapons are only half as powerful as his plus I have the SRMs and medium laser. Bonus points if I can set the area on fire and use my excess heat sinks to gain another advantage.

With the Wolverine, I'm going to do the opposite, keep the range as much as possible and use my LRM rack to grant me a slight advantage. Once he closes I'll yet again look to get to a place I can set on fire and negate some of his firepower with heat.

beat me to it so i won't repost the basically identical response i had written. it's a tricky matchup because both outjump you. keeping in the griffin's kitchen will be easier than keeping the wolverine out of yours.

[William J. Pennington]

How do you drive a standard Shadowhawk? Straight to the scrap heap, where junk belongs.


Ok, but if you just have to use it....

Fighting a Griffin? Get in close, if you can,  stay there, and hope for a high heat environment. You let the game stay at ranges over 6 too long before closing in, you might dig a hole in terms of damage received that you just can't make up when you do get in close.

Wolverine, well, there isn't too much to do or say here.  Try to maximize your incredibly small long range advantage, maybe doing some chipping away with that LRM 5. Up close, that SRM-6 on the Wolverine will rapidly make up for what you did.  That and the odds are not in favor of you being able to dictate range. Pray for hot dice, that's what you need here.

[Weirdo]

I like the heat approach. Would it be worth it to load Infernos into the SRMs, or do you think it would cost you too much badly needed raw damage?

[Scotty]

I think the key to using a Shadow Hawk is to play to its own strengths and not to its opponent's weaknesses - because it does have strengths.  It just had weaknesses that are worse than the competition.

Focus primarily on skirmishing.  Keep your TMM as high as possible at all times and the distance either firmly midrange or absolutely point blank  but never in arc to be kicked.  The greatest advantage of the SHD-2H is that very few of its weapons are mounted in the arms, while the Wolverine and Griffin both put their big guns there.  Don't give your opponent the opportunity to do more damage than you; a Griffin outside of arc to kick will lose the damage fight to a Shadow Hawk handily.

Finally, don't be afraid to withdraw if you're overmatched.  They can't catch up to you unless you mess up and you have more than enough ammo to go pick on someone else when they get bored chasing or you lead them to an ambush.

[Charlie Tango]

How do you drive a standard Shadowhawk? Straight to the scrap heap, where junk belongs.

This.  So much this. 

The longer jump on either the Griffin or the Wolverine will pretty much allow them to dictate the range making it nearly impossible to stay under the Griffin's minimums or to stay away from the Wolverine's superior short range damage.  The stock Shadow Hawk will lose to either of those opponents probably 9 out of 10 times.

[William J. Pennington]

I like the heat approach. Would it be worth it to load Infernos into the SRMs, or do you think it would cost you too much badly needed raw damage?

Sadly, an SRM-2 isn't going to do enough to really irritate the Griffin heatwise. Maybe every few turns it might not shoot the PPC. It can probably time this for a turn where initiative allows it to move to safety, or the shot was terrible anyway.

[massey]

The 3 are very evenly matched.  People saying the Shadow Hawk loses 90% of the time are just wrong.  The Wolverine has a large SRM launcher, but actually has less missiles it can fire (the SRM-6 only gets 90 missiles vs the SRM-2's 100).  Against the Griffin, get in close.  Against the Wolverine, stay at 6-7 hexes if you can and keep your TMM high.

Against the Wolvie, you basically want him taking shots with his SRM at about 9s.  You're gonna run him out of ammo.  If he needs an 11 or something, he won't fire.  You want him to be tempted enough that he shoots, but still misses most of the time.

The 3 mechs perform different roles.  The Griffin gives highly mobile fire support.  The Wolverine is designed to mix it up with other mechs of its weight class.  The Shadow Hawk is a jack of all trades.  It can carry inferno missiles, specialist AC ammo, smoke LRMs, etc.  It also hits basically every range band, so it's good for shooting at multiple targets.  Park a SH in heavy woods on a hill, and fire the LRMs and AC at one target, the medium laser and SRM at another.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If I'm in A Shadow Hawk, finding myself in a one-on-one fight is the first indication I've done something horribly wrong.  At no point should a Shadow Hawk ever voluntarily solo another mech, especially one of the same weight class.

[Sartris]

If I'm in A Shadow Hawk, finding myself in a one-on-one fight is the first indication I've done something horribly wrong.  At no point should a Shadow Hawk ever voluntarily solo another mech, especially one of the same weight class.

i think the shd vs wlv is more of a even than people think (not coinflip even). when i originally looked at it, i was thinking of the short range package of the 6M, not the 6R (the former gets an extra mlas). once range closes, it's SRM-2, mlas vs SRM-6, mlas.

matches generally don't last long enough for SRM-2 endurance to matter (i'd wager in the history of the game far more SRM-2 bins have exploded than been expended). if each fires their launcher 8 times, that's 128 vs 16 missiles. it would take profoundly bad aim on both accounts for the shadow hawk to even be able to come close to delivering the same number of missiles in the course of the duel - and then it doesn't matter because none of them hit. i don't know what maps you play on, but i find it really hard to stay on the runways necessary to keep your tmm at +3 in a 5/8/3. you'd have to run away to do it. ironically the wolverine can get +3 any time it chooses to jump. it's going to take some clever maneuvering by the shadow hawk pilot because the lack of 5 jump puts it at a tactical disadvantage. hopefully the shadow hawk's plinking during closing went better.

i don't think it's a guaranteed win for the wolverine, but it's not a coin flip either

[grimlock1]

Just thinking out loud for a moment but the Shad is actually a lot like an Atlas...  Or at least 1/4 of an Atlas.

[Weirdo]

If I'm in A Shadow Hawk, finding myself in a one-on-one fight is the first indication I've done something horribly wrong.  At no point should a Shadow Hawk ever voluntarily solo another mech, especially one of the same weight class.

So if you've no interest in the question, why did you spend the time to post?

[massey]

if each fires their launcher 8 times, that's 128 vs 16 missiles. it would take profoundly bad aim on both accounts for the shadow hawk to even be able to come close to delivering the same number of missiles in the course of the duel

It's 48 missiles vs 16.  I don't know where you got 128.

- and then it doesn't matter because none of them hit. i don't know what maps you play on, but i find it really hard to stay on the runways necessary to keep your tmm at +3 in a 5/8/3. you'd have to run away to do it. ironically the wolverine can get +3 any time it chooses to jump. it's going to take some clever maneuvering by the shadow hawk pilot because the lack of 5 jump puts it at a tactical disadvantage. hopefully the shadow hawk's plinking during closing went better.

The Shadow Hawk tries to stick to the woods.  Again, you want your opponent to have like 9s to hit with his SRM, so he wastes them.  Once his SRM is dry, you can play to lower target numbers because now you've got more firepower than he does. 

[massey]

So if you've no interest in the question, why did you spend the time to post?

Probably because it seems like you started this as a "the Shadow Hawk sucks" thread, and tried to cram it into a role it wasn't supposed to perform.  Saying "this matchup is bullcrap" is a valid response.

[Weirdo]

I know it's weighted against the Shadow Hawk, that's why I asked the question. If it were weighted in the player's favor, the discussion would be pretty boring.

Lemme add an addendum to the original challenge: If you feel the fight is completely unwinnable, posting in the thread is in no way mandatory.

[Sartris]

It's 48 missiles vs 16.  I don't know where you got 128.

i apparently punched in 16*8 rather than 6*8. i was doing two other things at the same time and so there wasn't a guard left at the door to ask if that seemed right.

The Shadow Hawk tries to stick to the woods.  Again, you want your opponent to have like 9s to hit with his SRM, so he wastes them.  Once his SRM is dry, you can play to lower target numbers because now you've got more firepower than he does.

but the wolverine is also sticking to the woods and he gets a +4 on the jump. your numbers suck too. 15 salvos at 9s is 25% hit rate which yields about 4 hits. average 4 missiles on the cluster table and that's 32 damage vs your 8 damage. factor in the mlas, skirmishing damage, and the inevitable kick because you're out maneuvered and that's going to add up against you more than not. especially since not every battle has woods.

[Ruger]

Against the Griffin? In close if at all possible, as has been said, but as you can fire all your stuff up to 9 hexes with no heat worries, even at those ranges, you can outgun the Griffin simply by dent of having ammo endurance and heat endurance he lacks.

With the Wolverine? Same kind of thing, except the 6R’s heat endurance is more like yours (although he will overheat slightly on an alpha jump). Keep him at 7-9 hexes, and you should be able to outlast him, barring lucky hits.

Ruger

[Colt Ward]

i think the shd vs wlv is more of a even than people think (not coinflip even). when i originally looked at it, i was thinking of the short range package of the 6M, not the 6R (the former gets an extra mlas). once range closes, it's SRM-2, mlas vs SRM-6, mlas.

i don't think it's a guaranteed win for the wolverine, but it's not a coin flip either

Yeah, the WVR-6M is a different beast . . . lose some overall and min range for more damage & less chance of boom, I think the -6M is a easier win than the -6R.  Its also going to be easier to beat the Griffin vs Wolverine for the Shadow Hawk, get in close and be doing the physicals.  I think the Wolverine vs Shad comes down to who can find the ammo bin first.

Now one question, to me, is does it get easier for the Shadow Hawk if Design Quirks are in play?

Finally, I will mention the overlooked 55t . . . I think the Cronus 3M stands a very good chance of beating all of them, being a bit better Wolverine 6M.

[Daryk]

Sartris: If the SHD can survive those 32 points of damage (odds are it can), the WVR is out of SRM ammo, and the SHD will still have plenty of its own left, and now has the damage advantage in close, in addition to long range (where it always did).  Sure, it's not by much, but you don't need much in the long game.

As far as the Griffin, I agree with everyone else: get in close and stay there.  Absolutely load smoke rounds for the LRM-5 to make sure you can do that.  Infernos are less important for the Griffin fight.  You can get more mileage out of regular ammo for the damage.

[massey]

but the wolverine is also sticking to the woods and he gets a +4 on the jump. your numbers suck too. 15 salvos at 9s is 25% hit rate which yields about 4 hits. average 4 missiles on the cluster table and that's 32 damage vs your 8 damage.

That's perfectly fine.  If he needs 9s and you need 10s, you're winning.  He only has 15 rounds of fire before his SRM-6 runs dry.  On a 9+, he's got about a 28% chance to hit.  Some quick math says that he should hit (on average) with about 16 missiles before his ammo is gone (4 average missiles per hit, 15 shots, 28% chance).  It doesn't matter if you are hitting less frequently, your goal is to tempt him into bad shots.  After that, you maneuver for lower target numbers because now you've got more firepower than he does.

factor in the mlas, skirmishing damage, and the inevitable kick because you're out maneuvered and that's going to add up against you more than not. especially since not every battle has woods.

The extra 2 jump isn't going to be that big a deal in most terrain.  You've got 8 running that you can use to get away in an open area.  So does he, but all you really need to do is keep him getting into hand to hand in your back arc.

[Sartris]

i already agreed it was a closer matchup than anyone was giving it credit for. the shadow hawk doesn't have some kind of overwhelming advantage. the wolverine is going to connect with kicks more often than you're going to outlast an SRM-2s. wolverine wins 6/10

[Weirdo]

Quirks put some interesting wrinkles in the pointblank game. Both the Griffin and Shadow Hawk have Battlefists for an edge in melee combat, while the Wolverine's Command bonus and Extended Torso Twist make it much harder to outmaneuver it.

[Daryk]

The most maneuverable weapon on the WVR-6R is the AC/5, though... so the extended torso twist isn't too much of a worry for a SHD.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's perfectly fine.  If he needs 9s and you need 10s, you're winning.  He only has 15 rounds of fire before his SRM-6 runs dry.  On a 9+, he's got about a 28% chance to hit.  Some quick math says that he should hit (on average) with about 16 missiles before his ammo is gone (4 average missiles per hit, 15 shots, 28% chance).  It doesn't matter if you are hitting less frequently, your goal is to tempt him into bad shots.  After that, you maneuver for lower target numbers because now you've got more firepower than he does.

And if you don't tempt him into bad shots?

The extra 2 jump isn't going to be that big a deal in most terrain.  You've got 8 running that you can use to get away in an open area.  So does he, but all you really need to do is keep him getting into hand to hand in your back arc.

That only works if you don't mind flashing your rear arc at him.

[Weirdo]

The most maneuverable weapon on the WVR-6R is the AC/5, though... so the extended torso twist isn't too much of a worry for a SHD.

The point of the ETT is that even if you get directly behind a Wolverine, he can still point his laser and missiles at you.

[Daryk]

Point taken.

[massey]

i already agreed it was a closer matchup than anyone was giving it credit for. the shadow hawk doesn't have some kind of overwhelming advantage. the wolverine is going to connect with kicks more often than you're going to outlast an SRM-2s. wolverine wins 6/10

He might win 6/10.  I'm just saying I think this is the best way to fight him.  I don't think he's going to connect with more kicks.  You should be even on that.  The only time the Wolvie would have an advantage on kicks would be if you both jumped.  Since the only reason for the Shadow Hawk to jump is if he's going into terrain, the Wolvie shouldn't be kicking after both attacker and target jump.

[Elmoth]

Go melee range. Rip out your own AC5. Use it like a club to whack the enemy mechs in the head. 2-handed.

[Hellraiser]

Of the 2 the Wolverine is the harder fight I think.

Griffin's main gun is far too much heat to fight effectively with those JJ's for very long.

The LRMs have that nasty minimum range.

Even if the Griffin wins initiative & gets a good range, movement+alpha strike = "Its getting hot in here"

ShadowHawk that charges forward, to get into melee range is going to be able to outlast the Griffin baring some lucky double tapping locations w/ the PPC.



With the Wolverine on the other hand, the S-Hawk needs to turn around an RUN.

Seriously, use rolling maps & run those LRM's dry if for no other reason than to empty the bin to avoid ammo explosions.

Stay as far away as possible because in close the cool running AC w/ extra 2 JJ's & 4 more SRMs is going to add up quickly.



I agree w/ the 6/10 odds for both of them.

I think the S-Hawk could take the Griffin 6/10 but I think the Wolverine can take the S-Hawk 6/10.

With rolling maps the Griffin can keep the range open but it never really has a solid Firepower advantage since it can't afford to fire both weapons at once.

Meanwhile AlphaStrike is something the S-Hawk has 0 problem doing with its OVER HS chassis.