Author Topic: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?  (Read 2846 times)

Cowdragon

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2921
  • PM me for Ft. Collins CO battletech games
Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« on: 04 February 2018, 13:56:20 »
Wondering how accurate people think the BV is when factoring in C3 Networks.

While I LOVE C3 technology (all of them) two of them are extremely easy to shut down with ECM (C3i and standard C3) and two of them are almost restrictively heavy, especially the latter (standard C3 and Boosted C3). Those last two are also completely shut down with the loss of the command unit.

Thoughts on this?

On wings of steel, Come I, Pillars of flame
Mark me, Fury bright as suns, Foes fear
The star back road, I hunt, Blood geld payment
Shan't be, The ravens throne, Blod Orn
- vidar (thank you vidar!!!)
Pie or Spehs and Tanks also BA

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #1 on: 04 February 2018, 14:20:45 »
My thoughts:

C3 is dramatically overpriced in BV. To the extent that you should never use C3 in BV-balanced gameplay.

OTOH, in PV balanced gameplay (i.e. Alpha Strike) C3 is priced to be one half of the price of a skill upgrade for the unit. And that's it.  No more multiplying based on how many units are in the network... C3 is baked in whether it's a 4 unit network or a 12 unit network.  Of course you're paying for the C3 even if it's not networked at all, but it's such a small price that while it's not optimized you're not killing the balance either.  Besides, if you have 1 C3 unit, you can probably find a way to wring a couple more and make at least a 4 unit network :D

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #2 on: 04 February 2018, 14:48:21 »
and two of them are almost restrictively heavy, especially the latter (standard C3 and Boosted C3).
Weight cannot be really tweaked. This requires adjusting units.
This said, given the benefits of C3, one to four units paying 5 tons for the network is not terribly steep price, provided the command units are otherwise smart.
I see C3 vulnerability to jamming to be far bigger issue given the cost.

One option to possibly make C3 worth its price would be to make it immune to Guardian ECM (but not Angel), and make Boosted C3 immune to Angel ECM.
This way, you'd pay quite a lot for C3 but you also could make good use of it without a single ECM breaking everything. Might be too expensive still though.
And this would reduce worth of ECM a bit though, would mere BAP and Artemis (and Streak for Angel) immunity be worth it? Especially given that under standard rules BAP is basically death weight already. But this is not perhaps a big loss, as currently ECM makes C3 near worthless... Slight buff to BAP's usefulness (eg making the to-hit bonus through obstruction standard) could balance things neatly.

Adjusting cost is slightly more difficult.
PV-like system is hard to use with BV, since value of C3 depends heavily on a unit's equipment. Large bank of small lasers with C3 is not nearly as good as several large lasers with C3, so static/slightly scaling price is not really viable. Simpler in AS since weapons have unified ranges.
Baking C3 into BV calculations for an unit is possible but work-intensive. Say, C3 cost takes account the 'Mech's medium and long range attack totals, possibly modified by heat, etc. Naturally this leads to this cost being there always, discouraging use of C3-equipped units in games that don't involve C3. This is less of a problem in Alpha Strike which features (optional) systems that make use of C3 units even without C3 network, and because AS unit variants tend to be more similar to each other so finding a replacement is possibly easier.
Simply lowering the cost percentage is possible, say 2.5% or 2%. Finding a good value would require extensive testing though, and comparison of near perfection execution to poor use. I figure the current price is high because perfect use C3 should be pretty damn strong, but naturally this assumes ECM is not an issue for whatever reason. But would lowered price be enough to make C3 viable as long as ECM is as powerful against C3 as it is now?

EDIT I'm inclined to think that my jamming-immunity solution might be the easiest and best solution.
If it is too powerful, we can nerf C3 a bit in other ways: We'll bring back the LOS-requirement between the attacker, spotter and target. Or however the system was before errata was issued with BMM. Or implement some other restriction.
« Last Edit: 04 February 2018, 14:53:50 by Empyrus »

Alsadius

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 926
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #3 on: 04 February 2018, 14:52:30 »
I'd probably rate C3 at less than half its current BV cost, much like how I think pilot upgrades are grossly overcosted.

If you look at how weapon BV is calculated, the current formula for C3 is grossly overpriced. For example, a PPC is BV 176, whereas if you assume C3 always works perfectly and gives you short range(i.e., range brackets go from 3/6/12/18 to 3/18/18/18), the BV would be 238(per http://www.heavymetalpro.com/bv_calc.htm). That's an increase of 35% to the weapon, or perhaps 20% to a typical mech if that happens to all of its weapons. A full-company C3 network increases BV by 60%, or three times as much. And C3 can be interrupted by ECM, or torn apart by killing scouts and command units. Right now, two mechs with C3i is probably roughly fair(+10% is passable for that), but any larger force is just silly.

If I was house-ruling it, I'd say increase the force's BV by 10% for having two connected units, and +1% for each extra unit beyond the first two. That's 12% for a lance, 14% for a C3i net, and 20% for a company, which feels usable. Add another 1% for each C3 boosted master that's controlling at least one C3 boosted slave. It's also quick and easy to calculate.

Cowdragon

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2921
  • PM me for Ft. Collins CO battletech games
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #4 on: 04 February 2018, 15:13:17 »
Loving the ideas here! And simplicity is my friend, as I'm trying to teach my son. He's using a C3i with artillery support (8 mechs and 4 vehicles) for his company while I'm using 10 mechs and 2 BA squads all connected to a Standard C3 network.

Someone up above said something about making BAP (and I assume the upgraded Bloodhound Active Probe) have some advantages on the tabletop standard game, and I'm super intrigued by that as well! Thinking, maybe reduce cover by 1 for BAP and 2 for Bloodhound? But only for cover like trees and smoke and stuff. Not mountains of course. Sound about fair?

On wings of steel, Come I, Pillars of flame
Mark me, Fury bright as suns, Foes fear
The star back road, I hunt, Blood geld payment
Shan't be, The ravens throne, Blod Orn
- vidar (thank you vidar!!!)
Pie or Spehs and Tanks also BA

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #5 on: 04 February 2018, 15:35:27 »
Someone up above said something about making BAP (and I assume the upgraded Bloodhound Active Probe) have some advantages on the tabletop standard game, and I'm super intrigued by that as well! Thinking, maybe reduce cover by 1 for BAP and 2 for Bloodhound? But only for cover like trees and smoke and stuff. Not mountains of course. Sound about fair?

TacOps/BattleMech Manual has optional rules for BAP/BhAP: Reduce to-hit penalty from smoke or forests (etc.) by 1 total, and this bonus can be passed on to other members of C3 network.
It is not much but it is simple enough it could easily be a standard rule and make BAP a bit more useful. As it is, the only thing BAP does is to spot hidden units.

I think Bloodhound spots stealth units (stealth, Void Signature, Null Sig andChameleon) and hidden units with ECM? Either way, your suggestion of increasing the penalty reduction to 2 total could work making it better as well.

YingJanshi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4511
  • Switch Friend Code: SW-4326-4622-8514
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #6 on: 04 February 2018, 16:03:24 »
It's not tournament legal, but using ECCM is really a must on a heavy ECM battlefield, especially if using C3.

Initiate of the Order of Valhalla

(HBS: Backer #4,960)
(Clan Invasion: Backer #314)
(Mercenaries: Backer #6,017)

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Technology Discussion: C3 Network and Battle Value?
« Reply #7 on: 04 February 2018, 18:12:20 »
Yeah, but ECCM is messy. Who does what, adding things together, etc. It is even more stuff to track in already complex game. No, it is not terribly difficult but it is slightly bothersome
Of course, customized rules are not tournament legal either.  [blank]

Also, a problem with optional rules is that they aren't really BV-compatible. Most of them do come with drawbacks, to be sure, so they are kinda self-balancing. But not entirely, and some things are situational, meaning the benefits might be far greater than drawbacks. (We'll ignore that BV itself is not, naturally, perfect.)
Of course, optional rules are made to be cherry picked rather than enabling them all.


Honestly, i think the whole EWAR aspect of BattleTech requires redoing. Purpose, effects and function all.
As it is, ECM is rather boring and BAP worthless. ECM is highly useful field that, for small mass investment, negates Artemis and makes sure no one is bothering with C3 along with its extra cost. Real ECM jammers can be apparently directionally focused. This idea could be used to turn ECM into a weapon-like effect ("targeted unit has penalty to weapon use"), as could the BAP ("scan target, it is now easier target for everyone").
Of course, any such changes easily add even more complexity to the game...