BattleTech: Clan Invasion Kickstarter Discussion, Vol. 1

[Chrome]

You cannot legitimately start a paragraph claiming supreme knowledge and then, in the next sentence, follow it up with wild guesses. Thank you for playing.

You are right. I should have never said "I'm guessing" since that's the exact reason that CGL provided (emphasis mine):

There were SO many minor add-ons, stretch goals and added components it was virtually a massive time and cash sink to try and pick and pack  these products into the appropriate legendary boxes.  Since they arrived from China sealed.  This caused a LOT of confusion and time lost in the warehouses - so Catalyst made another money losing decision to clean up the air... which was to add the additional components to all the Legendary Boxes.

"I'm guessing" was said sarcastically because I don't believe the explanation Catalyst provided. I did a bad job of expressing that.

I don't believe that an established company could plan out a KickStarter with multiple pledge levels and Add-Ons and then get blind-sided by the packaging costs. Especially when they've gone so far as to hire an experienced 3rd party to help them plan for those things. Also, there weren't "SO many minor add-ons, stretch goals, and added components" when this box was packed in China. There were only 2 Add-Ons (the alt boards) and 2 components (the expansions) and they didn't even include one of the expansions in the box like they said they did. Stretch goals were the same for everyone, so it had zero impact - it was the same for every box.

I believe that they got an estimate for each packaging option and it was cheaper to have every box packed the same (thus giving away free copies of the boards and expansions) than it was to pay to have each box packed correctly.

[General308]

I do have to admit that even though I plan to back.  It is going to be tough to go all in.  Given they will not have fixed the Shadowrun kickstarter by the time this one starts.  Makes me ask questions

[Euphonium]

For those who aren't Sprawl Ops backers, here's a link to the latest update on that campaign: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/shadowrun-sprawl-ops-boardgame/posts/2554040
I'm still uneasy about how long it is taking to sort things out but I'm still hoping I'll be comfortable backing the BT Kickstarter before it ends.

[PyreLight]

Regarding the Sprawl Ops campaign: So apparently EU backers won't be getting their rewards anytime soon and will have to wait for CGL to do another print run. Which is estimated to take 4 more months. This puts  the delivery of the boardgame for EU backers a whole year behind the original October 2018 delivery promise.

I think CGL needs to rethink the way they handle shipping rewards with this Clan Invasion thing. Other Kickstarters don't do the "delivery had to go from China to US and then US to Europe" that you're doing with Sprawl Ops. Every Kickstarter that I've backed that was not already prepacked in china and delivered directly to the fulfillment hubs resulted in problems.

Planning a delivery that will have to go through customs at least twice doesn't sound very smart to me.

[KhanPhelanWard]

I was going to back this KS for sure, I was going to spend 200 or 300€, but after reading the problems with the Shadow Run KS and with the delays of the new boxes still on my mind, I am rethinking if I have to participate in it or better wait until the official release...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm just going to point out that delivery dates for Kickstarter are never guaranteed.

I don't know how preventable the issue with Shadowrun's Kickstarter were, but that level of delay isn't at all unusual.

[Sartris]

In fairness to our European brethren, the sprawl ops shipping debacle is not project delay business as usual if the shipping situation is as they describe. We’d all be furious

[Euphonium]

In fairness to our European brethren, the sprawl ops shipping debacle is not project delay business as usual if the shipping situation is as they describe. We’d all be furious

So far just about very KS I have ever backed has delivered 6-12 months late, but so far they all have delivered eventually.

Here's a link to the KS update that explains how the Sprawl Ops shipping mess happened:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/450703636/shadowrun-sprawl-ops-boardgame/posts/2532493

As one of those EU backers I'm not happy and as soon as the BT KS goes live I'm going to be asking if CGL will be using the same warehouse/shipping company as they did for Sprawl Ops and what they'll be doing to avoid a repeat. I'm still willing to give CGL a chance to sort this out but I can't deny that I'm *really* hesitant about backing another KS without some serious reassurances. I still want to be able to back the BT KS though.

[Lorcan Nagle]

As one of those EU backers I'm not happy and as soon as the BT KS goes live I'm going to be asking if CGL will be using the same warehouse/shipping company as they did for Sprawl Ops and what they'll be doing to avoid a repeat. I'm still willing to give CGL a chance to sort this out but I can't deny that I'm *really* hesitant about backing another KS without some serious reassurances. I still want to be able to back the BT KS though.

PSI, who messed up the shipments are CGL's regular distributor, they've been working together for years.

[PyreLight]

I'm just going to point out that delivery dates for Kickstarter are never guaranteed.

I don't know how preventable the issue with Shadowrun's Kickstarter were, but that level of delay isn't at all unusual.

This is totally true, there's no problem at all if a project is delayed. That I have no qualms with whatsoever, and the hard-working people should take their time without a doubt.

I was mostly referring to the fact that the shipping was botched and the communication was lacking and unclear, with CGL especially being bad with responding to e-mails (or at least confirming that they've received a request). I'm sad for the team and the fact that they had to do another print to make it up to EU backers like myself, it just sounds like such a mess with the way the rewards were shipped.

[Euphonium]

PSI, who messed up the shipments are CGL's regular distributor, they've been working together for years.

Considering my previous experience of ordering physical products from the old BattleShop  that does not fill me with confidence, although I think those were a different sort of problem.

I guess I just have to try & think positive and hope that as long term business partners both sides have a strong incentive to fix the last ******-up and come up with plans to prevent any future repeats

[Lorcan Nagle]

I'm in the same boat as you in terms of EU person who's waiting for their Sprawl Ops stuff (and other bits I paid for in the Backerkit), and it's frustrating.  But when I say that PSI are CGL's distributor, that's for everything.  The stuff they ship out to Asmodee and whoever else is supplying game shops these days?  PSI.  Presumably retail sales via the Battleshop go through PSI as well, but I can't say for sure. It could be that this is a one-time mess up, it could be that they're not great but this goes above and beyond.

[Wrangler]

Guys, i can understand the super heavy problems with the past CGL Kickstarter.  I'm posed to try to do this kickstart.  Its good to get a heads up on past problems for these sort things.
I've never heard of CGL doing this to hurt people or try it as money grab. I hate to see this kickstart start negatively before its even started.

Maybe complaints about CGL related Kickstarts should be in it's own thread verses killing this kickstart before it gets started.

[mbear]

Guys, i can understand the super heavy problems with the past CGL Kickstarter.  I'm posed to try to do this kickstart.  Its get heads up on past problems for these sort things.
I've never heard of CGL doing this to hurt people or try it as money grab. I hate to see this kickstart start negatively before its even started.

Maybe complaints about CGL related Kickstarts should be in it's own thread verses killing this kickstart before it gets started.

I'm not worried about the kickstarter, but based on some other things that have happened in the past I am really curious about who will have access to the money collected by the ks.

[Sartris]

As with all kickstarters, the project organizer has to get into one of those money booth wins tunnels and grab as much as they before time runs out. The remainder is the Kickstarter fee

[Chrome]

I think CGL needs to rethink the way they handle shipping rewards with this Clan Invasion thing. Other Kickstarters don't do the "delivery had to go from China to US and then US to Europe" that you're doing with Sprawl Ops. Every Kickstarter that I've backed that was not already prepacked in china and delivered directly to the fulfillment hubs resulted in problems.

Planning a delivery that will have to go through customs at least twice doesn't sound very smart to me.

I'll admit that living in the US that I never paid much attention to how they originally planned to handle rest-of-the-world delivery, but while looking thru the Updates for something on Monday I noticed that at one point they said that packages were going straight from China to the RoW distribution hubs.

From Update #51 with the original timeline:

November 16 - Games packaged and split shipped to boats (US / CA / EU). On the boat for 3-6 weeks (maybe more for EU).

So at this point they were planning on having 3 boats out of China? Was that always the way it was always intended and they made a change, or did Thomas make a mistake when he said that? Because every post after this update only mentions a single boat.

Regardless, I've never understood why all of those CA/EU/AU pledges have just been sitting in Atlanta all this time. They should have been split off and sent out months ago.

[Chrome]

Guys, i can understand the super heavy problems with the past CGL Kickstarter.  I'm posed to try to do this kickstart.  Its get heads up on past problems for these sort things.
I've never heard of CGL doing this to hurt people or try it as money grab. I hate to see this kickstart start negatively before its even started.

Maybe complaints about CGL related Kickstarts should be in it's own thread verses killing this kickstart before it gets started.

To be clear my intention isn't to try and kill the BT KS, just make sure that everyone goes into it with eyes wide open.

Edit - having said that, I suppose since my first post here is about the KS that it probably looks exactly like I'm trying to kill this KS! :-/ I posted here b/c I haven't been active w/BT for a long time and this seemed to be the most active BT forum now. I'm just trying to say that my intentions for posting here aren't anti-BT. If there's anyone around here who was active back when The Dropship or Steel Command BT sites were active they may remember me from there.

[SteelRaven]

This is why CGL has been very very conservative and tight lip when it comes to Kickstarter, it's a few in the forum that's been talking about KS like some magic bullet until now after PSI screwed up.

[Sartris]

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that a company recently ran a capital campaign that had major distribution issues and may potentially be using the same infrastructure to distribute again while still working on issues from the first go around. None of what people are talking about is wild speculation or fear mongering but very real concerns about things that have already happened in a tone that is concerned than hyperbolically angry.

I have yet to see anyone dismiss the sprawl ops situation as dishonestly portrayed so I don’t feel it’s something to sweep under the rug.

[Springer_Prime]

Ive been playing Battletech since it started when I was a teenager.  I remember everything Battletech and I even have some of the lead Battledroids minis.  I also used to Demo for IWM.  Ive got mixed feelings about this kick starter.

Out here in WA Catalyst Games has a retail arm called Wishes.  Where they refuse to carry IWM metal minis for Battletech.  While I agree the prototypes of the Kickstarter look great (although the Dire Wolf looks amazingly identical to the last Plastech version I have).  I really dont feel excited about this kick starter.  Battletech has always had 2 companies working side by side to provide us with amazing game play and miniature modeling.  One for the game, the other for the metal miniatures.  Apparently Catalyst games doesn't want to share for the sake of all the fans of the game.  Not to mention they wont let you play Battletech in their store unless you play strictly by Commando / Current rule set. 

So im sorry.  I own over 500 Btech minis... (still dont have them all painted) I guess that will have to suffice.  Those that join in the Kickstarter, Good luck and enjoy!

Springer Prime

[PyreLight]

Even though I backed Sprawl Ops and am one of the unlucky few who won't see the boardgame for at least a couple of months more, I will back the living hell out of this Battletech Kickstarter. The Sprawl Ops mess is no big deal in the long run and I'm sure that it can only work as a learning lesson if anything. I've also backed a whole lot of Kickstarters in my time (mostly videogame related) and all of them have been absolutely amazing.

I can only recommend Kickstarter and I hope no one has any reservations about Kickstarter as a concept. It works almost all the time and it helps make the product you love come alive thanks to some awesome dedication by the producers. In that sense, even though Sprawl Ops kind of burned me a little bit, I still whole-heartily recommend backing the Clan Invasion next week.

[DarkSpade]

... I really dont feel excited about this kick starter.  Battletech has always had 2 companies working side by side to provide us with amazing game play and miniature modeling.  One for the game, the other for the metal miniatures.  Apparently Catalyst games doesn't want to share for the sake of all the fans of the game. ...

It's the fans that want the plastic minis.  IWM has shown no interest (that I'm aware of) in producing plastic minis. Catalyst is hardly being the bad guy by giving us what many of us want.

[Maingunnery]

I think it is most about creating a core set of miniatures that can be kept in stores, which the game really needs.

[Talen5000]

It's the fans that want the plastic minis.  IWM has shown no interest (that I'm aware of) in producing plastic minis. Catalyst is hardly being the bad guy by giving us what many of us want.

I think he os suggesting Wishes should carry IWM metal minis and be freer with the rulesets they allow in store

[RoundTop]

Out here in WA Catalyst Games has a retail arm called Wishes.  Where they refuse to carry IWM metal minis for Battletech. 

Springer Prime

Not quite, but close. Wishes is owned by Loren Coleman, who is also an owner of InMediaRes/Catalyst. So often the two work together for conventions around Seattle, but they are not the same company. They share one head person (Randall is not a part of Wishes). At conventions where both are present, Wishes staff never work at the Catalyst area and the reverse is also true* (*Except for Loren Coleman and his sons, who are involved with both). (Though at cons such as PAX Catalyst will store excess Wishes stock if they have room for it that Wishes doesn't have at the convention).

[DarkSpade]

I think he os suggesting Wishes should carry IWM metal minis and be freer with the rulesets they allow in store

Okay, that I can understand.

[Sellsword]

It's the fans that want the plastic minis.  IWM has shown no interest (that I'm aware of) in producing plastic minis. Catalyst is hardly being the bad guy by giving us what many of us want.

I don't think there is a bad guy or good guy here but there are potential serious relationship problems that can occur between CGL & IWM over this kickstarter.  If the plastic mini are as successful as CGL hopes, there is no doubt that they will impact IWM bottom line on their own mini sales.  Additionally I find it amusing that CGL's best chance at growth and additional sales is from the mini market.  This is a board game.  Minis aren't important. ;)  How many years have those lines been touted?  And yet here we are looking for growth not from the books or rules but from the miniatures.

I just hope CGL understands the potential impact this can have on the one partner that has stuck by them throughout the years.  And I don't believe that allowing IWM to release the minis at a later date in metal is much compensation.  Initial sales of a product are almost always strongest at the beginning and then taper off.  IWM would be picking up the left overs.  Hopefully this has all been worked out behind the scenes.

Anyway just my thoughts on the kickstarter.

[glitterboy2098]

ok a question. i've seen this on FB more than a few times, and it warrants discussion and possibly answers from one of the Catalyst people if they aren't blocked by NDA's about it.

for people who are new to the game and pretty well served by the existing box sets as far as having mech on mech play scenarios, what does the Clan invasion set add other than just new mechs and weapons, that would encourage players to consider getting them. often cited is for example how the current box sets are a bit light on setting info and lore, and newer players asking whether the new sets will have more setting info and lore, not just on the clans but on the wars of the Innersphere and such.

personally i think it is a valid question. all the starter sets in the past have always been rather light on setting detail, not really getting much into the actual conflicts of the inner sphere beyond the abstract "which factions fight which factions" aspects.
the clan expansion sets have the potential to include info on things like the Ronin war, the War of 3039, and some of the other conflicts during the Clan invasion era (Capellan-St.ives war, the refusal war, etc) which would give the players more options for coming up with scenarios and campaigns.

also IMO it wouldn't hurt to include a version of the bare bones chaos campaign rules like those found in the recent succession wars chaos campaign PDF, so players can have the option for doing campaigns that are more than just a series of individual scenarios.

[Cubby]

Sneak Peek – BattleTech: Clan Invasion Boxed Set Contents

At the heart of the BattleTech: Clan Invasion Kickstarter is the Clan Invasion boxed set, an expansion to the bestselling BattleTech Beginner Box and A Game of Armored Combat boxed sets. Ready for a sneak peek?

One copy of the Clan Invasion box will be included for all backers at the $50 pledge level; additional copies can be purchased for $50 each as add-on items.

Here is what’s inside:

•   Five high-quality plastic miniatures – the reimagined Executioner, Timber Wolf, Nova, Grendel, and Adder OmniMechs;
•   Two dice, exactly like those in A Game of Armored Combat;
•   A 16-page Clan Primer, in the style of the BattleTech primer included with the recent box sets, but focused on the Clans;
•   A Clan Rulebook, expanding on the A Game of Armored Combat rulebook and introducing new rules for the Clans, their OmniMechs, and the high-powered weapons they wield;
•   A booklet of record sheets
•   A 24-page novella featuring an all-new story told from the Clan point-of-view;
•   Five pilot cards and five Alpha Strike cards, each double-sided;
•   A revised reference card, updated with the rules and stats for Clan units;
•   Two double-sided mapsheets featuring all-new battlefields;
•   One sheet of die-cut, punch out cardboard playing pieces representing each of the five OmniMechs in the box, along with terrain from the mapsheets.

The BattleTech: Clan Invasion Kickstarter goes live next Wednesday, July 17 at 1 p.m. Eastern / 10 a.m. Pacific!

[Cubby]

ok a question. i've seen this on FB more than a few times, and it warrants discussion and possibly answers from one of the Catalyst people if they aren't blocked by NDA's about it.

for people who are new to the game and pretty well served by the existing box sets as far as having mech on mech play scenarios, what does the Clan invasion set add other than just new mechs and weapons, that would encourage players to consider getting them.

I swear on my children's lives that I had that box set contents sneak peek post planned and scheduled for a WEEK to go live around 9:30 p.m. tonight.

But wow, you timed your request PERFECTLY...

To try to answer your question(s) more specifically - the scope of this initial box had to be pretty tight, and the focus was 100 pct on the beautiful redesigned minis. Stuffing the box with a lot of paper might have pleased some customers, but there's a cost to everything, and you have to make choices.

Along the same lines, covering everything from 3030 to 3061 in one box is, I think, too much ground to cover thematically. This box is about the Clan Invasion, and the contents and minis tie into that one, specific event. Also, you want to leave yourself room for possible products. Are we ever going to see a Ronin War boxed set? I wouldn't hold my breath. But it's important to not to allow mission drift, and try to make one massive thing that tries to be all things to all people.