Author Topic: Need help fighting tanks!!!  (Read 20442 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #30 on: 18 October 2019, 16:12:42 »
Plasma cannons deal damage in 5 point clusters to tanks.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #31 on: 18 October 2019, 16:17:53 »
Yeah, dropped that line when I was going through the roll set . . . still with tanks, its going to hit mostly on 2 facings & turret . . . couple of turns you are going to get into the squishy bits.
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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #32 on: 18 October 2019, 16:27:31 »
Second, you are talking about crits . . . on the leg?  Unless you are playing with floating crits they should all happen in the torso- unless you are not limiting special ammo, like Armor-Piercing AC or Tandem-Charge SRM ammos.
I probably should have been more specific there... we've had a few legs blown off due to some lucky 12 rolls on the critical hit table. Not a huge deal just wanted to throw out some examples. Loosing a leg is frustration city for the newbies but they've since learned the value of partial cover. :)

Stooping Hawk Tankbuster- 4 Plasma Cannons (place 1 in CT w/1 ammo bin in head), 3t ammo, 4 JJ, and rest DHS = dead tanks.
 
I have not used any of the Omni rules yet but this has certainly sparked my interest. :o Thanks!
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Red Pins

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #33 on: 18 October 2019, 16:34:24 »
So I recently started college and have taught a few guys here the total warfare rules for BT. Thankfully, two of the three guys I play with decided to mainly play Mechs, which is obviously really fun. We only have one problem. There's one guy who has taken it upon himself to only play custom tanks. (Lots of MMLs and armor, and most of them move at 4/6... that's what I get for teaching him to to use MegaMek lab.) Now, our games have become struggles of running one or two medium mechs against at least two or three medium tanks that are just showering us with missiles or the occasional PPC. And we loose. Not all the time, but enough. I'm new to this game and certainly not a stranger to strategy, but sometimes superior numbers and armor points just win in a war of attrition. Not to mention, greater effects of critical hits on our mechs make them seem fragile... I know better than to get mad at a few plastic tanks, and loosing a game here and there is nothing new for me, but my new recruits are starting to get tired of it and may move to tanks as well! I NEED HELP ENDING THIS REIN OF TERROR!
.

...why is he pulling tanks with horses?

Try battlearmor, cluster ammo from LB-X ACs, VTOLs with AC/2s, inferno SRMs, Light mechs with jump jets to close with him quickly and kick him to death, and failing all that - force him to use Canon units.

They're nowhere near as good.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #34 on: 18 October 2019, 19:03:04 »

Put simply, we've just been having very lucky crit hits that blow a leg off or hit a gyro or something early game, which can be frustrating to my newbies.
  There isn't a whole lot you can do about luck. Your mech players are going to have to learn. As the GM, you have the right for a copy of every design used in your games. If they are using MegaMek (I swear by it) I'm sure your tanker is play testing his designs -Something I've always done before fielding a custom unit on tabletop. Have your mech players do the same. A lance of light, fast mechs is worth more than the the same BV of a single, kick-butt heavy mech. 

« Last Edit: 19 October 2019, 03:15:31 by Mohammed As`Zaman Bey »

BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #35 on: 18 October 2019, 22:13:40 »
Quick update for everyone who posted on this thread: Recently used a few of the strategies listed here against two tanks. BV was around 1,500, so I ran a Thunderbolt TDR-7M (Figured that the LRM 15 with its clusters and a streak SRM 2 would help with critting, and the medium/large lasers would give me good brawling at medium ranges.) Attacked the sides, maneuvered for melee when I could (it didn't happen too much lol) and tried to roll high on the motive damage tables... the result was a complete success. Destroyed both of the tanks in a few turns after they both became immobilized/moved ridiculously slow. Thanks for all the help guys, the strategies worked just as intended! MECHS FOR THE WIN!!!

Oh yeah, and we're no longer playing with MMLs  :thumbsup:
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #36 on: 18 October 2019, 23:37:32 »
Well, please don't hate MML-3 much. It is a technological revolution of the missile system.

Anyway, it is happy to see that the idea works. :)
« Last Edit: 18 October 2019, 23:41:15 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #37 on: 18 October 2019, 23:47:42 »
mmls scale in weight as if they were SRMs. don't hate on something that can spray srms up close and minefields at range

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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #38 on: 19 October 2019, 03:57:13 »
MECHS FOR THE WIN!!!

  Good for you!

  It's a learning curve. There is no ultimate weapon or unit in BT. Every unit has their strengths and weaknesses; When you've played long enough, you will know how to exploit both. After every game, my group would retire to an all-night coffee house to discuss the game and review the lessons learned. A debriefing helps reinforce training and make sure  all the players are on the same page. The tankers in our group learned that the rules keep mechs on the top of the food chain but vehicles  and infantry must never be underestimated.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #39 on: 19 October 2019, 05:48:55 »
Glad to hear it!  Hopefully your tank player took the loss well, and didn't take the wrong lessons from the battle.  It would be a shame if they thought the lack of MMLs is what cramped their style.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #40 on: 19 October 2019, 07:16:46 »
LBX autocannons, and inferno SRMs on FAST platforms.  you need at least 2 SRM infernoes for the really juicy crits, thanks to changes to TW, and you're going to have problems if he figures out the optimal way to run tanks in TW (finda  good parking space, park, and shoot. don't bother trying to move, it's counterproductive after that first motive system crit.)
plasma rifles are also good. 

Basically your guy is running customs, so use customs optimized for killing conventional units.  That tends to mean lots of crit-seeking goodness and secondary effects weapons.  things to avoid: Anything that jams, and builds optimized for killing 'mechs (Icebox energy boat builds).

it's a shame so many f what used to be legal aren't available now in terms of basic rules-the old inferno rules really forced a different kind of engagement, since a Com-2D commando could kill an Alacorn outright or force it out of position easily just by popping up with some racks of inferno munitions. (old rule that no longer applies; if your  tank is in a hex and was hit by, or near-missed by, an Inferno SRM, he had to make a survival roll during the heat phase or die, and if he STAYED there, he had to do it again with a penalty.  this kind of made parking with tanks a REALLY BAD IDEA.  the change to TW's rules for infernoes have made it THE BEST IDEA EVER when running tanks. likewise, moving the artillery to the optional rules means camping up 2 to a hex is now THE BEST IDEA EVAR for tanks that park, esp. since Swarm LRMs are no longer a thing.)

but while most of the 'cheap' ways that 'mech units killed tanks have been removed from the game, and the crit table's been expanded to 'mech duration rolling contests, crit-seeking still works, just not that often.  LBXs', large racks of SRMs, large racks of LRMs, plasma rifles, inferno missiles, these still work, and since his tracks are moving 4/6 at the start, that means they're not the total slab of armor they could be at 3/5, you just need to have something faster enough to provoke difficult targeting, that employs every cheap way left in the game to exploit  his decision to use tanks in groups.  Notably, crit-seekers are your very bestest friends ever, because if he's optimized himself at 4/6, you're still going to waste a lot of time eroding armor plate before getting to the juicy innards.  massed cluster rolls will help here, you want things like the LBX Enfield 'mech if you can get it, or just turn out a custom with the same basic layout, backed up by archers and catapults to rain down the LRM fire en-masse as he makes his approach-force HIM to play aggressively, move just enough to get a TMM without the jumping penalty or running penalty, fire, move next turn, fire.  rain down clusters of crit-seekers (LRMs are teh easiest go-to for this), then dust him with MORE crit seeking goodness as the range closes with LBX autocannons, then deliver fire with plasma and inferno at closer ranges.

it does mean more dice rolling.  I recommend building a dice-box to handle groups of location/to hit data to speed up fire-phases, and have your movement pre-planned in advance with at least two options; won initiative, and lost initiative.

a few options you might consider:

Cavalry AH vtols for support, or any fast moving, SRM or LRM armed VTOL units to supplement or compliment the mechs on your team.  alternately, fast moving light 'mechs that can build a high to-hit number like the venerable Jenner, able to bring cluster/critty weapons into range and maybe survive the experience.  Alternately push for higher BV games that let you run heavier 'mechs that can weather the papercuts and get in close, where kiks, stomps, and axes can be brought into play, or shift venues from open terrain, to urban terrain and introduce him to the joys of rubble, building collapses and blocking roads. (Terrain that is impassable to vees, even tracks, can be created and used by 'mechs, urban tightens sight-lines and reduces the effect and impact of his massed LRM fire, and so on.)

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BasicRH

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #41 on: 19 October 2019, 15:16:02 »
It's a learning curve. There is no ultimate weapon or unit in BT. Every unit has their strengths and weaknesses; When you've played long enough, you will know how to exploit both. After every game, my group would retire to an all-night coffee house to discuss the game and review the lessons learned. A debriefing helps reinforce training and make sure  all the players are on the same page. The tankers in our group learned that the rules keep mechs on the top of the food chain but vehicles  and infantry must never be underestimated.

Speakin' the truth man. I think my players are understanding the concept that battletech doesn't have a single "meta" way to play. That's why it's such a great game, because with a little practice, almost every strategy has its merits.  ;)
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Daryk

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #42 on: 19 October 2019, 15:20:10 »
True that... and welcome to no longer having to prove you're human!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #43 on: 19 October 2019, 20:57:29 »
Orbital Bombardment......Nuke them from space. only way to be sure. >:D

Strafing runs from heavy aerospace fighters.

Bigger and meaner Mechs. If he is use to going against Mediums and Lights. Throw a heavy or even an Assault if your particularly salty. They gonna learn today!!!
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #44 on: 20 October 2019, 19:27:08 »
Speakin' the truth man. I think my players are understanding the concept that battletech doesn't have a single "meta" way to play. That's why it's such a great game, because with a little practice, almost every strategy has its merits.  ;)

Doing the opposite of what I suggest is a solid foundation to any tactical acumen

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #45 on: 22 October 2019, 07:14:17 »
Artillery, Mines, any type of autocannon that out ranges LRMs. Specialty ammo can help. Field Gun Artillery for fun. Using the various special armor types. Counter LRM batteries. AMS lots of AMS (ballistic, laser, and RISC)


If you don't mind getting a bit closer that would allow for artillery cannons, and more autocannon types. Fast units with incendiary weapons. Or just fast units like Savannah Masters, and Fireball Mechs. There's one that can move 40 MP. And LAMs. People hate LAMs. You could also go with waves of small fast support vehicles. Mount some infantry weapons on them, get under their LRMs minimum range and give them death by paper cuts. Make him choose between dealing with all the small vehicles running about or the larger units shelling them.

You could also use Super Heavy Mechs. Give them some long range weapons, specialty armor, and lots of AMS and let them draw the tanks fire while your lighter faster units come in from the sides.


And if he really likes tanks, has he met QuadVees yet?   Or AutoMechs?

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #46 on: 22 October 2019, 07:24:24 »
Mechanized infantry come to mind. Something fast enough to close the gap with his tanks. The sheer number of damage rolls means you’re gonna start immobilizing them quickly.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #47 on: 22 October 2019, 14:54:42 »
I just had my first experience using a tank and had a really good time.  The sheer mass of armor was really effective as was the ability to fire all of my weapons and not care about heat.

That being said I could see that tanks have a LOT of weaknesses to exploit.  Even being attacked from the front my tank could be immobilized and I nearly was, the only thing keeping me in the fight was that I backed the tank into a little corner and since I was the biggest target the mechs all stayed close to me allowing me to shoot and that I had a turret and LRMs allowing me to indirect fire when they did move out of sight.  With a few lucky hits a tank could be taken out of a fight much more often than a mech of the same value.  And this was a combat with a minimum of weapons that are more effective on tanks (namely they had some SRMs and one LB10x AC but had no infernos, no plasma weaponry, and even the stuff they did have were not able to be massed against me).  If they did have more weapons that were extra effective against tanks I do not think it would have lasted long even with the huge amount of armor.

I now have a lot of respect for tanks but I also see that they have a lot of weaknesses to exploit that really compensate for their advantages.  I will say though that their advantages are the type that can also be used to absolutely devastating effect if you can put them in the right situation.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #48 on: 22 October 2019, 18:24:38 »
Once they're immobilized, tanks will succumb to repeated kicks from 'mechs they can't shoot.

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #49 on: 22 October 2019, 19:26:48 »
Once they're immobilized, tanks will succumb to repeated kicks from 'mechs they can't shoot.

Why wouldn't an immobilized tank be able to shoot?   ???
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #50 on: 22 October 2019, 19:34:32 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #51 on: 22 October 2019, 19:58:10 »
If the mech enters the hex of the immobilized vehicle, the vee can’t shoot it - infantry gets the monopoly on that. Physical attacks on the other hand  :beatdown:

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #52 on: 22 October 2019, 20:14:59 »
At that point, forced withdrawal rules (including abandoning vehicles) should be seriously considered.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #53 on: 22 October 2019, 22:02:28 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

Oh? News to me...

I'll just use my turreted SRM Pack to set fire to everthing near me....  >:D :thumbsup:

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #54 on: 22 October 2019, 22:08:22 »
Good idea.

That means you can't escape when my mech jumps into your hex and starts doing the stompy dance.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #55 on: 23 October 2019, 09:22:05 »
I love it when the opponent fields one big, scary tank with an AC/20.  My little Locust runs up to it from 10-12 hexes away and stands on its turret, then kick it.  If I win initiative, I stand on the tank and kick it again.  If I lose initiative, I run 10-11 hexes and turn, and if he moves to bring me into gun range, the to-hit odds are 4 base, +4 for long range, +4 for my run, and at least +1 for his own movement.  Unless he's got a Veteran gunner, or moves at Flank Speed to move into Medium Range ***if*** he was facing in the right direction already (giving him a terrible shot at 12+ to-hit), he can't hit me.

Usual outcome: either the tank is immobilized, or its turret jams.  At that point, the Locust pilot just needs to avoid mistakes and it's "game over" for the tanker.  Once in 3-5 games, the tank will hit one of those lucky shots and core the Locust.

When the opponent fields TWO of those big, scary tanks, and places them 1-2 hexes apart, then it gets a lot harder, unless you field something that can outrange the tanks.
« Last Edit: 23 October 2019, 09:24:12 by Kovax »

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #56 on: 23 October 2019, 10:08:27 »
Tanks (nor anything else save infantry) can't shoot units in the same hex with them...

What about A/B/M-pods? can those be triggered against infantry in the same hex? (I honestly don't know but it would make sense to me.)
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #57 on: 23 October 2019, 10:26:35 »
I never thought about putting an m pod on it but that sounds potentially promising

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #58 on: 23 October 2019, 10:27:20 »
A and B pods can be used against infantry/BA in the same hex.  I'm not sure if M pods can.
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Re: Need help fighting tanks!!!
« Reply #59 on: 23 October 2019, 10:53:21 »
Bear in mind, A-pods are extremely restricted as to when they can attack infantry - highly recommend you read their rules in detail beforehand to avoid any unpleasant surprises.
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