The thin veneer of Kuritan orientalism

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Don't look too closely at the Germanization of the Lyran Commonwealth. Or that fact that the Federated Suns was founded upon a medieval theme-park.

But the LC's Gemanization was never anything beyond them speaking German as their national language.  There's nothing about them dining on sausages and sauerkraut at every meal, wearing lederhosen all the time, or spending their free time polka dancing the way depictions of the Combine bludgeons you with "LOOK AT HOW BLEEPING JAPANESE WE ARE!"

[nerd]

But the LC's Gemanization was never anything beyond them speaking German as their national language.  There's nothing about them dining on sausages and sauerkraut at every meal, wearing lederhosen all the time, or spending their free time polka dancing the way depictions of the Combine bludgeons you with "LOOK AT HOW BLEEPING JAPANESE WE ARE!"

Exactly. German as a National Language was how the Steiners were selling themselves as interstellar unifiers, and even early sources noted how the LC was a realm where wearing colorful planetary dress was expected at formal events, especially if it was divergent from the norm.

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . Whiting on Coventry I thought was supposed to be a stereotypical German/Bavarian village like this tourist trap my mother loves-



Then you get Tharkad's 1 world biome we get which is generally a Nordic frozen North, especially with the depiction of the Triad and palace which sounds like Asgard fantasy construction.

The ONLY one you where you do not seem to get a caricature mono-culture IMO is the League . . . mostly b/c its ignored?  4SW the CapCon comes across as 50s Red China while Xin Sheng overlays bits of the Dynasty periods.

[Kidd]

That's because the League is considered a crazy melting pot of peoples, even in a universe of crazy melting pots of peoples

But the LC's Gemanization was never anything beyond them speaking German as their national language.  There's nothing about them dining on sausages and sauerkraut at every meal, wearing lederhosen all the time, or spending their free time polka dancing the way depictions of the Combine bludgeons you with "LOOK AT HOW BLEEPING JAPANESE WE ARE!"

That's because yukata are way more comfy than lederhosen :D

And I'm not Japanese, but there was a time when I ate sushi practically every day. (At the time I lived opposite a late-night sushi place of decent quality.) Still would if I could :D

Whereas currywurst and sauerkraut, although also delightful, isn't perceived to be as nutritious as a bento box.

[Daryk]

Kidd, did you miss the Hornblower and Sharpe's Rifles series?  Sean Bean was even in the latter!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Tharkad very explicitly has a tropical equatorial band. The cover art of TRO 3075 is from one of the planet's tropical jungles.

Also,  Nordic is not the same thing as German.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but everyone gives them the 'German' overtones but Tharkad always was described in a Nordic fantasy type construction.  And its always described as a type of ice planet, the only time in fiction its not that I recall is when Malvina is doing her ocean walk in Bonfire.  I never said I bought into the 'single biome' presentation but a lot of the art and as I said most of the fiction depicts it as winter or getting over winter.  The last only occurs when Vic is visiting the grave afaik.

[Kidd]

It's not, but it's their standout trait, as they vie for at least 2 other factions for fantasy Norse tropes.

Kidd, did you miss the Hornblower and Sharpe's Rifles series?  Sean Bean was even in the latter!

Course not. I referenced the latter here just the other day...

But they didnt capture worldwide imagination quite like GOT did. Sharpe was pretty low budget, as British TV tends to be.

[Liam's Ghost]

There's a fundamental difference to how a relatively free society goes about cultural unity and how an outright authoritarian one goes about cultural unity. It's a lot easier to make people... lets say "enthusiastic"... about embracing a cultural standard they'd never heard of before when you have secret police, absolute power, and a comfortable understanding of the origins of the term Decimate.

[Koshirou]

Look no further than Victor Milan's Black Dragon trilogy,

When those came out (well actually, when they reached local stores, which always took a while in those dark times), one of two things happened.
Either this trilogy was so cringe that it finally shocked me out of my illusions about BT fiction in general.
Or I had matured to the point where for the first time I picked up some BTech fiction and realized "Hey, wait a second... this is garbage. Come to think of it... all of this is garbage!"

And it wasn't the Japanese elements either, though I am quite sure these would be many times worse to me now.

There's a fundamental difference to how a relatively free society goes about cultural unity and how an outright authoritarian one goes about cultural unity.

More to the point, there's also a fundamental difference to how good books use inspiration by real world cultures and how low brow schlock does.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I've read some of Milan's Battletech novels and some of his non-Battletech novels and found that they were all cringy.

[Kidd]

Either this trilogy was so cringe that it finally shocked me out of my illusions about BT fiction in general.
Or I had matured to the point where for the first time I picked up some BTech fiction and realized "Hey, wait a second... this is garbage. Come to think of it... all of this is garbage!"

And it wasn't the Japanese elements either, though I am quite sure these would be many times worse to me now.
More to the point, there's also a fundamental difference to how good books use inspiration by real world cultures and how low brow schlock does.

I don't know what's what's cringey about them, I admire the japanese-inspired worldbuilding, which is the main contribution on the topic, and the many varied side characters which are not some mild variation of "sci-fi military man" which makes up 90% of Battletech novels.

If Cassie Suthorn is the cringe (which I often hear) she's no different from the archetypal heroes of many award-winning books and blockbuster films.

[Koshirou]

If Cassie Suthorn is the cringe (which I often hear) she's no different from the archetypal heroes of many award-winning books and blockbuster films.

That is not an argument for quality.  :P

But yeah, even though I clearly remember that Miss I-kill-BattleMechs-with-Knives did annoy me, I don't think that, in retrospective, this character was the main problem either. As I said, it's just as likely that at that point, my tastes had simply developed to a point where I no longer enjoyed reading that kind of book.

The Japanese-style world building was not particularly interesting to me at that point. What I remember from the novels was pervasive hokiness and "badass moments" which just seemed like the plot being full of itself, if that makes sense. Plus some vague memories of really terrible writing which I'm not going to go into detail about.

On the plus side, in contrast to say, the Warrior and Blood of Kerensky trilogies, I don't recall misogynist, social Darwinist or "yellow peril" undercurrents, nor idiot plots that didn't make any ****** sense, nor a complete lack of sense of space that basically threw the established BTU out of the window, nor incredibly repetitive descriptions (good old Blood of Kerensky drinking game: Take a shot every time a characters hands are "knotted" or curled or balled into fists "in frustration").

[Kidd]

That is not an argument for quality.  :P

But yeah, even though I clearly remember that Miss I-kill-BattleMechs-with-Knives did annoy me, I don't think that, in retrospective, this character was the main problem either. As I said, it's just as likely that at that point, my tastes had simply developed to a point where I no longer enjoyed reading that kind of book.

The Japanese-style world building was not particularly interesting to me at that point. What I remember from the novels was pervasive hokiness and "badass moments" which just seemed like the plot being full of itself, if that makes sense. Plus some vague memories of really terrible writing which I'm not going to go into detail about.

On the plus side, in contrast to say, the Warrior and Blood of Kerensky trilogies, I don't recall misogynist, social Darwinist or "yellow peril" undercurrents, nor idiot plots that didn't make any ****** sense, nor a complete lack of sense of space that basically through the established BTU out of the window, nor incredibly repetitive descriptions (good old Blood of Kerensky drinking game: Take a shot every time a characters hands are "knotted" or curled or balled into fists "in frustration").

It's not an argument for quality, but I posit it's not complete schlock either.

Yeah, as you say, BT fiction is sci-fi pulp at best. So to me the trilogy stands out for pretty much the same reasons, and it's at least that little more deeper than "the thin veneer" that is BT otherwise.

[deathfrombeyond]

I've read some of Milan's Battletech novels and some of his non-Battletech novels and found that they were all cringy.

I liked Milan’s Star Trek novel from the depths which is the first book of his that I read.

I also happened to like his Battletech trilogy as well. I’d put him at number two behind charrete (sp?) for Battletech authors.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

He was a very polarizing author- people either tend to regard him as one of the best or one of the worst, with remarkably little inbetween.

[Colt Ward]

Wait, were we talking about the Cassie Suthorn books for the Japanese veneer or Heir to the Dragon & Wolves on the Border?

[deathfrombeyond]

Most fans sleep on prelude to war because it was a Mechwarrior novel and it didn’t involve any of the major players. Underrated novel, in my opinion. Probably the best of the pre dark age Mechwarrior novels.