Author Topic: BattleSea, BVR Map Combat Concept, and new Wet Warship building rules  (Read 407 times)

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
So while I was thinking about how I'd want the arms to be introduced in a theoretical new line of sourcebooks I put Naval Units and Aircraft in the new TacOps book. This seemed like a logical split for some of the more niche units (except VTOLs we all see to many of those guys) in the game that complicate things. However, it made me think of an idea, using BattleSea as the tutorial for BattleSpace, a Capital Combat game with a much slower frame of reference, and a similar level of interface using the low-atmosphere map dynamics.

As it is presently Wet Naval Warships and other Vessels suffer from some major drawbacks (things being to heavy or not having enough item slots). However, designing them closer to how space Warships are built might work, so I began to tinker. My first draft of my design sheet and record sheet is attached for review and is a hodgepodge of both heavy Support Vehicle and Space Warship design while allowing enough mass to mount some capital weapons for map scale devastation. It even actually makes Naval Gauss rather effective unlike in space due to its long range IMO which I am really excited to play out.

BattleSea ships have Large Craft ECM, Capital Armor, and SI like their spaceborne counterparts but cannot be as tough (but can still take same damage) due to their need to float on water. They can have one Capital Weapon Bay per 10,000 tons and things like flight decks and helipads take up these deck slots as well. There are four damage locations but I was thinking of doing critical damage tables like a Warship where deck objects can be damaged by a critical hit like Broadside bays.

Each location (Fore/Aft Port and Starboard) has a 12 weapon limit like a Dropship with a similar increase in fire control for more and can fire in a 120 (three hex) arc allowing them to overlap with adjacent bays at the extreme. Capital Weapons can be put into turrets which can rotate everywhere but their opposite facing for projecting broadsides or as a main gun. Missiles don't need to do that but could have a direct fire arm launcher instead of a Bearings-Only Vertical Launch (with the commiserate targeting penalty). Power Amplifiers are required for Capital Energy weapons but not standard ones. The vessel must be heat neutral and possesses a base heat dissipation based on engine mass like a Warship.

Artillery Grade Weapons have longer flight times compared to Capital Weapons but bays of them can be bracketed the same way.
Cruise Missiles are teleoperated via datalink from their launching ship in the same manner as regular T missiles.

The Basic set up is that each player (or side) sets up the Flotilla arrangement and marks that with a token (or notes a hex) on the bigger Ocean Map which Aerospace Units move on. Find your target then shoot them.

Necessary Chapters
Artillery, Double Blind, Large Naval Vessels and Satellites - TacOps
Low Atmosphere Flying and Basic Aerospace Rules - Total Warfare
Capital Weapons Fire in Atmosphere, Electronic Warfare - Strategic Ops

Inspired by Large Aerospace Craft (StratOps) and Support Vehicle Construction (TechManual) rules

Present Added Rules and Clarifications
Surface to Surface fire doesn't preclude direct fire Capital weapons for any units capable of mounting them. Within 17 Hexes all Capital Weapons resolve their attacks simultaneously, beyond that the rules are unchanged.

Battlesea Vessel visual horizon limit is 12 Map-Sheets. RADAR range is 2x that and SONAR 3x. Any fire beyond their sensor range (as modified by any NCSS improvements added) requires a spotter, satellite, or must be teleoperated and thus subject to jamming. Aerospace units have a visual horizon range of 20 at Atmospheric Row 1. At Altitudes above that it increases by 8. These all have a similar 2x RADAR range. Unless using dipping SONAR Aerospace units do not have that ability.
Max Altitudes by Unit Type VTOL Units Max Altitude = 2, WiGE = 1 Airships = 4, Conventional Aerospace = 10

Surface to Air (or Sub-Surface) attacks are resolved as usual for Ground to Air fire (and Capital Weapons vs Aerospace). Any Altitude/Depth adds +2 MS of Range compared to the map-sheet that vehicle occupies, for both parties. Surface to Sub-Surface attacks follow a similar formula.

Air to Sub-Surface attacks (and underwater launched Anti-Air Missiles) range is determined by 1+range+(altitude and/or depth)x2 for determining target distance in MS.

Energy Weapons cannot fire at anything the unit cannot visually see (which makes them good for shooting air targets but less so for surface ones). Ballistic and Missiles weapons however can as they can do indirect fire.

Unlike Space Warships a Battlesea Vessel doesn't need to carry 10 rounds of fire for each weapon, you could even have just one. Teleoperated Weapons such as Cruise Missiles require guidance throughout so salvo size is a factor in design. Weapon magazines are reloaded at the same rate as a Space Warship.

Cruise Missiles have a Max Aerospace Speed of 6 and are treated as air-breathing conventional fighter drones flying at altitude 1 during their transit for all intensive purposes with armor equal to half its warhead size. An Alamo (50-70) or Santa Ana (90-130) class Nuclear or similar Chemical/Biological Warhead can be added to them but it reduces unit speed and range by half. In 'terminal' phase (within 6 hexes of their target) they gain all the same modifiers to hit as a Capital Missile for interception purposes.

Gorgon

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 800
  • The little duchy that could
That is a very cool idea. Makes wet navy ships so much more interesting than under the SV or mobile structure rules currently used.

Just so I understand the intent correctly, under your rules capital weapons beyond missiles are allowed surface to surface attacks? Would that be limited to ships or also apply to mobile structures and buildings? Do capital weapons fired at conventional ground forces suffer the same penalty as WarShip weapons against ASF? Do they cause AOE damage as orbit to surface fire does? Is bracketing a thing for surface vessels? What about AAA mode for capital laser?
Jude Melancon lives!

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
All the standard rules apply for capital weapons from Space Warships and Battlesea Vessels including the penalties for shooting targets under 500 tons (which would include most ground targets), NL AAA mode, and Bracket Firing. Cruise Missiles as teleoperated entities could also be independently targeted by aerospace fighters or interceptor weapons using the same rules for anti-missile defense as Space Warships, just at the standard scale. This makes them pretty good 'light' weapons for smaller missile boats that cannot mount a CWB or submarines for Anti-Ship or Strike use.

Standard weapons would have a threat bubble around their ship like below.
Short - Own Hex
Medium - Radius 1
Long - Radius 2
Extreme - Radius 3

Under these rules surface to surface attacks with direct fire weapons are allowed with the range in map sheets for anything that can mount them. I was thinking very Ace Combat with this concept, so an adversary's Coastal Artillery could very well be a Heavy Naval Gauss Cannon which would be frankly terrifying. I am going to say standard AOE rules for Artillery and Capital Missiles for simplicity (I'd even say give these a bonus to hit a single target due to AOE damage). There is no AOE for Direct Fire Ballistic and Energy Capital but probably 'penetrating' fire like the Missed Shot rule would be in effect if the target isn't struck.

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10180
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
Looks very awesome. I always wanted large naval ship design rules and a system to make it.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
Feel free to report anything you find messing around with it. I'm going to try some demos and see what needs work as well.

I think the present state actually makes range useful compared to space as fighters have max approach speeds and Battlesea Ships armed with Capital Weapons would be as against assault dropships as their spacebound counterparts.

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1717
So I'm guessing this is a 500m hex scale, same as the aerotech maps?  So the heavy naval PPC in atmosphere would shoot for 50 hexes up at air targets, but to horizon limit surface to surface?  So about 24 hexes is the horizon limit.  Could do levels too, at level 0 (most surface vessles) you have 12 hexes of direct horizon, at elevation level 1 (big ships) you have 24 hexes of direct LOS for the horizon.  Or, if you dont like levels, the average of 17 is useful cribbing from artillery ranges.  Within 17 you have to direct fire, and 18 hexes and up its the horizon limit and you have to shoot indirect/artillery style.

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
I added something to the OP about that, Visual radius is 12 MS, RADAR x2, SONAR x3 (although for Subs its x4). Aerospace 20+8 for each Altitude above 1 with similar x2 RADAR.

Energy can only shoot at what it can see as energy doesn't arc. I think this is a pretty good compromise. Lasers are after all good against Aerospace so they would be your primary weapons for an Air-Defense vessel while Ballistics would be your go to for Anti-Surface warfare. Missile and Torpedoes remain a swiss army knife.

Proposed (Anti-)Submarine Warfare Rules
Explosions do 2x damage underwater which helps to offset the heavier potential armor that Submarines can mount due to their heavier structure while still making them vulnerable. It also makes torpedoes a serious threat to any other warship.

When on the surface a submarine is treated as a surface ship for detection and LOS purposes.

Underwater Depths - These are treated just like Altitudes although are significantly smaller ranges (because water is heavy), regular submarine combat vehicles cannot go beneath Depth 5 while Battlesea Capital Submarines can reach down to 10. They must however be no greater than Depth 2 in order to launch underwater missile strikes or receive surface communications.

Underwater Sensor and Communications rules - At Depth 1 (Periscope Depth) Submarines have half LOS for both Visual and RADAR detection above the water but can be visually or RADAR spotted at a similar half range. Beneath Depth 1 they only have SONAR and comms with the surface but cannot be detected except via SONAR and MagScan. Beneath Depth 5 they lose comms with the surface for however long they remain submerged.

SONAR like other Double Blind Sensors have a short, medium, long range bracket which differs based on the vehicle type. Subs have 16, 32, 48 MS Range while Surface Ships have 12, 24, 36 MS Range.

Anti-Submarine/Submarine Gear
Dipping SONAR - 8 tons, A VTOL or Airship can hover above the water and can use SONAR sensor rules with a radius of 3 MS to detect underwater vessels or hazards.
Magnetic Anomaly Detector - 8 tons, A superior version of the Magscan. An Aircraft moving at Cruise or less can use MagScan rules to detect the presence of underwater vessels beneath its flightpath (and adjacent lines) but not well enough for a target track.
SONAR Remote Buoy Launcher - 4 tons, 8 shots, Any aircraft can dispense SONAR buoys which provide a R1 detection zone for underwater vessels or hazards. These drift based on air and sea movement.
Depth Charge - 1 bomb slot, treat as a dive bomb, ADCs detonate at a certain depth chosen upon launch. Each deals 10 standard damage.
Hedgehog Depth Charge Discharger (OS) - 10 tons, Any vessel or aircraft mounting a Hedgehog can saturate a map sheet (at a particular depth) with explosives. Treated as a regular Depth Charge attack but rolls on a 10 Cluster roll. Range 2 MS
Capital SONAR Decoy - 10 tons, Apply a +1 penalty to hit to the Torpedo for each released in a Mapsheet.
Seabolt Torpedoes - Thunderbolt Missiles in Torpedo form (just like LRT and SRT launcher types).
Sharkfin Light Torpedoes - Arrow IV Torpedoes, MS Range 4, Same Warhead types (including Davy Crockett-M) twice as much damage because they explode underwater.

Anti-Missile Defense
Same as Space rule with the following additions.
Anti-Missile Systems only fire once per turn.
Arrow IV systems can launch their standard array of missiles including Air-Defense Arrows which can intercept incoming missiles of all types.
Artillery Guns also have their full array of ordnance including Flak for firing against Cruise Missiles (just like any airbreathing fighter).
Doing 10 Standard Damage adds +1 to hit for any incoming Large (Cruise, Sub-Cap, or Cap) missile regardless of when that damage occurs (during transit or in terminal phase).

Alternate Ammo Types
Thunderbolt RAM (Rolling Air Frame) - The Thunderbolt missile is a very large and heavy standard missile which made it ideal for upgrading with better targeting systems compared to the smaller long range or extended long range missiles. These RAM Interceptors use Air-Defense Arrow target modifiers but deal their standard damage like any other weapon.
"Kingfisher" ASROC (Anti-Submarine Rocket) - An alternate warhead type for Cruise Missiles "Kingfisher" ASROCs resolve those attacks as the inverse of an underwater launched Surface to Surface weapon (with a +3 to hit and 1 round 'terminal plunge' delay). Submarines not at Depth 1 cannot detect or engage "Kingfisher" ASROCs unless they have a friendly spotter and are otherwise in a position to do so. Target Depth needs to be decided at launch and cannot be greater than 5 with the commiserate range penalty (+2 MS per Depth). A Kingfisher will engage the first target it encounters within its target hex.

Mollusk Heavy Torpedoes
Similar to Cruise Missiles Heavy Torpedoes move at a Max Speed of 3 with half the range of their airbreathing counterpart in MS. These are treated as combat submersible robots (aggressive) as opposed to drones like their airbreathing counterparts and travel at Depth 1. Unaffected by Capital ECM bonus to defense. Can be targeted by standard weapons, submersibles, depth charges, and even your own Heavy torpedoes just like missile intercepts. Like the Airbreathing Cruise Missiles an Alamo (CM/50-70) or Santa Ana (90-110) Nuclear Warhead can be fitted instead of a conventional warhead with another half reduction in range (but not speed). Base to hit 5

Cuttlefish CM/50 | Nautilus CM/70 | Octopus CM/90 | Giant Squid CM/110

idea weenie

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4885
Can the wet Warships mount Naval-grade cannons?

Figure something like this:
Mass: 125 tons
Max accurate range: 70 500-m hexes
Max range: 90 500-m hexes
Ammunition: 1.5 tons per shot (1200 kg shell and 300 kg powder)

Damage: not sure yet

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
Can the wet Warships mount Naval-grade cannons?

Figure something like this:
Mass: 125 tons
Max accurate range: 70 500-m hexes
Max range: 90 500-m hexes
Ammunition: 1.5 tons per shot (1200 kg shell and 300 kg powder)

Damage: not sure yet

Those are basically Sub-Capital Cannons and the answer is yes; as long as it is over 10kilotons. You need to be 20 kilotons to have both forward and aft Capital Weapons Bay. An Iowa Class Battleship sized Battlesea Vessel could mount 4 CWBs.

Attached is the same excel sheet I have in my Warships Guide so you can look over the possibilites.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37418
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
It's "Cuttlefish", btw... ;)

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
It's "Cuttlefish", btw... ;)

Lol, but they're so cute, almost hypnotizingly so. If I only I could just give them a hug.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37418
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
I suppose they're cute if you like tentacles... ;D

AlphaMirage

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3656
Battlesea Mine Warfare
Naval mines are a serious hazard to waterborne vehicles and come in three types. Navigating these hazards is determined the same way as standard minefields in TacOps with a commiserate density rating. The basic naval mine weighs 0.5 ton, has an attack power of 10 standard, and the mine dispenser item carries two.

Surface mines can also be of the Inferno or EMP type and are assumed to be Active unless specified as Command-Operated. It is up to the deploying unit which mode their mines are operating in, whether they anchor them or let it drift (in the direction of prevailing winds or tides), and when (if ever) they will self-destruct (for the safety of friendly ships).

SONAR and MagScan can detect underwater mines like submersibles but since they are designed with stealth (and do not have any active propulsion) in mind they are treated as having Stealth Armor in the ECM/Stealth table.

Types of Naval Mine Hazards
Depth - Any vessel moving at a specified depth that enters a mined MS rolls to see if it brushes within the effective range of a mine. At Depth 1 all surface ships must make this roll, at Depth 2 only those using the D and E Template (12,000+ tons displacement) must do so. Submarines occupy their depth and the next below in a similar fashion.
Surface - Any object moving across the water's surface (including hovercraft and WiGE) makes the check to see if they are hit by a mine while transiting a mined map-sheet.
Bottom - Bottom mines are anchored on the 'bottom' of a mined mapsheet. Anything within one of that Depth or traversing across it (like Battlemechs) are at risk of being hit by them.

Mine Laying/Sweeping Gear
Amphibious Warfare Ramp - An AWR is treated as a helipad but used for deploying capital mines and/or Vehicles/Battlemechs. Unlike the helipad however it can be used by submarines while submerged.
Heavy Minesweeper - Weighs 20 tons with an armor rating of 100, can disable surface or depth mines one depth lower than the ship (<12,000 Depth 2, >12,000 Depth 3 assuming a surface ship Depth+2 and +3 for Submarines) using the same rules as regular minesweepers (which can only reach Depth 1 mines)

The following can be 'launched' (that is placed in an adjacent hex) from any Heavy Torpedo launcher or via an AWR.
Hydra Capital Mine - Massing 5 tons a Hydra Capital Mine does 50 standard damage (x2 for underwater explosion unless in surface mode) at a specified depth throughout a map-sheet when triggered. It can however be destroyed with 25 points of damage without triggering its self-destruct setting.
Poseidon Nuclear Capital Mine - Massing 10 tons an Poseidon Nuclear Mine incorporates an Alamo Warhead within its pressure casing (which is no harder than a Hydra). These devastating weapons can obliterate complete fleets or deny entire harbors if undetected but are typically left inactive until a specified time on the bottom to prevent them from drifting out of place.

Lycanphoenix

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 190
  • Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
    • Message me on Telegram
Wouldn't mind also seeing some updates to make underwater combat more fun in general~!

 

Register