HAG 40

[2nd Dragoon]

Is the Hag less or more effective than a Gauss rifle?

[Empyrus]

You might have meant to post this to ground combat section rather than strategic combat.

To answer your question, normal Gauss Rifles and HAGs have rather different roles.

Gauss Rifles excel at high single-location damage at long range for low heat.
HAGs fire many smaller slugs, causing damage in 5-point clusters like LRMs, plus with cluster-roll bonus for short range bracket and malus at long range bracket (also have anti-air bonus). They have long range but have moderate heat output. This makes them more of generalist weapons, not sniper rifles Gauss Rifles usually are.

HAGs of all sizes have higher total damage potential than Gauss Rifles, but single location damage is generally more dangerous initially, not to mention having headshot potential.

From what i've seen, people don't really regard HAGs as highly as Gauss Rifles. I know i don't much care for them.

[Sartris]

I met a cygnus 2 in a city street at 7 hexes once.

it was not a good time.

[Weirdo]

Last time I saw HAG-40s strut their stuff, it was a Marauder IIC that somehow managed to hit with both guns every time it fired, and maxed out the clusters EVERY time. Absolute unholy beast, that was.

I'm a big fan of the Carnivore HAG. The dice love to taunt me and miss far more often than not, but every time I managed to hit a vehicle, that thing was just gone in one hit, either crippled or outright dead.

The HAG-40 is just a chainsaw.

[Ulquiorra9000]

I started using HAGs a few months ago, such as on the Cygnus, Pariah, and the Bowman 3, and I like them quite well. Long range is pretty long indeed, even if you're slowed down with a -2 cluster hit roll. And up close, any HAG feels pretty awesome to shoot with that +2! I like them pretty well, and they feel really flexible. But as others said, you probably won't totally destroy one location on a fresh mech or big tank with them due to damage spreading out. But if you simply want the sheer volume of firepower...

[Empyrus]

Don't know about others but when it comes to volume of fire, i'd rather have bunch of LRMs. More or less same damage, but you can pack more of them in the same space and mass a single HAG takes. Plus way more flexibility...

[Greatclub]

I've used them seldom, so take this with a grain of salt, but baring luck they've never impressed me. They peel armour. They don't dig big holes or generate enough hits to truly critseek.

The best use I've seen is on the Thunder Stallion; as the second weapon fired, after the LB20X.

[Firesprocket]

Plus way more flexibility...

It depends on what you are trying to be flexible for.  If you want IDF and special munitions then only LRMs will suffice.  If you want Flak the HAG covers that better.  It should be noted that HAGs have less working against them then do LRMs which can be diminished by AMS and reactive armor.  While there is armor that will half gauss damage it is pretty bad and are less likely to run against it.  The HAG 40 is the best of the bunch, but HAG 20s on the right chassis aren't okay, but nothing to write home about.

[grimlock1]

It depends on what you are trying to be flexible for.  If you want IDF and special munitions then only LRMs will suffice.  If you want Flak the HAG covers that better.  It should be noted that HAGs have less working against them then do LRMs which can be diminished by AMS and reactive armor.  While there is armor that will half gauss damage it is pretty bad and are less likely to run against it.  The HAG 40 is the best of the bunch, but HAG 20s on the right chassis aren't okay, but nothing to write home about.

Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.

I might feel better about them if I played them more but I'm mixed.  They are a LOT of weight and space, tied to a tiny ammo bin.  16 tons of gun, and 3 rounds per ton of ammo.  I'm going to VERY averse to firing at anything beyond 16 hexes, and not wild about taking shots past 9, unless I am packing 3-4 tons of ammo.   That's 20 tons and 14 crits.

Figuring on cluster rolls of 7's you will average 24 points of damage, grouped 5,5,5,5,4.  When I'm probably shooting at an assault mech, that doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings. 

On the other hand, pair with an ER PPC for some long range fencing, then I'll get interested.

I've used them seldom, so take this with a grain of salt, but baring luck they've never impressed me. They peel armour. They don't dig big holes or generate enough hits to truly critseek.

The best use I've seen is on the Thunder Stallion; as the second weapon fired, after the LB20X.

I think Greatclub is right.  They don't generate enough location rolls to kill by TAC/floating crits/head shots. SB Gauss is going to average 9 locations per hit. 

But like I said above, when used as part of the hole-puncher/hole-finder combo they have potential.

I'm more interested in the HAG 30.  The 20 will give you 4 location rolls in close, 3 at mid range, but only...  Cluster roll of 7, -2 for HAG at long range is a 5, for a 20 point attack is 12, which is the same what it would be for medium range.  Huh.  The 20 is looking a bit more appealing.

[Empyrus]

Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.

They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?

[Scotty]

HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.

[Retry]

They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?

AA missiles for LRMs without any extra mods to the launchers (like Artemis) would be pretty silly, probably excessively powerful.  Immediately able to convert any LRM into a potent AA weapon just by swapping out an ammo bay.  Vanilla AC's do that too, but they're not that good anyways and don't have the rest of the useful ammo loads that LRMs can get.

And even then, the vanilla ACs are not that good as AA guns as the LB-Xs and HAGs.  Both are later and higher tech advancements, but still...

(Yeah, AA Arrow IVs are a thing.)

[Brakiel]

I tend to view HAGs the same way I view Plasma Rifles: they're rarely the best weapon for any one situation, but they're pretty good weapons for a lot of situations. Yeah, HAGs don't do concentrated damage as well as a Gauss or Heavy Gauss. Yeah, it doesn't crit fish as well as a LBX10 or 20. Et cetera, et cetera. But as one package , it's performance is good enough. I can take long pot shots at aerospace one turn, then hose a tank next turn, then get into a point blank slugfest with an enemy assault mech the turn after that.

[Firesprocket]

Doesn't LRM have flak ammo?  LB and conventional autocannons also offer anti-air capability.

I might feel better about them if I played them more but I'm mixed.  They are a LOT of weight and space, tied to a tiny ammo bin.  16 tons of gun, and 3 rounds per ton of ammo.  I'm going to VERY averse to firing at anything beyond 16 hexes, and not wild about taking shots past 9, unless I am packing 3-4 tons of ammo.   That's 20 tons and 14 crits.

The first part already got answered elsewhere so I'll address the only the rest.  LBs and SB Gauss are going to be better at swatting things out of the air based off of the number of shots they are likely to produce on the cluster table and consequently force control rolls on any aerospace units in atmospheric conditions.  If you have any interest at all in firing in some flak capacity and solid slugs then you are going to load at least 2 tons of ammo and you are likely going to not exhaust it outside of campaign conditions.  HAGs only have one mode and you can load up on all the ammo you want and not worry about. It has a defined role and sticks with it.  It also, more importantly out ranges most everything on the board of consequence outside of an cER Large Laser.

Figuring on cluster rolls of 7's you will average 24 points of damage, grouped 5,5,5,5,4.  When I'm probably shooting at an assault mech, that doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.

It is somewhat inconsequential if you are using a HAG unit in some sort of support roll.  Let other units make the holes and advance behind a screen.  If the screen is more intimidating someone's going to shoot at the screening units first  Once you are in medium range, which isn't usually difficult, that -2 is minimized. 

I'm more interested in the HAG 30.  The 20 will give you 4 location rolls in close, 3 at mid range, but only...  Cluster roll of 7, -2 for HAG at long range is a 5, for a 20 point attack is 12, which is the same what it would be for medium range.  Huh.  The 20 is looking a bit more appealing.

I don't think I've honestly ever used a HAG 30.  When I've had my choice to us a mech with HAG it is usually a 40.  I have, once played with a HAG 20.  I was handed a Black Hawk F to play last year and I have to say I largely enjoyed it.  Looking at it I thought it was kinda of an odd duck, but I found it to be reasonably effective.  It was in more of a free for all setting, but I was largely ignored because I couldn't do more than a concentrated 7 pt hit, but I was consistent in doing 25-30 damage a turn.

HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.

This is one of those odd times where a couple Streak LRMs make sense depending on the size of HAG you are replacing.  The raw damage is similar and if you don't hit there is no heat concern.  You still lose the flak bonus though.

[Weirdo]

LBs and SB Gauss are going to be better at swatting things out of the air based off of the number of shots they are likely to produce on the cluster table and consequently force control rolls on any aerospace units in atmospheric conditions.

For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.

[Wolf72]

For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.

does that include the wee LB-2X? ... if so, that pee shooter just picked up a cool feature in my (limited) book.

[Weirdo]

That's the main selling point of the LB-2X. :)

(Remember, aero lawn-dart rolls work by asking the ASF player a single yes-or-no question: "Is the amount of damage taken this turn greater than zero?" If yes, you make a single roll. The amount of damage or number of clusters is completely irrelevant, they do not increase the number of rolls(though raw damage can make that single roll worse). The only way to force additional rolls is through the effects of critical hits(or heat, though most heat weapons are too short-ranged to be effective in AA).

[Apocal]

HAGs generate significantly less heat for the same tonnage of weapons.  A unit replacing HAGs with LRMs will run out of heat sinks much faster than it will run out of tonnage.

That's true, but you're also talking about twice as much tonnage per damage, so you're not saving on heat per damage if you count the opportunity cost in tonnage as eating potential heat sinks. Even with sinks to handle the LRM's excess over the HAG, you're looking at saving a few tons and losing out on one or two crits in the bargain.

[Kit deSummersville]

For clarification, the number of control rolls an LB or SB can force without having scored any actual critical hits is...one. Extra pellets does not mean extra rolls.

Well, 19 extra pellets will help the roll.  ^-^

The HAG also has 5 point groupings, which can threshold some light ASFs, which can certainly be handy since they aren't any harder to hit than big, slower ASFs. LB's aren't going to threshold anything (in cluster mode).

[Weirdo]

True. That falls under the category of forcing more rolls through critical hits.

Though if a fighter with less than 41 armor on each facing starts talking fire from HAGs...crits may not be the most immediate concern...

[grimlock1]

That's the main selling point of the LB-2X. :)

(Remember, aero lawn-dart rolls work by asking the ASF player a single yes-or-no question: "Is the amount of damage taken this turn greater than zero?" If yes, you make a single roll. The amount of damage or number of clusters is completely irrelevant, they do not increase the number of rolls(though raw damage can make that single roll worse). The only way to force additional rolls is through the effects of critical hits(or heat, though most heat weapons are too short-ranged to be effective in AA).

Lawn dart checks come whenever the aero takes damage?  I never realized that. I thought the only was through crits and thresholds. 
In some ways that makes the HAG more appealing.  Trying to to threshold check an aero with 1 point dings is not something I would want to bet on. The HAGs 5 point groupings make make those checks much more probable.

[Daryk]

If you're worried about actually hitting, LB-2X's all the way, with cluster rounds.  They're actually pretty light, unlike HAGs...

[Weirdo]

There is an optional rule in StratOps, where only his that can threshold are counted towards the lawn-dart yes/no. I avoid it like the plague, because it renders many fighters immune to most weapons that in-universe are relied on for AA duty.

[Daryk]

I'm glad I've missed that rule until now... I suppose it gives IS ER PPCs yet another reason to exist.

[TigerShark]

They don't. Which is actually kind of weird, given that missiles (IRL) have been standard anti-air weapon for decades now, i'd expect that to stay true even in the future of the 80s. But i suppose game balance is the reason, gotta have some point in ACs and flak is as good role as any.

Spheroids did develop anti-air Arrow IVs though, i think?

They do. Sort of. Heat-seeking LRMs can be useful, but only if fired into the rear arc of an Aerospace fighter. They don't function like they "should", IMO. They receive a penalty if fired against any other arc, so they're fairly useless unless you are SPECIFICALLY in the flight path AND have a turret which can twist to the rear arc (or you're lucky enough to have a dumb opponent who flies into one of the 4/6 arcs you can use to torso twist into the Rear arc).

[Daryk]

Or you have the Extended Torso Twist quirk...

[grimlock1]

It is somewhat inconsequential if you are using a HAG unit in some sort of support roll.  Let other units make the holes and advance behind a screen.  If the screen is more intimidating someone's going to shoot at the screening units first  Once you are in medium range, which isn't usually difficult, that -2 is minimized. 

It took me YEARS to get used to thinking of the Clans fighting under Zell.  Now I have to unlearn that habit.  At least for certain clans/eras.

[mbear]

HAGs fire many smaller slugs, causing damage in 5-point clusters like LRMs, plus with cluster-roll bonus for short range bracket and minus at long range bracket (also have anti-air bonus). They have long range but have moderate heat output. This makes them more of generalist weapons, not sniper rifles Gauss Rifles usually are.

So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?

[Wolf72]

So if a Gauss Rifle is a rifle, the HAG is a Gauss Shotgun?

With better range

[Col Toda]

Depending on ERA I like Silver Bullet and HAG in Spaceport Gun Emplacemets . A automated 5 gunner firing Flack with dedicated anti air Rifleman like Fire control gets to an adjusted 1 gunnery against flying targets . Outside of these optimized conditions would rather use different weapob choices . The Silver Bullet Gauss acts like a LB 15 X cluster shot with each individual point being separately scored. So given a choice I would not go the HAG. Route .