If you could reset the battletech universe to a point, when would that point be?

[Maingunnery]

It would only be a few worlds as the Taurians are very stubborn. All the Periphery citizens are. And when the IS see's what's happening to the Periphery it'll make them wonder when it'll happen to them and then the gloves come off. If the Clans are going to glass us anyway, why not go down fighting?

The IS might hear rumors of Taurus being bombarded after TC used nukes, but by that time they will be fighting the Clans and will know from experience that normal fighting doesn't include bombardment.
The houses also hate the usage of nukes, so they get the sentiment that the TC got what it deserved and would do anything to prevent the usage of nukes on their own side.   

Except Ortillery and WMD didn't cower the people of the Periphery. It made them even more angry. The Taurians especially, but all of them. None of the Periphery appreciated peaceful subservience. They all refused the Star League and chaffed under them. The Clans wouldn't fare any better. Ortillery would be used all over the Periphery because Periphery way of life is opposed to that of the Clans.

The Alliance are pacifists, the MoC will wait for the right time to resist, only the TC might use nukes and lose some planets. 

Someone's got to guard their holdings in the Home Worlds and someone has to protect the supply ships. Those things are going to reduce the number of troops the Clans can use to attack.

From who? Keeping the Dark Caste in check won't require that much.

[SCC]

I would also love to go back to a time when conventional infantry were an afterthought,

This would be a very bad idea. A part from pissing off combined arms players, this would massively exacerbate the problems infantry like being an initiative sink and slowing down game play.

[The_Caveman]

This would be a very bad idea. A part from pissing off combined arms players, this would massively exacerbate the problems infantry like being an initiative sink and slowing down game play.

How about a compromise: vehicles and infantry go back to sucking, but not so much that they become a waste of everyone's time.

BattleTech was supposed to be a game about 'Mechs--and the denim-wearing, mullet-haired people who loved them.

[SCC]

How about a compromise: vehicles and infantry go back to sucking, but not so much that they become a waste of everyone's time.

BattleTech was supposed to be a game about 'Mechs--and the denim-wearing, mullet-haired people who loved them.

The problem is the more you make them suck the lower their BV has to be to compensate (The alternative is force construction systems like in Warhammer, which would probably cause so many problems it's not worth it), and the lower their BV the more of them I can field.

[deathfrombeyond]

This would be a very bad idea. A part from pissing off combined arms players, this would massively exacerbate the problems infantry like being an initiative sink and slowing down game play.

Even though I mentioned it last, I’m more in favor of neutering artillery than I am of neutering infantry.

[RifleMech]

The IS might hear rumors of Taurus being bombarded after TC used nukes, but by that time they will be fighting the Clans and will know from experience that normal fighting doesn't include bombardment.
The houses also hate the usage of nukes, so they get the sentiment that the TC got what it deserved and would do anything to prevent the usage of nukes on their own side.   

They Taurians wouldn't be the only ones being bombarded and the houses are more than willing to use nukes.

The Alliance are pacifists, the MoC will wait for the right time to resist, only the TC might use nukes and lose some planets. 

Actually, civilians were trained in anti-mech tactics during the Reunification War. Since then they've kept an army. Granted the ground forces aren't much but there's no reason to believe that civilians wouldn't resist an invasion. And the Alliance has some of the best aerospace fighter pilots. They did defeat the Clans in canon.

From who? Keeping the Dark Caste in check won't require that much.

Actually, I hadn't thought of them but if the entire Clan military ups and moves to the IS, who'd be around to stop them? Who'd keep the civilians in line?  I was more thinking that rival Clans would use the opportunity to Trial for other's holdings in the Home Worlds. There's also Pirates. The same people who've annoyed the Periphery and Houses for ages. They'd avoid warships but transports are open game and there aren't enough warships to cover everything.

How about a compromise: vehicles and infantry go back to sucking, but not so much that they become a waste of everyone's time.

BattleTech was supposed to be a game about 'Mechs--and the denim-wearing, mullet-haired people who loved them.

You don't have to use vehicles and infantry so there's no reason to make them suck. I would revise how infantry attack though. Combining all the damage and giving them the range of the longest one isn't right. They should have the same number of attacks as other units.

I'd also change mechanized and motorized infantry to be less generic. 

[The_Caveman]

You don't have to use vehicles and infantry so there's no reason to make them suck.

I like vehicles and infantry. I use vehicles and infantry. I still don't want them being on anything near an even footing with 'Mechs. The balance of power changed so much that 'Mechs are no longer the centerpiece, just one piece of a larger puzzle. That is antithetical to the spirit of BattleTech. It watered down the game.

"yOu DoNt HaVe To UsE iT iF yOu DoNt LiKe It" is not a defense against changes to game balance affecting the entire game.

Combined arms is supposed to be flavor, not the core element. Tanks and PBI are mook units, they should play like mook units. Did CityTech make conventional forces so irrelevant they weren't much fun to use? Yes. Was it bizarre there were dedicated anti-infantry 'Mechs when infantry were only a threat in fluff? Yes. But Total Warfare swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Where would Star Wars be if stormtroopers suddenly learned how to shoot?

[Maingunnery]

They Taurians wouldn't be the only ones being bombarded and the houses are more than willing to use nukes.

On what basis?

Actually, civilians were trained in anti-mech tactics during the Reunification War. Since then they've kept an army. Granted the ground forces aren't much but there's no reason to believe that civilians wouldn't resist an invasion.

That is a different era.

And the Alliance has some of the best aerospace fighter pilots. They did defeat the Clans in canon.

They won a trail, not a war, big difference.

Actually, I hadn't thought of them but if the entire Clan military ups and moves to the IS, who'd be around to stop them? Who'd keep the civilians in line?

The Clans have police.

I was more thinking that rival Clans would use the opportunity to Trial for other's holdings in the Home Worlds.

In they scenario they all move forces.

There's also Pirates. The same people who've annoyed the Periphery and Houses for ages. They'd avoid warships but transports are open game and there aren't enough warships to cover everything.

Pirates don't stand a chance to even a single Clan Combat DropShip.

[Daryk]

*snip*
But Total Warfare swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.
*snip*

I don't think the game play changes in TW "swung the pendulum too far"... The only thing doing that is the BV system.  You can clearly figure out what size infantry force would be a reasonable challenge to a lance of 'mechs, and it bears exactly zero resemblance to a BV balanced force (and to be fair, even less resemblance to a "balanced" force played by someone like Weirdo... I'd give him even odds with a platoon or two from what I've seen here on the boards).  Personally, I've never used BV for exactly that reason.  It's never been right, and honestly, I don't think the level of human judgment needed to balance forces appropriately can ever be codified into a points based system.

[RifleMech]

I like vehicles and infantry. I use vehicles and infantry. I still don't want them being on anything near an even footing with 'Mechs. The balance of power changed so much that 'Mechs are no longer the centerpiece, just one piece of a larger puzzle. That is antithetical to the spirit of BattleTech. It watered down the game.

"yOu DoNt HaVe To UsE iT iF yOu DoNt LiKe It" is not a defense against changes to game balance affecting the entire game.

Combined arms is supposed to be flavor, not the core element. Tanks and PBI are mook units, they should play like mook units. Did CityTech make conventional forces so irrelevant they weren't much fun to use? Yes. Was it bizarre there were dedicated anti-infantry 'Mechs when infantry were only a threat in fluff? Yes. But Total Warfare swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Where would Star Wars be if stormtroopers suddenly learned how to shoot?

I don't see that Mechs stopped being the center of Battletech. Infantry and vehicles have always been a danger to Mechs. They shouldn't be just mook targets for Mech Warriors' amusement or bonus points. Their being a threat doesn't give them an even footing.

As far as infantry go though giving the entire platoon's weapons the range of the longest weapon is too much. Not all weapons have the same range. Giving infantry multiple attacks to cover the different ranges would go towards blunting their power in a way. Only when their target is in range of all the weapons should the platoon, or squad, do full damage.

And use of infantry and vehicles are optional and their changes effected the game far less than DHS or the Clans. Or going from Aerospace to Aerospace 2.

On what basis?

History. The SLDF attacks. The OA resists. The SLDF responds with atrocities. The OA responds with increased resistance. The SLDF increases the atrocities. Really the Clans should be horrified by what the SLDF did to force the Periphery's admission into the Star League. And even the SLDF didn't wipe out the entire population of a realm. Not even the Rim Worlds Republic. Yet that's what this scenario says the Clans do.  :-\

The houses also had no problems using nukes. One use that comes to mind is Lyrans using the Sea Skimmers to nuke a dam to defeat Kurita.

That is a different era.

So was the Outworlds Alliance's pacifism. Now they have a standing army and a well equipped ASF.

They won a trail, not a war, big difference.

But there was no war. They weren't invaded by the Clans. They allied with Clan Snow Raven.

The Clans have police.

So?

In they scenario they all move forces.

So how do they resupply? Who protects the Home Worlds?

Pirates don't stand a chance to even a single Clan Combat DropShip.

Maybe. Maybe not. But not all dropships are made for combat. Also Dropships are among the last units Clan units to be upgraded and at the time of the invasion, many of the invading Clan's dropships still used standard weapons. And those were the most powerful of the Clans. Other Clans wouldn't even have fully upgraded forces.

[Caedis Animus]

I don't think the level of human judgment needed to balance forces appropriately can ever be codified into a points based system.

Considering the Targe TRG-2N is 42 BV higher than the Initiate INI-02, I'm more than a little inclined to agree with you.

[R.Tempest]

 If we agree that the goals for invading Clans are Successor State worlds, then what if they negotiate with the Taurians? The Taurians provide them with enclaves on sparsely settled worlds, jointly upgraded factories and all their intelligence on the Federated Suns. Give them a pat on the back and point them in the direction of New Avalon. ("Have fun storming the castle.)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Because the Clans do not negotiate with filthy enemies of the Star League.

[The_Caveman]

I don't think the game play changes in TW "swung the pendulum too far"... The only thing doing that is the BV system.  You can clearly figure out what size infantry force would be a reasonable challenge to a lance of 'mechs, and it bears exactly zero resemblance to a BV balanced force (and to be fair, even less resemblance to a "balanced" force played by someone like Weirdo... I'd give him even odds with a platoon or two from what I've seen here on the boards).  Personally, I've never used BV for exactly that reason.  It's never been right, and honestly, I don't think the level of human judgment needed to balance forces appropriately can ever be codified into a points based system.

BV and infantry has never worked. On that we are agreed. Trying to fight an equal-BV number of TW infantry with 'Mechs would be suicide. I'm not sure an equal-BV amount of CityTech infantry could even beat a 'Mech force. There doesn't appear to be a workable middle ground.

[The_Caveman]

If we agree that the goals for invading Clans are Successor State worlds, then what if they negotiate with the Taurians? The Taurians provide them with enclaves on sparsely settled worlds, jointly upgraded factories and all their intelligence on the Federated Suns. Give them a pat on the back and point them in the direction of New Avalon. ("Have fun storming the castle.)

If you replaced the Coyotes and whoever else with the Snow Ravens and Diamond Sharks, you might get a coalition that was pragmatic and flexible enough in their reading of Clan law to pull that off. Of course, with the Ravens, you'd have a lot more WarShips and collaboration would also look a lot more appealing from the Taurian perspective.

[Caedis Animus]

BV and infantry has never worked. On that we are agreed. Trying to fight an equal-BV number of TW infantry with 'Mechs would be suicide. I'm not sure an equal-BV amount of CityTech infantry could even beat a 'Mech force. There doesn't appear to be a workable middle ground.

I've reworked infantry to be far closer to PA(L) from a certain point of view for homebrew rules. Can take some mild hits (AC/2s, single SRM rounds) but smaller in unit numbers.

That's problably not the 'silver bullet' solution, but it does something. Wasn't about to calculate BV on it though. But that's not the subject for here.

[SCC]

I like vehicles and infantry. I use vehicles and infantry. I still don't want them being on anything near an even footing with 'Mechs. The balance of power changed so much that 'Mechs are no longer the centerpiece, just one piece of a larger puzzle. That is antithetical to the spirit of BattleTech. It watered down the game.

"yOu DoNt HaVe To UsE iT iF yOu DoNt LiKe It" is not a defense against changes to game balance affecting the entire game.

Combined arms is supposed to be flavor, not the core element. Tanks and PBI are mook units, they should play like mook units. Did CityTech make conventional forces so irrelevant they weren't much fun to use? Yes. Was it bizarre there were dedicated anti-infantry 'Mechs when infantry were only a threat in fluff? Yes. But Total Warfare swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Where would Star Wars be if stormtroopers suddenly learned how to shoot?

The problem with the changes you want is that making them work would likely ensure that people that don't use other forces will be at a disadvantage when facing people who do.

I don't think the game play changes in TW "swung the pendulum too far"... The only thing doing that is the BV system.  You can clearly figure out what size infantry force would be a reasonable challenge to a lance of 'mechs, and it bears exactly zero resemblance to a BV balanced force (and to be fair, even less resemblance to a "balanced" force played by someone like Weirdo... I'd give him even odds with a platoon or two from what I've seen here on the boards).  Personally, I've never used BV for exactly that reason.  It's never been right, and honestly, I don't think the level of human judgment needed to balance forces appropriately can ever be codified into a points based system.

I believe that TW swung the pendulum in order to encourage the use non-'Mech forces and to create more predictability and uniformity in their life expectancy, this later is important because it allows more accurate and realistically balancing, preventing people who know how to use them properly from becoming over powered.

BV and infantry has never worked. On that we are agreed. Trying to fight an equal-BV number of TW infantry with 'Mechs would be suicide. I'm not sure an equal-BV amount of CityTech infantry could even beat a 'Mech force. There doesn't appear to be a workable middle ground.

Gotta come up with a system that results in the same statistics that infantry have had forever. That said the way BV is calculated based upon the weapons picked and not on final range and damage is a problem.

[The_Caveman]

The problem with the changes you want is that making them work would likely ensure that people that don't use other forces will be at a disadvantage when facing people who do.

That's the intention. Forces that don't include 'Mechs should be disadvantaged and have to make up for it somewhere else. This is BattleTech. 'Mechs are king. If you want a general-purpose scifi wargame, there are several good ones out there.

That said, the old turret-mounted-fusion-engine-fuel-tank-hit thru-armor critical was bullshit and I don't think anybody wants to see that kind of silliness come back.

[Caedis Animus]

That's the intention. Forces that don't include 'Mechs should be disadvantaged and have to make up for it somewhere else. This is BattleTech. 'Mechs are king. If you want a general-purpose scifi wargame, there are several good ones out there.

Unfortunately, this is BattleTech, not BattleMech. Otherwise saying the franchise's name would have more weight to it. *

Nah, I do agree, Battlemechs should be more powerful overall compared to infantry and vehicles, but... Not enough for it to be anywhere near MW4 levels of 'literally shoot a Clan ER PPC at a Demolisher for it to explode' of weakness on the tank's part (Which is the level I've seen people say they want vehicles nerfed to entirely too often.). I'd say something to make lighter vehicles at a much greater disadvantage to mechs, but have heavier vehicles at least capable of matching in firepower, but not overall effectiveness, would be a happy medium.

Come to think of it, I'd want to remove Cassie Suthorn in general, when it comes to infantry. I don't think the current infantry rules even bother me enough to care about anything else.

*EDIT; Before anyone says anything, that's kind of a joke. This game's known more for mechs than anything else. Aside from maybe legal disputes.

[RifleMech]

That's the intention. Forces that don't include 'Mechs should be disadvantaged and have to make up for it somewhere else. This is BattleTech. 'Mechs are king. If you want a general-purpose scifi wargame, there are several good ones out there.

That said, the old turret-mounted-fusion-engine-fuel-tank-hit thru-armor critical was bullshit and I don't think anybody wants to see that kind of silliness come back.

Kings can still be killed by the lowliest of serfs. Forces should complement each other. Units without mechs are at a disadvantage but so are mechs without other units. Mechs can go places and do things no other unit can do but there's things they can't. That's why they have other units. To support them.

[Kovax]

There's the limitation of BV.  Fielding 1500 BV of infantry in an urban scenario would be overpowered.  Fielding the same infantry in an open field with no cover would be a massacre.  Combined arms doctrine would suggest that you have some of each, to use one unit's strong points to cover the other's weaknesses.

Of course, that doesn't fly in a "min/max" pickup game where you get to choose what you want to field for the specific situation.  You get to pick all of the units optimized for the terrain, and none of the disadvantaged ones.  Randomize the terrain and it's a different story.

I've played using BV, and it works to some degree, but it can very easily be manipulated if one party is trying to gain an advantage, rather than trying to create a balanced game.  Humans being the competitive creatures that they are, the results are often less than satisfactory when someone crosses that unstated "DBAD" line with both feet.

The problem is, the BT universe was initially built around some kind of "gentlemen's agreement" to set up scenarios, or else an impartial GM.  I don't think there's any specific point where you can go back and change it "From now on.....".  Using BV as a starting point for some kind of mutual force balance agreement is fine, but it makes a very poor mechanism for "fair" balancing of tournaments or other competitive games.

The longer I play, the more I'm inclined to have both sides roll up random forces from some mutually agreed tables.  If it's unbalanced, that's how war often is, but it's not intentionally unbalanced by one party or the other.

[ArchonDan]

To be fair every point based system has the same problem. Points/BV can't account for every variable in a game and leads to min/maxing. BT has many nobs to turn to balance game play. Tonnage cost of equipment, heat generated, range, damage, added +/- modifiers. I feel like there are underutilized or were kind of thrown out the window when the Clan/Lost tech became available.

[The_Caveman]

Ever consider a deck of cards with different options on them that the players get to choose? Say, each player draws 3-5 cards that have game conditions on them like "choose the map size" or "choose the tonnage limits". Every card would have to have some meaningful option of course (even if it were something like "pick one design your opponent can't deploy").

[Nastyogre]

If you are going to make the FedCom cool, I'm a Davionista. If you are going to break it up,cool. Just don't make it so ham-handed. Catherine is a murderous witch out of nowhere? Victor knows he killed their mother and says "oh well too much trouble to deal with her, we will just hope she doesn't make more trouble, the Clans are the big problem."

The Fed Suns so incapable against Guererro, during the Jihad and the wars vs DC and CC bother me.

FWL being co-opted by the Wobbies.

The Wobbies. Really? Religious fanatics that legitimately thought there were prophecies? (I do appreciate it that they didn't say special prayers to the machines anymore)

I think balkanizing the IS would make sense. It always seemed so obvious to me after 4 Succession Wars "Maybe we should just marry each others kids to each other and make a new first lord."

Clans? I don't think the society would even survive. Assuming it did, I don't think the IS would have realistically waited to band together and push back, hard.

So what would I reset? Hanse Davion's death? Maybe even the start of the 1st SW? Honestly it may boil down to the idea of Neo-Feudalism, I just don't find it all that plausible anymore. Neat for a game universe, but I don't think ruling star empires with a Feudal system would work.

[deathfrombeyond]

You know, even more than resetting the BattleTech universe ruleset to a time when infantry or artillery wasn't so overpowered, or when the first gen Virtual World stuff was still around, you know what would be interesting?

Let's go back to the time when Star League tech/Clan tech was introduced.

No, I'm not suggesting shackling Clan tech. What I am suggesting is the revision of the double heat sink, a concept I've mentioned in the past.

[The_Caveman]

You know, even more than resetting the BattleTech universe ruleset to a time when infantry or artillery wasn't so overpowered, or when the first gen Virtual World stuff was still around, you know what would be interesting?

Let's go back to the time when Star League tech/Clan tech was introduced.

No, I'm not suggesting shackling Clan tech. What I am suggesting is the revision of the double heat sink, a concept I've mentioned in the past.

Let's go one better and rework the entire heat management paradigm so that introducing a better heat sink doesn't break the game.

[SCC]

That's the intention. Forces that don't include 'Mechs should be disadvantaged and have to make up for it somewhere else. This is BattleTech. 'Mechs are king. If you want a general-purpose scifi wargame, there are several good ones out there.

Right, now you're going to piss off BOTH sides of the isle

That said, the old turret-mounted-fusion-engine-fuel-tank-hit thru-armor critical was bullshit and I don't think anybody wants to see that kind of silliness come back.

Expect that's pretty much what would happen if they did as you proposed.

For something different, release TRO:3050 as two separate books, the first one has the same time setting as 20 Year Update, possibly even later and sprinkle in more rumors of the Coming of the Clans. This book will contain only IS designs (from before the invasion) and there's a lot of cool things like putting the designs into phases, showing the weapons moving from experimental models to early production where people are still figuring out how to use them (using vehicles here is a good way to show flaws in thinking) and finally a limited number of full production designs and limiting the number of new engine ratings available, stuff that makes things look more like the actions of an actual military designing new gear.

Later on release a new TRO set post-Tukayyid, featuring the Clans and the IS response, which is limited ONN style to refits. Overall this setup would replace both 3050 and 3055, but I think I'd make these books smaller and a better one-two combination.

[The_Caveman]

Right, now you're going to piss off BOTH sides of the aisle

You know what they say, if neither side is happy then it's a good compromise ;)

Besides, this is a wishful thinking thread.

[SCC]

You know what they say, if neither side is happy then it's a good compromise ;)

Considering that likely neither side is happy and your suggestions would make them both more unhappy, I don't really think that that proverb applies.

[Coriendal]

For me it would be 3014.  Anton's revolt was encouraged by Comstar.  What if they went really big?  Canopus joins Andurien after starting more production in Canopus with Andurien's help(not traceable).  Attacks by Max prevent Oriente from helping Janos and Regulus succeeds, while the Lyran border provinces go neutral.

Rasalhague and Azami(spelling) revolts with Miles? Kurita challenging for the throne. 

Katherine faces Frederick and friends in civil war.  Tamar attacking Rasalhague, Skye in rebellion. 

The pirate kingdoms unified under Grimm and a surprise return of the Rim World forces.  All the minor powers receiving technology and supplies.  Outworlds unified and "lost" worlds returned to the fold under a militaristic house Avellar.  Taurians invading the Suns. 

Capellan March and house Hasek challenges Hanse for the throne while the Periphery starts withholding troops to defend itself and the Draconis March invades the Combine. 

Max initially attacks into Oriente to support Anton.  Rizdik rebels with Max's psycho daughter and takes the Tikonov area with him.  Candace takes St. Ives neutral while McCarron attacks the Suns.

Comstar waits for the fighting to reach a peak and then reforms the Terran Hegemony.  Attacking with the 50 regiments and warships they are known to have.

Now that is a hard reset.