Why are so few bloodnames active?

[dherve10]

Was there some great culling of bloodnames? In most of the old sourcebooks only around a dozen exclusive bloodnames are given despite the founding clans having 40 members each. I know a few of these original are non-exclusive, but that still seems like a big disparity. I'm also aware that some bloodnames are reaved, but to be down to 33% of the original seems pretty severe. Was there a certain period of Clan history or particular event that has been credited with this phenomenon?

Secondarily, I've noticed some use of names that are not on the active list. For instance, in Bills' Path of Glory, Tirant Higall has a bloodname that is not among the active list given in the Comstar book for the Nova Cats. Are there some blood names that have very low blood counts that are active but so low as to not really be worthy of official mention? In the same novel he talks about the 11 blood chapels in Ways of Seeing Park that correspond to the 11 named in the Comstar Sourcebook, and Higall is not among them.

[The Wobbly Guy]

From a meta perspective, because given the size of each clan touman, it really did not make much sense for all 40 bloodnames to be active with full 25 bloodrights. That makes 1000 bloodnamed warriors in each clan alone. Imagine every time there is a trial of bloodright, you need a pool of 32 warriors to fight for it.

Now assuming the average turnover of bloonames is 20 years, that means there would be 50 bloodname trials a year. The disruption it causes the touman is significant. Also, consider the participant pool - it could mean 50x32 = 1600 warriors involved.

One clan cluster is, at an estimate, 4 mech trinaries (60 mechwarriors), 2 elemental trinaries (150 elementals), and 1 aerospace trinary (30 pilots) = 240 warriors.

Each clan has abt 30-50 clusters. A small clan has abt 7200 warriors only. For 1600 of them to be involved in a bloodname trial is insane. Not to mention, are there even sufficient eligible candidates within those 30 clusters?

So, the current arrangement makes the most sense. Some bloodhouses may have only 1-5 active bloodrights, and even spread across several clans.

[paladin2019]

Why are so few bloodnames active? So that you can make up your own. Completely defined settings are boring for gameplay.

[wantec]

Why are so few bloodnames active? So that you can make up your own. Completely defined settings are boring for gameplay.

This was likely the case back when the Clans first debuted and up until Operation Klondike came out. It left room for writers to work without everything being spelled out.

[Mendrugo]

Was there some great culling of bloodnames? In most of the old sourcebooks only around a dozen exclusive bloodnames are given despite the founding clans having 40 members each. I know a few of these original are non-exclusive, but that still seems like a big disparity. I'm also aware that some bloodnames are reaved, but to be down to 33% of the original seems pretty severe. Was there a certain period of Clan history or particular event that has been credited with this phenomenon?

Secondarily, I've noticed some use of names that are not on the active list. For instance, in Bills' Path of Glory, Tirant Higall has a bloodname that is not among the active list given in the Comstar book for the Nova Cats. Are there some blood names that have very low blood counts that are active but so low as to not really be worthy of official mention? In the same novel he talks about the 11 blood chapels in Ways of Seeing Park that correspond to the 11 named in the Comstar Sourcebook, and Higall is not among them.

An MWDA LinkNet article describes the tradition of the Great Reavings, an annual ritual that was used to trim down bloodhouses that had performed poorly in the previous year.  It noted that, through the use of the practice, some bloodhouses were down to single digits of active bloodrights.  However, once the Pax Republica ended, many more opportunities for martial glory emerged, and the Great Reavings started to feature far more Trials of Propagation than Trials of Reaving, and even some Trials of Founding, bringing the numbers back up.

By 3150, not only are there opportunities for any Bloodhouse you feel like to be active once more, but for never-before-seen Bloodhouses to be active alongside them, such as Magnusson and Miraborg in the Ghost Bears.

[paladin2019]

This was likely the case back when the Clans first debuted and up until Operation Klondike came out. It left room for writers to work without everything being spelled out.

Not just "writers". People are still playing the game and building their own stories.

[dherve10]

Thanks for your responses!

[Generic Clanner 24601]

Unless specifically stated, I just assume all Bloodnames of a Clan are in use. Sure, there might only be a few active Bloodrights for a house. The ones we don't here about are just the lower rung. They don't get the resources or opportunities that the more prominent Bloodhouses get.

[Stormlion1]

Lot of names and lineages have been culled. But look at the Wolves which have shared Bloodnames with the Wolves-in-Exile. There still trying to figure out which are 'true' and which will be culled. Or possibly they will extend bloodname limits past the limits imposed by Nicky K.

[wantec]

Lot of names and lineages have been culled. But look at the Wolves which have shared Bloodnames with the Wolves-in-Exile. There still trying to figure out which are 'true' and which will be culled. Or possibly they will extend bloodname limits past the limits imposed by Nicky K.

It's an interesting situation. Although after the casualties of the battle for Terra and the ilClan trial, there may not be too many duplicate pairs still surviving. If it was me, I'd just let it be until both have died. A more ruthless option would be a battle between the two for the bloodheritage. Let the losing holder battle for a new heritage.

[Kojak]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at the root of the OP's question. The Bloodnames listed in the old Field Manuals aren't the entirety of the Bloodnames available to them -- they're just the ones exclusive, at that time, to that Clan. Hundreds of other Bloodnames exist, they're just used by multiple Clans -- and it's safe to assume that unless otherwise stated somewhere in the fluff, any given Bloodname you can find in the master list in Historical: Operation Klondike is still in use. They might not have the full 25 active lineages, but they're still chugging along, filling out the collective officer corps of the Clans.

[paladin2019]

And, as a cooperative narrative venture with a potentially unlimited number of "AUs", you have to leave a lot of room for unspecified bloodnames that different versions of the setting can create.

[wantec]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at the root of the OP's question. The Bloodnames listed in the old Field Manuals aren't the entirety of the Bloodnames available to them -- they're just the ones exclusive, at that time, to that Clan. Hundreds of other Bloodnames exist, they're just used by multiple Clans -- and it's safe to assume that unless otherwise stated somewhere in the fluff, any given Bloodname you can find in the master list in Historical: Operation Klondike is still in use. They might not have the full 25 active lineages, but they're still chugging along, filling out the collective officer corps of the Clans.

There's also updated lists post-WoR in the Founder's Future section of Wars of Reaving for HW (plus Scorpions) and IS Clans.

[rebs]

It only makes sense that dormant bloodlines are reactivated as time passes and the Clan gene puddle gets thinner, so I think it's actually limited by authors - or conversely, not limited - due to authors either choosing or not choosing to make use of a rare Bloodname.

[Gaiiten]

You shall not forget the importance of the Blood Break festivals.

Many Bloodnamed enjoy great glittering parties on Strana Mechty beaches, so there are only few left to fgith and doing other warriors` thingy .

Source: What you ever want to know about the Clans, but nobody would make effort to write about.

 ;)

[Colt Ward]

Each clan has abt 30-50 clusters. A small clan has abt 7200 warriors only. For 1600 of them to be involved in a bloodname trial is insane. Not to mention, are there even sufficient eligible candidates within those 30 clusters?

Not quite . . . you are forgetting the warriors on warships, dropships, jumpships . . . those in the paramilitary police, those assigned to training sibkos, and provisional garrisons such as those depicted in the Explorer Corps or the Falcon's Nest on Huntress.

Further, MOST Bloodnames are going to be shared . . . while FMCC/WC does not list all exclusives, just the most prominent exclusive.  And most will not have full counts before Op Revival.

But Bloodname competition is one of those things that causes the drastic Clan touman turnover- part of why their 'generation' is 5 years.

[tassa_kay]

FMCC/WC does not list all exclusives, just the most prominent exclusive.

Source for this?

[Hellraiser]

Was there some great culling of bloodnames? In most of the old sourcebooks only around a dozen exclusive bloodnames are given despite the founding clans having 40 members each. I know a few of these original are non-exclusive, but that still seems like a big disparity. I'm also aware that some bloodnames are reaved, but to be down to 33% of the original seems pretty severe. Was there a certain period of Clan history or particular event that has been credited with this phenomenon?

Secondarily, I've noticed some use of names that are not on the active list. For instance, in Bills' Path of Glory, Tirant Higall has a bloodname that is not among the active list given in the Comstar book for the Nova Cats. Are there some blood names that have very low blood counts that are active but so low as to not really be worthy of official mention? In the same novel he talks about the 11 blood chapels in Ways of Seeing Park that correspond to the 11 named in the Comstar Sourcebook, and Higall is not among them.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at the root of the OP's question. The Bloodnames listed in the old Field Manuals aren't the entirety of the Bloodnames available to them -- they're just the ones exclusive, at that time, to that Clan. Hundreds of other Bloodnames exist, they're just used by multiple Clans -- and it's safe to assume that unless otherwise stated somewhere in the fluff, any given Bloodname you can find in the master list in Historical: Operation Klondike is still in use. They might not have the full 25 active lineages, but they're still chugging along, filling out the collective officer corps of the Clans.

^^^   THIS


The Dozen-ish Names listed are NOT the only active names for each clan.

The names listed for each clan are the ones where that clan controls all 25 individual Heritages of that name.

If the name isn't listed, but is one of the original 40 for that house, it means that somewhere along the decades, the house lost control of 1 (or more) of the Heritages along the way & it is now shared by another clan.

For example:

If you count just the base 40 the Wolves started with they had exclusive control of all 25 heritages for only 9 of their bloodnames in 3052  (No Leader-Trio or Widowmakers)

It's not that there were only those names, just that the Wolves were only in control of 24 or less of the heritages.

General - Produces all 3 phenotypes of outstanding caliber.
Fetladral

Mechwarrior - Produces all 3 phenotypes, but, only MW Genes are top of the line.
Carns,  Radick,  Ward      

Elementals - Produces all 3 phenotypes, but, only Elemental Genes are top of the line.
Shaw,  Sradac,  Tutuola

Pilots - Produces all 3 phenotypes, but, only ASP Genes are top of the line.
Ch'in,  Mehta


By the time of the Wars of Reaving,  they had also lost complete control of Sradac & Mehta.
And the Shaw & Ch'in lines were down to less than 6 active heritages each.

Unless specifically stated, I just assume all Bloodnames of a Clan are in use. Sure, there might only be a few active Bloodrights for a house.

Agreed

[Colt Ward]

The Wolves also did not use all of the Widowmaker Bloodnames either- FREX, the guy that shot Nicky?  Yeah, not used.

As for tassa's question, I want to say it was those two books themselves.  I have to find FMWC after some boxes got moved.

[Hellraiser]

The Wolves also did not use all of the Widowmaker Bloodnames either- FREX, the guy that shot Nicky?  Yeah, not used.

That might not be right actually.

Wolf Khan Jerome Winson carried evidence of Clan Widowmaker's brutal treatment of their civilian and lower caste. Although the Widowmakers argued that the Wolves were manipulating them, ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky and the Grand Council would carry out the absorption of Clan Widowmaker. During the fight between Jerome and Cal, Widowmaker mechs were grouping on Khan Winson in order to save their Khan. However, tragedy struck when Cal Jorgensson shot a peering Atlas looking at him. Unknowingly, Cal had just killed Nicholas Kerensky, ilKhan of the Clans (whether the act was unintentional or deliberate is still debated). This act would send the Wolves into a frenzy and kill any living Widowmaker on sight, turning the battle into a virtual Trial of Annihilation. Despite this, the Widowmaker Bloodnames survived the aftermath (save for the Vordermark and Karrige Bloodnames) and live on within Clan Wolf. These Bloodnames would remain dormant until the aftermath of the Refusal War, which split Clan Wolf into two factions. The Crusader Wolves, needing Bloodrights to recuperate from the battle, reactivated these Bloodnames for their Clan.[39]

Its from Sarna & source is WoK

Looks like Khan Jorgensson might have still gotten used, & only lists Vordermark & Karrige as being destroyed.
Not that it has to be super common, maybe just a couple heritages for testing.

[Colt Ward]

So, that passage says they were dormant as Bloodnames until the Refusal War . . . which is superseded by FMCC/WC which has asterisks next to Widowmaker heritages such as Ch'in?  Or Mehta?  I know FMWC talks about how the Warden Wolves have no Bloodnamed from one or two of those Houses and thus will not use the Bloodname for maternal donors though they have access to the genetics.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

We know according to Flight of the Falcon Stone actually convinced the Clans they needed to pare down the # of active bloodnames even moreso because a warrior was "just that awesome" and elite, meaning reavings got even more intense. After the HPG net went down different Clans began reactivating more lines in preparation for invasions.

[Hellraiser]

So, that passage says they were dormant as Bloodnames until the Refusal War . . . which is superseded by FMCC/WC which has asterisks next to Widowmaker heritages such as Ch'in?  Or Mehta?  I know FMWC talks about how the Warden Wolves have no Bloodnamed from one or two of those Houses and thus will not use the Bloodname for maternal donors though they have access to the genetics.

Ch'in & Mehta are actually Wolf Bloodnames not Widowmaker
And they were not all dormant either, we examples active at least in the Invasion for Vickers, Conners, Leroux, & Sender from memory in the WCSB, maybe more.


Yeah, the WiE have a Blood Heritage count of just those that joined them.
So if they got 22 Kerensky's in 3058, then 22 is the max they will ever have basically.
At least that is how I understood it, but its been a while since I read it.

[Colt Ward]

Which is why I said that WoK was off as proven by FMWC & FMCC.  Some of those were Widowmakers.

As far as that . . . yes and now, Katya got Natasha's Bloodheritage.

[Hellraiser]

As far as that . . . yes and now, Katya got Natasha's Bloodheritage. 

Which Katya is that?

The only 2 I know are Katya Kerensky, Wife of Alexander, Mother of Nicky & Andery

Katya Kerensky, the Star Captain of 3050, later Delta Galaxy Commander, Crusader Wolf Lore Master, & Paladin of the Republic who had a Blood Name before Natasha returned to the clans?   

Neither was Wolf in Exile.   

Natasha died in the Refusal war so I'd say both halves could have claimed ownership of it.

I'm not up on MWDA fiction really, is there another Katya that got Natasha's Blood Name?

[Colt Ward]

No, I was getting my Invasion Wolves confused- it would be Ranna . . . went blank.

Natasha is a special case, but IF that was the reason then the Warden Wolves could have claimed any of the Refusal War fallen- FREX, who got Ulric's Heritage?  I imagine it would have been glorious among the Wardens and reduced among the Crusaders, though Vlad still gave him props for running circles around the Crusaders & leading the Invasion waves.

[Hellraiser]

No, I was getting my Invasion Wolves confused- it would be Ranna . . . went blank.

Natasha is a special case, but IF that was the reason then the Warden Wolves could have claimed any of the Refusal War fallen- FREX, who got Ulric's Heritage?  I imagine it would have been glorious among the Wardens and reduced among the Crusaders, though Vlad still gave him props for running circles around the Crusaders & leading the Invasion waves.

1.  Doh,  and I was thinking you were talking about someone in the future.
Yep, Ranna got Natashas.   Which is fine since if she had lived would likely have ended up going w/ the other survivors to Phelan.

2.  Well, in our campaign world in the 90's, I fought for it, ignoring what really happened............  (See sig below)
Which is that Ulric had been charged w/ Genocide/Treason & then lost the refusal war. 
Which means the name was permanently disgraced to the point that it was likely treated like similar names from the past......... IE... Wolverines 40,  that Viper Khan that loved Nicky, and a few others.   
Sooo, likely burned to dust or some other horrible outcome.  Which is sad.

The "Jade Wolves" survived that fate by being reborn from another clan after being captured, etc etc, /waves hands magic.
But Ulric didn't have that blessing.  His only hope was to win & then NOT have every other clan come back w/ follow up challenges which is what he'd already declared was going to happen.  Splitting the Wardens off was the only way to preserve the clan.  He was dead from the minute Dalk Carns opened his mouth w/o thinking of the long term repercussions of that charge.

And that is why Dalk Carns character is top of my list of hated Wolves,  Not Conal, Not Vlad,  no,  dumb arse Dalk is top of the idiot pile.

[rebs]

The Wolves also did not use all of the Widowmaker Bloodnames either- FREX, the guy that shot Nicky?  Yeah, not used.

As for tassa's question, I want to say it was those two books themselves.  I have to find FMWC after some boxes got moved.

Indeed.  Cal Jorgenson's heritage was probably destroyed. 

And the last Khan, Kyle Vordermark, who set the trap to try and kill as many Wolf warriors in any way possible regardless of honor, his heritage was probably tossed into a random crevasse on some unnamed moon somewhere.

Founding Khan Karige had his legacy destroyed before the Widowmaker absorption - officially in a "laboratory accident", probably at the orders of Nicky K himself I would bet.

[Hellraiser]

Indeed.  Cal Jorgenson's heritage was probably destroyed. 

And the last Khan, Kyle Vordermark, who set the trap to try and kill as many Wolf warriors in any way possible regardless of honor, his heritage was probably tossed into a random crevasse on some unnamed moon somewhere.

Founding Khan Karige had his legacy destroyed before the Widowmaker absorption - officially in a "laboratory accident", probably at the orders of Nicky K himself I would bet. 

As I posted upthread, per WoK all but 2 survived & were used by the Wolves.  To include Jorgenson

Despite this, the Widowmaker Bloodnames survived the aftermath (save for the Vordermark and Karrige Bloodnames) and live on within Clan Wolf.

[Colt Ward]

Except as I said, FMWC and FMCC counter that about less than that USED as bloodnames.  Their legacies live on, but they are not active bloodnames.