Author Topic: Ship Design Questions (Read 386 times)

Primus203 · « **on:** 04 April 2024, 01:01:15 »

So I just found out that having people in quarters is ten times more efficient for supplies usage. For someone in steerage this means that around day one hundred twelve you break even on supplies. After that it becomes far more efficient to have quarters. As the warship I'm planning is to have a minimum endurance of 500 days without resupply quarters make sense.

Meaning the first question is do different quarters have a benefit? Is there a reason other than lore not to stick everyone in steerage.

Second how do I calculate my need for spare parts? As far as I understand because rules were written at different times the warship, dropships, small craft, fighters, mechs VTOL, and battle armor are all calculated differently.

How much fuel do I use in travel between star systems? The warship is a very long range\duration raider.

Can the majority of my parts and resource needs be met by raiding?

How significantly does combat increase parts needs I'm planning a minimum of 50 days capability for ground deployments in combat conditions.

Are there any other ship design considerations that can lower resource usage?

Do pilots of vehicles such as mechs or fighters need quarters or are they magically considered part of the bays?

For a 50k ton dropship is 794 armor per face adequate? Would reducing it to just over 600 per face be safe or is it better to stay with the higher amount the benefit of the just over 600 is about 1900 more tons of cargo capacity.

AlphaMirage · « **Reply #1 on:** 04 April 2024, 04:30:16 »

No mechanical benefit for different quarters.

There is a formula in Campaign Ops for spares (0.1% of total mass for pretty much everything 'tactical' plus 1/4 total ammo per unit, plus 4x Fighter Fuel Capacity) and it's not because they were developed at different times.

Fuel Consumption per day is in Strategic Ops I believe (monthly use is 15 burn days per Campaign Ops for all craft larger than a fighter).

You probably can't raid for Warship parts but as far as Campaign Ops is concerned all Aerospace parts are the same.

Combat has no impact on parts but you should pack more armor and ammo as well as spare airframes in cargo.

Mech, ASF, and Small Craft bays all incorporate some quarters (at least 2) into their mass although SC are indirect since the SC needs quarters already built in.

Depends what your threat profile looks like

Cannonshop · « **Reply #2 on:** 04 April 2024, 07:51:56 »

Quote from: Primus203 on 04 April 2024, 01:01:15

So I just found out that having people in quarters is ten times more efficient for supplies usage. For someone in steerage this means that around day one hundred twelve you break even on supplies. After that it becomes far more efficient to have quarters. As the warship I'm planning is to have a minimum endurance of 500 days without resupply quarters make sense.

Meaning the first question is do different quarters have a benefit? Is there a reason other than lore not to stick everyone in steerage.

Second how do I calculate my need for spare parts? As far as I understand because rules were written at different times the warship, dropships, small craft, fighters, mechs VTOL, and battle armor are all calculated differently.

How much fuel do I use in travel between star systems? The warship is a very long range\duration raider.

Can the majority of my parts and resource needs be met by raiding?

How significantly does combat increase parts needs I'm planning a minimum of 50 days capability for ground deployments in combat conditions.

Are there any other ship design considerations that can lower resource usage?

Do pilots of vehicles such as mechs or fighters need quarters or are they magically considered part of the bays?

For a 50k ton dropship is 794 armor per face adequate? Would reducing it to just over 600 per face be safe or is it better to stay with the higher amount the benefit of the just over 600 is about 1900 more tons of cargo capacity.

Much of the game rules are abstracted and simplified-there's no factoring for, for example, crew fatigue. Everyone is ALWAYS fresh as a daisy even when they've been pulling multiple gees for weeks while never actually having time to sleep.

The use of full quarters now? is not something that works in the game rules, but it IS something that applies in reality-sufficient quarters and sufficient crew to keep the ship manned while still allowing eight hours of sleep,and up to four hours of non-duty activity positively impacts both morale, and readiness in the real world.

There are studies fo this, and it's why newer ships in the real world are often given more space for non-combat assets like beds, better chow, and recreational facilities. Your crew ends up being healthier and more alert, readier to take action, than crews crammed into bays like sardines on a hot-bunking cycle with no time off.

AlphaMirage · « **Reply #3 on:** 04 April 2024, 08:27:23 »

Agreed with Cannonshop, also its really not that large of an expense tonnage wise on a larger vessel unless you intend to carry a lot of passengers like some kind of troop ship. Economically the cut off is 20-40 days before the c-bill and/or tonnage expense of maintaining infantry bay level quarters vs dedicated steerage quarters reverses dramatically.

monbvol · « **Reply #4 on:** 04 April 2024, 10:10:28 »

Also to make a distinction about fuel, the FTL method Battletech uses does not directly consume fuel. It is most frequently charged off a jump sail. If the sail is damaged or you need to be in a hurry then you can burn fuel to charge the FTL.

There is also the Lithium Fusion Battery that can be used. But this also needs to be charged back up after use, separately.

Daryk · « **Reply #5 on:** 04 April 2024, 19:09:19 »

The pre-"Taurians exist" figure was 90 days between Bay and Quarters. I think the 112 day one is after that change. I proposed a house rule for "Field Kitchens" reducing consumption rates here: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79138.0.html

Primus203 · « **Reply #6 on:** 05 April 2024, 00:55:23 »

Got another pair of questions as I continue my design the battle armor bay shows 6 personnel are these the battlearmor pilots or are these technicians and the battlearmor pilots are counted separately?

Second I was told I need a yardship for repairs. Does this also include something as simple as replacing ship armor? That is something which decides if I need more spare armor for the ships.

Daryk · « **Reply #7 on:** 05 April 2024, 03:30:09 »

The table on page 239 of Tech Manual also lists the number of troopers. Any others are techs.

As far as armor repair, I see a requirement for a shipyard if you're doing customization work, but not simple repairs like that.

truetanker · « **Reply #8 on:** 05 April 2024, 12:25:21 »

Yard ship is good for Generic Repairs away from a dedicated Slip.

Both allow a quick fix, or in case of major damages, where you can't get to a Slip, a Yard Ship will make basic repairs to your KF drive, so you can get to a Slip and save the "Yard" time off.

Think of the Ship a tow-truck and your Slip as the garage. Your Car (WS) has engine troubles.

You patch the Drive and hull for a temporary jump, then complete the service.

If your being clandestine, then having your Yardship sneak in to quietly repair as much as possible. But generally, fixing that KF Drive is top priority first. Everything else is secondary.

Hope that helps.

TT

Primus203 · « **Reply #9 on:** 06 April 2024, 15:24:46 »

How do you guys figure out how much replacement equipment you need? At current I have 40 deployable light mechs with 2 extra spare mechs per deployable as light is more prone to being taken out. 2 spare reactors per light as XL is more likely to be damaged. One full spare gun allotment per light including those in storage.

Medium mech 40 deployable 40 spares heavy mech 20 deployable 20 spares. One spare reactor per unit one full spare gun allotment.

Mechs have a fifty percent spare pilot allotment.

VTOL 30 deployable of three combined types. As they are very vulnerable to damage four spare units for each deployed. One spare reactor for each. Double the ammount of deployed pilots due to risk of pilot death being higher. Spare gun set for each.

Fighters and bombers fifty percent spare frames. Full spare gun set per frame. Extra reactor per frame.

Fifty full reloads for anything using ammo. Aerospace and VTOL use heavy ferro fibrous 2000 tons allotted. Mechs use standard 1200 tons allotted.

AlphaMirage · « **Reply #10 on:** 06 April 2024, 15:57:11 »

I wouldn't take replacement engines, probably provide a 1/3 replacement machine per unit (Basically a spare Lance per Company) for most designs, I'd actually lean more on medium/heavy replacement as Lights while weak should be able to disengage from threats when used appropriately (not during the SWs). Doing engine swaps or more complex repairs is probably something you'd want to do at a depot maintenance facility not in a repair bay if not send them back to the factory. Any damaged machines put in storage can be used for spare actuators and other such materials. I think the 1/2 extra machines for aerospace is probably pretty smart as long as you can recover your pilots, I would not bring extra engines for them however.

50x Ammo will give you 200 months of peacetime endurance so that's actually probably to much as you're more likely to lose some machines during active fighting. That's probably plenty for armor though, its not like it goes bad.

Daryk · « **Reply #11 on:** 06 April 2024, 17:01:06 »

You're carrying enough spares to be a raid target in and of yourself!

truetanker · « **Reply #12 on:** 06 April 2024, 17:43:43 »

I'd find commonality items in the Unit per say, and go as AlphaMirage said, 1/3rd that in replacements. At best your using 1 ton of MG ammo total per Campaign, I don't know if I ever used all that in a setting or not? As that's a big BOOM if hit. Normally, I'd assign like Fifteen or so salvo shots each gun, the rest left behind. Same with SRM/LRMs, I mean it's 100/120 Missiles per ton, a 6 Pack has only 90 capacities... (Which is weird, because capturing said Ammo and using it in a 4 or even 2 Pack...

)

To be honest, depending on the Cargo, it'll mostly be Autocannon and Missile ammos than replacement Energy weapons. Armor can be "salvaged/scrounged" in a campaign, Heavy Commercial is Standard Plate equivalent. Bringing FF is kind of wasted, but if you have the room for it...

Taking extra equipment like replacement Cockpits, might help, but only as a basic replacement. I've only ever ended up using that once, which surprised my other campaign players. (It shocked the GM, when I showed her my "replacement" parts and Ammo sheet in the beginning, that she approved, photocopied and returned back to me.) She was like, you don't have that... yes I do, look at your records... "Well I be damn, you did have it. Well played TT, well played. The rest of you are down a few or so mechs, TT has all his up and running...

So yeah, small things in the same weight range can help. Or a big one like a Cockpit can save a mech from going out, if you've got an extra Pilot on hand that is.

TT

idea weenie · « **Reply #13 on:** 06 April 2024, 19:52:13 »

Quote from: Primus203 on 06 April 2024, 15:24:46

How do you guys figure out how much replacement equipment you need? At current I have 40 deployable light mechs with 2 extra spare mechs per deployable as light is more prone to being taken out. 2 spare reactors per light as XL is more likely to be damaged. One full spare gun allotment per light including those in storage.

Medium mech 40 deployable 40 spares heavy mech 20 deployable 20 spares. One spare reactor per unit one full spare gun allotment.

Mechs have a fifty percent spare pilot allotment.

VTOL 30 deployable of three combined types. As they are very vulnerable to damage four spare units for each deployed. One spare reactor for each. Double the ammount of deployed pilots due to risk of pilot death being higher. Spare gun set for each.

Fighters and bombers fifty percent spare frames. Full spare gun set per frame. Extra reactor per frame.

Fifty full reloads for anything using ammo. Aerospace and VTOL use heavy ferro fibrous 2000 tons allotted. Mechs use standard 1200 tons allotted.

As listed, this would be a major strategic reserve, rather than anything I'd use near combat. A deep-space base with Dropships or cargo Warships would be how the above would be deployed. Multiple fronts might use it to resupply for their smaller offensives.

My changes if you want to take this force near combat:
Mechs can be put together from parts very easily. I'd drop it to maybe 1 spare Mech per 4. Also double-check the Strategic Operations rules for engine repairs..

Spare Pilot allotment could be useful, as Pilot injuries can take time to heal. Life is cheap, Mechs/ASF are expensive. While those Mechwarriors are not in a Mech fighting, have them use Administration or similar skills to keep your unit operating. If they don't have those extra skills, train them.

VTOLs do get shot down easily, so hopefully you use careful deployment to minimize the chances of anyone landing a hit (i.e. 9/14 fast-mover scouts with maybe an AC/2 rather than 6/9 snipers with Gauss Rifles). Still, 4:1 spares:ready could be much too high.

Every cargo ton used for spare units is cargo tonnage not being used to keep the main force attacking. For the VTOLS, it sounds like you want a total of 150 VTOLs and 60 sets of pilots. Would you prefer to have 60 active VTOLs instead?

Which is better:
- fifty percent spare air frames
- 10% spare air frames and the extra tonnage for more active air frames/ammunition/fuel/armor.

I will admit, carrying the spares as cargo does save a lot of tonnage vs using Bays. An active 15-ton VTOL takes up a 50-ton Light Vehicle Bay, but you are instead storing 4 of them as cargo takes up 60 tons. An active Light Mech can take up an entire 150-ton Mech Bay, but storing 4 of them in cargo tonnage only takes up 80-100 tons (assuming 20-25 tons per Light Mech).

So you might have several Light and Medium 'Mechs in cargo storage, but the Heavy and Assault 'Mechs will likely be kept stored in their 'Mech Bays.

Should there be an ultra-light Vehicle Bay that only masses 20 tons, so a single Ferret or Crow VTOL doesn't take up a full 50 tons while being prepped for combat?

Similarly, the Clans would have an Omni-Bay. Designing it would just be declaring how many Vehicle Bays it has and allocating total tonnage. So a 4 & 200 setup could handle up to 4 vehicle or 200 tons, whichever limit is reached first. One day it could be working on a pair of Mantis VTOLS and a pair of Schrek tanks, the next day it is working on four Strikers.

Primus203 · « **Reply #14 on:** 06 April 2024, 22:15:12 »

So first things first I know the number of units and spares may seem high. However first the group Im with thinks that the numbers of units are far to low in universe so this is bulked up. Second the warship in question is an extreme duration behind the lines raider with 8 years of parts for maintenance and four years of crew consumables.

Blitz Raider Battlecruiser- a 1.2 million ton ship that trades firepower and armor for speed. Anything that can kill it hopefully cant match its 5\8 speed. Expensive with half of the cost coming from the lithium fusion battery probably only one ship. Has max dropships for long duration crusing.