Author Topic: Tell me about the Light AC-2  (Read 8876 times)

Atarlost

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Tell me about the Light AC-2
« on: 02 July 2018, 12:53:56 »
First off, I apologize if this is the wrong place.  I see similar threads in articles but I'm not sure why they go here so I'm also not sure of the exact criteria. 

I've seen people speak favorably of the light  AC-2, particularly in a design thread about retconning availability D components into the lostech era.  I just can't see why. 

The AC-2 and AC-5 are generally considered the worst weapons in lostech era play, much less the era the LACs are actually available in.  They give up the range that was the sole niche of the AC-2 while having worse damage efficiency than the AC-5 (2 LAC-2s weigh the same as a single AC-5 and go through ammo at approximately the same rate and put out more heat where applicable while doing only 80% of the damage).  Unlike the similar comparison between AC-5s and PPCs, the LAC-2 lacks the saving grace of the AC-5 because the it's being compared to something with exactly the same advanced ammo options.

So what's the niche and why is it worth not using something with better general stats? 

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #1 on: 02 July 2018, 13:45:17 »
I'll presage my response with the caveat that I've never used either of them.  That being said, my understanding is that LACs decrease the mass of the weapons (a big complaint, given their mass-to-damage ratio) while still allowing the use of variant ammunition (such as precision or armor piercing),  which was previously restricted to just regular stock autocannons.
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #2 on: 02 July 2018, 13:53:12 »
If you want to use autocannons, why not these.
Sure, they are short ranged, and the damage is absolutely pitiful, but if you already decided to accept that...
Though, yes, I'd prefer regular AC/2s and LAC/5s.
The AP-Ammo is poor on smaller calibres, and for AA applications, range is a significant consideration.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #3 on: 02 July 2018, 18:56:04 »
The AC-2 and AC-5 are generally considered the worst weapons in lostech era play, much less the era the LACs are actually available in.  They give up the range that was the sole niche of the AC-2 while having worse damage efficiency than the AC-5 (2 LAC-2s weigh the same as a single AC-5 and go through ammo at approximately the same rate and put out more heat where applicable while doing only 80% of the damage).  Unlike the similar comparison between AC-5s and PPCs, the LAC-2 lacks the saving grace of the AC-5 because the it's being compared to something with exactly the same advanced ammo options.
I'd rather use the twin LAC-2s for some alternate ammo types, namely AP.

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #4 on: 02 July 2018, 19:18:23 »
I'd rather use the twin LAC-2s for some alternate ammo types, namely AP.
I rather have Precision and turn the twin LAC-2 into annoying harassment weapons.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #5 on: 02 July 2018, 19:21:35 »
The Light AC/2 is complete garbage.  If the range were closer to 7/14/21 it might be worth using, but as is it's four tons for a longer ranged Machine Gun with gimmick ammo that doesn't actually do much because even a Wasp laughs at two points of damage.

If you want to run two of these don't bother, just use a RAC/2 instead.  And RAC/2s aren't that great either.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #6 on: 02 July 2018, 22:27:59 »
The only benefit that I can think of for using the Light Series of AC's is the weight savings. replacing the twin AC/2's on a CLNT-2-4T Clint with a pair of LAC/2's give back 4 tons. That paper thin 4.5 tons of armor suddenly becomes 8.5 tons. Another thing to consider if, for campaign play, if all you have on hand is Lvl-1 units, replacing any AC/2 & AC/5 with a LAC version now, technically, gives you units that raise your tech level (and the funding) for Chaos Campaign warchest points purposes...


but other than side, incidentals, there is very little meta game reasons to use a LAC over, say the RAC's for example...
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #7 on: 03 July 2018, 03:31:01 »
The LAC/5 with precision ammo is actually pretty good. Two of them plus 3 tons ammo and a DHS are 14 tons, which is the same as a LXPL with similar performance.

The LAC/2 is however crap. You save about 25% of the weight and get 20% more range, but you loose 60% of the damage!

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #8 on: 03 July 2018, 05:26:16 »
Light AC/2 = SRM-1 with twice the range.

Yes, they suck for 'Mechs and vehicles, but you can have seven of them attached to an infantry platoon. That gives you an SRM-7 with the range of a PPC.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #9 on: 03 July 2018, 07:27:18 »
If you want to run two of these don't bother, just use a RAC/2 instead.  And RAC/2s aren't that great either.

The ER SRM-6 is handy for scavengers culling the injured members of the pack.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #10 on: 03 July 2018, 11:50:06 »
The ER SRM-6 is handy for scavengers culling the injured members of the pack.

ER SRM-6 ??????
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #11 on: 03 July 2018, 12:00:54 »
ER SRM-6 ??????

The RAC/2 is an ER SRM-6. Or-5. Or -4, etc.
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packhntr

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #12 on: 03 July 2018, 14:10:00 »
The RAC/2 is an ER SRM-6. Or-5. Or -4, etc.


AH...ok.....yeah, I can see it like that. 
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #13 on: 03 July 2018, 14:12:52 »
Honestly, the LAC2 isn't that great of a weapon by itself.  Used in mass.....that's another story.  However, they still weigh a lot for the damage they can do and now with the reduced range, I'd rather take a RAC-2 or 5...or a standard large laser.  To heavy, too little damage, and now too short of range. 
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #14 on: 03 July 2018, 14:16:43 »
If aiming for long range crit seeking, you might as well take actual missiles, though.
Say, 4 lrm 5 for the weight of 2 LAC/2. On a vehicle, the extra heat isn't a concern, either.
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Atarlost

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #15 on: 03 July 2018, 14:50:26 »
I'd rather use the twin LAC-2s for some alternate ammo types, namely AP.

The math doesn't really support this.  AC-2s firing AP ammo suffer a -4 rolling on the number of crits table, meaning they need a 12.  AC-5s suffer a -3 allowing them to also score an actual crit on an 11.  The LACs have a small advantage from having two chances to roll 12 on the location chart, but I suspect that an LB-5X that has a relative -2 to hit and averages three rolls on the location chart is going to crit more than either in practice. 

The only benefit that I can think of for using the Light Series of AC's is the weight savings. replacing the twin AC/2's on a CLNT-2-4T Clint with a pair of LAC/2's give back 4 tons.

You can get the same weight savings centuries earlier by swapping them for a single AC-5.  You're giving up the whole point of having a CLNT-2-4T in the first place, though.  If the range wasn't important to you you should have converted it to a CLNT-1-2R or CLNT-2-3T long before the LAC-2 was invented.   

Light AC/2 = SRM-1 with twice the range.

Yes, they suck for 'Mechs and vehicles, but you can have seven of them attached to an infantry platoon. That gives you an SRM-7 with the range of a PPC.

Or you could have 3 RAC-2s Even with the cluster rolls you can expect to average about 70% more clusters on target.  And how likely are you to get to use the functionally unlimited ammo of the LAC-2s on an infantry platoon?  Remember, field guns don't have to roll for jamming.  Unlike on a tank where firing a RAC at full RoF is likely to mean you don't have it the next round or possibly more depending on your unjamming rolls, as a field gun it just works with no downside except rapid ammunition use. 

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #16 on: 03 July 2018, 15:03:39 »
The Light AC/2 is complete garbage.  If the range were closer to 7/14/21 it might be worth using, but as is it's four tons for a longer ranged Machine Gun with gimmick ammo that doesn't actually do much because even a Wasp laughs at two points of damage.

If you want to run two of these don't bother, just use a RAC/2 instead.  And RAC/2s aren't that great either.

I really don't think 6-12-18 w/ 0 minimum is a bad range  (I think that is the LAC range off the top of my head)

1 Less than LRM Range & the Same as AC5 range all w/o any minimum.

Not horrid for a -2 Precision weapon.

Certainly not the best use of 5 tons but not horrible as an option on something like a Warrior, Scorpion, Vedette, Blackjack, or Vulcan.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #17 on: 03 July 2018, 17:00:06 »
I think this needs to be answered in two ways . . .

For the 3025 retcon (which I agree with and should include normal RLs and maybe LPPCs) . . . as someone said, they are a great fit on the light and medium mechs already using AC/2s since they will as someone noted give you more tonnage to play with for a low-heat option.  It also has a favorable short & med range bracket . . .

For 3050+ . . . well, I like the rapid fire rules for old ACs which LACs qualify for . . . IMO it makes things like the Scorpion & Vedette more worthwhile.  The LAC/2 would be good for a AA tank using flak, but we do not get it afaik.  AP ammo is blah . . . Precision . . . well, here it makes some sense IMO again for light & med mechs (or tanks!).
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Atarlost

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #18 on: 03 July 2018, 20:12:04 »
I think this needs to be answered in two ways . . .

For the 3025 retcon (which I agree with and should include normal RLs and maybe LPPCs) . . . as someone said, they are a great fit on the light and medium mechs already using AC/2s since they will as someone noted give you more tonnage to play with for a low-heat option.  It also has a favorable short & med range bracket . . .

You're just repeating that they're great, but AC-5s are also 3025 tech and are better.  And even AC-5s are very niche when the only useful specialty ammo is flak.  Unless you're AA you should have been using energy weapons or missiles.  If you're AA the range of the full size AC-2 was actually valuable because there are VTOLs that can fire from outside LAC-2 range, but not full size AC-2 range. 

There is no benefit to a low heat option if it's heavier than a high heat option and enough heatsinks to make up the difference.  Two LAC-2, two SHS, and a ton of ammo come to 11 tons.  Two LRM-5s, four SHS, two tons of ammo, and a medium laser also come to 11 tons.  The latter is just better unless you're so packed with endosteel and ferro-fibrous armor you can't find the crits.  In 3025 that's not an issue. 

For 3050+ . . . well, I like the rapid fire rules for old ACs which LACs qualify for . . . IMO it makes things like the Scorpion & Vedette more worthwhile.  The LAC/2 would be good for a AA tank using flak, but we do not get it afaik.  AP ammo is blah . . . Precision . . . well, here it makes some sense IMO again for light & med mechs (or tanks!).

Again, why aren't you using an AC-5?  If you're using rapid fire rules they apply to it too.  It can use flak or precision ammo just as well. 

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #19 on: 03 July 2018, 21:40:05 »
Again, why aren't you using an AC-5?  If you're using rapid fire rules they apply to it too.  It can use flak or precision ammo just as well.

The AC/5 is garbage, that's why.  Even in 3025.  Granted, all the reasons why hypothetical LACs in 3025 make the AC/5 even more garbage all have to do with the LAC/5 and not the LAC/2.  The LAC/2 is still pretty pointless.

In some ways a single LAC/2 is superior to the AC/5, though, especially if you're just using it for flak.  Flak isn't for VTOLs, it's for ASFs, and ASFs don't care how big the hit is, they just care that they've been hit in the first place to prompt a lawn dart check.  The extra four tons left over is the major advantage.  Putting on two of them is just a waste.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #20 on: 03 July 2018, 22:22:07 »
The AC/5 is garbage, that's why.  Even in 3025.  Granted, all the reasons why hypothetical LACs in 3025 make the AC/5 even more garbage all have to do with the LAC/5 and not the LAC/2.  The LAC/2 is still pretty pointless.

In some ways a single LAC/2 is superior to the AC/5, though, especially if you're just using it for flak.  Flak isn't for VTOLs, it's for ASFs, and ASFs don't care how big the hit is, they just care that they've been hit in the first place to prompt a lawn dart check.  The extra four tons left over is the major advantage.  Putting on two of them is just a waste.
Doesn’t the 6 hexes of range you lose matter rather a lot for AAA purposes, though?
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #21 on: 03 July 2018, 22:24:30 »
You're just repeating that they're great, but AC-5s are also 3025 tech and are better.  And even AC-5s are very niche when the only useful specialty ammo is flak.  Unless you're AA you should have been using energy weapons or missiles.  If you're AA the range of the full size AC-2 was actually valuable because there are VTOLs that can fire from outside LAC-2 range, but not full size AC-2 range. 

There is no benefit to a low heat option if it's heavier than a high heat option and enough heatsinks to make up the difference.  Two LAC-2, two SHS, and a ton of ammo come to 11 tons.  Two LRM-5s, four SHS, two tons of ammo, and a medium laser also come to 11 tons.  The latter is just better unless you're so packed with endosteel and ferro-fibrous armor you can't find the crits.  In 3025 that's not an issue. 

Again, why aren't you using an AC-5?  If you're using rapid fire rules they apply to it too.  It can use flak or precision ammo just as well.

First off, I would never put in 2t of ammo for 2 AC/2 in 3025 and not for 2 AC/2 or LAC/2 in 3050+ -a single ton will do, I doubt what I was suggesting in a 30-40t design would last 22 or 11 rounds of fire (supposing Prec for 3050+)- of course I would also not give 2 LRM5s a second ton of ammo either for most conditions.  I am not sure why you are comparing the 2 LRM5s and a ML to the 2 LAC/2 that are heat neutral since the LRM set would not be . . . but its also not like it matters on most 3025 40t and under designs, rarely do they need more sinks.  IMO, four things your LRM scenario is overlooking . . . the LACs will not have the minimum range problems the LRMs will have- in fact, their short range is where the LRMs start adding to their numbers. 

Also, either 1 ton of ammo or your 2, the LACs will have nearly double the battlefield endurance.  Might be too much but honestly a pair of LAC/2s are going to be 'fire every turn, so what its a 12.' 

Third you do get a couple of scenario situations where missiles are messed up but ACs are not. 

Finally, 'LRM5s are superior for everything at range, MLs are up close' exploits some known situations (3 LRM5s weight less than a LRM15) and is boring.  If you want to spam LRM5s, be my guest but you were asking about situations were a LAC/2 could make some sense so . . .

Take a hypothetical 3025 variant someone suggested, the Clint 2-3T . . . swap that AC/5 for a LAC/2 and you have cut the weight of the gun down by 4t.  Which is a LOT you could add to that design . . . you could max the armor (52% sq), add a few heat sinks so it could jump and alpha w/ 1t for armor, you could replace the CT ML with a Large Laser if you wanted to, or quite a few other possibilities.  But now that fast low weight medium has a bit more to it while keeping a ranged plink'ing harasser.

For a 3050 option . . . no longer does it really work on a light mech with the introduction of DHS, just too easy to put a ERLL like the Spider or a ERPPC like a Razorback.  To me it becomes a cheap ranged vehicle/speedster hunter . . . you can take a bog standard 3025 Scimitar, pull the AC/5 and put 2 LAC/5 with a single ton of ammo and get slightly more salvos- 11 if using precision.  Move about the battlefield and plink at the heavy/assault armor or damaged mechs for relatively low BV, precision just allows it to hunt its counterparts better.

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #22 on: 03 July 2018, 22:51:51 »
Doesn’t the 6 hexes of range you lose matter rather a lot for AAA purposes, though?

An AC/5 and a LAC/2 have the same maximum range.  The comparison presented was to the AC/5.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #23 on: 04 July 2018, 00:27:49 »
The math doesn't really support this.  AC-2s firing AP ammo suffer a -4 rolling on the number of crits table, meaning they need a 12.  AC-5s suffer a -3 allowing them to also score an actual crit on an 11.  The LACs have a small advantage from having two chances to roll 12 on the location chart, but I suspect that an LB-5X that has a relative -2 to hit and averages three rolls on the location chart is going to crit more than either in practice. 
If I had access to an LB5X, it's a no-brainer to take that instead-but less for crits and more for sheer versatility. I was assuming the choice was bog-standard AC/5 versus twin LAC-2s. As for why I'd rather use 2xLAC2 with AP over 1xAC5 with AP, it's more of a comfort thing; Even if the margin for success is higher for the AC5 on a single roll, it's still just one chance versus two.

In other words, I'd rather have two slightly smaller chances than a single slightly bigger one.

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #24 on: 04 July 2018, 02:50:28 »
If I had access to an LB5X, it's a no-brainer to take that instead-but less for crits and more for sheer versatility. I was assuming the choice was bog-standard AC/5 versus twin LAC-2s. As for why I'd rather use 2xLAC2 with AP over 1xAC5 with AP, it's more of a comfort thing; Even if the margin for success is higher for the AC5 on a single roll, it's still just one chance versus two.

In other words, I'd rather have two slightly smaller chances than a single slightly bigger one.
3 times bigger (3 in 36 instead of 1 in 36)...

Fun note: If you count pilot damage as equal to critical hits (which is a fair comparison IMHO) then AC ammo increases the number of criticals by ~62%.

The +1 TN penalty of AP ammo means you'll be causing more criticals firing standard ammo at TN 9 (67% more hits). If you're firing Precision ammo against a TMM+2 target TN6 (before either modifier) gets you better results!

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #25 on: 04 July 2018, 03:44:27 »
I am not sure why you are comparing the 2 LRM5s and a ML to the 2 LAC/2 that are heat neutral since the LRM set would not be . .
 . . . the LACs will not have the minimum range problems the LRMs will have- in fact, their short range is where the LRMs start adding to their numbers. 
I think that was kind of the point here;
The LRMs allow slightly better range and more damage compared to LACs, and their reduced weight is such that not only can you add the required extra heatsinks, you also have space for a medium laser to fire instead of the missiles if the fighting gets too close.
Of course, that ignores Flak Ammo, but for a pure "lots of hits at decent distances approach", the lrms have merit.
Yes, it might be cheesy to stack many lrm 5s, but compared to many small ACs the approach is similar.
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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #26 on: 04 July 2018, 04:30:31 »
First off, I would never put in 2t of ammo for 2 AC/2 in 3025 and not for 2 AC/2 or LAC/2 in 3050+ -a single ton will do, I doubt what I was suggesting in a 30-40t design would last 22 or 11 rounds of fire (supposing Prec for 3050+)- of course I would also not give 2 LRM5s a second ton of ammo either for most conditions.  I am not sure why you are comparing the 2 LRM5s and a ML to the 2 LAC/2 that are heat neutral since the LRM set would not be . . . but its also not like it matters on most 3025 40t and under designs, rarely do they need more sinks.  IMO, four things your LRM scenario is overlooking . . . the LACs will not have the minimum range problems the LRMs will have- in fact, their short range is where the LRMs start adding to their numbers. 

Also, either 1 ton of ammo or your 2, the LACs will have nearly double the battlefield endurance.  Might be too much but honestly a pair of LAC/2s are going to be 'fire every turn, so what its a 12.' 

You did not read the comparison correctly. 

The LAC-2s have 45 total shots.  The LRMs have 48 total shots.  Both sets proposed are heat neutral as long as the ML is not fired with the LRMs. 

Third you do get a couple of scenario situations where missiles are messed up but ACs are not. 

In 3025?  I don't think anyone suggested porting AMS to the lostech era. 

Finally, 'LRM5s are superior for everything at range, MLs are up close' exploits some known situations (3 LRM5s weight less than a LRM15) and is boring.  If you want to spam LRM5s, be my guest but you were asking about situations were a LAC/2 could make some sense so . . .

Your personal aversion to good weapons does not make the LAC-2 make sense.  If you can't tolerate LRM-5s or medium lasers we can compare to 6 average damage.  That gives 3 LAC-2s, 3 heatsinks, and 1 ton of ammo for a total of 16 tons compared to one LRM-10, 4 heatsinks, one SRM-4, and 3 tons of ammo (2 LRM 1 SRM) for a total of 14 tons.  This is still not favorable to the LAC-2s. 

Take a hypothetical 3025 variant someone suggested, the Clint 2-3T . . . swap that AC/5 for a LAC/2 and you have cut the weight of the gun down by 4t.  Which is a LOT you could add to that design . . . you could max the armor (52% sq), add a few heat sinks so it could jump and alpha w/ 1t for armor, you could replace the CT ML with a Large Laser if you wanted to, or quite a few other possibilities.  But now that fast low weight medium has a bit more to it while keeping a ranged plink'ing harasser.

Downgrading an AC-5 to a LAC-5 loses 60% of the damage to recover 44% of the weight.  This is a worse deal than losing 100% of the damage to recover 100% of the weight.  This frees up an additional 5 tons.  Your proposed LL swap could be a PPC swap with 2 more heatsinks to cover the difference for 4 of those tons and would reach out to AC-5 range with 800% more damage than the LAC-2.  There's no advantage to doing less damage.  Plinking is what you do when you can't do better. 

For a 3050 option . . . no longer does it really work on a light mech with the introduction of DHS, just too easy to put a ERLL like the Spider or a ERPPC like a Razorback.  To me it becomes a cheap ranged vehicle/speedster hunter . . . you can take a bog standard 3025 Scimitar, pull the AC/5 and put 2 LAC/5 with a single ton of ammo and get slightly more salvos- 11 if using precision.  Move about the battlefield and plink at the heavy/assault armor or damaged mechs for relatively low BV, precision just allows it to hunt its counterparts better.

You give up 20% of your long range damage for a 12.5% ammo increase (10% with precision due to unfavorable rounding) doing 10% less total damage (12% with precision) over the course of a sortie.  You also have to stay in the field longer to do that damage.  Bigger bins are not an advantage in this comparison.  For critting vehicles without a care for armor damage I'm pretty sure an LB-5X loaded with cluster is better.  The bonus is slightly lower than precision, but it rolls more hit locations and has better range bands. 

Caedis Animus

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #27 on: 04 July 2018, 12:00:23 »
3 times bigger (3 in 36 instead of 1 in 36)...

Fun note: If you count pilot damage as equal to critical hits (which is a fair comparison IMHO) then AC ammo increases the number of criticals by ~62%.

The +1 TN penalty of AP ammo means you'll be causing more criticals firing standard ammo at TN 9 (67% more hits). If you're firing Precision ammo against a TMM+2 target TN6 (before either modifier) gets you better results!
Key in my statement is 'comfortable'. Never said I cared about the actual math behind it. And you aren't even close to the first person to tell me this, you're more like the twelfth.

The reason, as I stated in the very thing you just responded to, is because I feel more comfortable with two chances at a 12 than one at an 11 or 12. I prefer it on a purely personal level, and I don't care if this preference-one that I rarely have to worry about, considering how little I use either weapon system-leaves me somehow hamstrung. The chances of me actually playing in a game where this personal preference actually matters are slim to none.
« Last Edit: 04 July 2018, 12:10:08 by Caedis Animus »

RevenVrake

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #28 on: 04 July 2018, 18:48:54 »
My main complaint about them is the dang name.

Light Auto-Cannon. When they had the great possibility of calling it the Snub-Nose Autocannon (They already have the Snub-Nose PPC) and then short handing it to the SNAC-2 and SNAC-5, making it snappy to say. It also invites the possibility of the SNAC-10 which could be interesting.

Empyrus

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Re: Tell me about the Light AC-2
« Reply #29 on: 04 July 2018, 20:53:04 »
My main complaint about them is the dang name.

Light Auto-Cannon. When they had the great possibility of calling it the Snub-Nose Autocannon (They already have the Snub-Nose PPC) and then short handing it to the SNAC-2 and SNAC-5, making it snappy to say. It also invites the possibility of the SNAC-10 which could be interesting.
Damn it, now that you said this, it bothers me too.
I mean, fluff-wise they seem to be exactly that, ACs with barrels cut down, accounting for reduction in range and weight.

(And yes, the series should have been expanded to AC/10 and AC/20, with ML and MPL ranges respectively, perhaps.)

 

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