How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?

[Hellraiser]

On a side note.

I find all 3 of the 55 ton mechs would be so much more effective if they had some tweaks to what each visual weapon was.

The Wolverine w/ PPC & 2 Extra HS,  for AC.

The Griffin w/ LL & Less Ammo with 14 HS & +1 Armor instead of the PPC.

The S-Hawk w/ either PPC or LL to pack on more HS/Armor.

Same weapon layouts, just better heat weapon choices for the heat management.

[Daryk]

No extra JJ for the S-Hawk?  ???

[Hellraiser]

Oh yeah, that too, hehe.

[DarkSpade]

If I'm remembering correctly how the griffon is laid out I'd say my number one goal would be to stay on its right side as much as possible.   

Similar strategy for the wolverine, but probably wouldn't be as effective.

[Scotty]

That only works if you don't mind flashing your rear arc at him.

I feel the need to point out that if you're occasionally showing rear armor at your opponent you are actually using it.  Several games recently around here have come down to the wire, and the major difference in the last couple turns ends up being "my opponent wasted 10 damage on my rear armor instead of my front".

EDIT: also that the AC/5 can still be used at point blank range without interfering with melee.  Twenty shots is more than enough ammo to fire it every time and wring an extra 15-20 damage out of a fight.  The LRM less-so, admittedly, but a Shadow Hawk and a Wolverine standing in each others' right/left side hexes is actually to the Shadow Hawk's favor.

[Fallen_Raven]

Are Thunder munitions an option? A 5-point field isn't much, but it would give you something that a Wolverine can't. More importantly, you can take advantage of your heat sinks every turn even if you have terrible shots.

[R.Tempest]

 I realize it is rare and not one of the classic trio, but what about the Scorpion? PPC will hit you at range, SRM6 for close in work & faster.

[Sartris]

no torso twist and no jump make jack a dull boy. losing initiative is terrifying

[Scotty]

I realize it is rare and not one of the classic trio, but what about the Scorpion? PPC will hit you at range, SRM6 for close in work & faster.

You realize this thread is "How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?" and not "what 55 ton Medium would you use?", right?

That said, the topical answer of "how would a Shadow Hawk fare against a Scorpion" is pretty securely in the Shadow Hawk's favor.  I have a very, very low opinion on the subset of 3025 'Mechs that are incapable of firing one of their primary weapons while moving without generating excess heat.

And I say that as someone who really enjoys 'Mechs that can overheat for a bit of added punch.  Key word added.

[Hellraiser]

Once again, forum members demonstrate why moderators use banhammers - anything more subtle just wouldn't be noticed.

One thread. Just ONE ****** THREAD with NO ****** CUSTOMS. Is that really too ****** much to ask for?

So the discussion of a random tweak is now the posting of a custom design as opposed to literally posting a HMPro (Insert other design program) full text file.

Good to know. 

I had no idea it was a ban-able offense & yet swear I see XYZ references all the time to this or that minor change to improve it.

My bad.

The way you worded it made it seem like we weren't supposed to discuss now to beat a Wolverine/Griffin w/ a Customized-Shadowhawk but only the 2H.

[Scotty]

I had no idea it was a ban-able offense & yet swear I see XYZ references all the time to this or that minor change to improve it.

My bad.

The way you worded it made it seem like we weren't supposed to discuss now to beat a Wolverine/Griffin w/ a Customized-Shadowhawk but only the 2H.

In this particular instance, I think Weirdo is more irritated that you either didn't read or ignored the OP.  Based on that last sentence, I'm leaning toward "ignored" and I'd be irritated, too.  This isn't the thread for minor tweaks, this is the thread for using the Shadow Hawk 2H.

@Weirdo: what year?  Any kind of special AC ammo allowed?  Precision goes a looooong way to evening the fight, letting the AC/5 contribute clear up to point blank range against other fast skirmishers.

[Weirdo]

It is not a warnable offense to post minor customizations. It is incredibly rude to post them in a thread where the OP specifically asked people not to. If I have to say
NO CUSTOMIZATION POSTS OF ANY KIND
at the beginning, middle, and end of every thread I start, I will. Maybe that's the level of subtlety required for folks to actually respect someone's request. Talk about ruining the narrative flow of a post, though.

@Weirdo: what year?  Any kind of special AC ammo allowed?  Precision goes a looooong way to evening the fight, letting the AC/5 contribute clear up to point blank range against other fast skirmishers.

The intent is a Succession Wars-era fight, but given that all three mechs in question are in service clear through the Dark Age, I'm fine with funky ammo talk. Goes both ways though, you give the Shad precision rounds, there's no reason a Wolverine can't as well.

[grimlock1]

Sartris: If the SHD can survive those 32 points of damage (odds are it can), the WVR is out of SRM ammo, and the SHD will still have plenty of its own left, and now has the damage advantage in close, in addition to long range (where it always did).  Sure, it's not by much, but you don't need much in the long game.

As far as the Griffin, I agree with everyone else: get in close and stay there.  Absolutely load smoke rounds for the LRM-5 to make sure you can do that.  Infernos are less important for the Griffin fight.  You can get more mileage out of regular ammo for the damage.

What about Thunder?  Force the Griff to either jump to maintain defensive movement mods, or slow down to shoot more accurately, and allow you to close faster.

[BloodRose]

Its a simple answer Weirdo.
What is the terrain like?

If I am against the Griffin I want close terrain, canyons and hills, dense forests, etc. I want to be able to completely negate his LOS until I am close enough to spring out and ambush him at PB range. If its an open field I am fethed and there is no way I want to be fighting that fight because I will never come close. He will take me apart at long range and I will die.

Against the Wolverine the opposite is true. I want to be running from the forests and the hills as fast as my chunky 55 tonner legs can carry me and finding the most open field possible so I can keep the range open and plink away with my LRM 5. I dont want to close until I have expended my AC and LRM bins and by that point he is hopefully battered enough that my Mlaser and SRM 2 can finish the job faster than his Mlaser and ARM 6 can return the favour. If he is in an M though then just forget it. No way in hell am I closing with that.

[Weirdo]

Its a simple answer Weirdo.
What is the terrain like?

You don't know, and can't until the mapsheets are laid down.

If he is in an M

The Wolverine absolutely is not a -6M. The original post made it perfectly clear what variants are being discussed.

[BloodRose]

Well then I cant really say.... Not gonna lie Weirdo I would be wanting to pick my field and if the terrain looked bad I would be toddling off as fast as I could as there is no way I want to tangle with either of those on anything less than optimal ground. Both of them have significant advantages over my Shadowhawk and if the terrain favours them over me it is game over.
Certainly the Griffin is the easiest prey though as I just need to get in close. The Wolverine? Hell nope.

[grimlock1]

Well then I cant really say.... Not gonna lie Weirdo I would be wanting to pick my field and if the terrain looked bad I would be toddling off as fast as I could as there is no way I want to tangle with either of those on anything less than optimal ground. Both of them have significant advantages over my Shadowhawk and if the terrain favours them over me it is game over.
Certainly the Griffin is the easiest prey though as I just need to get in close. The Wolverine? Hell nope.

That is a good point that we can often forget, especially in non-campaign play.  Some times you look at the other guy and decide, "This isn't a fight I want to be in."  Sure, there are days when the only thing standing between a Level II Archangels and an orphanage is you and your Urbanmech.

[DarkSpade]

That is a good point that we can often forget, especially in non-campaign play.  Some times you look at the other guy and decide, "This isn't a fight I want to be in."  Sure, there are days when the only thing standing between a Level II Archangels and an orphanage is you and your Urbanmech.

Yeah, in that case, you can us the orphanage for cover.

[Orin J.]

Really, the answer to "how does a Shadow hawk fight-" is always go get help. it's strong suit is it works really well with almost anyone thanks to a flexible weapons loadout and relatively balanced approach to armor and mibility.

One thread. Just ONE ****** THREAD with NO ****** CUSTOMS. Is that really too ****** much to ask for?

but then how can the point out energy weapons are so much better than that dirty AC/5? they have to help us see the light from their flashbulbs!  ::)

Somehow, the laserzombies don't understand we're all well aware of the weight/crits of energy weapons and think they're telling us valuable information when they complain autocannons are heavy. the OP explictly stated stock, no mods allowed to begin with anyways so it's against regs and entirely off topic!

[grimlock1]

Yeah, in that case, you can us the orphanage for cover.

 8)
Note to self:  DarkSpade is not to be left unsupervised while in proximity to civilians...

[Orin J.]

8)
Note to self:  DarkSpade is not to be left unsupervised while in proximity to civilians...

it's way faster to use a whitelist for acceptable forces to use in close operation with civvies, and leads to fewer.....er, surprises.

[Daryk]

If terrain is unspecified, then the only correct answer is "it depends".  If you don't fight differently based on the terrain, you're doing something wrong.

[Liam's Ghost]

I feel like I would be most confident fighting the Griffin, but not by much. I'd want to stay glued to his right side as much as possible, because that's where all his guns live. That might let him deliver more punishment over the short term, but the Griffin doesn't really have the heat sinks to keep up with that rate of fire. In raw damage, the shadow hawk can actually keep up pretty good at close (3-4 hexes) range, and if I can get that right torso, the fight's done.

EDIT: I should probably mention that the higher jump range of the Griffin might be an asset for the shadow hawk in such a duel. Their ground speed is identical, so if the Griffin is determined to keep the range up, they'd need to lean on those jump jets, building up heat and giving them a worse target every time. The long range guns also kill the "jump behind him" tactic, since it's not really enough to put some distance between the two of you when you do it, so you're burning heat and stacking minimum range modifiers on jumping modifiers for a vanishingly small chance of hitting the rear armor.

The wolverine is trickier. You can outshoot him at long range, but not by enough for me to really feel comfortable (the difference is such that the dice can steal that advantage at any time). In close, he's simply out-shooting you, but if design quirks are in play, I might actually want to risk it. If you can get physical, he's got that cramped cockpit. Any piloting skill roll he has to make, he's doing with a penalty, and any time you can get him to fall helps.

It's... not much to hang a strategy on. In fact, neither of these are remotely assured wins. Maybe one can do better depending on the terrain, but sight unseen those are my best thoughts.

[BloodRose]

I think the big problem here is that we really are not playing to the Shads strengths. The Shad is not a stand up fighter, at least not by the Succession Wars era standards. Its a skirmisher and more importantly a raider. Look at it, the majority of its firepower is torso mounted, it has both those hands free. It does not want to be out fighting on the front lines, it wants to be punching into the enemies base, grabbing some loot and then firing whatever it cant nick with inferno SRM's.
The entire design screams raider to me, and its only the proliferation of them really means they see front line combat in any number at all.

[monbvol]

Hmmm....

The battle fists of the Griffen actually trouble me for getting too close and if the Griffen is also psychotic enough to hot load it's LRMs that is even more trouble.  Of course that it can deal 10 points of damage in a single cluster gives it a chance to end the fight in one shot if the dice decide it doesn't help either.

Still I don't think there is much choice but to close in as quickly as possible and try to keep my TMMs up while using what cover I can.

With 4/5 pilots, no quirks, and no SPAs in play I'd give this to the Griffin 6/10.  Add in quirks and I'll bump the Griffin to 7/10 just on those alone.

The Wolverine does present the bigger challenge.  It may not have battle fists but the Command Mech quirk and it being slightly more mobile does present problems.  It'll be very difficult to maintain range, especially if terrain starts getting even the slightest bit thick.  This might actually be where I consider hot loading my own LRMs and just saying screw it so I can increase my odds of forcing PSRs.  If I can't hot load, well I'll be honest I don't like my odds here at all but like others say it is all about keeping the range in my favor as long as possible.

Easy 7/10 for the Wolverine but even a little luck will mean the Wolverine will know it was in a fight every time.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If I'm in A Shadow Hawk, finding myself in a one-on-one fight is the first indication I've done something horribly wrong.  At no point should a Shadow Hawk ever voluntarily solo another mech, especially one of the same weight class.

I was going to post something along these lines myself.

"Obviously" the Shadow Hawk is something that was designed to be employed en masse.  Sure the days of entire battalions of the same mech are long gone, but that doesn't change what it was designed for.  A Shadow Hawk fighting solo has already lost the battle. Some mechs can pull off gladiatorial heroics... a Shadow Hawk isn't one of them.  It is best employed as a part of a lance. The beauty (such as it is) of a Shadow Hawk in the 3025 era isn't that it can win one on one battles but that it can contribute to whatever task the lance has at hand.

Any task.

It's THE poster child for "Jack of all Trades" design. It's even got 2 hands, so if all else fails it can be the poor mech tasked with physically carrying the loot rather than fighting.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This might actually be where I consider hot loading my own LRMs and just saying screw it so I can increase my odds of forcing PSRs.

The Shadow Hawk is completely incapable of forcing a PSR through weapon-fire alone.  Its maximum potential damage is 19 points. That being said, hot-loading the LRMs would be a very good option, if allowed.

[monbvol]

Oh I know.  It is all about seeing if I can not only force a PSR from a kick but also one from 20+ damage.

[Liam's Ghost]

I feel like there's a whole lot of "weapons I want" and not "weapons I've got" going on here.

The idea that someone who finds themselves in this fight has done something wrong loses validity when the "something wrong" happens to be "be the only guy available to do the job".

The Star League and its "a mech for every situation" way of doing things was a long time ago, and if we're talking the stock 2H and its classic friends, the era of "definitely better options" is a long way off.

[Apocal]

I feel like there's a whole lot of "weapons I want" and not "weapons I've got" going on here.

The idea that someone who finds themselves in this fight has done something wrong loses validity when the "something wrong" happens to be "be the only guy available to do the job".

The Star League and its "a mech for every situation" way of doing things was a long time ago, and if we're talking the stock 2H and its classic friends, the era of "definitely better options" is a long way off.

A long way off? This thread is about fighting the better options.