Author Topic: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses  (Read 10542 times)

kaliban

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Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« on: 26 July 2019, 23:39:05 »
I am looking to play a scenario including static defenses, like LRM carriers in trenches, minefields, fixed turrets, etc

I was not lucky to find good references. Any recommendation?

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #1 on: 26 July 2019, 23:40:41 »
you'll probably have to design it yourself. tactical operations has most of those shenanigans

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #2 on: 27 July 2019, 06:16:10 »
Yeah designing it yourself is the best way.  You can use the building making rules for turrets in TO or just make trailers using vehcke rules that troops can haul into position beforehand.

Don't forget to put in Hull down positions for Tanks which I believe is also in TO.  Those tanks have frustrated my players to no end

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #3 on: 27 July 2019, 07:20:10 »
I am looking to play a scenario including static defenses, like LRM carriers in trenches, minefields, fixed turrets, etc

I was not lucky to find good references. Any recommendation?

McCarron’s Armored Cavalry is all about scenarios with static defenses.  The pdf is on the Catalyst store.  Enjoy the Primary Missile Hells, ‘Mech Traps, and Mosquito Turrets.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #4 on: 27 July 2019, 08:39:25 »
They also exist in this download https://bg.battletech.com/download/HexPack%20Promotion%201.pdf

While the title is hex pack promo it has several different fortifications in it.  You will have transfer it to a sheet or other item for record keeping.  I've had that downloaded for about 4 years now, but it was only last year did I actually open it after it was pointed out to me there all those fortifications were in there.

Colt Ward

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #5 on: 27 July 2019, 12:36:55 »
For a scenario, in the MWDA one of the novels about the Swordsworn basically had a amphibious assault . . . you could basically pull that out of Normandy history for D-Day.  Attackers are some mechs wading ashore and by the time some poke out of the water (if you had Depth 2) then hovertanks come on the map.  But to keep the HT too powerful, have L2 cliffs and the 'openings' between the cliffs be mostly blocked- like mines or even light CF (think Dragon's Teeth) so they have to blast a path.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #6 on: 29 July 2019, 08:30:37 »
I am looking to play a scenario including static defenses, like LRM carriers in trenches, minefields, fixed turrets, etc

I was not lucky to find good references. Any recommendation?

Look up "bastion fortress" and "star fortress" for ideas from the real world. The layered defenses of castles make little to no sense when nukes are flying, but since you can equip your buildings with BattleTech's magic armor the rules used for laying out defenses make sense on a tabletop.

Someone mentioned McCarron's Armored Cavalry already. I'd add that Jihad Hot Spots: Terra has examples of Castles Brian and their supporting facilities like gun turrets, etc. as well.

And the Objectives series has some info, but it basically boils down to:
1. Weapons produced at the plant are likely to be used by the plant's static defenses.
2. Plants that are in areas without civilians nearby use heavier and more explosive weapons. Plants in cities with civilians tend to not use artillery or other AE weapons.
3. There is no set standard for plant defenses. Every defensive site is tailored to maximize the defender's advantage via intelligent use of terrain.
4. Plants that are on the same world often share equipment for defenses. The Bulldog Enterprises factory on Proserpina uses missile launchers from Guided Technologies, for example.

Here's a quote from Objectives: Draconis Combine:
Quote from: Objectives: Draconis Combine, p. 43
The Bulldog Enterprises plant on
Proserpina is a completely different matter. Since the world has been
invaded dozens of times by significant enemy forces, there are no less
than fifty turrets within a kilometer of the plant, housed alone or in coopted
buildings in Conqueror’s Pride. Closer to the site, overlapped
batteries of missiles from the nearby Guided Technologies plant await
attempted airstrikes, while anti-BattleMech and anti-armor roadblocks
and deadfall traps line the various street approaches. Typical
Combine tunnel systems throughout the city provide fast avenues of
response for the defending forces. Additional heavy defenses, from
artillery to a company of their homemade tanks stand ready to defend
the factory itself should any enemy draw within range of their guns.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #7 on: 29 July 2019, 08:46:14 »
For some rather terrifying fortifications, look at Jihad Hot Spots: Terra.  Castles Brian are covered starting on page 201.  Everything is armed to the teeth and the weakest structure is 100 points of armor with 100 CF.  Anything bigger than a just a couple guns in a block house is built using Capital scale armor and CF.

For a bit of scale.  If you come at the Anti-Aerospace bunker, you be charging into the teeth of at least 8 large pulse lasers, 12 LB-x 10s, 9 LRM-20+Artemis, 2 SRM-6+Artemis, 2 machine guns, 2 medium pulse lasers, 1-2 flamers, oh and 6 Thumpers. If that doesn't sound horrifying, remember that you need to chew threw 1,000 points of armor before you can even get started on the CF! 
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #8 on: 29 July 2019, 22:58:32 »
Don't forget you can add a chain-link fence for 1 CF per hexside to stop Infantry, half Level only. A Level 1, 2CF hexside Wall can be armored for 2 points as well... Fun things to armor a wall on top of a hillside!

Best way to make Dragon's Teeth is to create a Level 1 CF pillbox building surrounded by a row of Clear hexes, followed by Depth 1 depressions in a checkers patteren. Couple lines of this will force a mech to slow down and be opened to pre-plotted artillery and surprise AC/20 back shots! Nastier if you mined a few of those depressions...

Stagger the depressions with clear hexes leading up to a Painbox ( AC/20 backside ). Underwater use Medium Lasers and SRT's. Having a Command Tower, Level 2 CF pillbox to allow LRM's ( LRT's ) and AC/5's ( large Lasers ) to reach out and touch them with love at range!

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #9 on: 30 July 2019, 08:51:02 »
Well damn.  I wish I had known about this like two months ago.  I am literally playing a small campaign right now that consists of an enemy pirate organization attacking a WoB held Capital city.  The biggest fortifications I am using are a Level II wall, some minefields, and two platoons of Autocannon-2 Field Guns :( 

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #10 on: 30 July 2019, 11:15:01 »
tsk tsk, ALWAYS visit the forums for evil ideas . . . for instance, I THINK there are rules about inferno mines and you have all sorts of fun with fluid guns.  Then you get the mines in water hexes- so besides ripping armor they have to roll a breach check . . . controlled flooding zones, that can create swamp hexes.  Keep hovertanks off with rubble hexes (which can IMO be fluffed as the Dragon's Teeth) . . . tank/mech traps- use hidden basement or the lava?magma? hex rules.  Masked LRM batteries able to throw out Thunder LRMs then able to support with IDF fire guided by hidden LP/OP infantry squads.

And artillery . . . always artillery because . . .

“An obstacle loses 50% of its value if you stand back from it, allowing the enemy to reconnoitre the approaches and subsequently to cross without interference.”
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Found a interesting link, I recognize some chunks from manuals.
http://armchairgeneral.com/tactics-101-032-obstacle-emplacement.htm
Colt Ward
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #11 on: 30 July 2019, 11:30:54 »
Wow.

I used dug in tanks and I felt like I was going to break the game. This looks bonkers.

Tangoforone

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #12 on: 30 July 2019, 12:15:29 »
I could probably validate destroying some buildings and plowing rubble around to block off various city roads from vehicles.  I will definitely entrench infantry into buildings if they breach the walls.  If I manage to push them back towards their dropship I will probably blow up a highway that crosses over a large swamp.  That could definitely be used to slow down their tracked/wheeled equipment.

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #13 on: 30 July 2019, 13:11:42 »
Part of setting up fortifications & defenses is how to fluff/describe for the effect you want . . .

For example, farm lands can become excellent improv defenses . . . freshly disc'd up land is very easy to hide mines in.  You can also dig out a tank trap (L2 hole) and have a easy job of hiding it with turned over dirt on canvas or thin wood.  To make the tank trap worse, make it a L1 hole with a Depth 1 water hex at the bottom . . . with a 5 to 10 point charge- tanks drown (salvage!), mechs have to perform at least 2 breach checks, 3 if they fall instead of landing on their feet.  A single breach on a leg will cripple a mech.

Fluff-wise you can also pump water from a canal, river or use farm irrigation to make a belt of temporary swamp belt.  Or just divert a canal to flood low ground.  Freshly turned earth 4 to 8  inches is enough of a hindrance to movement b/c you lose traction.  Give it enough water and its a huge problem for crossing which would qualify for mechs, BA, and vehicles to get stuck . . . which gives you a easier chance to hit anything stuck and at least breaks up a enemy advance.

Mechs with hands can tear concrete/cinderblock walls off buildings to place rubble that is angled/propped to keep hovers from moving through a hex.  They can take structural steel and either twist or temp weld it into hedgehogs to prevent all armor- tracked, wheeled & hover- from moving through a hex without causing a place for infantry to hole up.  They can also before a battle prepare firing positions inside buildings- basically making a 'door' on the side not facing the enemy so they can walk into and out of a building without damage or PSRs.  Proper defensive positions have those for mechs & tanks, but you can do it informally if you have enough time IMO.

For bunkers & pillboxes, another thing to consider is giving them some shelter.  You want protected interlocking fields of fire, best example is this . . . pick a point you and a friend can agree on . . . have that person take 5 steps away in one direction, turn about and face that point.  You face 90 degrees from your friend, they should be looking at your left or right shoulder.  Take the same 5 steps away from the point, turn about and face the point.  Now consider your shoulder facing that point to be against a wall or mound of dirt . . . so you can both see the killing zone, which is the point but you can also see to the 'front' of your friend which has his LOS blocked by the wall/dirt.  Your friend can do the same for you . . . so not you are both protected from direct frontal fire and able to deal with something coming up on your buddy's blind zone.  This is a old trick, archers behind crenelations on castle walls get the same effect.

Fire is also a traditional static defense and attacking tool, the means differs in the execution.  For the defender it can create barriers, destroy supplies and wreck morale.  Properly placed inferno mines can surprise your attacker by putting fire where it is not expected, thus letting it fight for you cutting down your odds.  Is a Rhino tank that crawled its way into the middle of some light woods to get a sheltered firing position going to be able to run from a growing forest fire b/c some mech or BA triggered a Inferno fire?

Also, proper defensive perimeter planning includes noting where the deadzones are for your indirect fire weapons.  Where mechs (L2 cliffs), vehicles, BA or infantry will go to get out of LOS (and on MM I use DB so they can really hide) is a great place to put your pre-sited artillery hits.  Depending on how many you get, you do need them all . . . just demonstrate that you might have that spot for a auto-hit and instead the enemy forces will brave your fire rather than take 15/20/25 points of damage they cannot avoid.

So fluff your defenders as taking these actions- and here a engineering company comes in handy- and if you have time you can do things to the proper place to give your troops force multipliers.  My Chaos March operating mercs (for a bit longer, still '66 for them) have a platoon of engineers, a heavy tracked APC fitted out, a ConstructionMech, and ForestryMech (piloted by apprentices) and a strong emphasis on hands in some lances- especially fast lances.  Engineers should always IMO be equipped with Fluid Guns which are a very useful piece of support equipment . . . icy pavement on the outer ring road can make moving into a city dangerous, the trick can be done in warmer climates with the oil.  They can also spit inferno gel or coolant fluid, making them very useful for a defensive position especially if you equip them on the right vehicles to support mechs in firing positions . . . my Marauder 3D or 9M will be able to fire more often from its defensive position if it has a APC or heavy APC equipped with a fluid gun assigned to spray it with coolant during big attacks.

Final look-
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mbear

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #14 on: 31 July 2019, 08:23:25 »
Well damn.  I wish I had known about this like two months ago.  I am literally playing a small campaign right now that consists of an enemy pirate organization attacking a WoB held Capital city.  The biggest fortifications I am using are a Level II wall, some minefields, and two platoons of Autocannon-2 Field Guns :(

Here's an evil thought: Can C3/C3i be used in fortifications? If so that sniper tower with Light Gauss Rifles (or whatever) could use targeting data from truetanker's Painbox to really ruin someone's day.

And don't forget fun stuff like the Gun Trailers from TRO: 3145 Mercenaries. I'm pretty sure some of those have C3 systems, and I know some of them have Arrow and tube artillery. Attached to a J-27 they could (slowly) scoot around behind your defensive walls, adding their fire.

Edit: In How to block vehicles from passing through a road hex during a game? Weirdo suggested having a bridgelayer deploy a light bridge in a road hex, then destroying the bridge to create an instant rough terrain hex. And then I had a couple thoughts about impromptu roadblocks that I put in Fan Rules.
« Last Edit: 31 July 2019, 08:31:54 by mbear »
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Sartris

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #15 on: 31 July 2019, 08:25:35 »
c3 does not require LoS so you can do all kinds of evil things with it

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #16 on: 31 July 2019, 09:28:22 »
Here's an evil thought: Can C3/C3i be used in fortifications? If so that sniper tower with Light Gauss Rifles (or whatever) could use targeting data from truetanker's Painbox to really ruin someone's day.

And don't forget fun stuff like the Gun Trailers from TRO: 3145 Mercenaries. I'm pretty sure some of those have C3 systems, and I know some of them have Arrow and tube artillery. Attached to a J-27 they could (slowly) scoot around behind your defensive walls, adding their fire.

Edit: In How to block vehicles from passing through a road hex during a game? Weirdo suggested having a bridgelayer deploy a light bridge in a road hex, then destroying the bridge to create an instant rough terrain hex. And then I had a couple thoughts about impromptu roadblocks that I put in Fan Rules.

Pretty sure C3 in buildings is a "No."  I think I asked that on the rules forum at one point.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #17 on: 31 July 2019, 09:39:13 »
Pretty simple fix . . . C3i squad of Purifiers in a bunker, or a Beagle in a bunker with a door to scoot & reposition.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #18 on: 31 July 2019, 10:10:01 »
Having run an engineering unit I can do some suggestions . First terrain rubble six hexes deep range 15-21 from your LRM line which has a hill to hide behind .  I Do not recogmend trenches .

Beween 2-14 have perpared hull down postions 7 hexes apart for a hover tank with TAG to use . 7 hexes plus 3 to enter postion and go hull down . +3 for movement +2 for hull down plus turns .

Range 1 a level 2 hill  with a 6 meter tunnel through it so only combat vehicles are unimpeded .  level 1 hardend armored buliding w armor to hold Kanazuchi w Infanty field gun AC 10 with  precision rounds or an AC 10 ultra behind the same hill with the LRM launchers   . To move LRM carriers or Trailers into it . Command mines on roads though the rubble . Pre plotted Artillary 2 hexes past road though rubble on either side . If the world is cold enough Ice Down the rubble so unless the opposition walks at half walking speed or they get a penalty to pilot roll +5 full walking speed or +7 at a run I think been a while since I had a place cold enough (rare) .  Underground tunnels to evacuate to mined to cave in behind retreating defenders . The LRM have some semi Guided rounds that hit better the TAGed target since almost everything is on board you know if the TAG hits before firing guided ammo or not .  I play BV games. I use 2 Trailers hitched to each other in one hex and a Tractor hitched to one of those trailers in front of a tunnel on a road . One movement phase gets both tractor and trailers into a tunnel .
« Last Edit: 31 July 2019, 18:33:49 by Col Toda »

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #19 on: 31 July 2019, 12:58:59 »
Pretty sure you could mount a C3 remote sensor launcher in a building.  Should provide more flexibility than a fixed unit, even if they have a limited duration.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #20 on: 31 July 2019, 14:41:28 »
C3 remote launcher requires line of site for most or all the units in the network to work well . The best fortification is rubble and hills with the LRM firing indirect . Other than hard to hit hovertanks and stealth battle armor spotting for the LRM delevery vehicle . TAG and Semi Guided ammo does not expose most of your heavy hitting units .  C3 is better for half to 1/2 is  highly manuveable range finder . C3 Remote as a dedicated channel as opposed to replacing a lost existing channel is somewhat more expensive . As a C 3 company Has 4 Masters 8 networked slaves and each lance with a dedicated 4th channel .

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #21 on: 31 July 2019, 16:03:58 »
Eh . . . if I am spotting, I want my infantry squads under Hidden Unit rules since they can spot w/o giving away their location.  The problem with that is compared to a open field battle, a proper defensive perimeter is going to have a cleared zone that would be . . . 25 hexes, or 750 meters . . . so very little could find shelter in range of your defenses.  You at least want 15 hexes cleared between any cover and a defensive point simple b/c that means anything with a AC/10, LL, RAC/5, Snub, Large X Pulse will all be out of range and for most other weapons it will be long range (Note!  If you are attacking, beware of that nice little cluster of trees that is about 90 meters wide inside 15 hexes . . . its bait for a artillery barrage- Thumper, Sniper and Inferno A4 will wreck whatever you think is 'safe' there . . . ).

So the best infantry hidden spotters are outside your perimeter . . . which is not a bad thing if you are going to get beseiged.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #22 on: 31 July 2019, 18:44:30 »
The patch of trees to lure to a pre plotted artlliary zone is good in a quick assault . But a multlple assault seige your own artillary will quickly reduce the patch of trees to rubble anyway . On board Arrow IV or Tube w Copperhead rounds in an environment with hover tanks with TAG is shorter and more brutal . If the attacks is a one or two engagement you may be better served with Colt Ward"s suggestion .

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #23 on: 31 July 2019, 20:02:57 »
Get some cheap (disposable) VTOLS, some wheeled/hover vehicles, and a mess of infantry.

Send the VTOLs to attack the guy's repair/supply base, crash-landing the VTOLs close enough to deploy the troops.  The troops then use their SRMs or other flame weapons to set lots of stuff on fire (i.. food, fuel, and ammo).  The vehicles are there to pick up the infantry after they have had their fun.

Let's see how long that city attack lasts when they have no supplies/repair base to fall back on.

Or use this to steal a Dropship from the attacker

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #24 on: 03 August 2019, 20:34:37 »
When people say "always artillery", it should be "always include Long Tom artillery".  The last thing you want is the enemy to be able to lob Long Toms at you without being able to respond.  Range is everything when it comes to an artillery duel.

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #25 on: 03 August 2019, 23:43:05 »
That’s why the MAC book has the “Archery Artillery Bunker,” packing a whopping seven Long Toms.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #26 on: 03 August 2019, 23:52:25 »
When people say "always artillery", it should be "always include Long Tom artillery".  The last thing you want is the enemy to be able to lob Long Toms at you without being able to respond.  Range is everything when it comes to an artillery duel.

Not exactly . . . for general purposes, the rule will do though . . . while you might want some Long Tom, enough resources devoted to it makes Thumper, Sniper and A4 viable choices too- its all about the plan.
Colt Ward
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #27 on: 08 August 2019, 08:08:26 »
Not a fan of off board Artillary too much chance of eating friendly fire . With movement phase followed by TAG phase then weapon phase ; on board permits you to choose homing or standard during weapon phase . Yes off board hits before weapons phase but is far less precise and wasteful.

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #28 on: 08 August 2019, 08:46:41 »
Not a fan of off board Artillary too much chance of eating friendly fire . With movement phase followed by TAG phase then weapon phase ; on board permits you to choose homing or standard during weapon phase . Yes off board hits before weapons phase but is far less precise and wasteful.
The chance of blue-on-blue creates a confluence that can be exploited by either side. Either you trust in Fortuna, and drop the arty in close to your forces and push the other fellow around, or you play it safe and stay out of scatter range of the your target hexes. Then the opponent has to ask themselves, "Do I want to try running through the rain drops?"  In which case, an aggressive opponent can seize the initiative, lower case 'i,' not capital 'I,' and sprint across the field.

On the other hand, there are safe spots in the artillery scatter pattern. Look at TO pg 183, for the radius diagram.  It's not the scatter diagram but it's good enough.  Say Hex X is the target, as long as you aren't firing cruise missiles or HE Long Toms, hexes 0908, 1308, 0902, and 1302 are safe from friendly fire. As you expand to a 6 hex radius, these safe zones widen out. Even if are using HE Long Tom, by the time you are 2 hexes away, it's only 5 damage.   So it's possible to time you movement and your firings so that your units are either totally safe, or not in danger of taking an Arrow IV to the back of the head.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #29 on: 08 August 2019, 09:08:29 »
On the other hand, there are safe spots in the artillery scatter pattern. Look at TO pg 183, for the radius diagram.  It's not the scatter diagram but it's good enough.  Say Hex X is the target, as long as you aren't firing cruise missiles or HE Long Toms, hexes 0908, 1308, 0902, and 1302 are safe from friendly fire. As you expand to a 6 hex radius, these safe zones widen out. Even if are using HE Long Tom, by the time you are 2 hexes away, it's only 5 damage.   So it's possible to time you movement and your firings so that your units are either totally safe, or not in danger of taking an Arrow IV to the back of the head.

Which is why I and other artillery folks have talked about fire patterns & FDCs which are HQs for their fire.  Its also why density of fires is part of proper artillery doctrine.  Give me a platoon of veteran gunners and there will not be easy holes in a 8 hex triangle, with more tubes I can expand the blocked area.
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grimlock1

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #30 on: 08 August 2019, 14:06:14 »
Which is why I and other artillery folks have talked about fire patterns & FDCs which are HQs for their fire.  Its also why density of fires is part of proper artillery doctrine.  Give me a platoon of veteran gunners and there will not be easy holes in a 8 hex triangle, with more tubes I can expand the blocked area.
You're right about needing multiple batteries. Battletech always seems to err low on the side of scale.  1 or 2 tubes of anything just isn't decisive.

But I was actually arguing from the opposite side.  You can exploit the safe zones in your own artillery scatter to operate closer to the beaten zone.
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Tangoforone

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #31 on: 08 August 2019, 14:23:37 »
I made that error in my force composition.  I have a couple Marksman Tanks (literally two) and I should probably have tripled that for it to be effective. 

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #32 on: 08 August 2019, 14:29:30 »
You're right about needing multiple batteries. Battletech always seems to err low on the side of scale.  1 or 2 tubes of anything just isn't decisive.

But I was actually arguing from the opposite side.  You can exploit the safe zones in your own artillery scatter to operate closer to the beaten zone.

Well, its more that I would like a supporting veh- like a APC- with 4t or 6t of ComGear to give multiple tubes the ability to 'pattern' fire rather than the +1 Init or whatever.  So I have 3 Thumpers, I put them in a triangle with a single hex from each impact point so the center hex gets splash damage from all 3 shots.  The center hex would be the center of fire . . . and since the FDC makes sure all the guns are at the same azimuth, bearing & charge when they fire.  Roll once for TH, roll once for scatter, and that is where the rounds come down together.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #33 on: 08 August 2019, 17:05:04 »
I'm thinking that six being the right number of tubes in the real world just might be reflected in the rules (probably by accident, but possibly on purpose).

grimlock1

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #34 on: 09 August 2019, 09:06:17 »
Well, its more that I would like a supporting veh- like a APC- with 4t or 6t of ComGear to give multiple tubes the ability to 'pattern' fire rather than the +1 Init or whatever.  So I have 3 Thumpers, I put them in a triangle with a single hex from each impact point so the center hex gets splash damage from all 3 shots.  The center hex would be the center of fire . . . and since the FDC makes sure all the guns are at the same azimuth, bearing & charge when they fire.  Roll once for TH, roll once for scatter, and that is where the rounds come down together.
You can do that?  Cool!
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dgorsman

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #35 on: 09 August 2019, 10:06:28 »
I don't think that's in Tac Ops, last I saw something like that was in the Tactical Handbook. It has a few artillery goodies like walking fire.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #36 on: 09 August 2019, 10:38:14 »
No, no such rule exists afaik.  What I said was it SHOULD like the init bonus.  Its a whole unit used to coordinate fire, which is what it does and has been a principle for the last couple hundred years (depending on force).  Its gone from making sure the guns all have the same T&E (traverse & elevation) & powder weight to in modern times knowing what the condition of the air you are firing through is so the proper settings can be selected.

And 6 'guns' is not the real world 'right number' . . . a whole long string of variables exist for what is 'right' and in fact the trend since . . . the 70s?  has been to decrease the number of guns in firing platoons & batteries.
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #37 on: 09 August 2019, 16:16:38 »
Anybody have a Charlie 6 spotlight handy to shine into the sky?  ::)

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #38 on: 09 August 2019, 22:19:05 »
Well, we were both artillery . . . and I can tell you its happened- my unit was 8 inchers- not sure how many tubes they had per platoon but they changed out to MLRS before the Gulf War and they had 3x3 for that . . . it was determined 9 'guns' was overkill, after the Gulf War they dropped to 2x3.
Colt Ward
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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #39 on: 10 August 2019, 04:39:20 »
So... 2x3 = 6?  ???

Cannonshop

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #40 on: 11 August 2019, 22:40:25 »
The chance of blue-on-blue creates a confluence that can be exploited by either side. Either you trust in Fortuna, and drop the arty in close to your forces and push the other fellow around, or you play it safe and stay out of scatter range of the your target hexes. Then the opponent has to ask themselves, "Do I want to try running through the rain drops?"  In which case, an aggressive opponent can seize the initiative, lower case 'i,' not capital 'I,' and sprint across the field.

On the other hand, there are safe spots in the artillery scatter pattern. Look at TO pg 183, for the radius diagram.  It's not the scatter diagram but it's good enough.  Say Hex X is the target, as long as you aren't firing cruise missiles or HE Long Toms, hexes 0908, 1308, 0902, and 1302 are safe from friendly fire. As you expand to a 6 hex radius, these safe zones widen out. Even if are using HE Long Tom, by the time you are 2 hexes away, it's only 5 damage.   So it's possible to time you movement and your firings so that your units are either totally safe, or not in danger of taking an Arrow IV to the back of the head.

With TacOps scatter rules, 'close' is "on the same map".  (heh, you can even theoretically land your artillery behind the artillery guns firing it-at range!)  BMR rules had about a 12 hex radius of 'danger close', Tacops' stacking scatter rolls makes the whole map useless to your own side if you're bombarding it *(You're actually MORE likely to hit your own forces, and also far more likely to hit something of zero value, than the enemy, or the enemy's positions.)



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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #41 on: 12 August 2019, 12:21:22 »
Cannonshop, that has not been the case for artillery scatter for years, it got errata'd
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Col Toda

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #42 on: 22 August 2019, 18:24:58 »
6 Artillary seams decisive at that number about 10 percent of misses accidentally hit a target on scatter ..
 Put a recon camera on every unit you can afford to . That might provide a spotter w/o eating targeting shooting penaties . Worth looking up as it is available in All Eras .

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #43 on: 22 August 2019, 23:02:46 »
c3 does not require LoS so you can do all kinds of evil things with it

That was errated years ago.  C3 systems do require LOS now.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #44 on: 23 August 2019, 00:28:26 »
It got changed back
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #45 on: 23 August 2019, 00:36:42 »
When did that happen?
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Colt Ward

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Re: Fortifications, trenches and other static defenses
« Reply #46 on: 23 August 2019, 01:29:46 »
Was it with BMM?  I know it raised a lot of questions . . . and hey!  The Beagle (C3i) become valuable again!
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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