Author Topic: Aviation Pictures: How expensive can a fifth generation thread be?  (Read 144256 times)

CrossfirePilot

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Well there is a lot of things I would rather be flying, but as the song goes: "if you want to sing the blues you have to pay your dues"

DaveMac

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Go to red alert!
Are you sure sir?  It does mean changing the lightbulb.

Daryk

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Seems the story was updated... that is not a good ending at all.  :-\

DaveMac

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Go to red alert!
Are you sure sir?  It does mean changing the lightbulb.

DOC_Agren

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REST IN PEACE
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CrossfirePilot

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Some more theory on the Arrow...

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200615-the-record-breaking-jet-which-still-haunts-a-country?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Pretty good article from my first read through.  Seems to have a better balance than many others that I have read on the subject.


Fat Guy

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Fat Guy

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Boeing recently delivered the 2,500th AH-64 Apache.

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Daryk

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Hellfires are so expensive it's only carrying half its capacity for the promo shot?  ???

worktroll

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2,500 Balacs ...
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Fat Guy

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The WizKids Balac was actually based on the Mangusta.



I think we can all guess what they based the Lamprey on.   ;)

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I am Belch II

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That Lamprey almost is a copy of the Hind.
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glitterboy2098

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that figure for the F-16 (it being 15% of the operational aircraft in the world) makes me wonder what percentage the MiG-21 (and derivatives like the Chengdu J-7) held in their heyday, given that the F-16 only had ~4600 built, while the MiG-21/J-7 had nearly 14,000 built

chanman

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that figure for the F-16 (it being 15% of the operational aircraft in the world) makes me wonder what percentage the MiG-21 (and derivatives like the Chengdu J-7) held in their heyday, given that the F-16 only had ~4600 built, while the MiG-21/J-7 had nearly 14,000 built

Quite possibly less. Aircraft were cheaper and more specialized, while air forces were larger in the heyday of the MiG-21. Modern air forces are based off one or two core multi-role aircraft now. Until you get to some of the late model J-7s with the new wing, Fishbeds lacked range, payload capacity, and just plain old number of hardpoints to do much more than hurl a couple of IR missiles at an attacker (not all Fishbeds carried cannon either). They had about the light attack capability of an advanced trainer - using the gunsight to aim unguided rockets.

Fat Guy

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Some shots of a MiG 21 (re designated YF-110) under USAF evaluation at Groom Lake.



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Cannonshop

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Quite possibly less. Aircraft were cheaper and more specialized, while air forces were larger in the heyday of the MiG-21. Modern air forces are based off one or two core multi-role aircraft now. Until you get to some of the late model J-7s with the new wing, Fishbeds lacked range, payload capacity, and just plain old number of hardpoints to do much more than hurl a couple of IR missiles at an attacker (not all Fishbeds carried cannon either). They had about the light attack capability of an advanced trainer - using the gunsight to aim unguided rockets.

the phrase "multi-Role' is more of a buzzword than an actual 'thing'.  even in the sixties and seventies (the heyday of the MiG-21), interceptors were doing ground attack, ground attackers were doing air superiority, and so on.

Most of the combat flying hours logged by the F-5 were in ground support missions, and that's a plane with a similar warload, slightly smaller size, and so on as the MiG-21, both of which were initially intended to be short duration interceptors.

as was the original RFP for the F-16, and the F-15 was intended to be air-superiority and bomber interception, but with the E version, became a bomber.  The F-111 was intended to be all 'multirole' and took until the G model before it functioned in ANY role...at all.
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Dragon Cat

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One of the UKs refuelling Voyager craft also acts as a VIP transport.  It recently got a new paint job
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

Euphonium

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One of the UKs refuelling Voyager craft also acts as a VIP transport.  It recently got a new paint job

Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?
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Daryk

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I'm sure materials were much less than half... painting a plane isn't like painting a car or a house.  It has to be done RIGHT.

Euphonium

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I was assuming that like almost any paint job the bulk of the cost is labour, but it still seems insanely high.
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truetanker

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A visualy radar reflective coating?

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Dragon Cat

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Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?

According to reports it was also electronics overhaul and general maintenance for the year as well
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

Daryk

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That should account for it... doing some research, the paint job alone should have been about a fifth of that.

Euphonium

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According to reports it was also electronics overhaul and general maintenance for the year as well

Now that makes so much more sense!
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

Ruger

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Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?

Ever watched Independence Day?

 ;D

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Fat Guy

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Ever watched Independence Day?

I've been trying to forget it.

Thanks for bring up bad memories!   :P
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grimlock1

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Can anybody tell me why re-painting that jet cost ~£900,000 or does that go into Rule 4 territory?
I suspect part of it has to do with the nature of large bureaucratic organizations. I work at an Ivy League University. Say I want to buy a $5 pack of O-rings.  I make about $30/hr, but because of benefits and overhead costs, I cost the department about $60/hr.  So if I spend half an hour calculating the proper size O-ring for this dingus I'm designing, then find out that McMaster doesn't sell that size, so I go back and redesign the dingus to match what they do sell, that's $30.  I send the purchase request up the chain and the purchasing agent is required to by policy to check a couple different vendors, place the order, then file out some paperwork.  Maybe an hour's worth of work.  Lets say makes $25/hr, so with benefits and such, she costs $50/hr.   Then someone over at financial affairs costing another $50/hr spends 30 minutes looking over the paperwork.  See how this adds up?

So we are already up to what? $85 to buy a $5 pack of O-rings, and the story isn't finished yet, but to be honest, my understanding of the process gets fuzzy after this point. Oh, and I forgot shipping costs!
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qc mech3

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One of my previous job was QC for shop doing plating and painting for small and medium aviation parts. Just the specs for the paint, application and inspection were fun read  :crash: and the yearly approval was a hoot too.  :lol:

In the end, the difference between an aeronautic and hotpot bolt is the paperwork that come with it.  C:-)

glitterboy2098

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not to mention that aircraft probably need specialized paint formulas, similar to how car paint and house paint are chemically different.

Elmoth

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Repainting planes has always been very expensive. Repainting a B737 o A320 costs around 50K USD. Repainting a widebody like a B777 or A330 can cost you between 100 and 250k depending on number of colors and fanciness of design. Remember that some Japanese planes sport a Picachu publicity. That is some expensive publicity. Paint weighs and needs to be taken into account in operational costs, so it is important to do it right. That is one of the many reasons that airlines do not change their livery too frequently even if it sucks. And that sometimes 2 liveries coexist for a long time when they do change it. If you have 100 planes and repainting them costs you 75000 each on average it is not lunch money expenditure we are talking here.

The high price tag of this refit looks more to do with the electronics refit than the paint anyway.
« Last Edit: 09 July 2020, 01:04:33 by Elmoth »