Author Topic: Which fighter to pick  (Read 272 times)

Primus203

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 78
Which fighter to pick
« on: 12 March 2024, 13:22:11 »
So I have two fighters their really just subvariants of each other.

The all energy design.
Code: [Select]
Dagger Air Superiority Aero

Mass: 55 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 330 XL
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     7 ER Medium Laser
     1 Laser AMS
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3060
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 9,481,601 C-bills

Type: Dagger Air Superiority
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,594

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        330 XL               12.5
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         8                       
Heat Sinks:                   19 [38]                 9
Fuel:                         800                  10.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          125                     7

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    38   
     Wings                 31/31   
     Aft                     25   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
3 ER Medium Laser       NOS       3.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Laser AMS               NOS       1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
2 ER Medium Laser       RWG       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite         FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer      FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
2 ER Medium Laser       LWG       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 

A design that drops one ton of armor and three er medium lasers and their heatsinks to fit an lb-x 5 and two tons of ammo.
Code: [Select]
Gunslinger Air Superiority Aero

Mass: 55 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 330 XL
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     3 ER Medium Laser
     1 LB 10-X AC
     1 Laser AMS
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3060
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 9,565,751 C-bills

Type: Gunslinger Air Superiority
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,357

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        330 XL               12.5
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         8                       
Heat Sinks:                   10 [20]                 0
Fuel:                         800                  10.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          107                     6

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    32   
     Wings                 27/27   
     Aft                     21   


Weapons
and Ammo                    Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
LB 10-X AC                    NOS       11.0     2     10   10    0    0 
ER Medium Laser               NOS       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Laser AMS                     NOS       1.5      7      3    0    0    0 
ER Medium Laser               RWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite               FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo (20)     FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer            FSLG      4.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ER Medium Laser               LWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
So is one notably better at air superiority over the other? Or is it a depends on the situation? Or are these both garbage and do I need to go back to the drawing board.

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3648
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #1 on: 12 March 2024, 14:08:19 »
I'd say the cannon is better for in atmosphere against con fighters but lasers are better in space. Additionally I think AMS on fighters are suboptimal as you can go evasive at range and that's often a good play if outranged.

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1709
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #2 on: 13 March 2024, 00:56:11 »
Ive heard a few times the most important thing for a fighter is armor.  So the laser version has more armor, thus its superior.  The large bump in damage the ER mediums have also is killer, but the armor alone is probably enough.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37370
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #3 on: 13 March 2024, 18:04:26 »
The laser version is clearly superior for many reasons, including those mentioned above.  The raw damage it can inflict makes it FAR more useful outside an atmosphere, where the majority of fights take place (fiction not withstanding).

Mechanis

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #4 on: 14 March 2024, 13:36:57 »
 Both of these are what fighter pilots refer to as "skeet".

Especially for a 55 ton bird, there is no excuse for having less than 41 armor points in any location. Any fighter with less than that anywhere is effectively automatically bad, because medium lasers are the single most common weapon in aero, and there's *loads* of things with cluster 5. For an airframe to be in any way survivable rather than a pilot killing deathtrap,it cannot have armor thresholds less than 5.

Here's an example, which could meme on either of those:
 
Code: [Select]
Type/Model: Misericordia   
Tech: Inner Sphere
Vessel type: Aerospace Fighter
Mass: 45 tons
Power Plant: 270 XL Fusion, 15 DHS, 6t Fuel
Safe Thrust: 8 (4 Gs)
Maximum Thrust: 12 (6 Gs)
Armor Type: 11.0t Ferro-Aluminum (71/42/42)
Armament:
 4 ER Medium Laser (Nose)
 1 ER PPC (Nose)
1512 BV
15 tons lighter, but far better firepower, far superior ability to take a hit, while having essentially the same speed profile.

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #5 on: 19 March 2024, 02:48:44 »
My very limited experience you want an Assault fighter with a minimum Threshold of 15 in the nose and 7 - 10 everywhere else . Have Heavy  PPC and Thunderbolt 10 or 20  with some point defense and an ECM . If every weapon you use provokes a threashold crit check and almost no weapons the opposition uses don't you can outlast vs out fight most opposition.  All of the given air superiority fighters demands you defeat the enemy as opposed to force a retreat by taking too much damage over you . Ultimately all fighters do is fly escourt or cap both are endurance tests . If my take on the mechanics of a fighter's function is incorrect in any way please let me learn what and why .

Mechanics is correct you  Cannot have Thresholds less than 5 .  That is dead man flying.His Misiacordia fighter is the best design on this post.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2024, 02:59:28 by Col Toda »

Mechanis

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #6 on: 19 March 2024, 20:22:48 »
Honestly the vast majority of the time, for Inner Sphere tech, even PPCs will be able to threshold a lot of stuff; 91 armor is a pretty big investment.

   Basically, your big targets to hit, for ASF armor, are 41 (the lowest you should go), 71 (which handles Large Lasers) and 91 (which will handle PPCs. It's *generally* not practical to get to 151 for gauss/cERPPC immunity, as that tends to cut your available weapons payload to an unacceptable degree.

Weapons wise, lasers, Particle Cannons, and plasma are very dominant, with Streak missiles also being notably very good; Autocannons, meanwhile, are worthless outside the basic AC 20 for maximum thresholding against DropShips - LBXs are forced to use Cluster rounds with the very high damage reduction that imposes because of how those are handled in Aero, while RACs and Ultras are hard locked to their maximum fire rates, with the heat generation, accuracy penalties, jam chance and high ammo requirements that imposes.

One should also generally avoid armor with special effects (reflec, ferrolam, etc) and stick with the Ferro-Aluminum in its various flavors- the Squadron rules (which you will be mostly using in a space battle) don't apply any such effects, only caring about raw points.

The really important thing is to remember that ASF can't do "Speed is armor"; the only way that applies is being so much more manuverable than your target that you can keep entirely out of its firing arcs. Which generally needs a 5 or greater advantage in Safe Thrust, which... Is not especially practical, and even then a gamble.

Combat between ASFs tends to be short, sharp, and leave the looser getting buried in a shoebox with what's left of his bird.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37370
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #7 on: 19 March 2024, 21:08:05 »
Heh... that conventional wisdom would have been one of the selling points for the Blazer Cannon... ;)

Lagrange

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #8 on: 19 March 2024, 21:25:34 »
...
Lots of good advice here.  I'd add:
1) Machine guns and/or small lasers filling otherwise empty slots on the wings are good---they provides antimissile defense at long range and are cheap damage amplifiers at short range.
2) High speed engagements shift things strongly in favor of that AC/20, or possibly the Streaks.
3) On heavier designs you can get a nice double hole punch at long range using ERPPC+PPC Capacitor+Gauss.
4) I personally prefer heavier designs for space superiority since the mediums suffer from an SI valley where if they use their improved speed over heavies they often end up with cascading structural damage.

Primus203

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 78
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #9 on: 20 March 2024, 01:33:11 »
To everyone who keeps mentioning more armor I revised the design a few days ago just didn't post it. Dropped one ton of fuel, one ER Medium laser leaving me with six ,dropped speed from eight to seven, replaced laser AMS with physical ammo ams, dropped now redundant heatsinks.

Result increase in armor from 7 to 16.5 tons.

Code: [Select]
Dagger Air Superiority Aero

Mass: 55 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 275 XL
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     6 ER Medium Laser
     1 Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3060
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-E
Cost: 8,457,309 C-bills

Type: Dagger Air Superiority
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,983

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        275 XL                  8
Safe Thrust: 7
Max Thrust: 11
Structural Integrity:         8                       
Heat Sinks:                   16 [32]                 6
Fuel:                         720                   9.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    327                  16.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    90
     Wings                 82/82   
     Aft                     73   


Weapons
and Ammo                        Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 ER Medium Laser                 NOS       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Anti-Missile System               NOS       0.5      1      3    0    0    0 
2 ER Medium Laser                 RWG       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Angel ECM Suite                   FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Anti-Missile System Ammo (24)     FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer                FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
2 ER Medium Laser                 LWG       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 
« Last Edit: 20 March 2024, 01:37:39 by Primus203 »

Lagrange

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #10 on: 20 March 2024, 07:18:18 »
The 2.5 tons dedicated to AMS can prevent 2*12*3=72 points of damage.  Used instead as armor it's 45 points.  Used as armor, it's much more universal.

The nose arc contains the right wing arc and left wing arc, so weapon placement in the nose arc is highly preferred.

The Angel doesn't really provide any advantage over a Guardian in space combat.  It's just more expensive and heavier.

You really prefer to have 91 rather than 90 armor points on the noise.

Primus203

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 78
Re: Which fighter to pick
« Reply #11 on: 22 March 2024, 22:31:36 »
So I've been unable to post for the last few days due to forum issues I've taken advice into account. I'm not willing to drop AMS as the fighters are also supposed to support bombers against warships.

So the AMS is to increase  missile defense against a missile heavy adversary. I have however removed one of the two tons of AMS ammo.

Combined with changing from angel ecm to guardian and the removal of a half ton more fuel I gain two more tons of armor bringing me past 91 in all aspects.

Code: [Select]
Dagger Air Superiority Aero

Mass: 55 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 275 XL
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     6 ER Medium Laser
     1 Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3060
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Cost: 7,817,131 C-bills

Type: Dagger Air Superiority
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 2,043

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        275 XL                  8
Safe Thrust: 7
Max Thrust: 11
Structural Integrity:         7                       
Heat Sinks:                   16 [32]                 6
Fuel:                         680                   8.5
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    367                  18.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    92   
     Wings                 92/92   
     Aft                     91   


Weapons
and Ammo                        Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
4 ER Medium Laser                 NOS       4.0      5      5    5    0    0 
ER Medium Laser                   RWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Anti-Missile System Ammo (12)     FSLG      1.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ECM Suite                         FSLG      1.5      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer                FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ER Medium Laser                   LWG       1.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Anti-Missile System               AFT       0.5      1      3    0    0    0