Author Topic: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk  (Read 38686 times)

Iron Mongoose

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Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« on: 28 January 2011, 00:16:21 »
Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk

In the beginning, there were no games; it was all people could do to survive.  Eventually, as powerful leaders began to bring people together, societies were able to form, and as divisions of labor were refined and agriculture became a dominant food source, people began to have enough free time for recreation in an organized way.  Fast forward ten thousand years, to 1984.  Battletech is created, and its stars are 16 battlemechs, their images taken from a Japanese cartoon.  One is the Shadow Hawk SHD-2H.

That is the context in which we must understand this famous mech.  Unlike my recent designs, this mech is old, both from a real world and an in-universe standpoint.  In many ways, it is primitive; when it was designed there was only one type of autocannon, and not the twenty two we now enjoy.  There were only a hand full of other mechs, and no other types of units at all.  Armor was armor, heatsinks were heatsinks, and weapons were short ranged and weak.

How did the Shadow Hawk fit into all this?  To start with, it was a member of what is now known as the 55 ton trio, along side the Griffin and Wolverine.  Like them, it moved at a good clip of 5/8, though it’s jumping ability of only three hexes was a bit sub par.  The three hex jump has always bothered me, but it has always allowed the Shadow Hawk to surmount difficult terrain; it just takes longer than its fleet brothers.  The Shadow Hawk’s armor, while not thin at 9.5 tons, was average for the day, being less than the Wolverine and Hunchback and equal to the Griffin, but superior to the later slow medium mechs, and of course far above the smaller fast mediums.  When taken with its speed and maneuverability, it made the Shadow Hawk a tough kill in its day.  Even to the present, it can soak up a Gauss rifle hit to any forward location, and if someone thinks enough of an old Shadow Hawk to spend a Gauss slug on it, you need to get it some better lance mates.

Unfortunately, the Shadow Hawk’s arsenal is not a model of efficacy.  Its centerpiece is the autocannon.  No number needed, just the autocannon, which we’ve come to know and love as the AC 5.  There’s a lot to be said about that weapon, but most of it has already been said, so I’ll leave you to read the relevant threads on your own.  Suffice it to say, the Shadow Hawk needs more.  It tries to answer that with a LRM 5, but that is not enough.  A 10 point long range punch is not going to cut it, by and large.  At short range, it can bring a medium laser and a SRM 2 into the picture, right as the LRMs go out of it.  If it lucks out, it can do 19 points of damage.  One more would produce the possibility of a PSR. 

The up side to all this: a grotesquely over the top 12 heatsinks make this one of the few level 1 alpha babies.  It can jump forever while firing till its ammo runs dry and not care.  This, along with its wide array of different weapons types, makes the Shadow Hawk a popular first mech to learn on, in contrast to the heat hog mechs so common in the era.

In the end, the Shadow Hawk is best suited for supporting other, better mech.  It can fight equally poorly at any range, and it will not go down fast, allowing it to hold the line while long ranged Griffins and brawling Wolverines do their job.  Its speed allows it to work with lighter mechs, as the AC 5 is a bit scary to Wasps and Stingers, and a one hex movement advantage is not a whole lot when you’re looking at a 9 hex range deficit.

Fixes?  Let’s see what the houses had to say:

The Davions rolled out the 2D as their fix.  Addressing the woeful lack of power, they doubled the complement of SRMs and medium lasers.  Sadly, they also doubled the number of fixed heatsinks, and while not an alpha baby the 2D is still a cool running mech, due to the problems in using LRMs and SRMs simultaneously.  They also halved the armor.  Had they doubled it like every thing else, this would have been a dream mech, but they had to make cuts somewhere, and 4.5 tons is not a whole lot of armor.  Seeing as the main gain in power came in the close range, it seems they intended to make a brawler, and that is something that requires a lot more armor.  About the only mechs this variant can take are other under gunned mechs from the era, such as the Hermes II, or even the base model 2H with a bit of luck.  On the whole, a real stinker, and proof that the Davions don’t get all the good tech.

The other fix comes from the Combine.  With their love of the PPC being strong at the time, they took the natural step of putting one on the Shadow Hawk, at the expense of its AC.  As with all such conversions, it worked wonders, doubling the punch at the expense of heat, which the Shadow Hawk has never had a problem with.  The Combine designers must not have remembered that, sadly, and they took the unnecessary step of removing the short ranged weapons for heatsinks, bringing the count to 17.  As a result, the new 2K is still cold as ice, but at what a sacrifice; it lacks the ability to fight well in close, and it still can’t force a PSR.  However, the ability to provide PPC and LRM support continuously is rare in the era, and that makes the 2K the best of the group.  Just be sure to give it some support (Jenners would do nicely).

And so the Shadow Hawk was played with.  People came to love it and hate it.  It found its way into a number of novels, and became well known.  Then the world came down around it.  The advance of technology that came forced players to revaluate the old stand bys like the Shadow Hawk, as the Clans mowed such mechs down by the dozen, and new level two mechs came up to hold the line.  The Shadow Hawk’s key assets were gone; double heatsinks meant every mech could run cool as ice, and ER PPCs and Gauss rifles brought a whole new level of long ranged combat into the game.  Even the old war horse’s durability was called into question by the advent of CASE.  Even the best of the bunch, the 2K, was only barely passable.  So it was that the old mech was given another look, to see if life could be breathed back into it.

The Davions gave it the old collage try, but their track record with the mech was poor, and it seems the apple falls close to the tree.  The 2D2 is a very basic rework of the old, lackluster 2D.  The paired SRM 2s are upgraded to streak models, always a welcome change.  Two heatsinks were lost, which is less of a problem than ever, given the streak nature of the missiles.  Lastly, the armor was upgraded to Ferro Fibrous and two tons were added, and though no one will ever say a 55 ton mech is well protected by 6.5 tons of armor, it’s a huge improvement.  Compared to the three variants we’ve seen so far, this looks like a real winner, but it’s important to look at what was not done, as well.  The mech still lacks double heatsinks, and so wastes two tons on additional singles.  It still jumps only three hexes, which will do little to confuse even a green Clan gunner.  It still makes use of the old autocannon, unchanged since Battle Droids, despite the availability of a newer model.  Lastly, CASE is neglected, though perhaps that’s a good move, as it will get these mechs out of service faster.  Looks like the Davions blew all their technological munch on the JaggerMech.  Oh, wait…

Thankfully, at least one great house was able to look at the Shadow Hawk and see a winner.  The Free Worlds League, always out for a buck, cranked out the 5M in their first attempt at a Shadow Hawk.  It’s also the first true next generation model, and boy does it show.  An XL engine is the first step, freeing up the tonnage to make some real positive changes and Endo Steel is added to help in that task.  One of those free tons is put into the armor, and at 10.5 tons it’s the toughest variant yet, in spite of the XL engine, as both torsos are CASEd to keep these gems in the field as long as possible. 

The real change here is the weapons array.  Only the medium laser remains, and as it’s still the best weapon in the game, that is forgivable.  The old AC has become an Ultra model, for double the damage, and the LRM rack is up to a massive 20 rack, for quadruple the damage.  A good thwack from the new Shadow Hawks ‘secondary’ weapon can do more damage than the whole 2H was capable of.  The down side to this is a lack of ammo, only a single ton, but the LRMs are likely still thought of as secondary, and draining that ammo has the up side of keeping the mech alive longer.  Lastly, the SRM is a streak model.  This impressive battery is kept cool by a Shadow Hawk first: double heatsinks, ten of which keep the 5M just as frosty as ever.  Most importantly to me, this is the first Shadow Hawk to jump for 5 hexes.

The FWL hit a home run with this baby and none too soon.  A good long ranged support mech was desperately needed to keep up with the Clans, and compared to some of the atrocities that crawled out of the 3050 TRO, this was a god send.  I still put it to use up to the present day, where it serves with distinction.  Able to hit at range, and thus keep it’s fragile XL out of harm’s way, and use it’s new found mobility to keep there, this is what Shadow Hawk pilots had waited for from day one.

More time passed.  An ugly legal battle prevented the image of the Shadow Hawk from being used, and interest in the mech waned.  The old company was sold, and a new one stepped in.  To raise interest, they put out a new TRO that contained all the oldest mechs.  The Shadow Hawk was given a new lease on life.

This time around, the damn Davions just had to have one last chance to redeem them selves, and this time, they made the most of it.  They finaly upped the armor to reasonable levels, matching the old 5M’s standard with 9.5 tons of the good stuff.  They kept the twin medium lasers of the old 2D2, as well as the standard engine and advanced frame, and they kept the number of SRMs constant while consolidating them into a four pack.  Thankfully, the AC is gone, and in it’s place is a Rotary AC 5.  This alone would have made this a workable mech, but the move to double heatsinks seals the deal.  The loss of the LRMs is not really noticeable on this high power variant, that finaly gives the Davions their infighting Shadow Hawk.  They even fixed the jump jet problem by mounting five, and added CASE.  It’s only problem comes from ammo; two tons for the RAC can run dry quickly in the hands of an aggressive pilot, lasting only 7 turns at full bore, and so the 5D is the first Shadow Hawk to have ammo issues for it’s AC.

The FWL was not content to sit by and watch their Shadow Hawk be surpassed, and so they made a new one of their own.  The 7M is a simple switch of the main two weapons; the LRM is down graded to a 15 and the AC becomes a light gauss rifle.  The new signature weapon of the FWL, it finds a home on this support mech, and I feel fits in nicely.  Ammo woes are alleviated a little, though it’s still not superb.  All in all, a worthy successor to the solid 5M.

The final variant was produced by ComStar, who must have been suffering from a lack of mechs following the loss of Terra.  Keeping the main features of the classic Shadow Hawk, the 7CS is the fist next generation version to lack SRMs and standard medium lasers.  Rather, a pair of ER mediums make up the close range punch, while the long ranged punch is handled by the classic one two of autocannon and missiles; an Ultra 5 and LRM 15 in this case, supplemented by some nifty fire control equipment and packing two tons of ammo a piece.  A run of the mill Artemis IV fire control helps the missiles out, but it’s the C3i system that makes this mech a real gem.  As part of a team, something a Shadow Hawk should be at all times any way, it can reign down accurate fire in support of its mates.  It uses the new gold standard for movement, 5/8/5, and so it can keep pace with fleet in fighting mechs, and 10.5 tons of old armor should keep its XL engine from harm.

These designs were well received, by and large, and the revival of the old classics lead to more playing time for the Shadow Hawk.  Things could have ended well there, but they did not.  As time passed, new weapons were introduced, and new rules and mechs were needed to showcase them.  It would have been simple to make new mechs to do this, but a different approach was taken. The very oldest mechs were once again called into service to mount the newest tech, and the Shadow Hawk again gave its service to the game with a part of ground breaking variants.

The first is the 9D, the first fourth generation mech from a house that’s given it a go every time.  True to their roots, they messed things up.  It starts will, with a new light engine.  Protected by 185 points of light FF armor, and with CASEd torsos, it is the toughest Shadow Hawk yet.  It needs to be, as its main gun is a new Light AC 5.  The weakest main gun to appear on a Shadow Hawk yet, it lacks range compared to even the 2H.  Backing it up is a medium pulse laser, which while powerful also lacks range in a bad way.  At 5/8/5, it can close in well enough, but it’s not ideal.  On the up side, both weapons are tied to a targeting computer, and with the new precision rounds likely in mind, shots at a -3 TN are not out of the question.  While it seems silly, hunting little mechs has always been a role the Shadow Hawk did well.  Backing the accurate weapons is a system that the poor mech has been crying out for: the MML.  A pair of 5s round out the offensive systems, for the first time combining the LRM and SRM abilities in one set of systems.  When taken with the mech’s C3 slave, it becomes clear that the 9D was intended to follow in its predecessors’ foot steps as an infighter, and with accurate fire and 10 SRMs, it does that well.  It even lends its self to team play, in classic Shadow Hawk fashion, though the versatility of the MMLs means it can shoot its’ self in and work alone better than most of its brothers.

The last Shadow Hawk is the 11CS.  Despite its fifth generation tag, it is really a second generation mech, as the spiritual successor to the 2K.  As only the second Shadow Hawk not to mount an autocannon of some type, it has big shoes to fill.  Twin ER mediums and an Artemis IV guided LRM 15 are holdovers from the 7CS, but the light engine and shell of 178 points of light FF are new.  Also new is the main gun, a Snub nosed PPC.  Bet that was a let down?  You were expecting the Heavy, huh?  Me too.  As is, the close ranged PPC contrasts poorly with the LRMs, leaving this mech with a poorly defined role, in stark contrast to the sniper 2K.  It also has heat problems, a rarity for Shadow Hawks, as its hot running ER mediums and PPC are all it can take standing still; adding in the LRMs or moving is too much.  On the up side, it can work as a very flexible member of a C3i team, either supporting or moving in as needed, in a way similar to the jack of all trades 2H in decades past.  Having grown accustomed to specialist Shadow Hawks, and with the MML available to make the mech a better infighter, I feel it lets me down.  It is still a workable mech, of course, and demands attention when ever it takes the field.

In the end, the Shadow Hawk is as much a team player as ever.  Two new support variants and one infighter mean that the old battle ax will be found along side a lot of its old companions, as Shadow Hawks cover the close of Wolverines and Phoenix Hawks and are in turn covered by Griffins.  Even as the march of time has created so many new mechs to fill roles that players 20 years past could never have dreamed of, the Shadow Hawk has marched along with it.  Its classic style and flair every bit as much as its potent new variants will keep it a fixture on the battle field for years to come.

I do want to take a look at what was left out.  The PPC Shadow Hawk never really made the appearance it could have, and I’d like to take a moment to explore it.  With the Clan invasion, range became key, and the 2K had the over abundant heatsinks to mount an ER PPC with ease.  Shoot, it could have still alphastruck at a stand still and been heat neutral, to the envy of Panther pilots everywhere.  Further down the line, double heatsinks would have allowed it to follow the trend of its brothers and gain a larger missile rack, perhaps a 15 or even a 20, while C3 would have only enhanced its sniping prowess.  In the modern ear, a Heavy PPC would have hit the spot just right.  Alas, it may never be…

"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

Iron Mongoose

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #1 on: 28 January 2011, 00:19:04 »
Yes, its an aincaint one, but with the Shadow Hawk IIC on the way, I wanted to be able to offer a bit of context.  Plus, I've always felt this was one of my best works (a few editing issues asside) and one I enjoyed the most, so I wanted to be able to continue to share that as well.  It of course needs some updates, but the old 2H is what's really important to thinking about the IIC, since any models not covered above would post date the IIC's creation, after which its pretty much branched off to do its own thing seperate from the main Shadow Hawk line in terms of design philosophy, so we can just cover that when we get around to it.
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Nightsong

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #2 on: 28 January 2011, 00:42:12 »
As for the complaints about no Heavy PPC model, it probably would have been simple to just take a standard model 2K, drop the 7 spare heatsinks for 10 doubles, put the mass into 2 more jumpjets, upgrading the PPC to a heavy and maybe see about upping the LRM-5 into an MML of some type. Plugging it in for the lulz, if you upgrade the armor to heavy ferro-fibrous, you can swap the LRM-5 for an MML-7 with an additional ton of ammo to give it a decent short ranged bite for a change. Except for the coolant system overhaul, it'd be a fairly simple upgrade I imagine. And with CASE, the armor's still fairly decent at 168 points (90 percent max coverage).
« Last Edit: 28 January 2011, 00:44:48 by Nightsong »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #3 on: 28 January 2011, 00:49:58 »
The 2D is one of the mechs I legitimately hate fielding, but sometimes do so anyway for faction flavor.  But only in the SW era.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #4 on: 28 January 2011, 01:17:56 »
As for the complaints about no Heavy PPC model, it probably would have been simple to just take a standard model 2K, drop the 7 spare heatsinks for 10 doubles, put the mass into 2 more jumpjets, upgrading the PPC to a heavy and maybe see about upping the LRM-5 into an MML of some type. Plugging it in for the lulz, if you upgrade the armor to heavy ferro-fibrous, you can swap the LRM-5 for an MML-7 with an additional ton of ammo to give it a decent short ranged bite for a change. Except for the coolant system overhaul, it'd be a fairly simple upgrade I imagine. And with CASE, the armor's still fairly decent at 168 points (90 percent max coverage).

HPPC? MML7?  One might think that you'd cheated and looked at TRO85's fancy new Shadow Hawk 12C...

Though that one's got more engine, jumpjets in the finest Shadow Hawk tradition, light FF and not heavy, and an ER ML.  But not a bad guess, I guess.
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Moonsword

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #5 on: 28 January 2011, 09:52:29 »
The SHD-2H isn't one of my favorite 'Mechs, but it can round a lance out.  It's one of those things I'll use if I need to, but I tend to look to the Wolverine for generalist duties among the Trio.

The 2D is mainly useful in ambushing lights or making Scorpion crews rue their existence... and in small packs, the Scorpions can drive the Shadow Hawks off.  That's not something to be proud of.

The 2K throws the baby out with the bathwater.  If I wanted a Griffin, I'd use a Griffin.

As for the 2D2, I think there's a smiley for this one, let me look...  Ah, here it is! [stupid]  It can have uses just like the old one as a harasser or bully, but if you're forced to devote a 55 ton 'Mech to that job for lack of anything better to do with it, you've probably messed up somewhere.  At least the Scorpions are no longer as able to use their massive firepower to scare you.

My feelings on Ultra/5s being what they are, I'd have rather had a standard autocannon and more LRM ammo, but otherwise, the Marik 3050 upgrade really was a success.

I agree with you that the SHD-5D is the Shadow Hawk Davion was waiting for.  As someone who came in after the Reseen were released, this is the image that springs to my mind when someone says Shadow Hawk, and it's one of my standard go-to 'Mechs for medium infighters in the AFFS.

The SHD-7M is very Marik, very ranged, and very useful in that role.  It's no longer a traditional Shadow Hawk, but if I want a close-in killer, I've got other options.

The 7CS isn't bad.  I don't like the light Ultras, but it's used intelligently, and the C3i should make ultra mode more useful here.

The 9D didn't endear itself to me, really, but with the increasing prominence of super-fast 'Mechs (or just the need to occasionally swat over-ambitious hovercraft), it's a capable generalist and has a niche to call its own.

The 11CS is a spotter with some ability to exploit targeting data.  Also, while snubbies don't seemingly harmonize well with LRMs, they can sit on the rack's sweet spot well and medium ranges are similar, so it's not as bad as you'd think.

The new HPPC model annoys me for not being a Griffin while the Griffin is busy turning into a Shadow Hawk but it looks capable.  Of course, heacappers tend to have that effect on me.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #6 on: 28 January 2011, 11:04:57 »
Classic! I love this old school mech.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #7 on: 28 January 2011, 11:55:13 »
The new HPPC model annoys me for not being a Griffin while the Griffin is busy turning into a Shadow Hawk but it looks capable.

Probably a discussion for another thread, but it does seem like the classic trio are kind of merging into one.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #8 on: 28 January 2011, 12:02:30 »
Well, the difrentation was always mostly in our minds, reenforced by people like me who need to find something to say.  They started with the same ground speed, almost the same armor, the same max range on their main weapon, a missile secondary, and some lasers.  The main Griffin was very distinct, but look at the S veriant and the Wolverine M and its a lot closer, or the Griffin and Shadow Hawk K.  Seeing a bit of cross over and overlap is hardly new ground. 

The newest mid range Griffin recalls that old LL packing S veriant, while the modern Shad builds on the old K (though a closer look indicates that there is a real live 3K, which is a more direct HPPC update of the older 2K).  The Wolverine is a bit more confusing, but perhaps that's the nature of the Wolverine. 

The point is that there is a solid basis for these mechs, weather or not they fit into our notion of how they should be.
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #9 on: 28 January 2011, 13:07:03 »
Well, I did say it looked capable.  As far as the build itself, without going over the sheet and doing some math, I don't have any complaints, but the thing should work and seems to be able to hold up its end of a fight.  It's doing what I want.  It's just not named what I want it to be named, if that makes sense.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #10 on: 28 January 2011, 13:10:19 »
Well, the difrentation was always mostly in our minds, reenforced by people like me who need to find something to say.  They started with the same ground speed, almost the same armor, the same max range on their main weapon, a missile secondary, and some lasers.  The main Griffin was very distinct, but look at the S veriant and the Wolverine M and its a lot closer, or the Griffin and Shadow Hawk K.  Seeing a bit of cross over and overlap is hardly new ground. 

The newest mid range Griffin recalls that old LL packing S veriant, while the modern Shad builds on the old K (though a closer look indicates that there is a real live 3K, which is a more direct HPPC update of the older 2K).  The Wolverine is a bit more confusing, but perhaps that's the nature of the Wolverine. 

The point is that there is a solid basis for these mechs, weather or not they fit into our notion of how they should be.

I always assumed that the variants were attempts to emulate the other 'Mech in an environment (like the Succession Wars) where you didn't have access to a particular chassis.  House Kurita liked the Griffin; but they didn't have enough and just converted their Shadow Hawks to fit the weapons profile. 

The unseen Shadow Hawk was the first mini that I ever bought and used in a campaign.  By the end of the campaign, I had taken damaged and modified the design into a "super-panther" by replacing the autocannon, LRM and SRM racks with a PPC, SRM4 and heat sinks.  It was almost a "Grifferine," but it still looked like a Shadow Hawk which was all that I cared about at the time.

MMLs only muddy the waters even more as they allow all three 'Mechs of that trio to have the similar armament.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #11 on: 28 January 2011, 14:40:40 »
Exceptional work as always.  The original Shadow Hawk has always exemplified the expression "Jack of all trades, Master of none" for me.

However, the OCD in me won't let one thing slide...
The Shadow Hawk’s armor, while not thin at 9.5 tons, was average for the day, being less than the Wolverine and Hunchback and equal to the Griffin

The classic trio all have 9.5 tons of armor, arranged differently on each - with the Wolverine having the odd armor: same on all torsos (20/20/20) and same armor on the arms and legs layout (16 & 16).  The Hunchback was the only old-school medium to break the 9.5 ton ceiling in terms of armor.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #12 on: 28 January 2011, 17:58:05 »
I've always liked the Shadow Hawk, and it's still a good utility player.  It's almost like the 64 gun ship of CBT; it's big enough to be a threat, but doesn't have the fire power to be in the battle line.
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #13 on: 28 January 2011, 22:18:16 »
What do you guys think of the 'Royal' Shadow Hawk of the Star League era, with the LB-10X?
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #14 on: 28 January 2011, 22:18:44 »
Still my favorite 'Mech ever and the ride of numerous MW RPG characters that I've played.  A lot of that has to do with it being the best-looking 'Mech IMO.
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #15 on: 28 January 2011, 22:22:44 »
Dark Falcon: I haven't seen the specs on that one, but it makes sense to me in theory. I used to toy with the idea of a SHD-7M refit that would replace the Light Gauss with a LB10, and I think it would be a great design overall. The idea that the Royal SLDF units had just such a machine strikes me as plausible and probably smart on their part.

On broad comment to the article: A good overview of the SHD series. I only use the -7M much since I'm a FWL-s player, and I basically only use it under duress; a Light Gauss and LRM-15 would be plenty if it had reasonable ammo for both weapons... it doesn't. The LRM-15 runs out far too fast, requiring this unit to be far too careful with its shots relative to its cost in your force. I would rather leave Light Gauss duties to a HER-5ME Hermes II, or a TDR-9M Thunderbolt. To me, the -7M is a truly unfortunate design that is just one or two design steps short of being reasonably useful.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #16 on: 29 January 2011, 16:37:02 »
I've ran SHD's for a little over 24 years now and while I'm a die hard fan, even I have to admit that this design is a jack-of-all trades.  You just have to remember that when you're using one.  Never try to solo anything heavier than 35 tons and you should be okay.

arcangelS7

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #17 on: 30 January 2011, 10:58:45 »
I've always wondered why they never published the obvious fix: replace the Autocannon-5 with a large laser. It not only improves the combat performance, but differentiates the classic trio more and clarifies the Shadow Hawk combat role as a brawler. I'm normally an AC-5 booster, but here it just doesn't work at all.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #18 on: 30 January 2011, 11:02:36 »
Actually, it differentiates it less.  There's a very prominent, well-known Wolverine that does just that and becomes a very solid, dangerous brawler.

Paladin1

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #19 on: 30 January 2011, 12:21:06 »
I've always wondered why they never published the obvious fix: replace the Autocannon-5 with a large laser. It not only improves the combat performance, but differentiates the classic trio more and clarifies the Shadow Hawk combat role as a brawler. I'm normally an AC-5 booster, but here it just doesn't work at all.
Because despite what Davion tried to do, the SHD isn't a brawler.  It's a generalist design that can support other designs at any range.  The Wolverine is the brawler of the trio.

Jackmc

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #20 on: 30 January 2011, 12:37:28 »
MMLs only muddy the waters even more as they allow all three 'Mechs of that trio to have the similar armament.

Unlike the Griffin or Wolverine, I think the Shadowhawk can use MML's without being accused of muddying the waters since it's main config mounts both LRM's and SRM's.  In fact, one of my favorite homebrew `Hawks is a Canopian version with a Plasma Cannon and MML.  Given that it has that big over the shoulder cannon and both SRM's and LRM's,  in play it feels just like a old school 2H.

-Jackmc


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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #21 on: 30 January 2011, 12:40:44 »
Do you mean the plasma rifle?  The plasma cannon is a different weapon that really wouldn't contribute to the Shadow Hawk feel...

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #22 on: 30 January 2011, 12:55:55 »
Well, given the IIC5, one could make an argument for the cannon... though I'd really strongly advise against it, unless you're a Beserker pilot making the argument to your opponent  8)

As for MMLs, I definatly like them on the Hawk, for exactly the given reason.  Its already a multi role mech, that's where it fits amoung the trio.  The Griffin ought to have LRMs, as the ranged mech.  The Wolverine ought to have SRMs, as the brawler.  The Shadow Hawk could have MRMs, given its historical role as the stinker of the trio, but I'd rather break that patern with MMLs, given its other role as the flexable mech of the trio, the jack of all trades, the mech that can support either of its brothers as needed. 

As for the main gun, I wouldn't have minded a Shadow Hawk with an AC10 somehow, but you'd have to streamline it a bit I think by taking out the extra sinks and some other junk, which would hurt some of the flavor.
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #23 on: 30 January 2011, 13:05:44 »
The Star League did a pretty convincing Royal with an LB 10-X.

Paladin1

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #24 on: 30 January 2011, 14:32:38 »
I've got to agree with the mongoose here, the SHD practically screams for a MML or two.  Maybe a pair of MML-3s with a LB10-X and a laser of some sort.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #25 on: 30 January 2011, 16:20:33 »
Back in the day, before variant RS, we thought the -2K dropped the LRMs for more heat sinks. Made it a rather nice upgrade.
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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #26 on: 31 January 2011, 05:29:36 »
when I first got ahold of the design rules way back when I started playing, the first thing I did was...

Swap out an Incubus' machine guns for small pulse lasers.

The SECOND thing I did was design a Shadowhawk variant that retains the essential design specs while dropping that autocannon like a hot potato. I have a very, very holey sheet that dates back twenty years, and has remained unchanged since then.

Replacing the AC with a large laser lets you upgrade both missile racks to a SRM-4 and a LRM-10 respectively. You still have the same damage curve out to long range (10), but once you close to medium range and bring the LL into play your damage doubles, and by the time you're in close you might *gasp!* force a PSR roll. Still only 12 heat sinks and 3 JJs, so you've gotta play it smart, but it retains that SHD flavor while making it actually... useful, and not just a WVR or GRF clone.



...I'm dead serious about that too. It was the second thing I did with the design rules, mere months into my Battletech experience, because I wanted the Shadow Hawk to be as good as everything else on the field.

Even as a stripling, I knew the AC/5 was useless.

But yeah. The Marik-5 was the first official variant I actually liked and used - even though my Ultra AC jammed every other time I fired, I still loved using it and making "blam blam BLAM!" noises as I did.

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #27 on: 31 January 2011, 11:54:16 »
Do you mean the plasma rifle?  The plasma cannon is a different weapon that really wouldn't contribute to the Shadow Hawk feel...

Yeah, I get those two names switched all the time.  As for feel though it's not really all that different.  The Plaz Cannon is a projectile weapon with no actual damage while the AC 5 is a projectile weapon with only minimal damage.  Virtually identical!  ;D ;)

-Jackmc


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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #28 on: 31 January 2011, 12:02:38 »
The tank you just smacked for an average of 10.5 damage may not feel the same way about that...

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Re: Repost: Mech of the Week: Shadow Hawk
« Reply #29 on: 31 January 2011, 12:13:53 »
The tank you just smacked for an average of 10.5 damage may not feel the same way about that...

Thanks, I had totally forgotten about them doing actual damage to vees.

Come to think of it, that's a great reason to stick a Plaz Rifle on a `Hawk.  You actually give it a heavy weapon that allows it to serve as a trooper rather than second string support mech and with an average of 17 points vs vees and PBI's, you actually make it decent in it's original support role.

-Jackmc
« Last Edit: 31 January 2011, 12:18:05 by Jackmc »


 

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