Author Topic: CSO paint-along with Gunji  (Read 218580 times)

Wotan

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #90 on: 01 October 2013, 12:38:45 »
Cavalry Brown would have been my recommendation as a substitute for the RMS Mahogany I used, so you should be able to achieve a similar result than me ;) But ok, to achieve a brown similar to the CSO mini Cavalry Brown may be a bit too red. You might try to mix in some green to tone down the red. But you could also use the the same (or similar blue) I have used here (this it what I would do), but your end result will not be as warm as the CSO mini. To stay with a warm brown, use a dark brown (maybe Vallejo Model Color German Camo Black Brown) for shading.

Not sure about your hint for green. Shading with deep blue will result in a cold dark area. When i mix my base Brown with dark green ... i have no idea what result i should expect.  :D
That said my darkest blue is the Imperial Blue from Vallejo Game Color. But i assume you use a darker tone, right ?

Fatebringer

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #91 on: 01 October 2013, 13:36:15 »
I just saw this awesome thread, way to go everyone :)

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Pat Payne

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #92 on: 01 October 2013, 18:33:50 »
I also attach my minis to paint pots, but I use Blu-Tak rather than glue.

May sound odd, but I use Silly Putty. :)

Mastergunz

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #93 on: 01 October 2013, 23:37:46 »
May sound odd, but I use Silly Putty. :)

Not at all. I use museum putty which is basically the same thing.

-Gunz
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GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #94 on: 02 October 2013, 06:24:54 »
Some Feedback ...

@Todd: Looking good so far. The spots on the UrbanMech you have chosen for the red are not the easiest to paint as they are rather small and thin, but the shading certainly shows.
You said you started the highlights. Please explain to me what you did. Did you just bring back the basecolor or already start lightening the red. Just so I know where you are at to keep it in mind.
Overall I'd say your shadows could be even darker, especially on the legs. Also when it comes to highlights I wouldn't have "framed" the panels on the legs for example, but rather introduced a top to bottom gradient. I am interested in hearing your thought process here.

@serrate: Judging by the pictures I can find online Ceramcoat Midnight Blue looks to be just the right hue. Don't worry about too much coverage, we can easily take care of this during the next steps. Regarding the highlights, your feeling is not wrong. It can be a constant moving back and forth (and often is when I paint) until you are satisfied with the result. That is one of the advantages of using thin, translucent layers of paint and can make for very smooth results. For the paint-along I tried to be more structured and limit the back and forth, but we will revisit (and refine) both shades and lights during later stages.
Looking at your shading it seems you spent some time working on each panel individually. This does work of course, but may drive you nuts when we tackle the green parts (that Enforcer mini truly is one of the more over-the-top minis when it comes to panel lines). An alternative would have been to work more globally. Shade the side of a shoulder from top to bottom with the effect, that the top panel would have little to no blue and the bottom panel would almost be completely blue. Getting back definition would then fall to the highlights completely. Let's take another look at the arm of the Blade I referenced earlier:

No need to change anything right now (except maybe give the shadows on the rear left shoulder another pass), but maybe you give this approach a try when we paint the green parts.

@Wotan: Imperial Blue is dark enough (actually I think it is even darker than the Periscopes I use), it is just more saturated. You can use it and get a more vibrant result (nothing wrong with that) or mix in a bit of grey or brown to "muddy" the color.

Tomorrow is a holiday here in Germany and I won't be near a computer for most of the day. So I will probably post the next steps (highlighting the red) on Friday, hopefully giving everyone enough time to catch up.

I do have another question for all of you though - are the pictures I post sufficient? Side by side pictures have been suggested and I will look into it. Anything else? Would close-ups help? Thanks for your feedback :)

The Wayfarer

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #95 on: 02 October 2013, 10:04:47 »
I think I'm more frustrated with my inability to take a good picture than the shading.  Besides the areas where I can still see the dusting primer, the shading looks a little blue to me in the photos.  I used watered down GW Enchanted Blue.  Maybe it was too bright.  Should I repaint the red and start with a darker blue?  What should I do with the nubbies on the shoulder pads?

 

Thanks in advance!

Mike
Revelations 6:8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #96 on: 02 October 2013, 10:43:39 »
@The Wayfarer: That looks pretty good actually, no need to be frustrated (the picture is fine too). Enchanted Blue is a much more saturated blue than the one I have used. It does look a little too blue however and you want to change that to push the contrast. Even though you now have a nice gradient from red to blue, the shadows should be darker, less saturated. Try mixing the blue either with black or with a dark, but warm, brown (e.g. Scorched Brown or Dark Flesh from the old GW range) and glaze the blue parts with this mix (heavily thinned paint, not much paint on the brush, painting from the red to the blue). This should tone down the blue and darken the shadows. Also make sure the panel lines get darkened by this new mix (I'd take a brush with a good tip and paint this mix directly into the panel lines). For the nubs, paint the strongest (darkest) shadows on the undersides (where the least light from above falls), the upper sides get the least shading.

Did you switch to the darker metallic mix you mentioned earlier btw? I like the parts you have picked out with it.

serrate

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #97 on: 02 October 2013, 10:43:58 »
Looking at your shading it seems you spent some time working on each panel individually. This does work of course, but may drive you nuts when we tackle the green parts (that Enforcer mini truly is one of the more over-the-top minis when it comes to panel lines).

I did spend most of my time working on each panel individually. I developed a pattern where I started on the top of the left shoulder, moved around the sides from front to back, then moved to the right shoulder back and around ending up on top. Then the waist and finally the knees. It wasn't bad, but yea this mini has a LOT of panels so I can see where doing this with the green would be a pain.

An alternative would have been to work more globally. Shade the side of a shoulder from top to bottom with the effect, that the top panel would have little to no blue and the bottom panel would almost be completely blue. Getting back definition would then fall to the highlights completely. Let's take another look at the arm of the Blade I referenced earlier:

I tried this, in my own way, for a couple coats but didn't really know what I was doing. I think the issue is that I was looking at the example of the Blade, and in that case, the highlighting is already completed as well as the shading. For some reason, I just failed to recognize that the Blade pic was NOT a work-in-progress.

No need to change anything right now (except maybe give the shadows on the rear left shoulder another pass), but maybe you give this approach a try when we paint the green parts.

The rear left shoulder doesn't have dark enough shading, correct? Will do.

Ok, so on the green, I'm going to try the global shading effect. I took a look at a couple of my pics this morning, and decided I needed to pick a common light-source direction. I figured above right (artist's view) matched the red highlights most closely. Then I opened up Gimp, chose the airbrush (and, by the way, have never done this before so it's crude at best), smallest brush size and set the opacity to 50% (should've gone even more transparent I think).  Here's what I came up with:



I'm thinking this is an approximation of what the green will look like when it gets shaded.

I do have another question for all of you though - are the pictures I post sufficient? Side by side pictures have been suggested and I will look into it. Anything else? Would close-ups help? Thanks for your feedback :)

I'm fine with the pics, but side-by-side could be useful too. The pics, as they are, are already close enough imo. I told my wife this morning that I sure am enjoying my free painting class!  O0

@The Wayfarer: I like that, especially on the legs!

Mastergunz

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #98 on: 02 October 2013, 10:57:58 »
Thanks Mike, its always a challenge 'stepping out of your comfort zone' to learn a new way of doing things and I think I subconciously fell back on what I know. For the reds it was just the 'first stage' highlights of bringing the red back to it's original color. I mixed in P3 Bloodstone (almost a mahogany red-brown) mixed with Reaper Carnage Red for the for the shadows then did the bold highlight of just Carnage Red. I originally did treat the red panels on the legs as a 'band' instead of individual panels but it just didn't "feel" right looking at the red on the rest of the minaiture. I'll build up more contrast from there. I normally would add a yellow or orange depending on the warmth I wanted, unless you have another suggestion. For the black shadows im using pure Army Painter Matte Black though I suppose another layer or 2 wouldn't hurt seeing as there is nothing to add to make it darker than black, lol (though I suspect it's my lighting/camera phone hiding the true color depth  #P). Time permitting I may set up my photo box and take some adjusted shots for comparison.

-Gunz
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TheMaster1955

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #99 on: 02 October 2013, 12:35:43 »
GunjiNoKanrei

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The Wayfarer

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #100 on: 02 October 2013, 14:58:43 »
Did you switch to the darker metallic mix you mentioned earlier btw? I like the parts you have picked out with it.

No.  Trying to follow your instructions as close as possible.  Used Boltgun metal then a black wash over it like you recommended.

Second attempt below.  Used GW Regal Blue mixed with a dash of GW Scab Red with a couple of brushfulls of water.  Looks less blue.    I'm a little more please with the results.  And I'm still using my camera flash otherwise the pics are way too dark.  May still need to work on some of the shading especially on the right shoulder.

And the pictures you have been posting are fine.





Revelations 6:8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #101 on: 04 October 2013, 03:49:00 »
@serrate:
The rear left shoulder doesn't have dark enough shading, correct? Will do.
Yes.
Ok, so on the green, I'm going to try the global shading effect. I took a look at a couple of my pics this morning, and decided I needed to pick a common light-source direction. I figured above right (artist's view) matched the red highlights most closely. Then I opened up Gimp, chose the airbrush (and, by the way, have never done this before so it's crude at best), smallest brush size and set the opacity to 50% (should've gone even more transparent I think).  Here's what I came up with:

I'm thinking this is an approximation of what the green will look like when it gets shaded.
That's a great map you have made there and comes close to what we will be trying to achieve.

I told my wife this morning that I sure am enjoying my free painting class!  O0
Thanks!  :)

@Todd:
Thanks Mike, its always a challenge 'stepping out of your comfort zone' to learn a new way of doing things and I think I subconciously fell back on what I know. For the reds it was just the 'first stage' highlights of bringing the red back to it's original color. I mixed in P3 Bloodstone (almost a mahogany red-brown) mixed with Reaper Carnage Red for the for the shadows then did the bold highlight of just Carnage Red. I originally did treat the red panels on the legs as a 'band' instead of individual panels but it just didn't "feel" right looking at the red on the rest of the minaiture. I'll build up more contrast from there. I normally would add a yellow or orange depending on the warmth I wanted, unless you have another suggestion. For the black shadows im using pure Army Painter Matte Black though I suppose another layer or 2 wouldn't hurt seeing as there is nothing to add to make it darker than black, lol (though I suspect it's my lighting/camera phone hiding the true color depth  #P). Time permitting I may set up my photo box and take some adjusted shots for comparison.

-Gunz
Thanks for your thoughts. I am glad to hear, I am not the only one who just 'feels' that something isn't right or looks good. One of the most difficult things to explain when it comes to painting ;)
And I know what you mean by 'stepping out of your comfort zone'. For me the whole thread is just that ... trying to structure my painting into (easy to follow?) steps is not easy when often I do things just because it feels like the right thing to do ;) And while I thought my painting on the Mjolnir was relatively straight forward and nothing out of the ordinary it probably turned out to be more complex than I anticipated. Anyway I am just glad so many are along for the ride and are not scared off by my ramblings ... ;)
For the Maroon parts my suggested highlight would Vallejo Pale Sand, a warm-ish off-white. You have more of a red, a tricky color to highlight. Have you ever tried adding a fleshtone for highlights? It is a bit like a blend of yellow/orange and white, retaining some warmth, but also pushing the contrast. Even when using a lot of orange and/or yellow to highlight red I recommend at least a very fine edge highlight with some white(ish) color added to push the contrast.
Also I didn't realize you already started the black (as we haven't started the green yet). You are correct of course, that there is nothing darker than black, so my suggestion may sound odd, but try glazing the black parts with a very dark blue (pushing the paint into the shadows). Just enough to get a small sheen of color since you obviously don't want it to look blue. This adds depth to the color as the cold blue is perceived as 'distant' by the eye. A cold purple might work too (and tie the shadows nicely to the red).

@The Wayfarer:
This looks better, great work so far. Try to get more of the shading color into the panel lines to define them. Our aim for the shading stage is not only to establish shadows, but also to define the panel lines. They don't have to be black/your-darkest-color-of-choice, but definition should become evident at this stage. That being said it is possible that your panel lines are just being washed out by the flash. I don't want to digress into miniature photography, but if you have easy access to a tripod and it is no hassle to use, try using it to snap the pictures. You don't need the flash as you can use longer exposure times without getting shaky pictures. If you don't have the chance to do this, don't worry, the pictures with the flash will be fine for this paint-along :)

GunjiNoKanrei

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William J. Pennington

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #102 on: 04 October 2013, 04:58:49 »
I'll have to jump into this. I've got a short battalion of Capellans to paint, and I've decided to do a mock 'multi-cam' scheme using 4 colors.  My real concern is getting shading to work without messing up the multicam too much.

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #103 on: 04 October 2013, 06:44:43 »
I'll have to jump into this. I've got a short battalion of Capellans to paint, and I've decided to do a mock 'multi-cam' scheme using 4 colors.  My real concern is getting shading to work without messing up the multicam too much.
Camo can be a bit tricky, but using the transparency of the paint this works just fine. What I usually do when painting camo is, apply the pattern, shade globally (same or at least similar shade for all colors/patches), then highlight all colors/patches individually. Due to the transparency of the paint you can easily decide how much to darken the camo and how intense the shadow should be. Sure, you may lose some definition/separation in the deepest shadows (but you decide to which extend), but for some patches this is wanted and on others you can easily get back definition with the highlights.

Post a picture after painting the camo colors and I gladly give my input regarding shading color(s) and application.

Maddog3025

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #104 on: 04 October 2013, 12:26:15 »
I'm still playing catchup but I have the primjng done and am working on the hands, guns, etc right now. For the trim color, I have the WarMachine Sanguine Base which is fairly maroon. But so far, the colors I have seen so far are pretty red. Should I pick more of an actual red , or will this pusjing/shading technique work ok with a more mariin shade?

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #105 on: 04 October 2013, 14:46:16 »
@Maddog3025: Sanguine Base is a very good substitute for my original color Mahogany Brown. Mahogany Brown is a maoonish color as well. A bit more on the brown side even than Sanguine Base. Shading with blue should also work nicely as Sanguine Base already has some blue in it.

The shading techniques (can) work with any color.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2013, 14:51:22 by GunjiNoKanrei »

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #106 on: 04 October 2013, 17:44:29 »
To everyone who is still catching up, please don't feel rushed by me posting the next steps. Take your time, go through the steps at your own speed. Even after the last step has been posted, I will still be here to see you through and answer questions.
With that being said I want to proceed to the next steps: highlighting the red parts and first details.

Here is what I posted earlier about highlighting:
When highlighting I follow a similar approach (referencing shading techniques from previous post).
- Glazes: same as above, but this time pulling the paint from dark to light.
- Feathering: works here too, but I use it less frequently.
- Edge highlights: another technique I use for the final lights are edge highlights where I only paint sharp edges and the most prominent parts in a very light color to really push the contrast and make the mini stand out. For this the paint is slightly less thinned than for the other techniques, but still enough so it easily flows off the brush. The easiest and most controlled way is to apply the paint using the side of the brush rather than the tip whenever possible.

When highlighting, especially when doing the edge highlights, I don't treat every panel and edge the same. While I don't truly follow a fixed lightsource approach (one of my bigger flaws, I very roughly use a 'light from above' approach, but some more focus definitely couldn't hurt...) I try to pay more attention to the torso/head area than to the legs and feet.

Not much to add really. Except maybe to stress the importance of thinning paints. With the highlights we more than before start to work with the transparency of the paint, especially during the first highlighting stages. We will paint over large parts of the shadows again, but we do not want an opaque coat of paint over them.

Step 7: With the dark shadows we have introduced quite a lot of blue/black to areas which are maroon as per the scheme description. Time to get some of the redness back. To start the highlighting process, well, what we really do first is to reestablish the basecolor, the middle tone. Using Reaper Master Series Mahogany Brown (with a dab of GW Scab Red) I painted from the shadows to the lights. I used this mix for a couple of layers, making sure that the previous layer is dry before painting the next (to speed up the drying time I often blow on the miniature - feels strange at first, but the effect is very interesting as you can literally see paint dry). During the highlighting stages make sure that no paint gets into the panel lines.





Step 8: I didn't snap pictures of each mix I used for highlighting, but after using neat Scab Red (pictured above) I started to add Vallejo Model Color Pale Sand to really brighten the mix. I also started to concentrate on the sharp edges and corners.





Step 9: Continuing to add Pale Sand I painted only the most prominent edges and corners (and often only partly) with this mix. For these bright (edge) highlights my paint is not as thin as for previous steps. I am looking for coverage with paint that still flows easily off the brush. Here I applied the paint with the side of the brush, not the tip (whenever possible). With this step the highlighting was finished for the moment.
At this point I wasn't very happy with the Mjolnir and I was very close to giving it the Acetone treatment. The highlights on the maroon were not as soft and smooth as I intended (very obvious for example on the outsides of the lower legs where I covered too much surface with a too bright mix) them to be and the effect on the shoulders looked better in my head than on the miniature. The left shoulder (on the miniature) was giving me a particular hard time as the edges were not very sharp. Something I missed during preparation. In the end I decided to go ahead and paint the green, hoping this would help me see the maroon in a new light. This proved to be the right decision as I was likely thrown off by just one part having such a strong contrast compared to the rest of the miniature. So if you experience a similar feeling, fight through it ;)





Step 10: As a bonus I want to throw in another step which is just painting some details before we tackle the green parts. During this step I did two things: paint the grey areas and paint the cockpit.
For the grey areas I started by bringing back Vallejo Panzer Aces Dark Rubber, the basecolor (looking back at the first steps I fear I forgot to mention that not only the metallics, but also the grey areas got a simple black wash ... so if you haven't done that so far, do it now). For the highlights I just added more and more white to the basecolor. As we are only painting very small areas at this stage (vents, the fingers, ...) I didn't thin my paints down as much as for the red highlights. I'd say my paint was not thinner than the consistency of milk, rather thicker. Building a smooth gradient is not that important on those tiny areas, the overall effect is more important. If the result looks too rough, you can glaze the grey areas with the basecolor or black to smooth everything out (a glaze is paint thinned to a wash-like consistency, but applied in a very thin, controlled and even layer across the whole surface - the goal is not to darken recesses as with a wash, but to lightly tint the whole surface area).
The cockpit on the Mjolnir doesn't have enough surface for any fancy effects so I painted the cockpit quick and simple like having some sort of inner glow. Starting with a very dark blue (you guessed it - Periscopes), I added more and more Reaper Master Series Ultramarine Blue and finally white. The highlights were painted towards the upper and middle parts of the windscreen. Even though it is just a small cockpit, I tried to get a smooth gradient and often used glazes of Ultramarine Blue and Periscopes to smooth out transitions between highlights.
It would be easy to cover a couple of pages with various cockpit painting techniques, but I fear this is out of scope for this paint-along. There is a good article on CSO about the popular 'jeweling technique', but there are other ways as well. I actually thought about doing a tutorial just about the different ways of painting cockpits and sometime I will get around to doing it. For now I have attached a few close-ups of cockpits painted not with the jeweling technique for your inspiration (see end of post). If anyone would like some advice on the cockpit of your chosen miniature, just speak up :)




I hope this gives everyone something to do over the weekend :)

Wotan

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #107 on: 05 October 2013, 06:34:53 »
Ok just to understand correctly. You started the Highlights with a mix of your base Mahagoni color and a bit of red. In the next step you say you only used red then ... does that mean in the step before you used even more red for each layer ? Until you reach the red Color ? :D

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #108 on: 05 October 2013, 15:17:26 »
Well, in German I'd say Jein ;) I started the steps by bringing back the base color (with a touch of red). The next step was indeed neat Scab Red. Such a color jump is not possible with every color, but with low pigment paints like GW this can work nicely. It is important to understand that I don't' just paint one layer with any mix, but many layers. Working with the transparency of thinned acrylic paint and overlapping layers I don't build up an intense color in one pass, but slowly.
With the Pale Sand color my color jumps are smaller as it can get chalky otherwise.

A nice effect of painting this way is that exact mixes are not that important. For example I didn't finish the highlighting stage in one painting session. During the next painting session I mixed the color new by eyeballing it rather than following a recipe.

skumm

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #109 on: 05 October 2013, 19:07:57 »
im doing this as well. Working on an OOP Bandersnatch . Will get the initial pics up tomorrow. I was outof black primer so i went and got some this morning. When ig et them up feel free to comment on the dusting technique.

Skumm
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serrate

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #110 on: 05 October 2013, 20:51:16 »
One thing I love about this thread is that more people can keep jumping in.  O0

The Wayfarer

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #111 on: 07 October 2013, 20:31:40 »
I was mixing Scab Red with Bleach Bone.  Not sure I like the results.  Sorry for the poor pic.  No flash this time.




Mike
Revelations 6:8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

serrate

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #112 on: 07 October 2013, 23:51:47 »
Mine looked ok after adding back a few layers of red. Then I started adding Iraqi Sand (Vallejo) and it just went downhill. I may post pics in the morning, but I'm thinking I'm going to go back to red layers and cancel out those highlights and try again.

GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #113 on: 08 October 2013, 04:53:38 »
Judging by the few reactions so far, the highlighting stage, or the results, don't seem to be to everyone's liking. Please tell me, why you have doubts or are not satisfied with the results and do post pictures. I do realize my way of painting may be completely different from how you have been working. I am not trying to make you paint like me, but trying to be open to new techniques (which all of you are!!!) and ultimately (hopefully) find things to take away when this paint-along is finished to incorporate into your own painting. Working with "my" techniques - which may seem alien to you - don't expect "perfect" results on the first try. Working with thinned paints, new techniques, ... this takes some getting used to.
Also having only such small parts of the miniature at an advanced stage can throw off your perception. It sure threw me off and as I have written above, I almost stripped the miniature after the red highlights. Trust me, it will look better, more complete, once we have tackled the green parts and have them in a similar state. Besides I do have a few more tricks up my sleeves for example to smooth out transitions ... so even if you think, all is lost, it is not ;)

@The Wayfarer: What I can see looks quite good. Granted the pic is blurry, but you do have a distinct dark to light gradient and it looks like you managed to darken the panel lines very well. Could you post pictures showing different angles? I'd like to see the sides of the shoulder baffles and the work you did on the legs. Please also post a pic with flash for comparison. I can't say anything about how smooth your gradient is with the blurriness and it is also hard to judge your placement of the highlights with just one angle. More pictures are needed ;)
And most important - what throws you off about the results? Why are you not sure you like them?

@Serrate: By all means, please post pictures. Even if you decide to redo the red. But I don't think it has to come to this.
Why do you feel it all went downhill?
I must admit I feel rather bad, because I didn't really think about the choice of miniature or handed out more thoughts on choice of miniature. After seeing the first pictures of your Enforcer III I dug out the one I had in blister and started working on it a little. The techniques I used on the Mjolnir do work, but they need some adapting because of the many small panel lines. It is more difficult to build up gradients, contrasts will be sharper - less smooth - due to the small areas, especially when highlighting you have to be careful not to thin down your paints too much and not to cover too much of a small panel. I will try to give more thoughts on such things during the next stages. Thanks for hanging in there :)

@skumm: Welcome aboard :) Looking forward to your pictures.


Spaceman

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #114 on: 08 October 2013, 06:05:58 »
Sorry I haven't been posting. I have been busy I am going to try to catch up this week.
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serrate

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #115 on: 08 October 2013, 11:25:16 »
@Serrate: By all means, please post pictures. Even if you decide to redo the red. But I don't think it has to come to this.
Why do you feel it all went downhill?
I must admit I feel rather bad, because I didn't really think about the choice of miniature or handed out more thoughts on choice of miniature. After seeing the first pictures of your Enforcer III I dug out the one I had in blister and started working on it a little. The techniques I used on the Mjolnir do work, but they need some adapting because of the many small panel lines. It is more difficult to build up gradients, contrasts will be sharper - less smooth - due to the small areas, especially when highlighting you have to be careful not to thin down your paints too much and not to cover too much of a small panel. I will try to give more thoughts on such things during the next stages. Thanks for hanging in there :)


Ok, so the issues I ran into:

(1) After adding more paint to make it lighter, I didn't at first add enough water to keep it very wash-like. This issue showed up mostly on the left shoulder, which was always my starting point.

(2) It seems that the Vallejo Iraqi Sand pigments were heavier than the Ceramcoat Black Cherry pigments. After I added Iraqi Sand to my paint, it started off well, but eventually I noticed that I wasn't getting much contrast out of it any more (I think this can be seen most obviously on the third pic of the highlighting stage below, which shows the right shoulder). I didn't realize at first that I just needed to remix my paint, and after doing so, I started picking up the lighter colored pigments again.
================

So the first stage seemed to go fairly well. I had switched over to Ceramcoat Black Cherry, since it seemed closer to the maroon that is required than my Vallejo Carnage Red. It does seem to contain a little blue in it. I went over all the panels working from dark to light.

Question 1: When you say to paint "from the shadows to the lights", is that the direction of painting the entire panel, OR do you start your stroke where the shadows mostly end and work towards the panel edge from there?

Question 2: For this stage, and the following stages, except for the last highlighting, do you keep your paint at the consistency of a wash?

Question 3: As you change the color of the paint you're working with, do you simply add the new color to the well you're currently using (as I did), or do you transfer some of that to a new well and add paint to it (thereby keeping the original mix available)?

I was somewhat pleased with the results after 2 coats, it seemed to really bring the red back, except on those panels I had already coated too darkly with shadows. Btw, before doing this, I did do 2 more rounds of shadowing on the rear panels of the right shoulder (using my new Periscopes!).





And then I added Iraqi Sand to my mix. At first I didn't have the consistency right, so I fixed that. But it just seems that if I didn't keep this mix very specifically where I wanted it, it shaded the entire panel in a way that didn't look good. I tried to focus on the edges, but often ended up with those very noticeable "highlight" edge-lining effect that doesn't look too great. About halfway through, this was where my lighter pigment began to fall out of solution, so there's some inconsistency as well.

I felt like another round of this was just going to make it worse, especially on such small panels, so I moved on to the final highlight (hitting the edges). Mixed results on that too. I wish I had known what a difference all these tiny panels were going to make, lol (you DID warn me). I'm looking forward to truly adopting a global shading/highlighting technique on the green portions. Hopefully it helps.






So....  poo.  What now?  :))


Edit: Lol, just realized I totally forgot about step 10. Will try to get to it tonight.
« Last Edit: 08 October 2013, 15:20:46 by serrate »

The Wayfarer

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #116 on: 08 October 2013, 13:25:25 »
Hope these pictures are a little better.

I'm having difficulty with this Scab Red (a color I have) and Sand highlight.  When I mix these together I get a pink or salmon color.  What am I missing?  What you see here I just highlighted with straight Kommando Khaki.  The closest I can get to the Sand you used.  And it looks harsh.  The paint job is already starting to look a little to fushcia to me.





Mike
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GunjiNoKanrei

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #117 on: 08 October 2013, 15:26:11 »
@serrate:
Ok, so the issues I ran into:

(1) After adding more paint to make it lighter, I didn't at first add enough water to keep it very wash-like. This issue showed up mostly on the left shoulder, which was always my starting point.

(2) It seems that the Vallejo Iraqi Sand pigments were heavier than the Ceramcoat Black Cherry pigments. After I added Iraqi Sand to my paint, it started off well, but eventually I noticed that I wasn't getting much contrast out of it any more (I think this can be seen most obviously on the third pic of the highlighting stage below, which shows the right shoulder). I didn't realize at first that I just needed to remix my paint, and after doing so, I started picking up the lighter colored pigments again.
================
Those Vallejo Model Color paints separate quite easily. Some more than others and some of the lighter colors are the worst. The only option is to stir the paint from time to time. At least that's what I do.

So the first stage seemed to go fairly well. I had switched over to Ceramcoat Black Cherry, since it seemed closer to the maroon that is required than my Vallejo Carnage Red. It does seem to contain a little blue in it. I went over all the panels working from dark to light.

Question 1: When you say to paint "from the shadows to the lights", is that the direction of painting the entire panel, OR do you start your stroke where the shadows mostly end and work towards the panel edge from there?
Should have mentioned this, sorry. The lighter the color gets the less of a panel/area I cover. Same with the shading - the darker the color gets, the less ground I cover (when pushing the paint).
I think some of the problems you had are a result of you covering too much of the panel with a light mix. This makes the color jumps too big and the light pigments really stand out, leaving an almost chalky finish.

Question 2: For this stage, and the following stages, except for the last highlighting, do you keep your paint at the consistency of a wash?
Well, that depends. Rule of thumb, the bigger the area/panel the thinner your color can be. So for all those small panel you have on the Enforcer I would work with slightly thicker paint, because you simply don't have the room to build up a smooth gradient with thin layers (or doing it will drive you crazy as it takes ages).

Question 3: As you change the color of the paint you're working with, do you simply add the new color to the well you're currently using (as I did), or do you transfer some of that to a new well and add paint to it (thereby keeping the original mix available)?
If I was using a wet palette (which I always want to give another shot) I would try to keep all mixes available. But as it is I just add color to the one mix I have, knowing that I can always recreate at least a close enough approximation should I need it. Sometimes when painting small areas (laser lenses, some cockpits, warning stripes, ...) I just put down the main colors and some water down on my palette and mix almost every brushload on the fly.

I was somewhat pleased with the results after 2 coats, it seemed to really bring the red back, except on those panels I had already coated too darkly with shadows. Btw, before doing this, I did do 2 more rounds of shadowing on the rear panels of the right shoulder (using my new Periscopes!).
(Yay!)

And then I added Iraqi Sand to my mix. At first I didn't have the consistency right, so I fixed that. But it just seems that if I didn't keep this mix very specifically where I wanted it, it shaded the entire panel in a way that didn't look good. I tried to focus on the edges, but often ended up with those very noticeable "highlight" edge-lining effect that doesn't look too great. About halfway through, this was where my lighter pigment began to fall out of solution, so there's some inconsistency as well.
Two things come to my mind - you covered too much of the area with the light mix, you probably had too much paint on the brush (for the small panels you are working on). Working with the slightly thicker paint should help with the small panels you are facing. On the Mjolnir I had three or four mixes for the highlights - basecolor (+ a dab of Scab Red), neat Scab Red, Scab Red + Pale Sand, previous mix + more Pale Sand. My paint and layers are thin, so I can build up the intensity slowly, I had just four mixes, but each mix was applied in many many layers before I felt it was time to go lighter. Again, with the small panel you have, building up the highlights this way is maybe not the best option. So, slightly thicker paint, applied in less layers.

I felt like another round of this was just going to make it worse, especially on such small panels, so I moved on to the final highlight (hitting the edges). Mixed results on that too. I wish I had known what a difference all these tiny panels were going to make, lol (you DID warn me). I'm looking forward to truly adopting a global shading/highlighting technique on the green portions. Hopefully it helps.

So....  poo.  What now?  :))
Ok, the bad news is, even with a more global approach on the green you have to hit all the edges with a highlight or two ;) But more on that in due time ...
For now, definitely not poo. Despite what you think, you are on the right track. What you want to do now is tone down the highlights and the chalkiness a bit and bring back the midtones. Take your basecolor, thin it down to a wash-like consistency and apply it as a glaze. A glaze is something like a thin, even, transparent filter layer applied to the whole panel/area with equal intensity, smoothing transitions and pulling everything together. Make sure there is not too much paint on the brush. If it pools, it is too much paint. Paint from light to dark and evenly cover the whole panel. This is something I did to the maroon areas at a later stage as well.

@The Wayfarer:
Hope these pictures are a little better.

I'm having difficulty with this Scab Red (a color I have) and Sand highlight.  When I mix these together I get a pink or salmon color.  What am I missing?  What you see here I just highlighted with straight Kommando Khaki.  The closest I can get to the Sand you used.  And it looks harsh.  The paint job is already starting to look a little to fushcia to me.

Mike
Thanks, Mike. The pictures are much better. I still think it looks very good, but I see what you mean. I think you probably covered too much of the area with a light mix. As already mentioned above to serrate, the lighter the mix, the less area you want to cover so the result doesn't get too bright and is dominated by a lighter color. Overall I think your highlight color is spot on though and really makes those edges stand out. In my opinion contrast is one of the most important aspects when painting miniatures.
If I still had Bleached Bone and Kommando Khaki I would have probably taken one or the other for the highlights. But I would use them neat only for the last edge highlights and only in selected areas.
Ok, what you could do is the same thing I suggested to serrate. Apply a glaze to tint the maroon areas and to bring back some of the midtones. This also tones down the highlights and smoothes out the perceived harshness. If it looks too fuchsia/salmon/pink to you try glazing with a brown. If you have it, try GW Dark Flesh. Alternatively Scorched Brown might do the trick.

Let me know if it works for you :)

Wayfarer and serrate, after the glaze I suggest you let me know what you think and step away from the miniature for a night and look at it with fresh eyes the next morning. I often do this when I am not happy with my results (which happens a lot). You could also start on the grey areas and the cockpit to distract your minds from the red. We can still tweak the maroon later if desired. But finishinh other parts and eventually moving on to the green areas might change your perception of the maroon. It worked for me ;)
« Last Edit: 08 October 2013, 15:32:18 by GunjiNoKanrei »

serrate

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #118 on: 09 October 2013, 22:00:48 »
Hey Gunji, thanks for all the help and comments! Been a busy week so far, so haven't been able to work on it yet, but I will soon.

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Re: CSO paint-along with Gunji
« Reply #119 on: 09 October 2013, 23:55:48 »
Hey Gunji, thanks for all the help and comments! Been a busy week so far, so haven't been able to work on it yet, but I will soon.

My blood red vallejo game color had the same issue your having. Remove the top and put the handle of a crappy brush into the pot and stir.  Ill bet a lance of mechs theirs sludge at the bottom. If there is stir it up and use the handle to press down and break it up (think mash potatoes).  After you have it mostly back to a liquid form throw in a piece of metal blister or a stainless steal ball bearing or something else with weight.  Screw cap back on and shake the crap out of it. You should hear it bouncing around and be able to feel the paint swishing, if not the sludge at it.

After that my bloody red was cured and all my worries vanished :p
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