Author Topic: Cached out?  (Read 30479 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #30 on: 29 August 2019, 12:29:22 »
Or its a fad/style thing?  For instance, I do not know too many people who would want a mid-80s Mustang but would love the previous body-style in the 70s . . . so 3000 era Clanners were fine with LAMs, but snobbery 50 years later has them wrecking the machines.
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Ursus Maior

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #31 on: 29 August 2019, 15:32:51 »
Filthy, freebirth spies deserve dezgra equipment... at least that's how I imagine the Clans rationalized it at the time.
Plus: They have to spy on degenerate IS surats, who defiled the Star League that was.
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RifleMech

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #32 on: 30 August 2019, 14:57:02 »
The interesting part would be that during the Invasion the Clans considered Inner Sphere LAM's to be dishonorable and destroyed them with prejudice. But they opened up Brian Caches to arm the Dragoons, not just once but multiple times with new gear. Including LAM's.

Or its a fad/style thing?  For instance, I do not know too many people who would want a mid-80s Mustang but would love the previous body-style in the 70s . . . so 3000 era Clanners were fine with LAMs, but snobbery 50 years later has them wrecking the machines.


The lack of information concerning the Clans and LAMs has always bugged me.  If the Clans did not use LAMs prior to 3000 who trained the Wolf and Goliath Scorpion LAM Pilots that were assigned to Wolf's Dragoons?  Who trained the techs to maintain them? They would have needed to be trained before being assigned to the Dragoons so they could train with their unit. There wouldn't have been enough time for them to undergo LAM training and then train with their units. To me that means LAMs were in use in at least two Clans as of 3005.

I'm not saying all Clans used LAMs. I'm not saying that every Clan even had LAMs and I'm not even saying that those that did had them in every galaxy. But I do believe that LAMs were in use with some Clans until at least 3005. So where did they go? Lost in trials? A change in command with a change in attitude towards LAMs? Some other reason? A combination of reasons?

As to the Nova Cat's razing the LAM factory, at some point the Clans stopped using LAMs so they wouldn't be prepared to face them. Since LAMs can be frustrating to their opponents, maybe the Nova Cat's got so frustrated by LAM tactics and took their frustration out on the factory? Or maybe they just hated the blurring of Mech and Aerospace rules that LAMs create?

I don't know. I'd love to know. Maybe someday we will. Of course I'd love to see the Jade Falcon LAMs and I'd love to know why the Hell's Horses aren't using them. I would have thought they'd fit in with their Quad/Vees.

Colt Ward

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #33 on: 30 August 2019, 15:28:13 »
WELL . . . if they were viewed negatively b/c being a hybrid it makes sense they were in the Caches- "One day we might need this."  The Scorpions dusted off all their archived material from the Temple, which may have included information on the LAMs.  So their practices could have all been from live fire training with the Scorpions via 'learn as we go' which makes you wonder how many of them died in that process.  The dying is not something that would have deterred the Clans from doing it anyway.

If you did have Clans that used them . . . perhaps the Mongoose?  Thus giving the LAMs a bit of a taint?  Otherwise I see the three big aero Clans doing it- Mongoose, Snow Raven and Cloud Cobra.  I think you can also safely say none of the founders were LAM pilots, so its not like they would have been represented that way.
Colt Ward
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dgorsman

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #34 on: 30 August 2019, 16:09:12 »
I can see the first LAM pilots issuing trials:
"You go first."
"No, YOU go first."

Maybe the records included training protocols and schematics for appropriate simulators as well.
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Warship

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #35 on: 30 August 2019, 20:42:04 »
The Scorpions probably kept several active just out of their love for all things Star League.  That said, their LAM's were probably not included in their Touman once the Pilot genotype created a definite split between Mechwarriors and Pilots.  Then the bias grew over the years into outright hostility towards them. That is, of course, unless darling Nikky had some sort of bias against them earlier.  Either way, the Scorpions would keeping them, maybe even trading for those of other Clans.  Personally, I always saw LAM's as a tool for Special Forces, like Death Commandos, lacking a Clan equivalent.

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #36 on: 30 August 2019, 21:40:22 »
Thing is that LAM were unseen which was part of the problem and was way too strongly channelling Macross vibe.  thus it died.  I wish it wasn't the case.

Canon wise, Clans don't work together well except for the Hell's Horses Tankwarriors etc.  Had they gotten over their problem, perhaps LAMs would had chance.

Caches are problemly very few left by time Home World's problem dust had finally settled.

I guess it's a Cache 22.
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RifleMech

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #37 on: 30 August 2019, 22:56:23 »
WELL . . . if they were viewed negatively b/c being a hybrid it makes sense they were in the Caches- "One day we might need this."  The Scorpions dusted off all their archived material from the Temple, which may have included information on the LAMs.  So their practices could have all been from live fire training with the Scorpions via 'learn as we go' which makes you wonder how many of them died in that process.  The dying is not something that would have deterred the Clans from doing it anyway.

If you did have Clans that used them . . . perhaps the Mongoose?  Thus giving the LAMs a bit of a taint?  Otherwise I see the three big aero Clans doing it- Mongoose, Snow Raven and Cloud Cobra.  I think you can also safely say none of the founders were LAM pilots, so its not like they would have been represented that way.

Their being a hybrid would definitely limit their use but I don't think it would have stopped it entirely. At least not initially, and not with all clans. The Scorpions with their love of the SL would have kept using them. I can see the Aero Clans using them and the Hell's Horses along with the Wolves. I can also see some clans not using them at all. I think it'd depend on how "traditional" the clan is. I also think it'd depend on how many LAMs the clan has. I can see some clans having more than others.

I can't see trainees being thrown into live fire training like that. I don't think any would have survived the training and the Dragoons were the equal to other Clan frontline units. Plus it'd be very wasteful. The Clans do use live fire training but they at least train their warriors to pilot their machines first. That would take time. A good example that "on the job training" didn't happen is Kurt Brunner. He was already a Goliath Scorpion Mechwarrior when the Dragoons were formed and tested into them. Another would be unless they're Zombies or Ghosts, the dead don't fight.




The Scorpions probably kept several active just out of their love for all things Star League.  That said, their LAM's were probably not included in their Touman once the Pilot genotype created a definite split between Mechwarriors and Pilots.  Then the bias grew over the years into outright hostility towards them. That is, of course, unless darling Nikky had some sort of bias against them earlier.  Either way, the Scorpions would keeping them, maybe even trading for those of other Clans.  Personally, I always saw LAM's as a tool for Special Forces, like Death Commandos, lacking a Clan equivalent.

Wasn't the Heartvenom Cluster, Clan Goliath Scorpion's special forces unit? They also fit with the Clan's use of precision over brute force. I think bias varied among the clans, similar to the use of vehicles, foot infantry, and free births. I also think bias changed after LAMs were no longer in use, or too expensive to maintain. Once they're use is out of active memory their value gets distorted.


Thing is that LAM were unseen which was part of the problem and was way too strongly channelling Macross vibe.  thus it died.  I wish it wasn't the case.

Canon wise, Clans don't work together well except for the Hell's Horses Tankwarriors etc.  Had they gotten over their problem, perhaps LAMs would had chance.

Caches are problemly very few left by time Home World's problem dust had finally settled.

I guess it's a Cache 22.

Their being Unseen has been a big problem. I wish it wasn't the case too.

Clan members not working well together is why the Jade Falcon LAM program died. Of course they're also pretty strict about maintaining roles, so their LAMs had to have separate aerospace and mech pilots. I would have thought the Falcons would have traded them to the Horses to gain something out of the research. Then again maybe they did and they led to the QuadVees?

That I can see being why the Clans stopped using LAMs. They would have been maintained solely on spare parts, salvage, and expensive fabrication. I can see even the Scorpion's leaders saying no more, and replacing them with Fire Moths and other really fast mechs.

Lol

Red Pins

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #38 on: 30 August 2019, 23:09:02 »
Well - hopefully the caches are emptied and the WarShip caches exhausted of anything economical to refurbish.

Now - what did the Scientists have to hide when the rebellion turned against them?  Oh, I have a list. I've got a little list...
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RifleMech

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #39 on: 31 August 2019, 22:21:53 »
There's always a chance of finding a lost cache or finding out an existing cache is bigger than thought do to reasons. For the moment though, I believe all the old equipment has been taken out and new stockpiles are replacing them.


I'd like a list.




Red Pins

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #40 on: 01 September 2019, 00:34:46 »
...Have you by chance read Maingunnery's XTRO: The Society project?  Awe inspiring.  Then, of course I have the New Clans project I'll never finish.

Then, gasping for breath and limping like a 3-legged horse is CGL.  Should find out how big a time jump it will be and the fate of the Clans, hmm...  '22-23, is my guess.
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RifleMech

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #41 on: 01 September 2019, 06:23:17 »
Yeah. It's a great XTRO!

NutritiousSlop

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #42 on: 05 September 2019, 13:21:29 »
The caches are probably pretty tapped out of familiar Star League/Succession War machines.  However, the Clan economy depends on the production of war material- the Scientist and Technician castes generally only works toward the production of new weapons, and the Labor caste finds itself mostly building those weapons.  In order to keep those non-warriors busy, Clan production lines have to keep running.  The first- and second-gen Omnis are probably filling those caches right now. 

Colt Ward

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #43 on: 05 September 2019, 13:53:15 »
The first- and second-gen Omnis are probably filling those caches right now.

Yup, Lupus/Hellfire fluff backs that up.
Colt Ward
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #44 on: 05 September 2019, 14:21:00 »
When things were cached did the clans go through the trouble of repairing any damage any removing old paint jobs?

I imagine that would depend on the unit but would they strip the paint of a warship???

NutritiousSlop

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #45 on: 05 September 2019, 14:32:26 »
When things were cached did the clans go through the trouble of repairing any damage any removing old paint jobs?

I imagine that would depend on the unit but would they strip the paint of a warship???

I'd guess no.  Or that they'd do something similar to what we do with aircraft boneyards today. 

https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-airplane-boneyard.htm

Apparently, they cover the airplanes in some sort of vinyl-epoxy-ish sealant.  I'd imagine the Clans do just about the same with ground vehicles, 'Mechs, and sub-DropShip aerospace.  I'd also imagine that naval caches get a similar treatment to prevent against micrometeorite impacts. 

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #46 on: 15 September 2019, 19:33:37 »
While doing a re read of the WOR source book I was surprised to see that the stone lions were dusting off a small horses naval cache. This brought a few things to mind:

1) considering that the horses leaving of the HW was planned did they just not need these ships?

      Why not trade them before leaving? Did they choose not to utilize them to keep their fleet movements a secret?

2) considering how much larger the nova cats navy was and how abrupt their leaving was I have to think they had warships in mothballs which got left behind.

     If so what do you suppose they might be?

glitterboy2098

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #47 on: 15 September 2019, 20:01:03 »
i'd guess that the horses didn't touch the naval cache because reactivating those ships would be far too obvious that something was up. it would attract attention, since it would threaten the balance of naval power, and that would run the risk of other clans finding out the plans to relocate.

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #48 on: 16 September 2019, 03:45:22 »
It's also possible that given their schedule, the Horses didn't have the time and/or resources to reactivate the ships in the cache. They've been a resource-poor Clan for much of their existence, and trying to reactivate a bunch of long-dormant ships would require considerable time and effort.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #49 on: 16 September 2019, 05:44:55 »
It's also possible that given their schedule, the Horses didn't have the time and/or resources to reactivate the ships in the cache. They've been a resource-poor Clan for much of their existence, and trying to reactivate a bunch of long-dormant ships would require considerable time and effort.

Agreed and I would think the same would be true for the nova cats

Stormlion1

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #50 on: 16 September 2019, 11:25:42 »
Horses I think were half thinking that there leaving the Homewords was temporary and half not thinking of there warship fleet at all.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #51 on: 24 September 2019, 17:53:36 »
For each clan which had cached warships of their own were they hidden? Who would have had that info if yes?

If no were they all registered in some clan wide database?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #52 on: 24 September 2019, 19:32:52 »
The senior Khan, the Clan's loremaster, maybe some other extremely high ranking members. It's not the sort of thing you advertise.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #53 on: 24 September 2019, 20:03:52 »
The senior Khan, the Clan's loremaster, maybe some other extremely high ranking members. It's not the sort of thing you advertise.

Actually in the Clans, military dispositions were not hidden until Revival . . . so before that, yeah the star charts are going to show everything.  Besides, most worlds being shared, its sort of hard to hide something like that in a system.
Colt Ward
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Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #54 on: 24 September 2019, 20:48:02 »
In terms of finding LAM pilots. is it possible that a warrior who failed to make it as a MechWarrior but requalified as an aerowarrior  would fit? Or is that not possible to do?

Jellico

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #55 on: 24 September 2019, 20:55:55 »
Yup, Lupus/Hellfire fluff backs that up.

One of the Aiden Pryde books had Hellbringers at 2nd line level 😉 

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #56 on: 24 September 2019, 22:25:11 »
In terms of finding LAM pilots. is it possible that a warrior who failed to make it as a MechWarrior but requalified as an aerowarrior  would fit? Or is that not possible to do?

Theoretically possible but extremely rare.
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NutritiousSlop

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #57 on: 25 September 2019, 09:37:11 »
Theoretically possible but extremely rare.

I didn't think phenotypes were allowed to test into different fields, save for maybe unarmored infantry. 

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #58 on: 25 September 2019, 09:40:55 »
I didn't think phenotypes were allowed to test into different fields, save for maybe unarmored infantry.

It happens, but very rarely.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Cached out?
« Reply #59 on: 25 September 2019, 10:02:40 »
I didn't think phenotypes were allowed to test into different fields, save for maybe unarmored infantry.

Standard practice with the Bears, its how a mechwarrior ended up as a Aerospace pilot after failing his mech Trial of Position . . . or a failed mechwarrior ended up a tanker with a bloodname.  I also want to say somewhere I read about Ravens putting Aero phenotypes into VTOLs, but it maybe they were old pilots or test downs.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

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