Author Topic: Clan phenotypes  (Read 5375 times)

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #30 on: 28 February 2020, 12:32:52 »
I wonder how Elementals were created. Now, it could be that the Horses had been breeding bigger humans for a while until they eventually just got that big, but Elementals are exceptionally big and strong

Early in the Golden Century, the Horses put up their “infantry breeding protocols” against the Wolves new battle armor when trialing for the latter.  Sounds like selective breeding/eugenics, not genetic engineering.

And you can get dramatic variation from selective breeding, e.g., Great Danes and Chihuahuas from wolf stock.  It’s shocking how large livestock and domesticated plant fruits are compared to their natural forbears.  And it doesn’t take long — in an experiment on domestication, Russian researchers bred high adrenaline levels out of wild foxes and other dog-like characteristics such as spotted coats and floppy ears showed up in a handful of generations.  None of this was done with genetic engineering, just selective breeding.

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which makes me wonder if the Horses did do some genetic engineering beyond the usual Clan scope (correcting some flaws but that's it)

A sourcebook or two indicates that genetic diseases have been removed from the trueborn bloodlines, which probably would require DNA snipping.  But that appears to be the extent of official Clan trueborn genetic engineering.

A defining feature of the Society and the Genecaste is that they cross the genetic engineering thresholds that the Clans themselves do not cross.
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Empyrus

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #31 on: 28 February 2020, 13:06:13 »
Early in the Golden Century, the Horses put up their “infantry breeding protocols” against the Wolves new battle armor when trialing for the latter.  Sounds like selective breeding/eugenics, not genetic engineering.
I got an impression it was a fast development or something special, hence i'm wondering. Though it seems logical the Horses had been working on infantry genotype for a long time already. But only about 50 years since the beginning of Clan eugenics seems too short time to create humans who are consistently large. The issue is the speed of this process. Human generations are relatively long, and even with with Clan Iron Wombs 50 years seems too short.
Then again, it could be that early bred infantry who'd become Elementals weren't as big and strong as their descendants circa Clan Invasion. Enhanced to be sure, better suited for battle armor, but not yet "perfected". Adding 200 years of more development and humans as big as Elementals make sense.

marauder648

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #32 on: 28 February 2020, 13:09:04 »
I got an impression it was a fast development or something special, hence i'm wondering. Though it seems logical the Horses had been working on infantry genotype for a long time already. But only about 50 years since the beginning of Clan eugenics seems too short time to create humans who are consistently large. The issue is the speed of this process. Human generations are relatively long, and even with with Clan Iron Wombs 50 years seems too short.
Then again, it could be that early bred infantry who'd become Elementals weren't as big and strong as their descendants circa Clan Invasion. Enhanced to be sure, better suited for battle armor, but not yet "perfected". Adding 200 years of more development and humans as big as Elementals make sense.

That makes sense, we'd probably see both the Elemental and the suits themselves grow as they polished and refinded the infantry wearing them until they got the result they wanted. The more extreme cases with the aerospace pilots and how very different they are probably took far longer.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #33 on: 28 February 2020, 15:17:34 »

But only about 50 years since the beginning of Clan eugenics seems too short time to create humans who are consistently large. The issue is the speed of this process. Human generations are relatively long, and even with with Clan Iron Wombs 50 years seems too short.

Probably not, for few reasons:

One, once you start selective breeding, you get results in the first generation.  I’m 6’1”, I married a 5’10” woman, and there are uncles and grandfathers ranging from 6’3” to 6’6” in the family background.  Not surprisingly, our oldest boy is already 5’3” at 10-years old and the tallest in his class and basketball team.  Similarly, our youngest is also the tallest in his kindergarten.  Both are 99th percentile for height according to their pediatrician.  We obviously weren’t selectively bred, but if the Horses wanted tall infantry, they would have done what we did by accident, pair tall gene-mothers with tall gene-fathers from the get-go.  Same could be done for muscle mass, running speed, endurance, reflexes, or whatever characteristic the Horses wanted.

Two, humans may be relatively long-lived, but we can and do reproduce early.  We’re sexually mature by our teens (~15 years) and before modern, industrial society, it was typical to have children before our 20s.  50 years is enough time to selectively breed 2-3 generations.  If my sons marry, say, 6’ tall women, then my grandchildren will be even taller than my already tallest-in-class, 99th-percentile for height boys.  With the right selective breeding, just a few generations can get into a ~99.9th-percentile/~1-in-a-1000 specimen of a population for a given characteristic.

Three, using iron wombs, the Clans shortened their trueborn generations to 5 years.  So every 5 years, the Horses could be measuring the characteristics of the prior generations (size, muscle mass, etc.) and changing up their “infantry breeding protocols” accordingly.  They didn’t have to wait for those trueborns to fully mature and perform on the battlefield to make these measurements and start this feedback loop.  If the sibkids from gene-mother A and gene-father B didn’t have the expected height or muscle mass at age 5, then the Horse scientists could rethink who they pair with gene-mother A and gene-father B in the next generation.  In 50 years, the Horse scientists could have completed this feedback loop 10 times, which is way more than enough breeding cycles to produce ungodly outliers compared to the regular population.  (New dog breeds are created in as little as a few or handful of generations.)

It’s important to remember that selective breeding is genetic engineering.  It’s just not done in a lab, as precise, or as instantaneous.  But it can be just as powerful and in a surprisingly short number of generations.  The vast majority of us today don’t raise crops or livestock or breed dogs, so we don’t live with and exercise selective breeding like our ancestors did every growing season or year.  But it is exactly selective breeding that enabled our species’ shift from hunter-gatherer to agrarian societies.  It’s as powerful and fundamental tool as fire or the wheel, maybe more so.

It’s never really been applied to our own species, which is probably a good thing.  But given how powerful this tool has been when applied to other species, we shouldn’t underestimate how radically and swiftly it could reshape a human population like the Clans.

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Then again, it could be that early bred infantry who'd become Elementals weren't as big and strong as their descendants circa Clan Invasion. Enhanced to be sure, better suited for battle armor, but not yet "perfected". Adding 200 years of more development and humans as big as Elementals make sense.

This is also a good point. Even if their stats are treated the same for game purposes, the Elementals of Operation Revival are almost certainly not the Elementals of the early Golden Century.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Empyrus

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #34 on: 28 February 2020, 15:27:21 »
Right, i kept thinking in rigid at generations of at least 15 years, not to mention thinking that all generations happen at the same time. Completely overlooked that the Clans produce new sibkos quickly.

Makes me wonder what the Clans could do if they'd apply stricter breeding to non-Warrior castes. Super-scientists?

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #35 on: 28 February 2020, 16:33:45 »
Makes me wonder what the Clans could do if they'd apply stricter breeding to non-Warrior castes. Super-scientists?

Intelligence, especially as applied to a complex human construct like a profession, is a much trickier thing and way harder to measure and predict.

Raw characteristics like height and muscle mass are very straightforward to measure and predict.  If you want tall and muscular specimens, it’s easy to identify the tall and muscular forbears that are mostly likely to produce such specimens.

Somewhat harder to measure and more complex to predict are performed athletic characteristics, like running speed, endurance, or reflexes.  But selective breeding still works here.  We breed greyhounds to run fast, sled dogs to run long, terriers to hunt rodents in tunnels, collies to herd livestock, etc.

The corollary in the human realm might be professional sports.  And not surprisingly, parents in professional sports often have children that also make their way into the same professional sport.  Just look at this list of second-generation NBA players, for example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_second-generation_National_Basketball_Association_players

Some of that is no doubt due to these NBA dads passing on their knowledge and skills to their sons.  But a lot or maybe most of it is also due to these NBA dads passing along their athletic gifts genetically.

We also have measures of intelligence, like IQ tests and SATs.  But as any critic of those tests will tell you, they are not predictive of success in school or professional life.  They measure potential, but not aptitude, which involves a lot of other, even more slippery things, like interest in a subject, willpower to put in the time necessary to master a subject, ability to work with others, etc.  Put another way, just because you have Einstein’s IQ, doesn’t mean that you have what it takes to revolutionize our understanding of physics.

And I think we see that this limitation regarding selective breeding for complex intelligent behaviors still applies to the Clans.  Some simple nervous system characteristics — like mechwarrior reflexes or pilot sight — are bred into trueborns.  But complex products of intelligence — tactical awareness, strategic genius, etc. — are not.  Even among Clan trueborns, an Ulric Kerensky is just as rare as a Hanse Davion is among Spheroid freeborns.

If the Clans could measure, predict, and breed hundreds of Ulric Kerenskies, they would.  But they don’t, which implies they can’t, which probably also means that they couldn’t measure, predict, and breed hundreds of Einsteins, Darwins, and Newtons either, even if they wanted to.

We now know that the best indicators of success in college and life are grades in school, not SATs and IQ tests.  The equivalent for Clan sibkin would be simulations and unit exercises.  Your next Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels will probably be found among the sibkin who perform the best on the simulators or lead the best in unit exercises, not necessarily among the bloodlines of the prior Galaxy Commanders and Star Colonels.

And I think that’s why the Clan training regimens and codexes are as important in the BT canon as the breeding programs.  Whether a military commander or research scientist, human behavior involving complex brain functions is just not as genetically determined as physical performance.

My 2 Kerenskies... FWIW.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Talen5000

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #36 on: 28 February 2020, 17:14:37 »
I wonder how Elementals were created. Now, it could be that the Horses had been breeding bigger humans for a while until they eventually just got that big, but Elementals are exceptionally big and strong, which makes me wonder if the Horses did do some genetic engineering beyond the usual Clan scope (correcting some flaws but that's it)

It's a bit of both

The Clans prefer natural selection...it's slower, but warriors get a chance to prove the genes in real life...but they aren't above giving nature a helping hand. It usually isn't their first choice though.

At least as far as warriors are concerned.

There are a couple of references to civilians getting modified for hostile environments. Genetic engineering, like AI and cyberware, appears to be shunned by most in the Sphere but the Clans don't share such feelings.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #37 on: 28 February 2020, 17:38:37 »
It's a bit of both

The Clans prefer natural selection...it's slower, but warriors get a chance to prove the genes in real life...but they aren't above giving nature a helping hand. It usually isn't their first choice though.

At least as far as warriors are concerned.

There are a couple of references to civilians getting modified for hostile environments. Genetic engineering, like AI and cyberware, appears to be shunned by most in the Sphere but the Clans don't share such feelings.

Outside of the Society and Genecaste, I’ve seen no evidence of genetic engineering beyond controlling inherited diseases by the Clans in the canon, either for the trueborn or among the freeborn warriors and castes.  Can you point to reference?  Thx.
« Last Edit: 28 February 2020, 17:42:07 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

grimlock1

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #38 on: 02 March 2020, 12:27:21 »
I'm remembering Carew making a comment to Phalen about a particular Bloodname having a bad gene, specifically they gamble too much. Wondering how much of that was a joke, how much was cultural and how much may have been legit? Some studies claim to have isolated genes linked to compulsive and/or risk-taking behavior.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #39 on: 06 March 2020, 11:49:02 »
That makes sense, we'd probably see both the Elemental and the suits themselves grow as they polished and refinded the infantry wearing them until they got the result they wanted. The more extreme cases with the aerospace pilots and how very different they are probably took far longer.

Talk to livestock breeders- 20% genetics, 80% environment is a common saying . . . so yeah, Elementals are bred from larger people and perhaps a little bit of gene editing goes into the mix.  Remember they were also already experimenting with MW genes, perhaps the Horses were improving the physical attributes of their mechwarriors so they were easier to drop into the infantry roles?

Anyway, they have the right genes . . . THEN you start talking about they get the best food, dedicated exercise periods to improve muscle mass, and I imagine they would take multiple enhancement treatments.  Most importantly they keep records . . . genetic test sample X has 10% less lower body strength, which means its going to end up cut from the next series of tests unless something happens to make it stand out.  They are also starting off with the best examples from the previous period of the Clan's genetic development.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #40 on: 06 March 2020, 13:57:25 »
Early in the Golden Century, the Horses put up their “infantry breeding protocols” against the Wolves new battle armor when trialing for the latter.  Sounds like selective breeding/eugenics, not genetic engineering.

As someone with tangential experience with GM lab-work, there's also a strong possibility that the breeding protocol includes the "care and feeding" for the new embryos. When we got new bacteria samples, we also got the instructions on growth media, storage, sub-culturing, and reproductive tracking that the production laboratory had used. That makes it possible for everyone involved to replicate and control the conditions so you can be certain where the changes you want actually came from. For something more complex than a protein farm in a jar, it would also probably include information on what techniques were used and what problems were observed and corrections made before delivery.
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pfarland

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Re: Clan phenotypes
« Reply #41 on: 21 March 2020, 11:22:27 »
According to the RPG the available Phenotypes (before DA):

Mechwarrior
Elemental
 - Elemental Advanced (Horses only)
Aerospace Fighter Pilot
 - Aerospace Naval Command (Raven only)
Protomech
Vehicle Crewman (Horses only)
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