Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger  (Read 28480 times)

Kotetsu

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’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« on: 11 January 2013, 16:53:15 »
’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger

The Stinger. Business end of insects and arachnids like the wasp and scorpion. A professional wrestler has beaten Hulk Hogan among others. An American-made shoulder-fired Surface-to-Air Missile. And one of the bug ’Mechs of the Unseen, whose original dimensions harken back to the RoboTech anime.

Though that program might have been stitched together from others…

Stated as the second mass-produced light design in history (likely behind the Wasp), the Stinger is actually the fourth (so far) in existence (the other two being the Commando and the WAM-A, later the Firebee). The Stinger is written as also having beaten a design put forward by GM in the Star League trials. GM, having built the Wasp took an instant dislike to the Stinger as they claimed it was a blatant rip-off of their design, and sued. Two decades later, they dropped the suit as the cost just became too much for their bottom line.

The original STG-3R model entered service in 2479, and apparently was paired up with the Wasp for ease of maintenance. Mounting a GM 120-rated fusion engine, the Stinger could top out at 97 km/h. Six jump jets gave it the ability to reposition itself as needed. Three tons of armor give it 69% of maximum protection. This is laid out in a 4, 6/4, 6/2, 4, and 5 pattern for the head, center torso, side torsos, arms, and legs respectively. Ten heat sinks comfortably handle the heat load produced by the weapon’s systems, which are a right arm mounted medium laser, and a machine gun in each arm. One ton of machine gun ammunition is mounted in the center torso. The largest problem the design had was the space allocated for the pilot. Apparently getting out of a Stinger required a can of WD-40 and a crowbar…

Approximately 102 years later, the need for a way to deal with opposing scout designs facilitated the introduction of the STG-3G variant. This version removed the machine guns to add a second medium laser to the left arm, as well as one ton of armor, which brought the design up to a 6, 8/4, 7/3, 6, 7 configuration. This design had slight heat woes, as the heat went up two when jumping full and firing both lasers.

Around the turn of the 28th Century, the SLDF decided they wanted an upgraded version. Entering service in 2720, the STG-3Gb Royal variant utilized an endo-steel skeleton and a 140-rated extralight engine to up the armor to maximum (9, 9/3, 8/2, 6, 8 ), and add a centerline medium and head-mounted small laser. The heat sinks were also upgraded to doubles. Finally, a jump jet was added to increase the design’s mobility. Apparently every model that survived the Amaris Coup was taken on the Exodus, as this variant was not seen during the Succession Wars.

A large number of Stingers survived the Succession Wars. In addition, Earthworks managed to keep at least one factory churning the design out. With the proliferation of LostTech following the Helm Core’s discovery, it was decided to produce an upgraded model. This model, the STG-5M, replaces the machine guns with a flamer and an anti-missile system. An endo-steel skeleton also allowed for the upgrading of the armor across the head and torsos (6 head, 8/4 center, 8/2 sides).

It wasn’t until 3067 that more variants were created. As part of the Project Phoenix wave that swept the stars, the Taurians (with Word assistance) reworked the Stinger into the STG-5R model. This model replaced the machine guns with twin 15-rack Rocket Launchers and the medium laser was upgraded to an extended model. Armor was upgraded to ferro to provide protection in a 7, 6/2, 6/2, 5, 6 sequence. Among the many redesigns to its look, a full-head ejection system was added which fixed the cramped conditions of the previous variants.

At the same time, the Capellans designed the STG-6L variant. Mounting stealth armor around an endo-steel skeleton, the design mounts maximum protection in a 9, 9/3, 8/2, 6, 8 pattern. Weaponry consists of a medium laser in each arm. The jump jets were removed and the engine was upgraded to a 160-rated model, giving the design similar ground speed to that of the original Locust. The heat sinks were upgraded to double-strength models, allowing the design to run heat-neutral (at least until someone splashes it with plasma).

The Jihad’s early years saw the creation of three more variants. The first, the STG-5T was similar to the -5R model, save all of the weaponry was replaced with twin 3-pack Multi-Missile Launchers. Two tons of ammunition were allocated for SRM or LRM ammunition. House Steiner introduced the STG-6S model, which uses a 140-rated light engine to push the walking speed to that of the Royal variant. An additional jump jet was also installed, as was MASC to give the design the highest speed possible. Weaponry consists of twin light machine guns and an extended-range medium laser. Armor is heavy ferro, which allows for a 7, 8/2, 8/2, 5, 6 pattern.

The final early Jihad variant is the STG-3P. This model mounts a light-class particle cannon and uses an endo-steel skeleton. Armor is like the -3G model. Around 3076, the STG-5G model modifies this by using a 140-rated extralight engine, uses double-strength heat sinks, and adds a capacitor to the particle cannon. Armor is also maximized.

The final Inner Sphere variant is the STG-7S. Appearing near the end of the Jihad, this model strips the weapons-load down to a single extended-range medium laser. An endo-steel skeleton and 120-rated extralight engine allow the design to mount eight improved model jump jets. Only three tons of armor are allocated, which is laid-out in a 9, 7/2, 6/1, 4, 3/5 pattern. At least according to the record sheet, the left leg has two points of armor less than the right.

As the Snow Ravens and Outworlds Alliance formed the Raven Alliance, the need for new scout machines for the faction was becoming a grave issue. The solution was proposed by the head of the Alliance Defenders Limited corporation, and involved the upgrading of the STG-3R to Clan standards. The result is the Stinger IIC. Based around an endo-steel frame, the design utilizes a standard 120-rated engine, mounts an improved heavy medium laser in each arm, and an anti-personnel Gauss in the right arm. Armor is provided by three and a half tons of ferro-fibrous in a 7, 8/4, 7/3, 6, 8 pattern. Six jump jets maintain the characteristic jump capability. A year later, the Stinger IIC 2 variant showed up. It trades the Gauss for an improved heavy large laser. One jump jet was removed and the engine downgraded to a 100-rated model. This variant must have been a surprise the first few times it entered combat.

To use a Stinger, use quick strike tactics. I.e. jump in, shoot, get the heck out. Since you are more of a recon unit, try to avoid direct combat as much as possible. And as 20-tonner, getting hit is death. Frankly, with the armor load of most variants, some spitballs could go internal. Keep your foes’ to-hit numbers as high as possible.

When fighting a Stinger, first you have to catch him. This is somewhat simple, as most of their weapons aren’t exactly long-range. Time has not been good to him. Where-as he once was among the hardest things to hit, targeting computers, precision ammunition, and things like Gauss Rifles have made his life not so easy. More so, with TAG and C3 out there. Again, as a twenty-tonner with armor loads that aren’t exactly large, hitting him with any weapons can ruin his day. Plasma rifles are even better, as they will likely tear parts off and cause severe heat woes (then again I tend to roll above 4 on each plasma).

The Stinger has led a long and storied career. And it is likely to continue to do so, as there were lots of them in the Dark Age game. In fact, based on experience from that game, I can say that while one Stinger doesn’t worry me, a horde of them can be trouble.
« Last Edit: 11 January 2013, 17:51:42 by Kotetsu »

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #1 on: 11 January 2013, 17:39:55 »
Not much use on the tactical battle field, unless you're just trying for sheer numbers.  My militia battalion (here) has a Stinger to fill out the scout lance. If I expanded this unit, they'd end up with a lance or two of Stingers.

The speed isn't as much a defense as you'd like for the past 20 odd years, with the 3050 Grand Dragon matching it in a foot race.  PBI squashing, they can get through your armor and easily out range you  However, on a BattleForce scale, they're a quite a bit better, if only because they can actually get away on occasion.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #2 on: 11 January 2013, 19:22:58 »
Although I've always liked the Stinger, it is very much outclassed on the modern battlefield, just as nerd says.  That said however, it still has a place in militia units and it is dirt cheap BV and C-Bill wise.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #3 on: 11 January 2013, 19:35:46 »
The STG-3P is a unit that deals disproportional chaos to its enemies. For a tiny BV (by modern standards) it has an insane ability to annoy; its 5 points are just enough to annoy and too much to ignore, but it can pick its range and harass and force an enemy to decide wheather to shut it up or go after the real threats.

That it has "desperation weapon" stamped on it only makes me love it more.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #4 on: 11 January 2013, 19:46:58 »
Whats a 3025 company without a stinger or two (after all i think the original Black Widow company had 3).

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #5 on: 11 January 2013, 19:52:20 »
I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #6 on: 11 January 2013, 23:26:20 »
The Stinger has always served me well, especially the -3G model. Haven't used the Royal version or the rest of the new upgrades but I'm looking forward to the Gb, 3P, 6L and 6S. That 5G model with the PPC capacitor looks neat too.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #7 on: 12 January 2013, 00:16:20 »
Love the idea behind the -5R though I have not got to use one (must fix, my mercs like rockets after all).  The IIC . . . oh, I SO want to play with that design!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #8 on: 12 January 2013, 02:11:36 »
I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters.  It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #9 on: 12 January 2013, 02:55:11 »
I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters.  It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.

To be fair, you can remove Stinger from your post and replace it with 'every 20 ton (Inner Sphere) 'Mech in existance'.

There are some inherent penalties to the lightest units, for example  cockpit weight and Gyro weight taking up such a large percentage of their mass, maximum armor limits and so on.  30-35 tons, to me, is as light as I'd go in fielding a 'line' battlemech. 25 tonners and below, even at lower cost, simply have too many drawbacks and wont survive on the modern battlefield against well equipped units.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #10 on: 12 January 2013, 02:58:03 »
There are a few exceptions to that.  Honestly, the reason I singled out Stingers (and to an almost identical extent Wasps) is because they move "only" 6/9 at 20 tons.  They just don't have the speed to do anything that some 50 ton 'Mechs can do better in every single way except cost.  There are some 20 ton 'mechs that are faster than anything else on two or four legs, and that gets them a decent spot on the field.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #11 on: 12 January 2013, 17:54:27 »
I consider Wasps and Stingers to be scouts and training 'Mechs that are not really to engage other 'Mechs.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #12 on: 13 January 2013, 08:04:41 »
I consider Wasps and Stingers to be scouts and training 'Mechs that are not really to engage other 'Mechs.

Once you had a Stinger IIC 2 in your back and blasting you for all it got, you will rethink that ;)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #13 on: 13 January 2013, 21:14:39 »
’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger

 The largest problem the design had was the space allocated for the pilot. Apparently getting out of a Stinger required a can of WD-40 and a crowbar…

Should the Stinger be considered to have a small cockpit?

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #14 on: 13 January 2013, 21:29:38 »
Should the Stinger be considered to have a small cockpit?

Not the standard 2 ton small cockpit, but the Stinger is given as an example for the "Cramped cockpit" negative quirk, which mimics the small cockpit, but without the weight and critical savings.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #15 on: 13 January 2013, 22:12:28 »
I need to dig up the record sheet for a Stinger Upgrade I did back in the day when I was on a "Pimp my Bug Mech" kick.  It had a light PPC and it was fun when I tested it...
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #16 on: 14 January 2013, 06:03:05 »
The article fails to mention that the Stinger, even in 3025, was seen primarily in training cadres and poorly equipped militia formations. It's not a designated training 'Mech, but apparently that's the job it sucks least at so that's what it's used for. And for terrorizing the public.

Look at where the Stinger came from. It's implied to be a blatant Wasp ripoff (although it was never decided in court), to the point of being all but a variant of that 'Mech. I recall a notion from somewhere that even the parts were largely interchangeable.
To wit, the Stinger is essentially a Wasp with MGs instead of a SRM-2.
Why would anybody want that? Don't know, ask the Star League quartermasters. It does make some (limited) sense when going against infantry, if you're not going to use infernos.

As for variants, well scream at me for coming up with an apocryphal source again but in The Crescent Hawks' Inception the Steiner techs on Chara III can give you what seems to be a standard refit where they remove the MGs & ammo and replace them with two small lasers in each arm. I like that modification a lot.
There's an additional mod removing the JJs for two CT-mounted med lasers and extra armor; that one I don't like quite as much.
« Last Edit: 14 January 2013, 06:04:52 by Frabby »
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #17 on: 14 January 2013, 12:08:52 »
The article fails to mention that the Stinger, even in 3025, was seen primarily in training cadres and poorly equipped militia formations. It's not a designated training 'Mech, but apparently that's the job it sucks least at so that's what it's used for. And for terrorizing the public.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #18 on: 14 January 2013, 17:31:06 »
The article fails to mention that the Stinger, even in 3025, was seen primarily in training cadres and poorly equipped militia formations. It's not a designated training 'Mech, but apparently that's the job it sucks least at so that's what it's used for. And for terrorizing the public.
actually, it would make a lousy training mech (cramped cockpit for one pilot and no room for a trainer, no real diversity of weapons for live fire training, not really durable enough to survive the inevitable falls as the trainee learns how to pilot..)
the use of the stinger as a training mecha is, i think, due to the fact that they are cheap, and there are huge #'s of them. every stinger assigned to training duty means one more mech assignment on the frontline that can be devoted to a larger, more durable design.


Quote
Look at where the Stinger came from. It's implied to be a blatant Wasp ripoff (although it was never decided in court), to the point of being all but a variant of that 'Mech. I recall a notion from somewhere that even the parts were largely interchangeable.
To wit, the Stinger is essentially a Wasp with MGs instead of a SRM-2.
Why would anybody want that? Don't know, ask the Star League quartermasters. It does make some (limited) sense when going against infantry, if you're not going to use infernos.

IMO, the stinger would make sense as a 'milita and police' version of the Wasp.. something designed to be used by non-military or paramilitary forces. MG's can be loaded with rubber bullets for less than lethal crowd control, which is much more useful than the SRM of a wasp.

but using the canon background? a stinger is cheaper logistically, since MG ammo is easier to get than SRm ammo, and it lasts much longer between needing reloading. on the principle that recon mechs are not supposed to engage the enemy, the reduction in range fire power isn't much of an issue (and to be honest, a 6 hex reduction in range isn't much a loss for such a light mech.. if the wasp carried an LRM5 instead of an SRM2, it would be a big issue though), and it gains some extra ability to deal with infantry and do less-than-lethal crowd control.

Quote
As for variants, well scream at me for coming up with an apocryphal source again but in The Crescent Hawks' Inception the Steiner techs on Chara III can give you what seems to be a standard refit where they remove the MGs & ammo and replace them with two small lasers in each arm. I like that modification a lot.
There's an additional mod removing the JJs for two CT-mounted med lasers and extra armor; that one I don't like quite as much.

the small laser refit would be fairly simple, since MG's and SL's mass the same. you'd also have a spare ton from removing the MG ammo though.. no need for extra heatsinks, so where did it go in the Crescent hawk's refit?  :-\
the JJ refit sounds comparable to some of the 3025 P-hawk refits to the same end.. might be useful in some situations, but i'd rather have the JJ's..

might be nice to get record sheets based on those mods, both seem like they'd be common enough refits for the 3rd and 4th succession wars era.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #19 on: 14 January 2013, 17:35:23 »
I see Stingers as generic scout or picket 'mechs when you expect to face reasonable number of infantry. (This translates to all offensive and a fair chunk of defensive missions.) It can range far and wide without compromising the firepower of your main force. It's fast enough to move speedily on a strategic scale, so it can find the enemy, break contact quickly and report in, then harass them, going after infantry patrols, or lightly defended targets.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #20 on: 14 January 2013, 17:40:56 »
the small laser refit would be fairly simple, since MG's and SL's mass the same. you'd also have a spare ton from removing the MG ammo though.. no need for extra heatsinks, so where did it go in the Crescent hawk's refit?  :-\
There's a pair of small lasers in each arm for this variant.
And while the Crescent Hawks games are frequently treated pretty much as canon, they remain apocryphal sources. As such, this Stinger variant isn't likely to see an official record sheet anytime soon.
That said, it's simple enough to update a record sheet with the information we're given here.

Somewhat off-topic, but in the same game there's that gorgeous "Blazing Inferno" variant of the Commando where the two SRM lauchers are exchanged for 3 more medium lasers and 6 small lasers, and a ton of armor.  [drool]
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #21 on: 14 January 2013, 18:03:53 »
When combined arms units are present in 3025 games sometimes you just need
a CHEAP unit with some MGs that's got a mech's level of mobility .

Having your anti-infantry weapons mounted on a vehicle that can't make it past
prohibited terrain or a mech that's just not fast enough to get there in time  can
be the same as not having any anti-infantry weapons at all .


Sometimes you just don't have the BV or C-Bills available to pay for a
Phoenix Hawk or a Firestarter .

The only thing I REALLY don't like about the standard Stinger  is it's combination
of 5 armor points and 4 internal structure in each leg .

That means any single PPC hit takes off a leg .

I would choose it as an option normally otherwise -instead of when I'm almost out
of BV to spend .

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #22 on: 14 January 2013, 18:13:45 »
The Stinger- maybe one of the most common designs, and one that's seen it's share of facelifts over the years....

the original Stinger is a fairly simple design. it's body is somewhat flattened with mostly smooth lines, broken up mostly by the jet-mounting packs on the rear and what looks like some kind of canopy hatch in the chest *cough* and the legs are similarly simple. the arms have large vambraces housing the machineguns, and the laser being housed in a rifle-shaped arm pod is an unusual mounting choice that isn't commonly seen in later eras *cough*. what may be the Stinger's defining trait though is the head- the cockpit is somehow pried into a tiny, largely horizontal space that looks more like a security camera than anything else. either the pilot has to shimmy into a miniscule tube build into the rear of the head to pilot the thing or else he literally has to be crammed into a space maybe the size of a largish garbage can, a feat that must have ensured the Stinger its place of derision as a lemon of a 'mech.

the later inner sphere redesign is largely the same shape, with most of its alterations minor cosmetic choices. the overall armor design is more angular and jagged, with many of the joints opting for large, very visible armor baffles compared to the old ones. the "backpack" containing the Stinger's jumping power has been compacted effectively and no longer pokes over it's shoulders and the head has been enlarged somewhat (to the cheers of every low-ranking mechjock, i'm assured). the most immediately visible change though is the addition of a pair of rocket launcher racks to the front torso. the paired launchers take up more than half of the torso, lending a significantly more threatening look to the design.

overall, the Stinger is a design that's largely very simple, which is maybe the inevitable result of making a 'mech in a weight class the relegates it to likely being mission killed once it actually sees returning fire from anything other than it's own kind on the battlefield. that it's signature design trait seems to be not giving the pilot any kind of space doesn't help it any, but it's very hard to argue with cheap and mobile.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #23 on: 14 January 2013, 18:30:16 »
I see Stingers as generic scout or picket 'mechs when you expect to face reasonable number of infantry. (This translates to all offensive and a fair chunk of defensive missions.) It can range far and wide without compromising the firepower of your main force. It's fast enough to move speedily on a strategic scale, so it can find the enemy, break contact quickly and report in, then harass them, going after infantry patrols, or lightly defended targets.

The problem with this is that at 6/9/6 it does not really have the speed to break contact quickly (or at all in many cases) on the modern battlefield.  The most likely scenario is that it will be caught by the enemy's larger, faster, and better armed scouts and killed before it can gather any really useful information so you would be better off with something like a Ferret VTOL.  Even if it does manage to get through to the bulk of the enemy forces, there will likely be units with at least as much mobility as it has on hand to crush it like the bug it is, and that is assuming a larger 'Mech does not wreck it the instant it shows its face with something like an ERPPC.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #24 on: 14 January 2013, 18:36:42 »
Indeed.  The Stinger's natural predator on the modern battlefield are 6/9/x mediums with the range and firepower to cripple Stingers in the opening salvo.

The Uziel 2S could easily have been designed for the express purpose of mauling Stingers and Wasps, for how good it is at it.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #25 on: 14 January 2013, 19:57:42 »
Indeed.  The Stinger's natural predator on the modern battlefield are 6/9/x mediums with the range and firepower to cripple Stingers in the opening salvo.

The Uziel 2S could easily have been designed for the express purpose of mauling Stingers and Wasps, for how good it is at it.

Honestly, there are plenty of 7/11/X mediums that do it as well under IS tech, and on the Clan side of things you have machines like the Viper which can do unholy things to a Stinger with a stray glance.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #26 on: 15 January 2013, 01:52:39 »
On the other hand taking a couple of Level 1 Stingers in a mixed force means never having to whine about Infantry units outside of an Urban environment.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #27 on: 15 January 2013, 02:30:47 »
On the other hand taking a couple of Level 1 Stingers in a mixed force means never having to whine about Infantry units outside of an Urban environment.

Honestly, you are better off picking real machines with anti-infantry weapons (the old Warhammer is a good 3025 example).  They tend to save you a lot of BV over a dedicated anti-infantry platform even if it is cheap junk like the Stinger, and unlike the Stingers they are not going to get killed by the infantry they are trying to kill or get picked off to leave the rest of the force vulnerable.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #28 on: 15 January 2013, 02:45:54 »
Eh, the most I have seen for the Stinger or Wasp is in double blind games as a behind the lines spotter.  It sits on top of something to negate the double blind for one side or another . . .
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #29 on: 15 January 2013, 12:56:29 »
The Stinger/Wasp duo started the process that eventually drove me away from the idea of "cheap" Mech scouts.
The concept of a Stinger scouting can be basically summed up as: "we'll know where the enemy is when it stops reporting in".
Even back in 3025 the thing wasn't really fast enough to run away, and worthless as a combat unit. An Assassin is faster, and a Pixie will it it for lunch.

So either you go all out, cost be damned (LCT-6M), or you forget the entire idea of Scout Mechs, and optimize them for harrassing.
Use VTOLs or stealthy BA for actual scouting.

Though IMO, a guy on a motorbike is a better scout anyway.
You can hide everywhere, and you can at least try to make up excuses when the bad guys find you!
"Invasion? What invasion, i'm out here camping for the last two weeks! Radio? The point of this trip is getting away from civilisation!
Oh, those military binocs? Birdwatching man! Cost me a fortune, but i can count a Jaybirds feathers from half a mile out!
The rifle? Come on, you've seen a Stuffer Shack out here? I'm hunting my food!
What about that compact com unit, don't you guys know anything? Only a fool goes camping in the hills without a way to call the rangers is something goes south, like a broken leg!"

Try something like that after they've shot you out of your Stinger...   8)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #30 on: 15 January 2013, 16:30:57 »
Although I've always liked the Stinger, it is very much outclassed on the modern battlefield, just as nerd says.  That said however, it still has a place in militia units and it is dirt cheap BV and C-Bill wise.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.

That is true.. and yes though some mid range heavies match it for movement, you can take a swarm of stingers for the BV/cost of one of those moving heavies..

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I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters.  It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.

Or merc group.

For me though i have loved its cheapness, the ease they get taken out has always been a draw back to me. 
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #31 on: 15 January 2013, 23:22:53 »
Its a lousy Merc Mech.
While its cheap initially, having to replace Mech and pilot after nearly every battle gets kinda expensive in the long term...

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #32 on: 16 January 2013, 01:32:16 »
The Stinger/Wasp duo started the process that eventually drove me away from the idea of "cheap" Mech scouts.
The concept of a Stinger scouting can be basically summed up as: "we'll know where the enemy is when it stops reporting in".
Even back in 3025 the thing wasn't really fast enough to run away, and worthless as a combat unit. An Assassin is faster, and a Pixie will it it for lunch.

So either you go all out, cost be damned (LCT-6M), or you forget the entire idea of Scout Mechs, and optimize them for harrassing.
Use VTOLs or stealthy BA for actual scouting.

Though IMO, a guy on a motorbike is a better scout anyway.
You can hide everywhere, and you can at least try to make up excuses when the bad guys find you!
"Invasion? What invasion, i'm out here camping for the last two weeks! Radio? The point of this trip is getting away from civilisation!
Oh, those military binocs? Birdwatching man! Cost me a fortune, but i can count a Jaybirds feathers from half a mile out!
The rifle? Come on, you've seen a Stuffer Shack out here? I'm hunting my food!
What about that compact com unit, don't you guys know anything? Only a fool goes camping in the hills without a way to call the rangers is something goes south, like a broken leg!"

Try something like that after they've shot you out of your Stinger...   8)

I am very much with you here, although I would tend to go with a Ferret VTOL and/or the recon variant of the Donar instead for better maneuverability, longer lines of sight, and greater reusability.  After all, even if that motorcycle scout does avoid serious trouble (not sure why he has a gun though) he will probably be detained so you loose the recon asset, and if he is playing innocent he will not really be able to do much sneaking away without arousing suspicions.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #33 on: 16 January 2013, 02:43:48 »
Wasn't entirely serious there  ;)

Point is, even if you might lose him as a recon asset, he has a better chance to hide and survive, be it in the wilds or in the city, than a guy in a 20 ton warmachine.
Even the TPTB joke at this, see TRO3085, Wolfhound.

And even if you really lose him, the bike costs a little bit less than the Mech!

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #34 on: 16 January 2013, 18:00:48 »
The 6L seems to avoid most of the problems the other Stingers have as scouts.  The stealth armor (and fairly large amount of it) make it hard to detect and surprisingly hard to kill under fire.  The armament isn't impressive, but moving at locust speeds helps it be a better recon mech.  It is slower in broken terrain (though even at 2 ground mp per hex it can keep pace with a jumping model), but overall I like it as a scout and harasser.  Fun thing to do with it is running behind a mech and shooting it in the rear while bigger mechs occupy the front.  Thanks to the stealth armor, it can't be a secondary target, and because it's behind the enemy it is always the secondary target if it isn't the only target.  So they either have to devote the entire unit's shooting at the bug that's shooting up their rear armor, or they deal with the big threats up front.  Just wish it had ER Mediums instead of the standard Mediums (or even one ER and one standard) to give it a bit of much needed range. 

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #35 on: 16 January 2013, 19:31:11 »
Wasn't entirely serious there  ;)

I know, but that does not make you any less right. ;)

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Point is, even if you might lose him as a recon asset, he has a better chance to hide and survive, be it in the wilds or in the city, than a guy in a 20 ton warmachine.
Even the TPTB joke at this, see TRO3085, Wolfhound.

And even if you really lose him, the bike costs a little bit less than the Mech!

Honestly, the biker and all his gear combined probably costs less than just the 'MechWarrior inside the stupid thing after you factor in training and configuring a neurohelmet.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #36 on: 18 January 2013, 11:49:14 »
As quite note about the Stinger in the Dark Age.  A notable pilot of one was Jonah Levin (future Exarch of the RotS), he used one in 3110 on Kurragin while serving in the Republic Standing Guard.  The thing was stripped down by ex-Mercs who sold them to the Republic for use.  Stripped of Jumpjets, thing only had its ER ML and Rocket Launcher pack left to it.  Facing down the House
Ma-Tzu Kai was interesting battle...
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #37 on: 18 January 2013, 11:53:09 »
...Or an Aerospace fighter. Or Conventional fighter.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #38 on: 18 January 2013, 13:50:16 »
As quite note about the Stinger in the Dark Age.  A notable pilot of one was Jonah Levin (future Exarch of the RotS), he used one in 3110 on Kurragin while serving in the Republic Standing Guard.  The thing was stripped down by ex-Mercs who sold them to the Republic for use.  Stripped of Jumpjets, thing only had its ER ML and Rocket Launcher pack left to it.  Facing down the House
Ma-Tzu Kai was interesting battle...

Dude: Citation PLEASE! Seeing that in 3110, Warrior house Ma-Tsu Kai is back? I want to know where this was printed so I
see that for myself!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #39 on: 18 January 2013, 23:42:02 »
Dude: Citation PLEASE! Seeing that in 3110, Warrior house Ma-Tsu Kai is back? I want to know where this was printed so I
see that for myself!
Its in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31.   Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia.  They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #40 on: 19 January 2013, 00:49:36 »
Everyone, get your old timey duds out. Here's the text file from the original Wasp MotW by CoyoteWarDog in 2004 as saved by Adjudicator

Pastebin version for those who can't open attachments.

Edit: I appear to have posted the Wasp article in the Stinger thread. I don't have an archived Stinger MotW, but you know, back in the old days, they were alllllmost the same and substitutable, much like butter and margerine.
« Last Edit: 19 January 2013, 00:56:49 by chanman »

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #41 on: 19 January 2013, 01:18:37 »
The other original light, for some reason always liked the Wasp more...  The Stinger IIC is just lethal though
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #42 on: 19 January 2013, 22:06:41 »
Its in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31.   Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia.  They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.

Yay! Ma-Tsu Kai is not dead for good after the Jihad!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #43 on: 20 January 2013, 14:28:19 »
Personally, I have never understood why there wasn't an official variant with a medium and 2 small lasers.......

Anyways, I have been using the 5T quite a bit lately..... but I also tend to mix it in with other 6/9 movers .... to include my Wolftrap, etc.
One nice thing about the figs, is that they are all fairly small and inoffensive looking..... and at 341 for BV2, there's always room for that 5T.
Then again, if you use infernos for the two MML3's... you can go anti-infantry.
I've also loaded it with 2 tons of LRM ammo and held it back as a fire support unit...with tag equipped missiles, it can provide indirect missiles for a bargain.....

That said, I really do not like the XL engine in a light mech..... or anything really under 50 to 55 tons.... and without the weight savings, there's not a lot you can do with 20 ton designs.

You just have to remember that these are NOT designed to work alone. Mix them in with other 6/9 designs.... I pair them with Uziels, run them alongside Kabutos and other lights, or just use them in packs..... a lone Stinger is a dead Stinger.
Personally, I want to see a Stinger with Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and a Light PPC, with 2 small Lasers.....
That would be, at least, useful as a sniper.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #44 on: 20 January 2013, 14:38:03 »
Personally, I want to see a Stinger with Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and a Light PPC, with 2 small Lasers.....
That would be, at least, useful as a sniper.
You mean like the 3P ?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #45 on: 20 January 2013, 14:47:43 »
You mean like the 3P ?
The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...

Hence the small lasers.
They also give you a slight punch if you do get a backshot, and cover the minimum of the Light PPC...... which should only happen if your opponent uses something that is fast enough that you can't get away.

Although the question remains.... has anyone refitted a stinger with Reflec armor?
I've noticed that a lot of the counters to the bug mechs are either pulse lasers or ERPPC's and TC's......
Maybe Reflec armor might help?

Nahuris
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #46 on: 20 January 2013, 16:08:28 »
The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...

Hence the small lasers.
They also give you a slight punch if you do get a backshot, and cover the minimum of the Light PPC...... which should only happen if your opponent uses something that is fast enough that you can't get away.

Although the question remains.... has anyone refitted a stinger with Reflec armor?
I've noticed that a lot of the counters to the bug mechs are either pulse lasers or ERPPC's and TC's......
Maybe Reflec armor might help?

Nahuris

That opens you up to artillery cannons which will shred 20 tonners with ease.  Also, Stingers are not really fast enough to need targeting bonuses and are usually obliged to close to short/medium range so you can generally smash them with whatever you have.  If they had real speed like the Firemoth then it would be a good idea, but as is it would be throwing good money after bad.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #47 on: 27 January 2013, 04:11:44 »
When me and my friends played the Clan invasion battles or at least clan tech vs the IS who faced them in the invasion any Stingers/Wasps I had always ended out smoking hulks or legless wrecks when trying to carry out their mission, although I did once charge a Thor with a Stinger and kinda ended out smeared over its torso as the MG ammo went up thanks to collision damage.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #48 on: 27 January 2013, 05:52:20 »
When me and my friends played the Clan invasion battles or at least clan tech vs the IS who faced them in the invasion any Stingers/Wasps I had always ended out smoking hulks or legless wrecks when trying to carry out their mission, although I did once charge a Thor with a Stinger and kinda ended out smeared over its torso as the MG ammo went up thanks to collision damage.


So I can't claim to have tried this but I would have thought that the classic Bug 'Mechs would be best used against the Clans as scouts and recce with orders not to engage and I would only use them on secondary lines of approach where hopefully they will come up against lesser 'Mechs or Elementals if anything and be able to run away. Against a Thor/Summoner I'm impressed it managed to get to touching distance!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #49 on: 27 January 2013, 06:47:44 »
Basically I was using them as scouts, they were so under gunned they didn't stand a chance against any head hunters or scout hunters, heck even elemental points could rip one apart in short order.  In the battle where I charged one into a Thor it was more a case of the Thor being distracted by a Rifleman and Chameleon than being unable to hit the Stinger.  It was busy tearing the Rifleman apart and I tried to do what I could to help, the Chameleon was battered and close to overheating so I just ran the Stinger at it. Didn't expect it to work but I had a big smile on my face when I did hit.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #50 on: 27 January 2013, 20:48:58 »
And the Thor (or the Clan Commander) had a new 'Mech commissioned with that pilot's name on it. They may not like physicals, but anyone who blows themselves up smashing you in the chest (or face) gets major points from them...

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #51 on: 04 February 2013, 00:44:12 »
I just posted a batrep (found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html )  of a 3028 battle in which I used a Wasp 1D and a Stinger 3G and they both did fantastic and even went toe-to-toe with assaults and heavies!

In the SW era, I'd say they are superb scout and fast attack machines!
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #52 on: 11 February 2013, 00:50:53 »
I just posted a batrep (found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html )  of a 3028 battle in which I used a Wasp 1D and a Stinger 3G and they both did fantastic and even went toe-to-toe with assaults and heavies!

In the SW era, I'd say they are superb scout and fast attack machines!

Of course, yer Wasp was one-shot during the withdrawal; and your opponent had more pressing matters.  All the same, knowing how to use the little guys will certainly improve their chances. :)

-To the question about the Black Widow Company: Three Stingers (two in the recon lance) and a Wasp.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #53 on: 11 February 2013, 01:39:39 »
Of course, yer Wasp was one-shot during the withdrawal; and your opponent had more pressing matters.  All the same, knowing how to use the little guys will certainly improve their chances. :)

-To the question about the Black Widow Company: Three Stingers (two in the recon lance) and a Wasp.

Still, the Stinger alone held up the advance of the Catapult and enemy Archer for several turns while my Wasp and Archers concentrated on the Goliath and Awesome. Without that delay single-handedly bought by the Stinger, the Catapult and enemy Archer would have had at least an extra turn or two to fire at the DropShip which would have cost me the game.

The Stinger did its job and even knocked the enemy Archer off its feet once with a kick and it survived the battle. Both 20-tonners did so well that I will be using 20-tonners a lot more in the future.

I do understand their limitations. A single hit, especially from something like a Gauss Rifle, will be fatal and Pulse Lasers do take away a lot of their advantage of high to-hit modifiers, but I have played Kit Foxes with my Clan Wolf forces, which have similar speed and almost as bad armor, and have had the Kit Foxes do very well and even survive the battles.

Light 'Mechs have their uses and can be a very cheap way to distract the enemy and buy time for other forces when used correctly. I have used light 'Mechs successfully in enough battles now to believe that they have a legitimate combat role and shouldn't just be regulated to scouting.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #54 on: 11 February 2013, 01:46:30 »
Still, the Stinger alone held up the advance of the Catapult and enemy Archer for several turns while my Wasp and Archers concentrated on the Goliath and Awesome. Without that delay single-handedly bought by the Stinger, the Catapult and enemy Archer would have had at least an extra turn or two to fire at the DropShip which would have cost me the game.

The Stinger did its job and even knocked the enemy Archer off its feet once with a kick and it survived the battle. Both 20-tonners did so well that I will be using 20-tonners a lot more in the future.

I do understand their limitations. A single hit, especially from something like a Gauss Rifle, will be fatal and Pulse Lasers do take away a lot of their advantage of high to-hit modifiers, but I have played Kit Foxes with my Clan Wolf forces, which have similar speed and almost as bad armor, and have had the Kit Foxes do very well and even survive the battles.

Light 'Mechs have their uses and can be a very cheap way to distract the enemy and buy time for other forces when used correctly. I have used light 'Mechs successfully in enough battles now to believe that they have a legitimate combat role and shouldn't just be regulated to scouting.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #55 on: 15 May 2014, 07:07:35 »
To be fair, you can remove Stinger from your post and replace it with 'every 20 ton (Inner Sphere) 'Mech in existance'.

There are some inherent penalties to the lightest units, for example  cockpit weight and Gyro weight taking up such a large percentage of their mass, maximum armor limits and so on.  30-35 tons, to me, is as light as I'd go in fielding a 'line' battlemech. 25 tonners and below, even at lower cost, simply have too many drawbacks and wont survive on the modern battlefield against well equipped units.
Cockpit is 3 tons, gyro is going to be at least 2, that's 5 tons, or 25% of your weight on a Stinger. The cockpit on a vehicle only weighs 2 tons.

And has anyone else called lair on the Notable Pilot write up for the -3P yet? After a field gun rips it's leg off the Stinger some how ones the fight. Given that IS + Armor on that location is 11, that means the gun was either a GR or AC/20. If we take the GR and standard WoB platoon size of 18, that means it would take 4 shoots to disable the gun, while it's still shooting back

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #56 on: 15 May 2014, 08:27:07 »
The IIC idea intrigued me until I saw the weapons load.  Why HMLs on a 6/9 20 tonner???  Need to be able to move at least 11-12 for that to work.  Clan built ERMLs would be a much better solution at 6/9.  They lose some damage but gain range to not make you a sitting duck if you need to fight.

I like heavy lasers but not here.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #57 on: 15 May 2014, 08:51:53 »
The IIC idea intrigued me until I saw the weapons load.  Why HMLs on a 6/9 20 tonner???  Need to be able to move at least 11-12 for that to work.  Clan built ERMLs would be a much better solution at 6/9.  They lose some damage but gain range to not make you a sitting duck if you need to fight.

I like heavy lasers but not here.

It's basically a straightforward STG-3G upgrade with an AP Gauss thrown in to get some of the 3R's anti-infantry capability back as the cherry on top. Essentially the same familiar range, movement, and armor profiles the Raven Alliance's former IS Stinger pilots already know, just uses Clantech to hit twice as hard with each laser (at no loss of accuracy at that because, hey, iHMLs). Given its backstory, I'd say it's a plausible enough design.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #58 on: 15 May 2014, 12:16:39 »
I see your point there, makes more sense.  I'm not much for lights to start with but it seemed like a good idea for some reason.  The ability to cause a PSR with a 20 ton mech is nothing to laugh at though.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #59 on: 15 May 2014, 13:20:10 »
Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun: Flutter about and avoid attention and(more importantly) damage while the fight rages around you, and when the opportunity arises, blow someone's spine out through their chest and flit away before anyone else can respond. }:)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #60 on: 15 May 2014, 14:08:51 »
Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun:
Best. Mental. Image. Ever.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #61 on: 15 May 2014, 14:25:39 »
Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun: Flutter about and avoid attention and(more importantly) damage while the fight rages around you, and when the opportunity arises, blow someone's spine out through their chest and flit away before anyone else can respond. }:)

I'm much more of a hit them over the head with gauss slug or two from 15 hexes or so then lumber past their carcass player.

But that might be fun!


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #62 on: 15 May 2014, 15:37:58 »
Best. Mental. Image. Ever.
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #63 on: 15 May 2014, 15:44:58 »
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.

You mean you aren't?

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #64 on: 15 May 2014, 15:49:47 »
I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.

I don't know, sounds like pretty standard Dresden Files fare to me. ;)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #65 on: 15 May 2014, 16:48:13 »
I'm much more of a hit them over the head with gauss slug or two from 15 hexes or so then lumber past their carcass player.

But that might be fun!

It's fun, and a lot cheaper than most Gauss carriers. Devastators and Daishis can be very effective, but can only be in so many places at once, and their tactics can be pretty predictable at this point. On the other hand, how many STG IICs can you get for that Devastator? That's a lot more threats to keep track of, that move a lot faster, and aren't all eliminated by a single Gauss-meets-face.

I'm not saying that big assault guns-on-legs are useless, mind you, but they're not for every role. Now if you want a lot of fun, try teaming a few STG-IICs with your big boys, and try using one group to flush your enemies out of cover and drive them towards the other group. >:D

I'm enjoying the implication that we should already be familiar with the ins and outs of shotgun-toting fairies.

While they've rarely hit this hard, we've had 'mechs like this for a VERY long time, going all the way back to the original Stingers and Wasps if you knew how to use them. New players have an excuse, but the rest of us should be familiar with this kind of stuff. I mean, we've had the WSP-1W for how long now? :)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #66 on: 15 May 2014, 17:44:34 »
I don't own the Prototypes Record Sheet book, does it include the IIC 2 record sheet?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #67 on: 15 May 2014, 19:35:10 »
Weirdo, while I see where you are coming from, the Stinger IIC just does not have the mobility to pull it off with Clan tech on the field.  It is barely faster than the 75 ton Timber Wolf, the 40 ton Viper carries more firepower while moving much faster, and the Fire Moth H is far faster and has more than double the firepower for about the same BV.  About the only thing I can see using it for against a real opponent is a cheap, expendable urban combat 'Mech to provide support to dispersed infantry units and help them stall the enemy's thrust until your real forces can be brought to bear.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #68 on: 15 May 2014, 19:44:32 »
Citing the extremes does not make the middle any less effective.  Just because something does it better doesn't mean the Stinger can't do its job well enough.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #69 on: 15 May 2014, 19:54:37 »
Citing the extremes does not make the middle any less effective.  Just because something does it better doesn't mean the Stinger can't do its job well enough.

I am sorry if I did not feel like listing nearly every 5/8/0 or faster design on the books for you, but the fact of the matter is that the Stinger IIC stacks up terribly against the competition with mediocre speed, poor firepower, and abysmal armor.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #70 on: 15 May 2014, 19:58:58 »
@Weirdo.... You mean a 5/8 hammer with a 4/6 anvil is doing it wrong???



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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #71 on: 15 May 2014, 21:01:04 »
Weirdo, while I see where you are coming from, the Stinger IIC just does not have the mobility to pull it off with Clan tech on the field.  It is barely faster than the 75 ton Timber Wolf, the 40 ton Viper carries more firepower while moving much faster, and the Fire Moth H is far faster and has more than double the firepower for about the same BV.  About the only thing I can see using it for against a real opponent is a cheap, expendable urban combat 'Mech to provide support to dispersed infantry units and help them stall the enemy's thrust until your real forces can be brought to bear.

What Clan do you play, where top-of-the-line Omnis are the scout 'mech of choice for second-line troops and non-Clan militias? Such a powerful faction must surely already be ilClan, and us mere mortals simply haven't noticed yet. Can you do us a favor and break it to us gently, please?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #72 on: 15 May 2014, 21:44:54 »
What Clan do you play, where top-of-the-line Omnis are the scout 'mech of choice for second-line troops and non-Clan militias? Such a powerful faction must surely already be ilClan, and us mere mortals simply haven't noticed yet. Can you do us a favor and break it to us gently, please?

As I said to Scotty, those were representative examples, not an exhaustive list.  Just about everything beats the Stinger IIC in at least two ways, and most beat it in every way.  Even a very highly specialized design like the Piranah beats it in every way and a number of designs with serious flaws like the Clint IIC blow it out of the water.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #73 on: 15 May 2014, 21:50:02 »
This right here is the difference between "play what you have and enjoy it" and "complain about not having front line equipment".

Yes, we know that the Stinger IIC is not a beacon of spectacular 'Mech design.  We know that there are 'Mechs out there, even a lot of 'Mechs, that do the job better.  This is not an article about those 'Mechs.  This article is about how to use what is in the article, and that you may end up using if you're not restricting yourself to what is optimal to use in a given situation.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #74 on: 15 May 2014, 21:54:24 »
As I said to Scotty, those were representative examples, not an exhaustive list.  Just about everything beats the Stinger IIC in at least two ways, and most beat it in every way.  Even a very highly specialized design like the Piranah beats it in every way and a number of designs with serious flaws like the Clint IIC blow it out of the water.

But how many of them are meant for the same role? There's no point at all comparing the Stinger IIC to the Dragonfly or Mad Cat, since they're all meant for very different roles.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #75 on: 16 May 2014, 00:04:27 »
Developing that further, I could see a mixed star of Stinger IIC & IIC 2s painted gold to assault drop from a dropship in orbit . . . landing behind the line of some raider.  Star Commander Cassius's motto for the star is 'Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee.'

While it is being compared to top of the line equipment . . . I imagine it is also pretty cheap BV-wise?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #76 on: 16 May 2014, 00:27:26 »
While it is being compared to top of the line equipment . . . I imagine it is also pretty cheap BV-wise?

BV 730 for the standard model; the value for the 2 doesn't seem to have made it into the MUL yet. MegaMekLab puts it at 1021 (and SSW, once I copy the MML version over manually, seems to agree), but that may not be the final answer because in both programs it also seems to come out half a ton underweight, so either the designers chose to randomly waste that weight or there's some detail missing yet. (Armor looks already maxed out, so that can't be it.)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #77 on: 16 May 2014, 00:34:59 »
730 is not bad . . . IIRC the Fire Moth H is around 500 and the Phantom H is 930s.  Not saying it is great, but used as a surprise force where they can quickly establish the shorter range they need with cover for hit & fade work . . . I can see some problems for the opposing commander.

Of course, the real test is not how it does against other Clan equipment but rather same time period Drac gear.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #78 on: 16 May 2014, 02:11:29 »
Diablo48.... it's simple.
People ignore Stingers.......
Even the Stinger with the Rockets.
I've fielded Stingers, and even managed to just walk around to the back of my opponent, and he ignored it...... (I ran, but the terrain was crap, so, at best, I managed 4 hexes a round of actual movement)........

I am not sure why, but people see Stinger, and promptly decide it's a 20 ton waste.... they compare it to other designs, or cite how poor it is, and then promptly decide it's not worth chasing around.... so I hold them back, and then unleash them at the right time...... and no, I am not disparaging you. Nearly every player I have faced has laughed, and pointed out the Wolfhound, or some other mech, and then question me as to why I "wasted" a unit with the Stinger.
Usually, somewhere during that battle, I also get an "oh crap, I forgot that it was there" moment to savor......

Then, there is always the 3P... complete with a Light PPC.....

The thing with the Stinger is that once you spring it, people will probably hurt it, or kill it quick.. . but if you play it right, don't attract a lot of attention, and never leave it as the only target (unless that's part of the plan), you can pretty much run it around with impunity...... people just don't tend to pay attention to them.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #79 on: 16 May 2014, 02:33:37 »
I don't own the Prototypes Record Sheet book, does it include the IIC 2 record sheet?

Doubt it. The info on the 2 is from the write-up in Prototypes. We have to wait for them to get around to a Prototypes Unabridged PDF file to see where everything is. And if they've added any new variants...

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #80 on: 16 May 2014, 11:06:46 »
BV 730 for the standard model; the value for the 2 doesn't seem to have made it into the MUL yet. MegaMekLab puts it at 1021 (and SSW, once I copy the MML version over manually, seems to agree), but that may not be the final answer because in both programs it also seems to come out half a ton underweight, so either the designers chose to randomly waste that weight or there's some detail missing yet. (Armor looks already maxed out, so that can't be it.)

It's 1097 BV. So yeah, you missed something. ;)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #81 on: 16 May 2014, 11:23:26 »
I don't own the Prototypes Record Sheet book, does it include the IIC 2 record sheet?

I could be wrong, but I do not believe they have ever released an Prototypes Unabridged.
I would love it if they did so I could use the Svartalfa 2(since they always leave information
out in the Variants description, like how many shots it has)
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #82 on: 16 May 2014, 11:29:21 »
It's 1097 BV. So yeah, you missed something. ;)

Oh, it's not just me. I'm drawing from the stats currently included with MegaMek/MegaMekLab, so if there's something off with those they'll eventually need fixing for more than just my sake.

*tinkers*

Ah...I think I see. That version should actually be a full ton underweight because it drops the right arm iHML along with the AP Gauss, but disguises that by then maxing out the head armor for an extra half-ton (wasting seven points in the process ::)). Revert to the standard version's armor configuration and add the laser back in and you do end up at 1097 (and a potential 37 points of heat on a jumping alpha strike vs. the base ten DHS for dissipation -- ouch).

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #83 on: 16 May 2014, 11:30:18 »
I could be wrong, but I do not believe they have ever released an Prototypes Unabridged.
I would love it if they did so I could use the Svartalfa 2(since they always leave information
out in the Variants description, like how many shots it has)
They put out a print book that I believe only covers the main variants in Prototypes, not the second (or more). This has put a serious crimp in writing articles on certain designs (I'm looking at you, Mad Cat III).

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #84 on: 16 May 2014, 11:51:24 »
Diablo48.... it's simple.
People ignore Stingers.......
Even the Stinger with the Rockets.
I've fielded Stingers, and even managed to just walk around to the back of my opponent, and he ignored it...... (I ran, but the terrain was crap, so, at best, I managed 4 hexes a round of actual movement)........

I am not sure why, but people see Stinger, and promptly decide it's a 20 ton waste.... they compare it to other designs, or cite how poor it is, and then promptly decide it's not worth chasing around.... so I hold them back, and then unleash them at the right time...... and no, I am not disparaging you. Nearly every player I have faced has laughed, and pointed out the Wolfhound, or some other mech, and then question me as to why I "wasted" a unit with the Stinger.
Usually, somewhere during that battle, I also get an "oh crap, I forgot that it was there" moment to savor......

Then, there is always the 3P... complete with a Light PPC.....

The thing with the Stinger is that once you spring it, people will probably hurt it, or kill it quick.. . but if you play it right, don't attract a lot of attention, and never leave it as the only target (unless that's part of the plan), you can pretty much run it around with impunity...... people just don't tend to pay attention to them.

Nahuris

the 3025 Stinger was fairly safe to ignore.. used right it was a nasty little bug, but few could use it well enough. one ML and 2 MG's just didn't offer much in the way of combat power. even the 2ML version wasn't much better.

so people started ignoring it. and kept that attitude even after the more recent updates. (to be fair, the 3050 upgrade model didn't really do it any favors)

those who came in in more modern times tend to be infected with the common attitude of "light mechs are obsolete on the modern XL/Endo/Ferro/ER/TC battlefield", and tend to just ignore anything under 40 tons.. unless it is an extreme exploit machine, like the Dasher H.

used correctly, a light mech can be nasty. used en mass with focused fire, modern light's can do horrific things. (Mercer Ravannion had a good idea, he just needed more advanced technology than he had available to make it work at the mech weight he was using)

DarkISI

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #85 on: 16 May 2014, 11:56:25 »
Oh, it's not just me. I'm drawing from the stats currently included with MegaMek/MegaMekLab, so if there's something off with those they'll eventually need fixing for more than just my sake.

*tinkers*

Ah...I think I see. That version should actually be a full ton underweight because it drops the right arm iHML along with the AP Gauss, but disguises that by then maxing out the head armor for an extra half-ton (wasting seven points in the process ::)). Revert to the standard version's armor configuration and add the laser back in and you do end up at 1097 (and a potential 37 points of heat on a jumping alpha strike vs. the base ten DHS for dissipation -- ouch).

I hat to say this, but: As long as the RS hasn't been released, I can't tell you if you are right or wrong. Sorry.
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A. Lurker

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #86 on: 16 May 2014, 12:03:29 »
I hat to say this, but: As long as the RS hasn't been released, I can't tell you if you are right or wrong. Sorry.

Nah, it's okay. I'll file a bug report on the relevant tracker as a reminder to fix that once the record sheet is out, though.

Orin J.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #87 on: 17 May 2014, 21:49:58 »
@Weirdo.... You mean a 5/8 hammer with a 4/6 anvil is doing it wrong???

the Anvil's movement is 5/8/3 though!.....

wait. derp, nevermind.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #88 on: 17 May 2014, 22:49:58 »
Some games, a stinger is about all i have left that hasnt been legged, TACed or headcapped...  Seemed like when we were going through the old Tales of the Black Widow about half the mechs you got to use were stingers... 

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #89 on: 17 May 2014, 23:58:16 »
Seemed like when we were going through the old Tales of the Black Widow about half the mechs you got to use were stingers...

Possibly based on that old TRO:3025 anecdote about the Wolf's Dragoons raid on Doneval II in 3021 in the Stinger's own fluff. Involving, yes, their Black Widow Company and a lance of trainees in Stingers saving their instructor (who each of them had a crush on) from a Black Widow Wasp...if somebody wanted to recreate the action on that planet, I'd kind of expect those cadets and their training 'Mechs to show up. Potentially more than once, even. :)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #90 on: 19 May 2014, 15:59:11 »
my only issue with the IIC is that at it's armor levels losing a half to a ton somewhere would allowed it to pack a light active probe that would had helped it for it's scouting role to being able to add a second ap gauss and a light active probe for more firepower and improved scouting abilities or go for a full active probe.

or heck even add a Target comp for.

at it's 20 tonner armor levels getting hit generally means it's dead or effectively dead and gonna be dead soon anyways.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #91 on: 19 May 2014, 16:59:03 »
The IIC isn't a scout, it's a backstabber, like the classic Stinger

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #92 on: 19 May 2014, 17:09:03 »
the few Stingers that should up in the 3025 games I played in got abused by the light mechs we used. I do see the stock 3025 as a decent police mech. MGs for the peeps and the laser for the get away car.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #93 on: 19 May 2014, 17:26:34 »

I've always like the 3G Stinger in 3025 play as a scout-v-scout combat.  That second medium laser gives it better concentrated punch than the stock or the stock Wasp.  The jump mobility gives it an advantage over something like a Locust or a Commando.

Stingers aren't designed to be front combat units, but as scouts in the original setting they are very useful.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #94 on: 20 May 2014, 15:12:38 »
The IIC isn't a scout, it's a backstabber, like the classic Stinger

Exactly!
I put a lot of focus on that in the fluff. Especially when it came to the variant description and configuration.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #95 on: 02 June 2014, 23:29:43 »
I don't know, sounds like pretty standard Dresden Files fare to me. ;)

Are you thinking of Mab with the Saga-12?  'Cause Toot-Toot had been rocking the box knife for a while... and Mab would be pissed if you called her a faerie.

I've always like the 3G Stinger in 3025 play as a scout-v-scout combat.  That second medium laser gives it better concentrated punch than the stock or the stock Wasp.  The jump mobility gives it an advantage over something like a Locust or a Commando.

Stingers aren't designed to be front combat units, but as scouts in the original setting they are very useful.

I've always been fond of the STG-3G...except for its low head armor.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #96 on: 04 June 2014, 15:22:40 »
people are always trying to max out there forces and not taking in to account how desperate people were for mechs any mechs.  Stinger were easy to build and easy to maintain.  That one reason why there were produce in nearly every single house.  Stinger main function was that of a sentry.  It stand on an area you want to have mech sensors available to watch and to give out a warn when trouble comes calling.  If it engages an enemy then it did something wrong.  The weapons are just enough to discourage local rabble from trying to anything sneaking like setting a satchel charge on the ankles.  We can all name mechs that are better that cause the stinger, wasp and the locust are the bottom of the totem pole they make up for there lack of abilities with there bites.  Let face it someone has to be at the bottom.  The best 20 by the way is the solitaire.  I dare anyone ignore that mech for long. 

I always had an affection for the stinger ever since I read Trell 1 where a stinger karate chop another mech head off and while there may be better mech out there.  I will always sneak a stinger in my company somewhere just for kicks.  With a preference for the P series cause let face it if you want to sting what better way then a light ppc.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #97 on: 04 June 2014, 15:32:18 »
The best 20 by the way is the solitaire.  I dare anyone ignore that mech for long.

Well, you have to admit -- it's kind of easy to be the best 20-tonner when you're both a full-blooded Clan design and manage to sneak an extra five tons past the judges. :D

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #98 on: 04 June 2014, 16:48:09 »
Well, you have to admit -- it's kind of easy to be the best 20-tonner when you're both a full-blooded Clan design and manage to sneak an extra five tons past the judges. :D

hush.. for some reason I am thinking it 20tons not 25.. but what the heck hellion are sneaky like that

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #99 on: 04 June 2014, 23:53:56 »
Fire Moth G all the way

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger
« Reply #100 on: 05 June 2014, 02:16:57 »
Noooooooooooo, the best 20 ton mech is the Locust 6M!!! If speed is life then this thing is immortal!  :D