Author Topic: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?  (Read 14172 times)

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
So, yeah.

While the forums have been down, I've been doing some thinking (and working on a modular, sub-$10 river and lake system that only took me maybe 10 hours of work and has enough water for four or five tables, but that's for tomorrow), and I think I may have an oddball, interesting solution to the lack of light 'mech usefulness, and making 'Mechs king of the battlefield, and it relies on tiered initiative.

That is to say, that more mobile, flexible units have to move last, and get to shoot first.

The movement phase rules would look something like,

Quote
Each player rolls for initiative, the losing side selecting and moving a unit first. Both sides moves their units in this order, alternating until there are no units of that type left, then moving on to the next type. If one side runs out of that type of unit (eg, has no infantry while the other side has five platoons), then the other side finishes moving all of the units of that type until there are none left. Then both players move on to the next type.

1) Infantry/Battle Armor
2) Vehicles (except VTOLs)
3) VTOLS/Conventional Fighters/Aerospace Fighters
4) Assault Battlemechs
5) Heavy Battlemechs
6) Medium Battlemechs
7) Light Battlemechs

The logic behind this being that infantry are slowest to react, being composed of large teams, so should be the FIRST so every other unit can see what they're doing. Vehicles, having several crewmembers, are also slow to react. Battlemechs, having just one crewmember who's directly linked to his 'Mech, are the fastest, with light, mobile 'Mechs being king of reaction time.

It also makes the reaction phase more important, because now you have to torso-turn or turret-turn to bring mobile lights into your view.

It does wreak havoc with the swarming infantry rules, though. Haven't played much with BA or infantry, so I can't call what changes should be made though...


One POSSIBILITY I'm thinking of is using the same system but reversed in order for shooting, with an additional caveat: any damage done takes effect AFTER all units of that type have fired.

For example, you've got an Awesome and a Locust. They have two Javelins. The shooting goes Javelin, Locust, Javelin - and all damage takes effect, so if they critted the Awesome and removed a PPC, it wouldn't be able to fire that PPC once its own turn rolled around.

I dunno. I'm still ponderating this, especially the second part - giving lights the movement advantage would probably be more than enough. It would be a HUGE shakeup in the rules.

What do you think?

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #1 on: 26 January 2011, 02:50:20 »
The basic idea has promise, as shown by the success of the Leviathans ruleset (all hail the Worktroll!  And Herb), but I feel that for the BattleTech ruleset, instead of a flat "THIS UNIT MUST MOVE FIRST" scheme, it would be more advisable to use a modifier to initiative based on weight class.  After all, it's not really fair to the 2/3 Annihilator pilot if she has to ALWAYS AND FOREVER lose the initiative against a Light 'Mech.  Related to that, it also doesn't follow that said Annihilator will ALWAYS win initiative to a blindingly fast VTOL.

That said, I think that the modifier should be related to MP, perhaps in the same fashion BV is calculated, and applied to the unit individually.

Alternate proposal:  Allow winning intiative to decide whether to move first or last. 
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #2 on: 26 January 2011, 04:56:19 »
I dunno. I feel that would be more complicated (in a game that's plenty complicated as it is!) and let's face it, there NEEDS to be a reason to not use so damned many assault 'Mechs. As it is, the only downside to using assaults is that they don't move fast; which is hardly crippling considering people usually don't play on more than 2x2 mapsheets at most (usually 1x2).

With this approach, it favors tactical use of different weights; a group of heavies might outflank several assaults, but if the assaults are escorted by appropriate lights they could expose themselves to rear shots from the lights and barrages from the assaults.

VTOLS might possibly be in the Light 'Mech tier, and battlearmor could go with assault 'Mechs, but I'm not entirely sure yet. Haven't had the chance to actually playtest this, been busy with... uhh....

What HAVE I been busy with?

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6605
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2011, 05:55:05 »
Though i can see tiering initiative to make combined arms seem more important, i feel movement of lights (being more likely to be jumpers) is more than adequate for things as is for mech to mech fights.
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

topcat

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Blake save us from combined yawns... err, arms!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2011, 09:24:44 »
Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

Istal_Devalis

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4127
  • Baka! I didnt change my avatar because I like you!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2011, 09:33:54 »
I dont like a strict tiered system.  A good pilot should be able to react better then a mediocre one, even if his machine is a bit on the lumbering side.

Now, a series of bonuses/penalties based on weight?  That I could see.

I think increased scenario play would help get lights into the field more often too.  If you have a Chase scenario, or a recon scenarior, with a minimum speed, it'll make them more prevalent.

Bad_Syntax

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 918
    • Battletech Engineer
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2011, 10:03:49 »
Want to make lights useful again?

Stop playing with awesome pilots.  Start playing with 4/5 pilots, or even 5/6, as that is what most pilots are rated.  Veteran/Elite units are far less common.

You could also use double blind rules.

You could also use cheap lights, like the 500 BV ones, and use them to scout/spot for your LRM/TAG equipped units.

You could also use light mechs with *really* long ranged weapons, and keep them in the long range band moving at top speed.

Or the opposite, use very close range light mechs, use the terrain, and only expose yourself when you have a perfect shot.  Jump jets are helpful with this one.

Pulse/Targeting computers still suck for lights, but with average pilots they'll last much longer.

Bad Syntax
Battletech Engineer
Disclaimer:  Anything I post here, or anywhere else, can freely be used by anybody, anywhere, for any purposes without any compenstation to or recognition of myself.

foxbat

  • Tunnel Rat
  • Global Moderator
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3095
    • classicbattletech.fr
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2011, 10:19:14 »


I'm subscribing to what you posted 100% : BT is more fun when you have 4/5, or even 5/6 pilots, and a lot of units that would have ben useless shine again. This of course leaves pulse lasers, tarcomps and precision ammo, but these have drawbacks too. Our late Albatros (dang, how I miss our msn chats!  :() had once proposed to run a MM tournament with pilots pushed back to gunnery 4 if they used precision enhancing weapons : ie, a pulse boat would be run by a G6 pilot to make for the -2 bonus, and with of coursse BV adjusted accordingly. This never took off, but the issue is indeed valid.
Hanse Davion is my shepherd.
We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender! Winston Churchill, June 1940

IndyRI

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 891
  • Is it really still snowing?
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #8 on: 26 January 2011, 10:55:34 »
Well, the idea behind the system shows promise. But I have to agree with Scotty in the sense that it is very limiting in a game where tactical fredom is practically a commandment.

While an initiative bonus weighted towards the faster force would make sense regarding bringing light mechs back to a usable level, a hard initiative order like the one you're suggesting would just be incredibly limiting. Assault mechs would still have the firepower and armor advantage, but having to basically get your rear armor sniped at every single turn would start to wear out very quickly. And while this would certainly make lights more prominent, I doubt it will do that nearly as much as it will make mediums and heavies even more common. A player might not want to select an assault due to the danger of almost always going first, but selecting a heavy or medium allows one to at the very least achieve a better compromise of initiative vs. combat effectiveness than a light would have.

And on top of all that, if the theory here is that faster mechs move first, why should a 2/3 Urbie move AFTER a 5/8 Timber Wolf? Or a 4/6 Vindie moving AFTER a 5/8 Falconer? It's a good start, but it's just a little too limiting for my tastes as is.
HEIRS OF AMARIS - An AU Setting for Classic Battletech

Come and see. Comments welcome.
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=757.msg15033

Battlemech Designs Galore
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=840.0

mgctch

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #9 on: 26 January 2011, 11:27:55 »
Give the side with the most light mechs a +2 initiative die roll modifier; those with the most medium mechs a +1 (those with the most assaults a -1?).  Simple, fast, not unbalancing and provides an incentive to use lighter units without destroying the ability to use assault mechs.

Patrick Dupree

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Marik Milita rules!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #10 on: 26 January 2011, 12:52:34 »
Putting Battlearmor and Infantry on position 1 makes AntiMech Attacks unplayable.
Infantry must move after the Mech to do this kind of attacks.
Patrick Dupree
2nd Free Worlds Legionnaires {The Stygians}
The advancement and diffusion of knowledge are the only true guardians of liberty. 
-James Madison

OmniscientQ

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 60
    • MegaMek / BattleTech IRC Channel
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #11 on: 26 January 2011, 13:39:18 »
I've not seen any problems with light 'mechs being under-represented. In a one-off game, yeah, I can imagine some players just wanting to run assaults all the time. But lights definitely have their uses. As a fast spotter for a C3 network, or as ECM disruptors of hostile C3 networks, they're unmatched. Harassment is still perfectly viable in BT, regardless of what rules you're using. When your opponent closes with his assaults, your lights can easily skirt around behind with a few LRM launchers or large lasers (Or even with packs of SRM's, though it's certainly more dangerous.) Force your opponent to turn his back to at least one of your 'mechs.

Light 'mechs are still very powerful. They're just less forgiving of rookie mistakes. They don't really need an init bonus to justify their place in my units.
Q v2.0, Cluster Violet-6
End Transmission

Marlin

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 114
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #12 on: 26 January 2011, 14:14:40 »
This idea is interesting, but yes, a 5/8 Cougar should not be able to outmanoeuvre a Timber Wolf.

It should have to do with the actual speed and the actual Pilot quality. And yes, against a green or even Regular force of IS, a standard Clan light Mech can do many great things.

Like, kill them all.


:D
Get to know the ultimate combined arms experience for the Battletech universe! See link below.

http://forum.mechlivinglegends.net/index.php/board,105.0.html

Avatar by Bain.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #13 on: 26 January 2011, 14:43:16 »
Using individual initiative, modifiers for weight and speed might work, but it's a lot of extra info to track: who moves next?

Any system that uses either weight or speed of a few units to affect the entire side is prone to exploitation: taking 8 Savannah Masters (for both speed and weight bonuses to initiative) to go with that lance of Assault Mechs.

Always having one class of unit move first pretty much limits them to a fire support role; otherwise the rule change would instantly render that unit type "useless".  No thanks.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #14 on: 26 January 2011, 14:45:20 »
Quote
Using individual initiative, modifiers for weight and speed might work, but it's a lot of extra info to track: who moves next?

If you're only applying modifiers, it's no more complicated than applying the modifiers directly to the initiative roll.  The only problem comes if you're not playing by Individual Initiative rules.  If you aren't, then perhaps the tiered initiative system would work decently, but individual works very well for this sort of thing without making it feel really contrived.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MemphisMark

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 166
    • The Battletech Zone
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #15 on: 26 January 2011, 15:11:26 »
There is a difference between good, sound ideas and ideas that sound good. This is unfortunately in the latter category. Like others have said, I can see an initiative roll modifier based on how many light mechs you have, but a tiered system like that just won't work. You need the tactical flexibility to sometimes move your lights first, and assaults last instead of the other way around in your system.

Keep working on it, you have a wonderful idea, it just has to be tweaked a bit to do the best it can!


Don't make me use the haggis on you! - Wolflord

If a man knows not, and knows not that he knows not, shun him.
If a man knows not, and knows that he knows not, teach him.
If a man knows, and knows that he knows, follow him.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #16 on: 26 January 2011, 15:14:34 »
Quick Poll:  How many people reading this thread have ever used Individual Intiative?

Modifiers based on weight class and vehicle type would not be hard to implement.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #17 on: 26 January 2011, 15:23:33 »
I've seen and played games with "individual initiative", only once with initiative die rolls, but several times with a playing card assigned to each unit.  In every case with 4 or more players, getting the proper player to respond when it's their unit's move caused a major slowdown of the game.  It was a great idea, but didn't work very well in practice; not totally broken, but certainly not an improvement.

mensa12345

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • FedCom Forever!!!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #18 on: 26 January 2011, 16:25:05 »
I don't really think it's necessary.  I think light mechs are plenty effective now.  As a practical matter, I tend to move them last when alternating movement, so effectively they go last anyway.  Having them always move last would end the assault mech.  It would be one backshot after another until death.  What would really help would be if megamek had a rolling mapsheets option.  That's what I used to play with back when I had the time to play live.  Now, it's like every battle takes place in a box canyon, giving heavier mechs and vehicles a huge advantage.
That which is Seen cannot be Unseen.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #19 on: 26 January 2011, 16:27:57 »
I've seen and played games with "individual initiative", only once with initiative die rolls, but several times with a playing card assigned to each unit.  In every case with 4 or more players, getting the proper player to respond when it's their unit's move caused a major slowdown of the game.  It was a great idea, but didn't work very well in practice; not totally broken, but certainly not an improvement.

Use dice, it's easier.  Reroll ties.  If a player doesn't notice it's his/her turn in one minute, skip that unit and move on.  Players learn to pay attention QUICKLY like that.

It also permanently ends that thing called init sinking, which while perfectly valid, is entirely too frustrating.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Bad_Syntax

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 918
    • Battletech Engineer
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #20 on: 26 January 2011, 17:01:10 »
I've used a deck of cards in other games and it works great.

And its really fun if you don't know the sequence before hand.

And it works great for 1 unit at a time, without rolling bunches of dice. (just mark 7 Hearts or whatever on your record sheet).
Battletech Engineer
Disclaimer:  Anything I post here, or anywhere else, can freely be used by anybody, anywhere, for any purposes without any compenstation to or recognition of myself.

Caturix

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 197
  • Ex Astris, Scientia.
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #21 on: 26 January 2011, 18:04:13 »
Making a new system is a lot of work,
thanks for putting efforts into creating something for the community.

However, I don't think I would appreciate this kind of Initiative:

I never use Individual Initiative, as it is so frustrating when you can't plan any move 'cause you don't know in which order you'll be forced to move each mech. I never have fun when this system is used.
If tiered initiative was to be used, some players would play assault mechs lances versus assault mechs lances; as it happens now. So, no change there.
As it has been said earlier, if such a system was used, it would be the death of swarm attacks from BA. And certainly BA and Infantry would seldom be used outside cities, if at all.

I think that speed in itself, and nimbleness are enough to allow some flexibility in the choice of which unit to move first.

Lights are, universe-wise, useful, that's why they are plentiful. Depending on the scenario you're playing they are invaluables.
If some players never, or rarely use them, no system will change that. Because if they do choose Assault/Heavy mechs over Lights/Mediums, it is because they want to have bigger, more numerous guns, and tougher machines. Because they have more fun beating on each other like boxers until only one stays up.
Others would rather fight like duellists, with foils where agility and speed are of utmost importance. Where the little cuts surgically done are victories in themselves.

I don't see the need to "force" the first category of players to play as the second ones do or face grievous penalties on the battlefield.

Players who would use the system proposed are most probably already using lights, and finds them useful. Players who don't won't adopt the tiered initiative anyway.
I don't see a need for it.

The actual rules are good enough for me.

I may be wrong, of course.
"The Mechwarrior formerly known as Stenka"

mutantmagnet

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 708
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #22 on: 26 January 2011, 18:41:59 »
Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

MEP

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 161
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #23 on: 26 January 2011, 18:56:46 »
I appreciate the thought that went into this and I'm sure you could house rule it. My basic problem with the premise is similar to what others have already stated. Initiative has nothing to do with speed. Initiative is essentially representative of one side being more alert, prepared or situationally aware than the other. It makes perfect sense that a good pilot, with a clear view of his surroundings and a lot of coffee in his system should have the initiative over the guy who got caught facing the wrong way while reading a porno in his cockpit. It really doesn't make sense that the guy with the faster mech has better initiative, he could still be asleep at the wheel.

If there were going to be modifiers for initiative added to the game, it would make more sense to apply them based on pilot skill, sensor packages, satellite intel or terrain (surprising someone from behind cover or not seeing that armored batallion 100 yards ahead of you because you're cutting your way through thick jungle and they can totally hear you coming).

It just doesn't make sense to tie initiative to speed in my mind.
In the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"

MEP

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 161
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #24 on: 26 January 2011, 19:00:48 »
Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

Actually, your example makes less sense. The Corvette is not reacting, and neither is the Camry. The driver is. One may provide better feedback to the driver than the other, but the fact remains that the car is not doing the driving. Initiative is not about mechs, it's about mechwarriors. If a mech has equipment which gives a pilot a better view of the battle or a heads up about incoming ordinance, then it makes sense that the pilot should gain some kind of initiative bonus from that. But that's sensor packages and bigger windows, not speed.
In the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "I drank what?"

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #25 on: 26 January 2011, 19:20:40 »
*shrug* Well, it was an idea that I was toying with; mostly posted to raise my post count and get rid of that STUPID captcha thing. Didn't realise that so many people would hate it... Heh.

topcat

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Blake save us from combined yawns... err, arms!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #26 on: 26 January 2011, 21:28:02 »
Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

You used a terrible example. A Corvette accelerates  far better than a Camry and that means a Corvette can react better than a Camry in certain situations. Other things that affect reaction is center of gravity (light mechs are far lower to the ground than heavys and assaults) and traction (which probably gives assaults a better reason to have on par reaction abilities)

You're focusing on the car, not the driver.  For instance, put the two up against each other at a drag strip with a trained drag racing driver in the Camry and a middling driver in the Corvette.  When the lights go green, the trained driver is more likely to get the jump on the Corvette, even though the Camry is slower in every possible way.  After the first few feet, the Corvette will likely take over, but the initiative will be seized by the trained driver.  Another example, put a deer in the road in front of them.  All that matters in initiative terms is who goes first.  What happens after that is for other aspects of the game system.

garhkal

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6605
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #27 on: 26 January 2011, 22:23:50 »
SO i could see an init bonus based on piloting diff.. 
Say a 5/6 pilot/gunnery is the base.  They get 1d6 for init.
A 4/5 gets +2
A 3/4 gets +4
A 2/3 gets +6
and a 1/2 gets +8
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

Kovax

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Taking over the Universe one mapsheet at a time
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #28 on: 27 January 2011, 09:29:37 »
The current system is already pretty harsh on Lights whenever the gunnery skills get below "standard" 4/5, and 1/2 pilots make anything under about 50 tons all but pointless.  Speed doesn't help much when it only raises the to-hit numbers to 5 or 6.  At 4 gunnery, speed = armor.  At 2 gunnery skill or less, only heavy armor = heavy enough armor.  Lights and heavy armor are mutually exclusive.

Giving additional initiative advantages for better pilots takes a skewed situation and compounds it.  At that point, it doesn't pay to take a Light 'Mech, because not only will the other guy with the big guns be able to hit you regardless of your modifier, but you probably won't even get a chance for a backshot.

Istal_Devalis

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4127
  • Baka! I didnt change my avatar because I like you!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #29 on: 27 January 2011, 09:51:57 »
If you're using individual iniative (or a variant there of) and want to make it based on pilot skill? Honestly, I'd make it its OWN skill to rival Gunnery and Piloting.  Being able to place yourself in locations to minimize fire or hit rear armor reliably? Worth its weight in gold, especially for light mechs.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25627
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #30 on: 27 January 2011, 15:14:46 »
I've played in games with tired initiative before, and honestly I think it's a terribly idea.  Because winning initiative can have gamechanging effects, going with a tiered system is basically saying "you're screwed" to whoever's on the bottom tier.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Sockmonkey

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 622
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #31 on: 27 January 2011, 16:17:53 »
I'd change the JJ rules a bit. Since a heavy needs twice as much JJ tonnage per jump point as a medium so a light should need half as much JJ tonnage as a medium.
That's it! Challenge the Clans to rock-paper-scissors in 3050! A good portion of the 'Mechs didn't have hands so the Inner Sphere would win!
If I had a nickel for every time I've legged a Warhammer, I could put them in a sock, spin it around and leg another Warhammer.

Kamov

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 425
  • It's time to end this ones and for all
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #32 on: 27 January 2011, 17:44:49 »
Playing with individually rolled initiative is a lot less book-keeping if you have the results stand for a couple turns.  Roll to determine order, and then that order stands for say 5 turns.  Then roll again.  To make it less structured, give each side some tactical rerolls they can call for, to represent pilot skill or commander skill.  Unless you gave them in equal amounts to each side, that would need some balancing, which I am not sure how to do off the top of my head.
(The above writing is entirely my opinion based upon my own incomplete knowledge of life, the universe, and everything beyond it and should be taken as such although I don't want to tell you what to do, because that's your right and your freedom to choose your own opinions and ablah blah blah legalese etc etc)

Fear Factory

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4070
  • Designing the Enemy
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #33 on: 27 January 2011, 20:37:30 »
Move your lights and mediums better.  I prefer them backed by good heavies, and let me tell you, I've never had that much of a problem.  It really depends on what you choose...  but considering trends like the Fire Moth H, move them last.

[rant] IMO, the only reason lights are so "bad" is because people tend to make top-heavy forces all the friggin' time.  Then, these same people use maybe one or two outside of the assault and heavy class, fail, and then find them frail and/or worthless.  Mediums, not as much, but the same situation can apply. [/rant]
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

Col. Chiang

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 190
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #34 on: 27 January 2011, 21:32:05 »
I'd be a big fan of an aggregate individual or team initiative bonus/penalty rather than a tiered system.  Integrating it with BV would be the biggest problem, I should think.  Otherwise, it should be really simple.

Take the gunnery skill, piloting skill, and a modifier based upon walking/cruising MP and the unit's type.  Add them together and divide by three.  Battle armor and infantry divide by two.  Subtract that number from two to get the initiative modifier.  Once you have all of the modifiers for your force, add them together and divide by the number of units to find the unit's initiative modifier (if using standard initiative).  Round all fractions normally.

'Mechs and ASF get a -1 bonus; conventional fighters, VTOLs, and battle armor get no bonus or penalty; conventional vees (other than fighters and VTOLs) get a +1 penalty;  and infantry get a +2 penalty.  For the MP bonus/penaltiy, find the Walking or Cruising MP and use the inverse of the target penalty of a unit moving that speed as a bonus (e.g.: a unit with a Walking MP of 5 would have a -2 bonus).

Whaddya think?

Edit:  altered the number to be subtracted from to make "average" 4/5 pilots in "average" 5/8 'Mechs have no bonuses or penalties.
« Last Edit: 28 January 2011, 01:02:42 by Col. Chiang »

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25565
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #35 on: 27 January 2011, 23:15:52 »
Well, I like tiered initiative ;)

And I think it's a good way to address the problems the FSM was designed to handle (and did not particularly well IMHO) - people padding their forces with cheap initiative sinks. Certainly, the "big battle" playtesting with Leviathans has shown that it does make people think about proper tactics.

One simple solution to the anti-mech swarm problems raised by making Infantry move first - allow any infantry or BA who didn't move in their phase make a "reaction move" following all 'Mech movement given that this move enables them to make said anti-'Mech (or even anti-vehicle) attack. Again, slightly more details to be kept track of, but it's a mechanism familiar to us old board/wargame grognards.

If you wanted to go even more detailed, some options might be:

1) separate by movement rate in, say, bands of 3. Rather than move infantry, then all vees, then all 'Mechs etc, do "units with max 3MP", then "units with max 6MP", then "units with max 9MP", etc.

2) Or go really Star Fleet Battles impulse phase crazy, and add the max MP to your initiative roll - lower move before higher. So Fred, with initiative roll 5, has to move his Phoenix Hawk (5+9=14) before Joe who rolled 10 moves his Vindicator (10+6=16).

Or come and have a nice game of Leviathans  ;D
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #36 on: 29 January 2011, 17:41:39 »
So you're talking about a "holding initiative" style thing for the infantry, much like in Shadowrun? Hmmm, interesting... the only problem is that allowing held initiative for everything would essentially destroy the system.

What about making infantry move last, even after light 'Mechs?

Or... Hey, what about making Anti-Mech attacks part of the MOVEMENT phase? ie, infantry move, resolve an anti-mech attack, then the 'Mech can move away or not? Since AM attacks replace a shooting attack anyway, I don't think it'd be any big loss to resolve it right then and there.

But  hey, if Worktroll likes it, it just needs tweaking to be fairer. The idea of movement bands controlling initiative rather than weight is a bit complicated, but not bad... something like,

1) 1-5 max MP move
2) 6-8 max MP move
3) 9-12 max MP move
4) 13-15 max MP move
5) 16+ max MP move

I must admit, I'm NOT a fan of individual initiatives; I want the game to play more smoothly and intuitively, NOT less. The max MP tiered initiative actually seems intuitive and easy to play. May have to test it out next time I get some folks together.


For the folks who say "It would destroy the assault 'mech!" that's because you're not thinking tactically. It means you'd have to play them more cautiously instead of just recklessly charging forward and leaving your back armor exposed, as well as having escorting lighter mechs instead of just a lance of Fafnirs. However, the tiered initiative by max MP would allow things like the Berserker to still retain an advantage. Hrm... anyone ever done a MASC'd up Charger variant?

serene void

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #37 on: 31 January 2011, 18:44:35 »
One POSSIBILITY I'm thinking of is using the same system but reversed in order for shooting, with an additional caveat: any damage done takes effect AFTER all units of that type have fired.

For example, you've got an Awesome and a Locust. They have two Javelins. The shooting goes Javelin, Locust, Javelin - and all damage takes effect, so if they critted the Awesome and removed a PPC, it wouldn't be able to fire that PPC once its own turn rolled around.

I dunno. I'm still ponderating this, especially the second part - giving lights the movement advantage would probably be more than enough. It would be a HUGE shakeup in the rules.

I don't like this second aspect at all. It feels like taking the mistake some people make about resolving declared fire right away, having the target declare and resolve their own fire with all the damage already applied, and compounding it. The Fire Phase of the game is simply too abstract for things like that, in my opinion. If you want to go for things like that I feel that you'd need to make everything far more detailed to keep things fair.

Using that as is, a pack of Lights could be perfectly capable of stomping a heavier 'Mech into the ground without it being able to do anything at all about it, all simply because they are classed as Lights. (And basing that on weight class alone then brings in the silliness of 'Mechs like the Panther and the Hollander having this fire first perk, even against say a Medium that moves at 8/12 or 9/14.)

So you're talking about a "holding initiative" style thing for the infantry, much like in Shadowrun? Hmmm, interesting... the only problem is that allowing held initiative for everything would essentially destroy the system.

If everyone held their initiate then nobody moves. Also simply limit a unit to being able to hold initiative for one tier higher up. If they haven't moved by then, then they are treated as not having moved.

Or perhaps an alternative, make it cost MP to hold initiative. Say 2 or 3 MP? You also have to declare your movement options (walk, run, jump, MASC) the first time you hold initiative.

Quote
What about making infantry move last, even after light 'Mechs?

I like this. Much the same reason why infantry don't have a facing to begin with, the one thing that really is in their favor is the ability to quickly come to a full stop and go in a different direction. When added to their limited MP they still can't really use that to threaten a unit that is paying even a modicum of attention to them.

I'd add an option for a heavier unit to move through a hex occupied by just infantry though. Something akin to a charge, where they just try to power through the hex. Infantry being able to pick the choice of either scattering or holding and performing a weapon attack on the unit doing the charging at range 0.

If I've again forgotten some existing rules for that, just use those of course.

Quote
But  hey, if Worktroll likes it, it just needs tweaking to be fairer. The idea of movement bands controlling initiative rather than weight is a bit complicated, but not bad... something like,

1) 1-5 max MP move
2) 6-8 max MP move
3) 9-12 max MP move
4) 13-15 max MP move
5) 16+ max MP move

Better than just using weight class. Needs more definition though, like where you're taking the MP from. After all, max MP for a turn is only known after a unit declares if it's walking, running, using MASC, and so on, which only happens when they actually get to their turn.

Use something like, base walking MP (after heat effects from the previous turn are taken into account), make the table in increments of 2 or 3, and have extra movement mods (JJ, MASC, active TSM) add a +1 to the rating for the table, perhaps?

ItsTehPope

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1565
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #38 on: 31 January 2011, 19:57:10 »
We've been using card initiative at large games in Cincinnati (ie, any game in Cincinnati outside of pickups) and I've generally driven lighter stuff because I know how to actually use them.

IE: play defensively, know your JOB on the table and what you need to do to support your team.  If you have SG-LRMs or A4 geting ready, your primary concern is getting yourself into a defensible position with the best movement mod possible and start putting a TAG downwind.  If you are carrying BA, get them to their dropoff point and GTFODodge.  If you are a C3 spotter, again, maximize your movement, be defensible and spot for your teammates.

An Owens can be the most dangerous thing on the table when used *correctly*
If you actually care to listen to my thoughts outside of Battletech, find me at www.uselessblot.com

(4:37:55 PM) moonsword134: You're a bastard.
(4:38:11 PM) moonsword134: And so's the talking whiskey monkey who lives in bottles of tequila to give you ideas.

(4:52:52 PM) ShinjoJinturi: simply by having tag on the field, even in a game that appears to not have any lrms or arrows on the board, you can inspire fear

topcat

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 71
  • Blake save us from combined yawns... err, arms!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #39 on: 01 February 2011, 12:37:17 »
If I had to go with an initiative system inclusive of mech agility, I'd probably look at MP before mass.  Smaller mechs use smaller engines, so don't necessarily move faster than a larger mech with a larger engine and equal MP.  Heavier parts require heavier myomers require more power, but if you have equal MP, there is no reason for one mech to be slower than the other.

Thinking on this, is there any reason why an Urbanmech should be faster than a Timber Wolf when it comes to initiative?  IMO, it should be significantly slower if we're taking the ability of the mech to move into consideration as part of initiative.  This makes the XL-engined mechs a little more valuable (not necessarily a bad thing).

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #40 on: 03 February 2011, 13:27:31 »
If you want to make Light mechs useful (not that they are not) then I suggest you try out Quickstrike rules and watch them crush all before them.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

ruleslawyer

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #41 on: 04 February 2011, 16:14:42 »
Speed is speed, reactions are reactions - it's an apples to oranges kind of thing.  Initiative is more about reaction than speed.  If I go from my Camry to a Corvette, it doesn't improve my ability to react, it just means I can drive faster.

Not really. You could stuff a camry engine in a corvette and the corvette would still react quicker. Better steering rack, suspension, etc. I agree that they can be independent though. Nimble and faster are two different things. However mass is really the antithesis of agility.

If you really wanted to make it some what equal, you'd do some sort of staged movement where you'd go movement in a several rounds. Lights move half their MP, then mediums half, them heavies half, then assaults do all of it, then heavies, then mediums, then assaults. It'd end up with lights more nimble and able to react, but give the assaults some hope of tracking them as they move. It'd be a huge time suck though.

GunFodder

  • Guest
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #42 on: 05 February 2011, 18:02:02 »
If you're really set on having the type of mech affect their initiative, and using individual initiative rolls for each unit, might I suggest a much simpler solution?

Just have the movement to-hit modifier from the previous turn become the initiative modifier for the current turn. Afterall, as someone has already mentioned, if you do it by weight class why would a 2/3 Urbanmech have better initiative than a 5/8 Mad Cat?

So, if you moved 6 hexes and had a to-hit modifier of +2, then that becomes the bonus to your initiative. That's it. This way, your mech/speed doesn't automatically rewrite the current initiative system. It just makes it a little easier for more maneuverable mechs to gain the initiative, but that's it.

It's been awhile since I've played, but I'm trying to get back into it. Under standard rules, you roll for initiative by teams, correct?

Col. Chiang

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 190
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #43 on: 05 February 2011, 21:35:32 »
That's right.  The person who won initiative goes second, aternating units, from player to player.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25565
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #44 on: 06 February 2011, 04:40:56 »
If you really wanted to make it some what equal, you'd do some sort of staged movement where you'd go movement in a several rounds. Lights move half their MP, then mediums half, them heavies half, then assaults do all of it, then heavies, then mediums, then assaults. It'd end up with lights more nimble and able to react, but give the assaults some hope of tracking them as they move. It'd be a huge time suck though.

It's called "impulse movement", and (amongst others) the game Star Fleet Battles used (uses?) it. Works best with games where people pre-plot their moves, and can produce both good and occasionally hilarious results. But it's a lot of additional work.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #45 on: 06 February 2011, 05:15:46 »
Yeah, way too much work - my main goal when I play is to streamline play (not simplify, mind you! streamline!), and a tiered init system seems fairly likely to

1) Add tactical value to lighter units that are legendarily frail on a pitched battlefield, while simultaneously reducing the over-reliance on much heavier units.

2) Reduce the effectiveness of non-Battlemech units in favor of Battlemech units, reinforcing their roles as 'Kings of the Battlefield' (and going some way as to explain why someone would shell out for a lance of 'Mechs versus a company of tanks).

3) Clarify the order in which units should be moved, reducing the chance of a 'forgotten' or 'double-moved' unit.

4) Make the game more tactically varied.


Now I will admit my solution is to a problem that doesn't fully exist on most tabletops, but in a straight BV, no FSM modifier, just pound each other til one side withdraws game how many people would pick lights except to fill out points unspent on heavies or assaults? Or would pick mediums at all?

Judging it by walking MP sounds promising... move the lowest MP units first because they're the slowest and most cumbersome, while the fasty-fasty units get to go last. Makes filling up those last few points with say the ERML Dart or Fire Moth seem more attractive to counter those backstabbers, eh?


But yeah, that whole firing thing in my initial post is an ill-conceived idea that I would delete, but I find too hilariously overstated to deprive future generations of.  :P

Istal_Devalis

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4127
  • Baka! I didnt change my avatar because I like you!
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #46 on: 07 February 2011, 12:43:26 »
I think if you played more strategic and scenarior based games, the problem with lights would go away.  They're recon/strike units, and should be able to chose when, where, and who they're actually engaging.  Actual game scenarios should be built around that idea, unless you're completely wedded to the idea of 'two equal BV balanced' slugging matches.

iamfanboy

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
Re: A tiered initiative system by weight to make lights useful again?
« Reply #47 on: 07 February 2011, 17:02:27 »
I make scenarios all the time for my group of friends who (rarely) play, but it'd be nice to reach a point in Battletech gameplay similar to Warmachine or 40k where you could say, "OK, 5,000 point games" and have everyone bring stuff to the table. TBH the dependence on scenarios for balance is more of a bad factor than a good one...

One thing that I'd REALLY like to see is the abilities out of AtoW as BV-balanced percentages added on to the 'Mech's value (like adding more gunnery/piloting skill) to bring more variety to the tabletop, but that's another topic altogether.


One thing that people seem to forget about my current plan is the Reaction phase, where one can torso-twist or turret-twist to respond to sudden vulnerabilities. Makes arm-mounted weapons a lot handier...

 

Register