Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series  (Read 5460 times)

Questia

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Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« on: 18 September 2021, 08:03:49 »
External Context

Melee mechs have been somewhat polarizing both in- and out-of-universe. In-universe, the Clans' decisive range advantage and the deluge of high-speed designs in response to that meant that the hatchets on ostensibly melee-enhanced designs like the Axman were reduced to largely decorative pieces. Out-of-universe, the rules have always leaned in favor of kicks and punches, and as such hatchets and their ilk have been seen as inefficient.

But as one poster succinctly puts it about eight years ago, when referring to the Berserker...
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

It is within this context that the Ti Ts'ang finds itself. I took the time to look up the name; apparently it (or its Pinyin romanization Dizang) is the bodhisattva in Chinese Buddhism dedicated to the salvation of hell-tormented souls. In a fun coincidence, its opposition included Yanlo Wang, the Chinese manifestation of the Indian lord of death, and the famed custom Centurion's namesake. Both mechs are mediums (well, pseudo-medium in the Ti Ts'ang's case) with a melee weapon, and from the Yen-Lo-Wang's second refit onwards, TSM.

Given the above, it's obvious what the Ti Ts'ang is - a melee-focused 'Mech. More than just being merely focused, however, I can say it is melee-specialized - it is the first mech in the history of the game to firmly build around all the benefits and limitations of TSM. From its movement profile to its weapons, it takes the ideas started by the No-Dachi NDA-1K and iterates them to a whole new level.

It is here that we analyze the Ti Ts'ang, and how its reputation as one of the best melee mechs around came to be.

In-Universe Context

The year is 3059, and for the first time in centuries, the Capellans have it good. Not only is their Chancellor the First Lord of the reborn Star League, they even managed to reclaim most of the territory they lost in the Fourth Succession War. Sensing the momentum and newfound morale, Sun-Tzu Liao chose this moment to enact sweeping changes across the Confederation, under the banner of Xin Sheng ("rebirth" in Mandarin).

Among the reforms were commissions for several new BattleMech designs, spread across various local manufacturers. This is where Ceres Metal Industries, known for its Vindicator and Thunder designs, enters the picture. While there are no further details as to what exactly the commission asked for, this can be reasonably inferred from the specifications of what would become the Ti Ts'ang TSG-9H.

Parts Specifications (TSG-9H)

The critical thing to note here is that every single part is manufactured on Capella by Ceres Metal Industries. This is a double-edged sword, but one that mostly works in Liao's favor - production time is sure to be relatively short, and it's not like Capella is in much danger of being captured anyway.

The SL Special chassis, unusually for the Confederation, is of Endo Steel make. This isn't new to Ceres Metal; they have experience from manufacturing Firestarter OmniMechs. It is, however, new in terms of only being the third homegrown Endo Steel chassis; prior to this, the only other natively Capellan mechs with zero-G-forged frames are the Huron Warrior and the Duan Gung, both circa or after 3055.

The Hermes 360 XL powering the design, meanwhile, is decidedly Kuritan; it appears on DCMS mainstays at the time like the Grand Dragon and the Sunder. Evidently, Ceres Metal has managed to reverse-engineer or otherwise acquire the blueprints for it, as it has local production facilities running just for the Ti Ts'ang.

The armor and electronics, in contrast, are Ceres Metal mainstays. Durallex Heavy armor can be found on Catapults everywhere, making supply chains basically a non-issue. The Ceres-Com Model 21-Rs and C-Apple Churchill are also practically ubiquitous - take any random Vindicator; they're likely to have both. Their experience with these electronics may have made integrating TAG a cinch, too. Meanwhile, the jump jets are labeled Chevron 1, but i wouldn't be surprised if they were adapted from the Anderson Propulsion systems used on the Vindicators.

Of course, no talk about the Ti Ts'ang is complete without putting the TSM in context. Accounting for retcons, the technology still remains a novelty in 3059 - beyond one-offs and experimental designs, the only known production designs to use it are the Centurion (CN9-D3), the Scarabus (SCB-9T), and the No-Dachi (NDA-1K and NDA-2K). Among these, only the No-Dachi seems designed to take advantage of it in particular. Perhaps Sun-Tzu saw those DCMS sword-carriers in action and wanted to one-up them in a form of "nobody uses Capellan tech like true Capellans".

Finally, the lasers are of local manufacture, owing to licenses from Diverse Optics. The ER lasers might actually be the most cutting-edge of the technology employed, interestingly enough; not even the TSM mentioned above is as fresh.

What does this all sum up to? Well... considering literally every component is manufactured on-planet and a good chunk of it is recycled from Capellan mechs, Ceres Metal must have put manufacture time and parts supply pretty high on the list. More than that, however, the sheer quantity of novel technology in the Ti Ts'ang proved that they were willing to spare no expense in their design.

Of course, all that would be for nothing if the design itself wasn't effective.
And that is where I come in.
Oh, good, we have you around now. Buckle up, this'll take a while.

Gameplay Details

Ti Ts'ang TSG-9H MUL entry
I'd normally add an image here, but not only does the MUL refuse to let their images be previewed via BBS embed, the usual image-uploading sites I've tried also do the same thing. Ah, BBS...

So, the eternal question. Speed, durability, weapons?
The only thing I'm sure of is that it definitely picks speed. At 60 tons, going at a maximum of 118.8 kph with TSM active and jumping up to 180 meters in one bound (7/11/6 in game terms) is as good as you'll get without bringing out experimental superchargers or improved jump jets. Not that you'd want either at this rate; the size of the 'mech means that those jets are eating twice as much mass as they'd be had the chassis been rated for five less tons, and you're not getting higher than +4 TMM on a run even with the supercharger.

I'd normally complain about that, but not this time. You'll see why later. But what about the rest?
Well, the XL engine skews things a little, but I still think it picked armor second. 12.5 tons of standard armor is one point short of the maximum for the chassis, arranged (in HTAL format) in a 9, 30/9, 22/6, 20, 28 pattern. Every forward location save the head can weather an AC/20, every rear location can take an IS-spec medium pulse (and the rear a large pulse) clean, and the front CT can take a double Gauss salvo from a fresh start.

Not bad. Covers just about every reasonable threat it can face in this timeline. 'course, that means Hatchet and TSM aside the weapons suffer, right?
Sort of, yeah. Five ER mediums (two in each side torso, one in the left arm) and four ER smalls (all in the left arm, surrounding the ER medium) supported by 13 DHS means that without the hatchet in the right arm it's little more than a speedier but less-armed Black Hawk-KU Prime (or Hunchback HBK-4P). Of course, that's being a bit disingenuous here - this is, after all, a melee mech first and foremost.

And that Hatchet deals 24 when running hot, yeah?
Yup. The lasers are mostly there to get it running, though they are decidedly not to be underestimated. Combined, a heat-neutral running alpha actually goes for 24+36 = 50 damage (24 + 4x5 + 2x3), with both crit-seeking and a bigger-than-AC/20 punch.

So, how do you keep things running hot, then?
You're in luck; the TSG-9H is one of the easiest TSM mechs to control the heat in. Remember that you have a total of 26 heat to spend before it overflows - a jump of 6, all five ER mediums, and two ER smalls brings you to the magic 9; a running alpha does likewise. From there, you can combine a jump with four ER mediums, add two ER smalls while running, or add the fifth ER medium while walking to stay heat-neutral. You can even push the heat to +13 as long as you've considered an exit via jets; 6/9/6 movement is still plenty enough to chase down an enemy.

Sounds good. Anything else?
There's the centerline TAG; funnily enough the longest-ranged "weapon" in its arsenal. Remember what I said about sharing armor with Catapults? Well, stick a couple of CPLT-C3s in the rear, and let the Ti Ts'ang guide their Arrow IV rounds in. Those 20-point missiles need no further explanation.

All this sums to 1841 (RS 3060u) / 1880 (MUL) BV2; somewhat expensive, but expected. Its sole quirk (shared across all Ti Ts'angs) is Hyper-Extending Actuators; good for reminding someone in your rear that they won't be getting any easy shots.

Overall, sounds like a head-hunter minus the ECM. I heard AS treated this one well (hence my not minding its tonnage inefficiency earlier)...?
Has it ever! For all of its deadliness in CBT play, it gets even deadlier in AS play. Size 3, MEL, and TSM combined grant it a whopping 5 damage in melee while - and that's 5 guaranteed damage even with Variable Damage in effect. 12"j of movement gives it a base TMM of +2/+3, and 14" on the ground with TSM on means it sits at TMM +3 no matter what move type it uses. 3/3/0 OV1 means that it can lay down 4 damage at range one turn, then run up and slice you for 5 damage the next. TAG adds another 2 damage for each friendly ARTAIV(IS/C) unit that lands the shot if the TAG hits. And pray that it never gets into your rear, because that 1 additional damage can potentially mean a dead mech where they'd live otherwise.

Good and all, but what does it cost me, and how long will it last?
A whole 39 PV, plus another 8 for every skill upgrade. And you better take care of it - it may have the TMM to dodge a good number of things, but 7/3 A/S means that it can only take two Thuds clean, and maybe survive a third if crits align. Not that you have an instakill to worry about, at least; ENE means it won't explode on an ammo crit, period.

Oh, and its role is Skirmisher. Not that great, but you still can get Speed Demon from a Striker Lance - a 5-point striker moving at 16" is bound to scare some people. This will remain constant across all Ti Ts'angs, save for one custom variant.

So run in last, hit hard, then run out first.
Yes, but that'll be saved for the Tactics section later. We still have about three production variants to cover, plus two custom variants.

Variants? You sure? Seems like this is already as good as it gets...
Eh, you never know.

Ti Ts'ang TSG-9H MUL entry
The first known variant is the TSG-9J. Seeing that the 9H really couldn't do anything significant outside of 360m (12 hexes), Ceres Metals decided to make a second variant that could. Trading the TAG, two ER mediums, two ER smalls, and a heat sink, an ER large laser sits where the TAG was.

Smells of compromise.
It does, and I don't like that smell. A heat-neutral running alpha from the large and two ER mediums is only 18 damage; not enough to force a PSR on its own. A running alpha using just the smaller lasers puts it at -3, though a full running alpha still puts it at +9. A jumping alpha minus the ER smalls is also +9; if nothing else, the heat control is still mostly intact.

I'd worry more about the temptation to use the ER large, myself.
That's the real problem here, indeed - you do not want to be caught in the open using a Ti Ts'ang. Any commander with knowledge of your design will order a kill-on-sight, and then you'll be buried in PPCs before long.

Two more: you don't even get to call in Arrow IVs here, and the BV2 increases to 1870 (RS 3060u) / 1909 (MUL).

How does it fare in AS, though?
Just about as expected, really - the only changes are to its damage (3/3/1 OV0) and specials (no TAG). Everything else, including PV cost, are unchanged. Don't worry about the TSM, though - according to the AS rules, you can outright declare that you'll be gaining 1 heat (before HT effects) by the end of your turn.

I'll take the TAG and OV1 any day. What's next, then?
Forward in time, backward in designation; that's where. Enter the TSG-9C.

Ti Ts'ang TSG-9C MUL entry
From 3069 onwards, Ceres began producing a variant armed with a Plasma Rifle in the left arm. To equip such a heavy weapon and its requisite two tons of ammo, however, it had to once again drop things. This time, three ER mediums, two ER smalls, three heat sinks, and the TAG all had to go, leaving it with two ER mediums in the right torso, and an ER small laser in the center and head each.

I appreciate the disruption and vehicle-killing power of the Plasma Rifle, but that seems like too much sacrifice...
Yes, and the most damning of all isn't even obvious at first glance. See, not only do you have to limit yourself to jump 5 in order to get a 1-turn +9, you additionally have zero options to keep a running TSG-9C heat-neutral. That's right, there is no weapon group that's heat-neutral on a run.

Once again, not only are you denied TAG, you also pay more - to the tune of 1950 (RS 3060u) / 1989 (MUL) BV2.

Great. AS stats, though?
Due to the reduced granularity of the AS system, you don't get to use the heat-generating effect of the Plasma Rifle. Instead, it's a straight downgrade all around - 2/2/0 OV1, and missing TAG. On the bright side, though, that means a corresponding decrease in PV cost - down to 35, and only 7 points per skill upgrade.

Might be worth the discount, then, depending. So, how about that third variant?
Ah, this one's special. See, unlike the previous two, this one uses experimental technology. First appearing in XTRO: Liao, the TSG-9DDC reappeared in its final form in TRO: Prototypes, making it one of the first new variants produced in the Republic era.

Ti Ts'ang TSG-9DDC MUL entry
Warrior House Dai Dai Chi liked the Ti Ts'ang, sure, but they wanted more. And more they got, after a lengthy and troubled development cycle - it wasn't until 3083 that production was in full swing.

But was it actually more?
Eh... sort of. See, it kind of made some pretty weird decisions overall. The lasers are all laid out in the same way as the TSG-9H, but the ER Smalls are traded for Small X-pulses; same range, a lot more accurate, deadlier to infantry. A 3-ton targeting computer makes the lasers even more accurate, and a 2-ton supercharger pushes its absolute maximum speed to 151.2 kph (max 7/14/6 in gameplay terms).

I'm counting a 7-ton deficit there. Where...?
From lots of places, I'll tell you. First, Dai Dai Chi collectively decided they were good enough that small cockpits won't hamper them much. Then off went the TAG, all three extra heat sinks, and a ton of armor. Finally, the hatchet was swapped out for a lighter but significantly more unwieldy (and experimental) lance.

Said armor mostly came off of the legs - HTAL readings are 9, 30/9, 20/6, 20, 22. A Falconer's long-range salvo can ravage a leg's internals now, which is not great for a mech that relies on moving fast to do what it does.

Eesh. Then there's hot, and then there's "can't run heat-neutral and cause a PSR with lasers alone". What gives?
Evidently this Warrior House's Mechwarriors like to live dangerously. A full running alpha is +19, so drop two ER mediums from that and you're set. From there, it's just mixing 5s and 3s according to your movement profile.

And that lance?
Sure, it's sitting at a net +2 to hit vs the Hatchet given the same circumstances, but at least it can force a TAC on the location you hit! If you roll 10+ twice, anyway, which is about as likely as rolling a 12 (ie 2.7%, or 1 in 36).

Quirks? Well, on top of the actuators, we have Difficult to Maintain. Improved Life Support. Jettison-Capable Weapon (Lance). Non-Standard Parts. and Protected Actuators. These are most definitely built to exacting standards, and the lance is unusual in that it can be dropped and picked up as needed. The wiki lists Rumble Seat as a quirk, but I doubt that one can fit a second pilot in the small cockpit used in the variant.

All in all, you pay 1984 (XTRO Liao) / 2013 (MUL) BV2 for this variant. Honestly, I'm not sure if it's worth that much, but you do get some nasty anti-infantry capabilities out of it.

Worst of all, it could've dropped one laser and gotten two tons out of it! A waste, I'll say. How's it in AS?
Uhh... sadly, not even AS could save it. It looks promising at first, sure - 3/3/0 OV2 means it gets some juicy backstab opportunities, helped by its 16" ground move that becomes 18" at the right temperature. But then you lose TAG, your jump's still at 12", your A/S drops to 6/3 and the PV cost balloons to 49, with a painful 10 PV cost per skill upgrade. More expensive, less durable...

Yikes. Off to the last production variant, then... hold up, Heat-Dissipating Armor?
Oh, dear. You've entered NTNU (and therefore Dark Age) territory. Last production variant time: TSG-10L.

Ti Ts'ang TSG-10L MUL entry
This may be the only Ti Ts'ang variant whose internals change so drastically. A 360 XXL engine drives an Endo-Composite Skeleton, and that in turn is wrapped in no less than 20 tons of Heat-Dissipating Armor. 20 tons, which is equal to the original 12.5 tons of standard plate.

What could be worth all that much weight?
One of the biggest threats TSM-reliant mechs face is the disruption from heat-delivery systems. Inferno SRMs, Plasma Rifles, Plasma Cannons, even a humble Flamer can throw off the delicate balancing act needed to keep those myomers running at maximum. Heat-Dissipating Armor halves and rounds down all that, ensuring that this Ti Ts'ang variant won't be pushed to shutdown by one Plasma Cannon at a bad moment.

Seems like a bit much for a hypothetical. What does the rest of it look like, though?
Interesting, to say the least. First off, the jets are gone. If you don't have a leg-friendly escape route planned, you're hosed, even with that Supercharger pushing you to a maximum of 151.2 kph under TSM (max 7/14/0).

Second, the weapons - it's the same 9-laser format as seen on the original 9H, but the exact types are different. All of them are standard versions of their equivalent ER laser - except for the arm medium, which became a Medium VSPL. In some way, this would have been an improvement in output, if not for the three additional heat sinks within the 9H's engine going missing here.

Third... well, for once, you do have the TAG again, and the hatchet remains a hatchet. The last ton, however, is filled with an unusual tool - the chaff pod. Pop that can, and you get both AMS and ECM in your immediate region for one turn.

Huh... I'd prefer something permanent, but I guess they wanted to maintain the nine-laser setup.
Most likely. At least it's easy to figure out a firing pattern here  - a running alpha is +9, so drop lasers according to taste and heat level. You might want to adapt to things differently, though; a walk is -3 compared to a run.

Its groundbound nature does have one benefit - its BV2 went down to 1730. And yes, this time RS 3145 NTNU and the MUL agree.

So, AS stats?
About as expected. Movement is 16" before TSM, with a base TMM of +3. Weapons block is 4/3/0 OV0. A/S is 7/2; it won't survive three Thuds, but it's marginally more durable than the 9DDC variant. Finally, it gains FR, short for Fire-Resistant. HT1 units won't be able to touch its heat scale, while HT2 units will have reduced effect. For all of that, PV goes up to 50, with 10 more per skill upgrade.

And with that, the main variants are done. Two custom variants remain, both of which are one-offs belonging to pilots with ties to nowhere else but the Ti Ts'ang's ideal environment: Solaris VII's arenas.

... that's a Solaris champion, isn't it.
Good eye. Kelley Metz may have the fashion sense of a Beverly Hills teenage girl, but she knows not only how to pilot and aim well, but pick good mechs as well. That head trauma back in 3062 may do numbers on her at times, but considering she went on to win the Grand Championship in 3067, I'd imagine it did little to slow her down.

This particular mech is part of the Hendry Vs. Metz scenario, known internally as Heavy Metal Mayhem. Set in the Scrapyard arena in the Reaches, it pits Kelley Metz in this Ti Ts'ang against Steven Hendry in his Morpheus in a charity match.

Ti Ts'ang "China Doll" MUL entry
Her Ti Ts'ang, named "China Doll", is interestingly enough the only Ti Ts'ang that doesn't have TSM (well, at least its 3067 incarnation doesn't). In the room freed up by the downgraded myomers and engine lies no less than 8 Improved Jump Jets and a Supercharger for great maneuverability and a top speed of 108 kph (max 5/10/8). Two ER small lasers were dropped to free the last bit of space and tonnage.

A Ti Ts'ang without TSM? Blasphemy!
Indeed, though it does free her to pursue a more measured playstyle. That Hatchet still deals 12 damage - aim that on the Punch table and you have a 1-in-6 chance to decapitate people at +3 to hit. Her jets make her quite elusive to boot - if I were to imagine her on the field, it'd resemble a seemingly erratic series of dashes, lasers putting on a show like a figure skater's ribbons... only for the dance to end abruptly with a well-placed axe.

Sadly, there is no official Alpha Strike card, (Unfortunate...) but we can assume its stats from the given data. Movement is 12"/16"j, giving it a TMM maximum of +4 considering the jump bonus. Weapons are 3/3/0 OV1, and it loses both TSM and TAG compared to the 9H. I have no idea what the PV would be, but I'd assume it to be between 39 and 49.

Despite all that, though, its BV2 is actually lower than usual, sitting at a comfy 1739.

One more variant, then. Since the others didn't change roles, I assume this one's the only Brawler?
Correct. And it's piloted by one Sang-wei Jason Zaklan, as part of the Youling Zhanshi mini-campaign. Normally he'd be just watching the arena fights on Solaris VII, but in this scenario he unwittingly winds up torn between his orders and secrecy as a Death Commando and the emerging rebellion on Homestead.

Ti Ts'ang TSG-9H (Jason) MUL entry
This one's more of a weapons array swap than an overhaul. The left-torso ER mediums are gone, and the rest of the ER mediums are replaced with medium pulses. The TAG is swapped for an ER medium, and the ER smalls become small pulses. All additional heat sinks are dropped, leaving it at +11 heat on a jumping alpha.

Those medium pulses might be more appropriate for an in-your-face brawler like the Ti Ts'ang was meant to be.
AS seems to agree with you - not only does it switch roles from Skirmisher to Brawler, it actually gets a bit of a sidegrade - sure, it loses 1 point of Medium damage and TAG, but its PV cost drops to 36, slotting it into the 7 PV/skill upgrade region. It's a bit of a one-off, though, so making use of it might be a problem.
Back in CBT play, the same story happens - its BV2 drops down to 1602 (Dossier) / 1641 (MUL), making it the most affordable of the Ti Ts'angs.

And that's all of them. But how do you pilot one (or, on the flipside, deal with one)?
That's the cue for the last section of this MOTW.

Tactics

When it comes to fielding a Ti Ts'ang, you must know one thing: the enemy will most likely make it a priority target. The fear of the 24-point melee strike is primal, especially when it's on a frame that moves as fast as a 3025 Jenner does. The moment your enemy finds a Ti Ts'ang running around, you can expect them to make some effort to stay away from them - or, failing that, focusing fire on them.

Make this your advantage. Play on their fear to corral them into places where the rest of your team can make their lives difficult. Take advantage of the initiative system to claim favorable terrain, or threaten a deadly response to the enemy's attempts to do so. If you're playing double-blind, never reveal its location except to remind them - with a TSM-enhanced axe strike - of its existence. It may seem like a waste of precious BV, but the war of the mind and the war of the tabletop are linked to each other. The strength of your force is as much as your enemy thinks it is.

Then, when you engage the enemy properly, ensure that as much as possible you have  these three things: a clear path to your chosen victim's melee range, limited LOS to other enemies, and a clear escape route. The loss of one of these things is not fatal, but know the risk of doing so - the Ti Ts'ang is a big investment, and the enemy knows it. Aim for the rear or a weakened side; you have the maneuverability to get in there from various angles. Never give them a fair shot - you have the ability to force a +3 or better TMM at all times; that is your secondary defense after hard cover and (lack of) sightlines.

It may be tempting to let it stay in there and deliver more strikes, but the longer it lingers in the middle of the enemy's group, the more likely it is that they manage to cripple its ability to move. Dart in and out of combat as much as possible; keep them guessing, take advantage of your TAG (if available) to deliver artillery strikes from friendlies behind cover. Capellans do not play fair, so don't.

On the flipside, these very qualities make the Ti Ts'ang a poor choice for holding a favorable position - or assaulting one without diverting the enemy's attention. If you are faced with one, cover each other's backs with overlapping sightlines and stand your ground. Open fields force the Ti Ts'ang to weather the barrage to even do anything of note; make the approach to your team as cover-free as possible. Make its reliance on maneuverability and high TMMs its downfall - pulse lasers, targeting computers, and precision ammo force it to make use of its armor far more than it can take in the long term.

If you have your own fast jumpers, pursue it with all haste - both the Wraith TR1 and the Uziel UZL-8S in particular make for excellent interdictors that can evade the non-pulse lasers the Ti Ts'ang often employs. Should it decide to be elusive, stay resolute; one unit missing from the enemy's line is one less unit trading blows with your mechs. Use that numerical advantage and crush the Ti Ts'ang's allies. Having a probe in your team helps as well, especially in double-blind; no Ti Ts'ang variant has ECM to jam said electronics, and having that denies them the ability to fade from view without completely disengaging.

Above all, however, prepare for losses - the very nature of its role and arsenal means that you are at the mercy of RNG if it is played well. Though it can be considered a great success if you manage to keep a Ti Ts'ang away from melee, do not panic if it does land an axe strike - more often than not, it has played a risky gamble to be there in the first place. Make it pay the price.

In AS play, the change in how turns play out alters how the Ti Ts'ang is approached. The approach phase is played similarly to CBT - save it for last to draw enemy fire away from itself - but once you've delivered your close-in strike, it instead wants to move first. Not doing so leaves it vulnerable to the entire enemy team taking aim at it before it can dart back to cover.

Side note, the No-Dachi NDA-2KO with its pulse laser array and Sword would most likely tear apart a Ti Ts'ang in a head-on fight. This isn't a failing of the latter; rather, it is a sign that the latter should stay away from such designs and wear them down with ER medium lasers, Arrow IVs, and allies' weapons.

Outro

Whew! This has taken the better part of an entire day to type, and I still have more to talk about (given the right prompt). It's always fun to get into details about a much-celebrated unit, especially when there is so much more to learn. Looking forward to your opinions on this melee mech par excellence, and how it compares to its contemporaries in the BV and PV department.

A big thanks to the people editing the Sarna BattleTechWiki, the Master Unit List, and to GreekFire (MOTW Men Shen) and Scotty (MOTW/ASMOTW Banshee) for inspiring much of how this MOTW is written. On the shoulders of these giants do I stand, and stand proud I will for the benefit of all.

Wrangler

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #1 on: 18 September 2021, 11:31:48 »
Nice well thought out and explained article, Questia.   

I personally Ti Ts'ang original model, i was able to get people to join BattleTech tabletop with it.  During the game, i was able get our two legged fusion powered locomotive at full TSM and I cleaved a medium mech in half which impressed them enough to think this maybe game to play more.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #2 on: 18 September 2021, 15:45:59 »
While something with heat targeting problems might be helped by pulse lasers, like the NDA gets, I am glad it keeps the distinction for the base models.

IMO, it is the hatchet mech that does it right- I do not like the hatchet on the Axeman, Hatchetman, or even Berserker though it gets a bit of a pass b/c it is bigger and can absorb damage on the way in along with having MASC.  Or any of the other melee mechs that are slower than the No Daichi.  You want to be able to cross the short ranges on a target as fast as possible, and the TSM adjusted speed does that for the Capellan brawler.
Colt Ward
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Getz

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #3 on: 18 September 2021, 15:47:48 »
I have a friend who really likes Ti Ts'angs.  Accordingly I have learned to hate the damn things.

This article is surprising aptly timed as I have just given him the go ahead to select one as his ride in a Solaris 7 themed RPG I will be starting in a couple of weeks.

I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

nckestrel

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #4 on: 18 September 2021, 16:59:06 »


Testing embed from MUL.

EDIT: Is there something else you were trying to embed from the MUL?

Ah, trying to do the AS cards?  Not specifically intentional as far as I know.
« Last Edit: 18 September 2021, 17:02:05 by nckestrel »
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #5 on: 18 September 2021, 19:05:50 »
That Hatchet still deals 12 damage - aim that on the Punch table and you have a 1-in-6 chance to decapitate people at +3 to hit.

Wait, you can aim melee weapons for punch-hit?  I didn't know that!  is it a standard, "+3 to hit, then roll a 6-8 and you hit on that table" kinda thing?  Where's the rule? (and that's off the piloting, not gunnery, right?)

and fun write up!  i've -thought- about using these cats before, but never have!  maybe I will!  :thumbsup: :)

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #6 on: 18 September 2021, 21:09:05 »
It's in Total War, page 146. :thumbsup:
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #7 on: 19 September 2021, 00:00:11 »
EDIT: Is there something else you were trying to embed from the MUL?

Ah, trying to do the AS cards?  Not specifically intentional as far as I know.
Yup, it's specifically the AS cards that I wanted to grab.

Wait, you can aim melee weapons for punch-hit?  I didn't know that!  is it a standard, "+3 to hit, then roll a 6-8 and you hit on that table" kinda thing?  Where's the rule? (and that's off the piloting, not gunnery, right?)
I'm not sure if it's a +3 to hit or a +4; I assumed the latter and said +3 because the Hatchet sits at base -1 to hit. And yes, it scales off of Piloting.

Incidentally, I think that makes melee-focused pilots particularly resistant to PSRs. As someone who finds PSRs a momentum-killer no matter the unit, I appreciate that cushion a lot.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #8 on: 19 September 2021, 01:09:03 »
While something with heat targeting problems might be helped by pulse lasers, like the NDA gets, I am glad it keeps the distinction for the base models.

IMO, it is the hatchet mech that does it right- I do not like the hatchet on the Axeman, Hatchetman, or even Berserker though it gets a bit of a pass b/c it is bigger and can absorb damage on the way in along with having MASC.  Or any of the other melee mechs that are slower than the No Daichi.  You want to be able to cross the short ranges on a target as fast as possible, and the TSM adjusted speed does that for the Capellan brawler.

It's also one of the rare mechs that DOES hit that sweet spot for tonnage vs hatchet tonnage..  15/30/45/60/75/90 tons with a 1/2/3/4 or 5 ton hatchet..

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #9 on: 19 September 2021, 02:06:45 »
I could be wrong, but I believe there are two versions of the mini. The one in "Liao Heavy/Assault Lance Pack" is the jason, with no lasers in the left torso. Other entries on camospecs have the 3060 loadout of lasers.

This can certainly be a fun mech, though very dependant on initiative in small fights.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #10 on: 19 September 2021, 15:39:45 »
It's also one of the rare mechs that DOES hit that sweet spot for tonnage vs hatchet tonnage..  15/30/45/60/75/90 tons with a 1/2/3/4 or 5 ton hatchet..

The problem is that the hatchet tonnage sweet spots aren't the only break points that matter.  There's a really big punch threshold at 55 tons with TSM and 60 tons isn't so far above it that the axe looks all that great. 

Two 12 point punches is an 11/36 chance (multiplied by the odds of hitting) chance of killing whatever mech you're fighting unless it has hardened armor or a torso mounted cockpit.  Doesn't matter if it's an unscathed Dire Wolf or a pirate Stinger held together with duck tape and bailing wire. 

The hatchet creates a bunch of target thresholds.  What size mech will lose an arm?  What size mech will the hatchet go internal on a fresh side torso?  What size mech will lose a leg? (If your target will lose a leg to your hatchet you probably should be using a kick so that the location table has no impact on your chance to cripple).  Those are going to define what size opponents your hatchet is best against.  If they're small enough you can take off a leg you want to kick. If they're large enough you can't take off an arm or go internal on a side torso and your hatchet is at least 22 damage your fists are 24 and you want to punch. 

Things change a bit if you can't have two fists (maybe you're putting a hatchet on an omnimech and want something omni-actuator excluded in the other arm or maybe you want a 10 crit weapon that isn't split with the adjacent side torso) but I think most hatchet mechs either have hands on both arms or no reason they couldn't have hands on both arms or the only reason they can't have hands on both arms is the crits taken up by the hatchet itself. 

A 24 point hatchet is just above the pugilism sweet spot and even though it's a hatchet mass sweet spot I'm just not sure it's worth it from a design standpoint. 

If you're looking at official designs only there may not be a good TSM pugilist for the Ti Ts'ang to compare to with, but if you're looking at official designs only nearly everything is deliberately suboptimal.  Having an optimized hatchet and engine is offset by a deliberate design misfeature somewhere else.  Either the heat management system is overbuilt and inefficient or the designer thought that using a hatchet at all was unoptimized enough. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #11 on: 19 September 2021, 17:42:47 »
there may not be a good TSM pugilist for the Ti Ts'ang to compare to with,

Quasimodo? It's slower, but it certainly has the same mission profile.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #12 on: 19 September 2021, 21:50:39 »
Quasimodo? It's slower, but it certainly has the same mission profile.
Funny that you mention the Quasimodo, though. It doesn't usually come into picture as a TSM mech - usually the VSPL array and the Blue Shield take center stage. But when you think about it, somewhat inflexible heat control aside it's a punch-happy brawler and a terrifyingly accurate pulseboat.

With other mechs in mind, I think one of the areas the Ti Ts'ang suffers in is BV2 - compare the Quasimodo's 1575 BV2 price tag to the TSG-9H's 1880. 'course, that gap is partly because pulse lasers are undervalued and the Ti Ts'ang pays for the extra +1 to running TMM under TSM.

I'd run analysis on designs within the BV range and compare the Ti Ts'ang to those, but that may be for another time.


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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #13 on: 19 September 2021, 23:32:29 »
The problem is that the hatchet tonnage sweet spots aren't the only break points that matter.  There's a really big punch threshold at 55 tons with TSM and 60 tons isn't so far above it that the axe looks all that great. 

Plus as the article mentions, jump jets are now a full ton per vice half a ton if you kept it as a 55 ton mech...
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #14 on: 20 September 2021, 02:31:36 »
Regarding the efficiency of the Ti Ts'ang in construction terms: I think it's one of those weird cases where the inefficiency of it in CBT translates to an edge in its favor in AS. It's the same deal with the Neanderthal - going slightly overweight means that they enter the size class directly above, and in so doing get another point of melee damage.

The Ti Ts'ang could still double-punch, but for some reason the chassis dropped the left arm's hand. It's still possible, mind, just harder to land both hits and you have to keep in mind that you can't use about half of your lasers.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #15 on: 20 September 2021, 20:12:40 »
Regarding the efficiency of the Ti Ts'ang in construction terms: I think it's one of those weird cases where the inefficiency of it in CBT translates to an edge in its favor in AS. It's the same deal with the Neanderthal - going slightly overweight means that they enter the size class directly above, and in so doing get another point of melee damage.

The Ti Ts'ang could still double-punch, but for some reason the chassis dropped the left arm's hand. It's still possible, mind, just harder to land both hits and you have to keep in mind that you can't use about half of your lasers.

Oh, the reason it drops the left hand is that it's completely crit packed.  This relates to the inefficiency of the TSM tuning suite which is perhaps related to a writer thinking old fashioned 1 heat small lasers must have gone out of production.  Even if disabling heat sinks was either an optional rule or not yet a thing at all when this was published it could save a crit for the left fist if it used more laser types. 

EDIT: Nevermind.  I looked again and there are open crits in the center torso and head and endosteel is fungible so there's absolutely no reason not to have a left fist. 
« Last Edit: 20 September 2021, 22:12:08 by Atarlost »

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #16 on: 20 September 2021, 22:56:28 »
It's supposed to be a TSM/axe showpiece. Unless I mis-remember, the first such showpiece.

It isn't supposed to be perfect, but fun and a bit crazy. It was probably also supposed to quiet fans whining "why no axe/tsm?"

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #17 on: 20 September 2021, 23:03:02 »
I was surprised that Mulan was represented by a Hitotsume Kozo and not a Ti Tsang for the cultural reference for XTRO: Royal Fantasy.  I did end up kitbashing both though.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #18 on: 22 September 2021, 11:45:40 »
It's supposed to be a TSM/axe showpiece. Unless I mis-remember, the first such showpiece.

It isn't supposed to be perfect, but fun and a bit crazy. It was probably also supposed to quiet fans whining "why no axe/tsm?"

It is a very, very good and very overpowered for its era. Something fast enough to be able to get close and then deliver a 24 point hit with the axe or (maybe even worse) a 24 point hit in the legs with a kick. Unless you have infernos or plasmas it is very, very dangerous. The JJ are great to keep units pinned in bad terrain and its ground speed achieves the same effect in open terrain.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #19 on: 24 September 2021, 10:59:16 »
There's a really big punch threshold at 55 tons with TSM and 60 tons isn't so far above it that the axe looks all that great. 

Two 12 point punches is an 11/36 chance (multiplied by the odds of hitting) chance of killing whatever mech you're fighting unless it has hardened armor or a torso mounted cockpit.  Doesn't matter if it's an unscathed Dire Wolf or a pirate Stinger held together with duck tape and bailing wire.

This is why most melee weapons, including hatchets, don’t make sense on mechs with TSM above 50 tons.  It’s a waste of tonnage when you get two, high-probability, head-capping punch attacks per turn for free.  The newer Exhumer -3P takes advantage of this.

That said, hatchets and melee weapons will remain a fixture in the BT universe, and the Ti T’sang is one of the better, more optimized designs within the group of melee weapon mechs that are, by definition, somewhat suboptimal.

 
« Last Edit: 24 September 2021, 11:00:54 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #20 on: 24 September 2021, 11:09:28 »
The benefit of melee weapons on larger mechs is that if you don't actually want to kill the opposing pilot, you can try to swing for the legs without risking a fall if you miss. Coupled with the above-average speed you often get with TSM machines, and big axe murderers are a great way to get ahold of a lot of medium and light mech salvage, and pilots to ransom.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #21 on: 24 September 2021, 11:13:13 »
And you can fire arm weapons, which also lets you protect your flank on the way in.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #22 on: 24 September 2021, 11:16:53 »
The combination of jump jets, TSM and hatchet on the Ti Ts'ang has made my life miserable in urban combats with fog of war (MegaMek). Damn things kept jumping behind and ax'ing me in the back, and then jumping back out.  The first I knew of them and two 'mechs were crippled. Suddenly my entire force felt under siege, turtle up. It didn't need more optimization in order to scare me to death.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #23 on: 24 September 2021, 11:29:16 »
Yeah . . . it is a easy mech to be good with, but when played with elan & finesse the mech can be great.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #24 on: 25 September 2021, 18:58:18 »
The benefit of melee weapons on larger mechs is that if you don't actually want to kill the opposing pilot, you can try to swing for the legs without risking a fall if you miss. Coupled with the above-average speed you often get with TSM machines, and big axe murderers are a great way to get ahold of a lot of medium and light mech salvage, and pilots to ransom.

That would be a roll on the kick table at -2 with a kick or at a net +2 with an axe.  If you miss with the kick you might fall and your opponent will get another turn.  If you miss with the axe your opponent will just get another turn, but you're a lot more likely to miss with the axe.  I don't know that that's a great deal for the axe.  Legs also have pretty high structure so you probably aren't taking one down in one hit unless it has disproportionately low leg armor.  A kick that connects means the target has to roll to stay standing and if you wouldn't have them auto-falling from losing a leg that's another reason that the axe is more likely to leave them standing longer. 

I think that if there's a use case for hatchets it's probably bullying little stuff.  At 24 points you will take out any non-CT location on any light mech that doesn't have hardened armor or go internal anywhere on anything up to a 45 tonner with the default armor layout.  No mucking about with taking penalties to aim, if you out-mass them by that much and have an axe you just need to get into melee and hit once and then even if they get away from you they're too ripped up to get near anything with a decent laser or SRM tube count.  A 70 ton TSM axe mech would go internal everywhere on max armor 55 tonners with default armor layout and remove any non-CT non-leg location up to max armor 45 tonners with default armor layout.  There are enough 55 tonners this seems desirable.  An 80 ton axe mech starts to autopenetrate 60 tonners, but to get a decent melee mech speed you're using a 400 rated engine so that is perhaps overly ambitious. 

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #25 on: 26 September 2021, 11:10:26 »
Used the standard variant in a game yesterday because of this article, and it was killing the heck outta things until it caught a Heavy-peeper to the face.  whatcha gonna do, tho, amirite?  :) :)
but thanks to the OP: I hadn't thought to bring one before, and now I'll be keeping it in steady rotation for in-close scenarios.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #26 on: 26 September 2021, 20:02:34 »
Not to dump on the picture, but i noticed that hatchet looks like it was drawn backwards.  The bigger side of the blade is facing towards the mech than out.
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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #27 on: 26 September 2021, 20:04:15 »
Perspective.  The blades are the same size.

Not to dump on the picture, but i noticed that hatchet looks like it was drawn backwards.  The bigger side of the blade is facing towards the mech than out.

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Re: Mech of the Week: Ti Ts'ang TSG-series
« Reply #28 on: 27 September 2021, 07:17:04 »
The side to the enemy should imo, always be bigger... 
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