Author Topic: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?  (Read 12136 times)

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #30 on: 18 June 2019, 13:21:14 »
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #31 on: 18 June 2019, 13:25:44 »
TRO 3060?  Huh?  It was better than 3058 line art & perspective (staring up from the feet of the Black Lanner, Cauldron Born squatting), and I say that as '58 being my first TRO, loved the Bushwhacker in MW3, yet I still look forward to getting a Gauntlet.  A lot of 3060 was from the FM series.

Only so many mechs will qualify for new art- and I would never expect to see new art for vehicles outside of covers (like the The Anvil that had a JES II? or was it III?) or plastics just b/c they are not the core.  Even IWM has backed off vehicles IIRC.

My expectation is they are going to redo the art on the most iconic and widest reaching designs- the Classics qualify b/c they filled the Succession War militaries and even have the C models for the Clans.  Most of the original 16 Clan mechs qualify b/c of their identification with the franchise (poor Bears, Fire Moth & Viper do not meet that threshold) then you throw in the video game and MWDA favorites- Cougar, Shadow Cat, Nova Cat, and Cauldron Born.

sadlerbw-  What about the Jenner IIC?  I used that as a stand in until the plastics came out.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #32 on: 18 June 2019, 15:46:11 »
Mein Gott!  Go to work for a number of hours (with no access here), and look what happens!  ::)

(also, I note the default spell checker here doesn't object to the German... subtle reminder of FanPro days?)

Regarding nostalgia and new art: I would like to point out the 2019 Mustang looks a lot more like the 196X version than anything from the 1980s.  There are ways to update art and retain the "classic lines" of the old, and I think the latest versions are doing that (not so much earlier attempts... looking at you Project Phoenix... so much 1980s Mustang you are!).

Sadlerbw: you might want to check one of IWM's recent fan funding projects... 25mm PEOPLE!

Personally, I LOVE Loose's art.  You can call it impressionist, or something else (palimpsest springs to mind), but I think it evokes the right "feel" of the lost "Mad Max" era (which, yes, only existed for a relatively small portion of the extant timeline, and even then only because ComStar was actively suppressing technology development).

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #33 on: 18 June 2019, 15:58:44 »
The problem with TR 3060 wasn't how the art was executed per se. It was that many of the mechs looked stupid.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #34 on: 18 June 2019, 16:14:55 »
Not a fan of the whole Black Watch, Bishamon's spider-iness, or the Beowulf's legs . . . but I think their combined art is better than the a lot of '58.  But its all in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #35 on: 18 June 2019, 16:30:29 »
Regarding nostalgia and new art: I would like to point out the 2019 Mustang looks a lot more like the 196X version than anything from the 1980s.  There are ways to update art and retain the "classic lines" of the old, and I think the latest versions are doing that (not so much earlier attempts... looking at you Project Phoenix... so much 1980s Mustang you are!).

the lesson: if you're going to succumb to nostalgia, make sure you're nostalgic for the not ugly version.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #36 on: 18 June 2019, 16:32:23 »
Not a fan of the whole Black Watch, Bishamon's spider-iness, or the Beowulf's legs . . . but I think their combined art is better than the a lot of '58.  But its all in the eye of the beholder.

The Beowulf was one of the few ‘Mechs in there for which I liked the art (and love the mini).

While I have minis of the other two, they are not really favs, by stats or looks.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #37 on: 18 June 2019, 17:12:25 »
the lesson: if you're going to succumb to nostalgia, make sure you're nostalgic for the not ugly version.
Amen to that!  :thumbsup:

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #38 on: 18 June 2019, 18:17:43 »
O-kay.

I honestly didn't expect this to get this far.

Full disclosure; I meant this thread as satire. I fully expected one of the BattleMasters to come in here and smack me down and tell me how silly I was for even suggesting something like a 3145/3150: Revised.

Here's the thing; I've been poo-pooing the naysayers for a few years now that the products have become too much about selling a visual and that fluff and plot in particular have suffered as a result. The products have been getting increasingly expensive; basically for chrome. I've had to come over to the opinion that the PDFs are the best value for money, with their often-reused art, simply because the dead-tree-enabled main products, with their fancy borders and backgrounds and stylish art are so much busier than I need in something I am actually trying to read.

My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with the old art. I think things like the recasts of the Clan Omnis and the Centurion basically prove that; making the old image look better is the way to go. A ton of mechs, specifically would look better with just a smaller freaking cockpit and a move-away from that big-head toy soldiers mileau some of the minis seem stuck with.

That's all subjective; here is the objective: whether we have a standard, such as; "Art of a certain vintage will be effectively discarded and re-done as time passes." Or a principle, like; "Everytime a new computer game comes out; we will copy that aesthetic." or simply; "Old art; bad. New Art; good." we don't have any way off this train. TPTB have ensured that this IP is now an art-generating oroborus, forever eating itself.

You're doing that thing GW does where you are looking for a way for old players to want to replace their old miniatures. GW normally comes out with new rules that upset old paradigms of the way the game was played and force players to buy new and different armies and units to stay competitive. Recently, GW opted to do an art-reboot alongside the rules and fluff and re-imagine what a space marine is and looks like. The new Primaris Marines are true-scale proportioned; aping the most popular custom parts and kitbashes online and benefit from the latest in techniques and technology to produce the miniatures. They look different enough that older models simply don't fit on the table with them anymore.

I just dropped about a grand in accumulated store credit on minis. You're probably doing as well as you can be. This isn't necessary.

Someone once told me that a picture was supposed to be worth a thousand words, but when turning out these products; I should probably figure they are worth more like 10-100 thousand words in terms of expenses. That seemed far-fetched at first. But I can look at any recent product I have and do that math roughly in my head. If that much resources is going to art and so much less to the actual text that is the lifeblood of the universe; now in context I understand why products take so very, very long to come out, why they cost what they do to produce and why; despite how much I love it: we are showing a marked preference for new products rehashing old material or filling in the blanks vs advancing the plot.

Maybe I'm late to the party, but I used to think that it was awesome to be doing a "Year of the Star League" and Succession Wars products, because those things interested me, personally and the Dark Age was stupid; so why do I want to go there? Now it's making more sense. If the resources and creative consciousness is going to the visuals; it isn't going to story. And it's easier to write within an already-established framework than do something new.

More clearly; how are we supposed to get any progress when we're consumed with endless re-released and updates of old material with new art? We've done some of this before with compiling TRO entries from plot-products into the new Technical Readout Books, but TRO; Succession Wars really seemed like a stretch when we already have perfectly good TRO: 3039 and 3025r, 3026r and 2750 weren't terrible, either.

The best product I have ever seen for BT is TRO: 3026. Besides the cool-factor of the attention to detail of the infantry weapons; the art was what it needed to be; plain pages with simple boarders and full-page splashes of the units profiled. That art was on-point and original; the Demolisher, in all it's turtle-backed implacable glory and the Behemoth making me wonder how I pissed off that suspiciously-well-armed elementary school. Never since has art so perfectly followed stats and fluff.  But the Fluff was what had me re-reading my copy until it literally disintegrated. It was gritty, realistic military-SF, with an emphasis on MILITARY.

At the end of the day, is endless cycles of art-revision really what we want this hobby to be about? Games like BT have not survived because they followed trends (and they tended to lose their way when they tried to), they have survived by being original, sticking to their strengths and staying the course.

If you're really about the new shiny. Okay. Fine. I'm happy for you. But what if the next computer game is another Mech Assault as has been rumoured? And it has a new style, different from MWO/BTPC and you don't like it; or maybe it's even objectively bad?

Another point I will make is that I see a trend for a lot of this new art to be revisonist in the features of the mech it portrays; in particular adding a torso-twist. Or hands. Just my opinion again; not a fan of that. I prefer the flavour of individual designs having those kinds of quirks.

Finally; I'll make a point I've made again and again: If we want to attract new players, we need to emphasize the unique. I used to crow about changing the marketing; but we have done that. I have both the new boxed sets and they are excellant. If was doing intros to wargaming; I would use these. What we still do not have (and this is not a criticism of recent efforts: this should have been done years ago) is official automatic of the construction rules from top to bottom. The BattleMech Manual was ann excellant offering; but what it needed was a companion program or set of programs offering the construction rules. No other game even has those rules, not like we do. But we bury them in the core rule books and take something awesome and leave it as *exclusively* a labour-intensive effort, when what we need is an *offical* companion product so we can market that aspect of the game better.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #39 on: 18 June 2019, 18:50:35 »

A lot of the old art looks amateurish, with very little detail, and a lot of nonsensical lines.
The introduction of new art is an opportunity to critically evaluate a design to refine it.
This means finding & emphasizing the core essence while adding more logical details.
Even the background can be used for world-building or putting the extra focus on something.

However I do admit that this doesn't always happen when new art has been created.   
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #40 on: 18 June 2019, 20:03:56 »
Beachhead, pretty sure all those TROs you mentioned are safely out of print.

New Classic art and updating the Clan mechs in new box releases with supporting maps & period TROs is about building the foundation for new players.  Right now, someone can pick up the Beginner, then GoAC, a map pack and House Arano are all linked for the player- they need nothing else and they are all available.  TRO Succession Wars covers that period, which matches up with the organization by eras, and the coming TRO Clan Invasion will introduce that era.

House Arano had a lot of good tasty bits in it where nothing was re-used (per se) and a excellent set of explanations- why we had never heard of the polity before, what might happen to Kamea Arano, how was the Coalition putting itself back together, and how did they interact with the neighboring nations.  They are trying to get the fiction pipeline flowing again to give us stories and progress the narrative (Anvil/Splinter).

More importantly, IMO, is we have a controlling team that is no longer focused on surviving FASA's collapse and doing what they can with the IP controlled by WizKids.  The current team is about setting a solid foundation (Beginner, GoAC, TRO Succession Wars) that can be sustained and provide the entry with a few pointers for where folks interest might lie.  Since the changeover the discussion coming out of TPTB is not how can we keep providing for our current clients, but how can we dynamically grow the fanbase.  I think they have come up with some solid options trying to create some synergy with other IP products.

To your comments about art, trim, and 'fancy borders' . . . I watch SharkTank, and there are a pretty high number of products that come in that the 5 Sharks ask about changing packaging or even names.  Like it or not, if you are going to attract new players you have to catch their eye to make them ask "What's this?"  Visual appeal is the hook.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #41 on: 18 June 2019, 20:07:31 »
+1 for the original TRO 3026 being the "best ever"!  :thumbsup:

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #42 on: 18 June 2019, 22:01:15 »
Shitty miniatures looked shitty even in the 1980s, but it was hard to tell because there wasn't anything better to compare it to.  We have better now.  In order to compete with other games that have miniatures for a new audience, there has to be, y'know, competition.

Duane Loose's art was fine in 1984-85, but compared to what a player can find on shelves now they look like napkin drawings and half-finished concept art.  When I was a new player in 2007, something like TR3025 would have ensured that I never bothered picking the book up to look at.  There was better on the same shelf.  Fortunately, instead there was a copy of the box set with the Catapult firing missiles off-screen.

Unfortunately, it is no longer 2007 either, and said Catapult firing missiles off-screen would lose pretty hard to literally any Warhammer 40K codex, X-wing, any D&D product in the last 5 years, and most Magic: the Gathering posters.  To remain competitive requires actually remaining competitive and not trying to cut costs coasting on art that was "fine" 10, 20, 35 years ago but falls woefully short now.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #43 on: 18 June 2019, 23:47:01 »
there was actually a pretty good series of reimagined art for the 4th edition box standups. pity that direction wasn't taken 25 years ago.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #44 on: 19 June 2019, 04:51:07 »
Another thing in support of the new art style is that it is both consistent, which is rather important considering that most designs are, well, designed in a rather narrow period, and even if they aren't they are produced in said period, but that it's blocky, industrial used-future look actually meshes well with the universe. There are times when not using that aesthetic could actually add to the universe, but for that to work the aesthetic must be established in the first place.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #45 on: 19 June 2019, 05:44:03 »
it's not. those were real tanks and are portrayed as such in a historical simulation. it's more like saying the 80s mustang is fine for 2019. it's not.

the unseen yeah, which generate huge amounts of nostalgia (that i've been on the record saying is as harmful as it is helpful). no one is buying old quickdraw or that hunched over turd of an enforcer mini for the same purpose.

you can have different updated aesthetics. people just want stuff that looks good. most people won't even make it to later eras. if the intro offerings aren't drawing the eye of new customers, they won't even pick up the game.

if you haven't noticed, that's not really their goal right now. they seem more interested in creating a stable (and attractive) base for new players to enter the game.

I don't think many people think the 80s Mustangs are that great but the 60s Mustangs are still very cool. But if you're using cars in a mid 80s game the 2019 Mustang isn't available. You've got 80s Mustangs and earlier. Why force players to use a Mustang that doesn't exist in the game? And if you retcon the 80s Mustang how to the 2019 aesthetic what will you use for the 2019 Mustang? Furthermore what happens in 10 years when there's a new aesthetic? Retcon the 80s Mustang again and retcon the 19 Mustang too? How many different 80s Mustangs do we need?  How many ENF-4R Enforcers? How many QKD-4G Quickdraws?

The problem isn't aesthetics. The problem is there's only one official intro point into Battletech. It would help to have a stable base if there  were intro level units in every era. If the currant era is 3150 give players intro units for 3150 and let the Succession Wars be the past. It would also help if there were playing pieces for the current era. Sure one can make their own record sheets but having to proxy units on the board until minis are made?

As for older eras, definitely add new books historical books occasionally so new players can play in the past. It would also help if some books like TROs remained in print. I don't think they should go out of print. Rather they should be added too by year like they used to be. TRO:Succession Wars, while nice, is misleading as it includes mechs that were didn't exist for most of the era. 



Authenticity has a value. World War I will always be World War I.  That's true.
But if you're selling something as a sci-fi future, selling it via 1980s art styles is a difficult proposition.  Authenticity, as far as can be applied to a fictional setting, is not necessarily applied as keeping the future as defined by the past.  BattleTech is selling a work of fiction.
Even with selling to a "grognard" fan base, the new remodeling has been very succesful even with them to a large extent. That's make it even harder to suggest not upgrading makes sense.  The market you would be reaching with keeping everyting exactly the same is dwarfed by the old fans that like the new vision and new fans that like the new vision.
The major obstacle to new models is cost and therefore prioritizing which models get redone.
Note that does include keeping enough of the old that they are still familiar and keep what many fans hold as the defining points of each model.  it's not throwing away the old completely.

You can improve art without redesigning the unit. You can also make it look worse. Take the Firefly for example. Looks good in Wolf's Dragoons, not so good in TRO3050, and good again in TRO3050U. Make the art look good but not redo the designs completely.


O-kay.

I honestly didn't expect this to get this far.

(snip)

I'd have to agree. Chasing the new and shiny is a bad thing. So is changing the designs so they don't fit anymore. Like the Locust. The Locust is suppose to be one of the smallest mechs but the retcon changes it so much that fluff and most of the quirks don't fit. It looks too big for Compact Design and Narrow/Low Design. And even with the Compact Cockpit Quirk, the cockpit size makes the retconned Locust huge compared to the Timber Wolf.  And the legs do not look weak at all. Not compared to earlier art. And they still haven't done anything for the chin turret.



there was actually a pretty good series of reimagined art for the 4th edition box standups. pity that direction wasn't taken 25 years ago.

I agree.

Another thing in support of the new art style is that it is both consistent, which is rather important considering that most designs are, well, designed in a rather narrow period, and even if they aren't they are produced in said period, but that it's blocky, industrial used-future look actually meshes well with the universe. There are times when not using that aesthetic could actually add to the universe, but for that to work the aesthetic must be established in the first place.

The problem with keeping style/aesthetics consistent is that those things don't stay consistent. Things change. Look at the Mustang and how many changes its gone through. Even industrial equipment doesn't keep the blocky look. Many industrial vehicles are quite curvy.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #46 on: 19 June 2019, 05:50:00 »
You can improve art without redesigning the unit. You can also make it look worse. Take the Firefly for example. Looks good in Wolf's Dragoons, not so good in TRO3050, and good again in TRO3050U. Make the art look good but not redo the designs completely.

That's exactly what they are doing.  IE. They are recognizable, they just look better. The Awesome is still an Awesome, it's a better looking Awesome. 
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #47 on: 19 June 2019, 06:27:05 »
I'm of the opinion that a lot of the art in the TRO's is too dated to be attractive or interesting and could well do with a redesign (and plastic "miniature" surgery), especially so if wanting to ignite people's imagination and attract newer and younger players...high quality and modernised artwork is not the only thing that will create an attraction to the game, but it is definitely one of the ingredients in the recipe and is often the first exposure people have to a game. A lot of the newer artwork I've seen is absolutely gorgeous, it'd be nice to have that rolled over into the TRO's...but yeah, money, resources and time are always an enemy to things like this!


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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #48 on: 19 June 2019, 08:07:52 »
*snip* we don't need new art because reasons

we're getting new art. people like it. this has officially moved to dead horse territory. the only reason something doesn't get redesigned is because it's not relevant enough.

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I'd have to agree. Chasing the new and shiny is a bad thing.



y'all are allergic to CGL making money. there's a reason they shut down the line for a year. the business plan they were using was failing. or was i the only one noticing how small the print runs were getting? the current secondary market prices do not indicate anything cgl printed is widely available. 

the new normal is a stable box that can be reprinted quickly to meet demand and a line of products that chain directly off that box. we have to stop living under the delusion that cgl can water all the pots to keep the garden growing on all fronts. something has to get cut back and downsizing to a sensible core with a fresh look was the first sensible step.
« Last Edit: 19 June 2019, 08:10:47 by Sartris »

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #49 on: 19 June 2019, 08:22:34 »
**Mod Notice**

I need everyone to take a step back and calm down.

We all have opinions about the new and old art, those opinions are not valid reasons to take shots at one another.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #50 on: 19 June 2019, 10:09:40 »
As for older eras, definitely add new books historical books occasionally so new players can play in the past. It would also help if some books like TROs remained in print. I don't think they should go out of print. Rather they should be added too by year like they used to be. TRO:Succession Wars, while nice, is misleading as it includes mechs that were didn't exist for most of the era. 

Huh?  TROs should stay in print, but not the omnibus volume that keeps designs by era?  TRO Succession Wars, TRO Clan Invasion, TRO Civil War, TRO Jihad and TRO Dark Ages is going to be vastly superior for the new player than TRO2750/3025/3026/3039/3050/3055/3057/3058/3060/3067/3075/3085/3145/3150/VA.  Its easier to keep 5 TROs in print than 14 and by doing it the way they are it allows the backfill mechs (SL designs, early Clan) in 55/58/60/67 to actually be associated for new players in the right era.  So the Hatchetman was a new design developed late in the Succession Wars- it does not come from any SL era design and for most of the Succession Wars it never existed . . . no matter, it existed during the Succession Wars- that is the TRO its in and makes it easy to figure out.  Other end of the spectrum, the TC's Talos mech was produced going into the Reunification War but was wide spread ("production in the thousands") to even poorer regions in the IS so that it saw service into the early Succession Wars.  Its also in TRO Succession Wars because it existed during that era.

New player wants to know generally what mechs they can find to use during the Succession Wars?  TRO Succession Wars makes a lot more sense then telling someone- "TRO 3025 was the original, but its out of print so you have to see if you can find TRO 3039 which combines TRO 3025 & 3026 but not TRO 2750 that has Star League machines.  You also have a few entries in TRO 3055 and 3058 that have mechs that fought in the Succession Wars.  You also have a few in Historical Reunification wars and some of the TRO Primitives series . . . "

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #51 on: 19 June 2019, 10:17:46 »
TRO age of war to 3030 didn’t have the same ring to it

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #52 on: 19 June 2019, 10:29:18 »
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #53 on: 19 June 2019, 17:38:58 »
The problem with keeping style/aesthetics consistent is that those things don't stay consistent. Things change. Look at the Mustang and how many changes its gone through. Even industrial equipment doesn't keep the blocky look. Many industrial vehicles are quite curvy.
BT hasn't had an aesthetic before now.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #54 on: 20 June 2019, 01:00:41 »
BT hasn't had an aesthetic before now.

I thought the point was it had multiple aesthetics.....not like every company is going to produce things with the same lines. and it's not like avoiding radar is a concern for 2-4 story 'mech.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #55 on: 20 June 2019, 09:50:02 »
That's exactly what they are doing.  IE. They are recognizable, they just look better. The Awesome is still an Awesome, it's a better looking Awesome.

Better art or redesigned?  And I wouldn't say everything was recognizable. Some are some I wouldn't know what they were if they didn't have a name on the page.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the art in the TRO's is too dated to be attractive or interesting and could well do with a redesign (and plastic "miniature" surgery), especially so if wanting to ignite people's imagination and attract newer and younger players...high quality and modernised artwork is not the only thing that will create an attraction to the game, but it is definitely one of the ingredients in the recipe and is often the first exposure people have to a game. A lot of the newer artwork I've seen is absolutely gorgeous, it'd be nice to have that rolled over into the TRO's...but yeah, money, resources and time are always an enemy to things like this!

And yet WWII vehicles aren't being redesigned for new war games.

we're getting new art. people like it. this has officially moved to dead horse territory. the only reason something doesn't get redesigned is because it's not relevant enough.




y'all are allergic to CGL making money. there's a reason they shut down the line for a year. the business plan they were using was failing. or was i the only one noticing how small the print runs were getting? the current secondary market prices do not indicate anything cgl printed is widely available. 

the new normal is a stable box that can be reprinted quickly to meet demand and a line of products that chain directly off that box. we have to stop living under the delusion that cgl can water all the pots to keep the garden growing on all fronts. something has to get cut back and downsizing to a sensible core with a fresh look was the first sensible step.

I didn't say new art was bad. I said retconning everything was. It'd be the unseen but on a massive scale. Plus like I've said, it also gives problems for eras being different.

I also never said I was against CGI making money. There should be box sets. There should be ready to go playing pieces of some kind to get players into the new era as soon as possible. There hasn't been anything like that since Reinforcements 2.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #56 on: 20 June 2019, 09:58:11 »
And yet WWII vehicles aren't being redesigned for new war games.

Can we leave this obviously false equivalence at the door?  It's already been handled in this thread.

Authenticity has a value. World War I will always be World War I.  That's true.
But if you're selling something as a sci-fi future, selling it via 1980s art styles is a difficult proposition.  Authenticity, as far as can be applied to a fictional setting, is not necessarily applied as keeping the future as defined by the past.  BattleTech is selling a work of fiction.
Even with selling to a "grognard" fan base, the new remodeling has been very succesful even with them to a large extent. That's make it even harder to suggest not upgrading makes sense.  The market you would be reaching with keeping everyting exactly the same is dwarfed by the old fans that like the new vision and new fans that like the new vision.
The major obstacle to new models is cost and therefore prioritizing which models get redone.
Note that does include keeping enough of the old that they are still familiar and keep what many fans hold as the defining points of each model.  it's not throwing away the old completely.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #57 on: 20 June 2019, 10:27:58 »
And yet WWII vehicles aren't being redesigned for new war games.

Their art is. Compare the submarines of Silent Service to those of Silent Hunter 5 and tell me they look the same.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #58 on: 20 June 2019, 10:49:34 »
Huh?  TROs should stay in print, but not the omnibus volume that keeps designs by era?  TRO Succession Wars, TRO Clan Invasion, TRO Civil War, TRO Jihad and TRO Dark Ages is going to be vastly superior for the new player than TRO2750/3025/3026/3039/3050/3055/3057/3058/3060/3067/3075/3085/3145/3150/VA.  Its easier to keep 5 TROs in print than 14 and by doing it the way they are it allows the backfill mechs (SL designs, early Clan) in 55/58/60/67 to actually be associated for new players in the right era.  So the Hatchetman was a new design developed late in the Succession Wars- it does not come from any SL era design and for most of the Succession Wars it never existed . . . no matter, it existed during the Succession Wars- that is the TRO its in and makes it easy to figure out.  Other end of the spectrum, the TC's Talos mech was produced going into the Reunification War but was wide spread ("production in the thousands") to even poorer regions in the IS so that it saw service into the early Succession Wars.  Its also in TRO Succession Wars because it existed during that era.

New player wants to know generally what mechs they can find to use during the Succession Wars?  TRO Succession Wars makes a lot more sense then telling someone- "TRO 3025 was the original, but its out of print so you have to see if you can find TRO 3039 which combines TRO 3025 & 3026 but not TRO 2750 that has Star League machines.  You also have a few entries in TRO 3055 and 3058 that have mechs that fought in the Succession Wars.  You also have a few in Historical Reunification wars and some of the TRO Primitives series . . . "

"Cool, you want to play Succession Wars to be GoT in space?  Well if you get TRO Succession Wars its going to cover most the mechs available during that period though check the details since some died off or were part of the later tech recovery."


The problem going by big general eras is that they're so big. TRO Succession Wars has units that were extinct for half the Succession Wars. It also includes units that weren't introduced until the Succession Wars were nearly over.

The Hatchetman was introduced in 3023 so it's available in 3025. It isn't available in for most of the Succession Wars. And yes, the fluff in TRO:Succession Wars says when the Hatchetman was introduced but it being in book called "Succession Wars" gives the impression that it is available thorough the Succession Wars.  The Talos was used up until the early Succession Wars so it also wouldn't be available for just about all of the Succession Wars.

Going by year though you know that the units are available. Players would still know what era it is. A reprint of TRO:3025 could easily have "Succession Wars" printed on the cover. Better yet it could have Fourth Succession War era put on it so new players have an even better idea of when to use it.

Going by year also makes it easier to back fill in all unit types. Star League era mechs can be put in TROs dated during the Star League. Reunification era units can be put in TROs dated for the Reunification War. For example the Mk1 LAMs could be in TRO date that fits their fluff, like 2705 or something.

As for a large number of TROs in print, a 3O+ year old game with thousands of units is going to have a lot of TROs. They should be available to players. Yes there's PDF but ebay and used book stores shouldn't be the only way to get print editions.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #59 on: 20 June 2019, 11:23:27 »
I have no idea why this community is so cagey when it comes to aesthetics, I stopped posting fan art here because some one always needs to point out what I'm doing wrong   

And yet WWII vehicles aren't being redesigned for new war games.

Your comparing games based off historical events to a game that's science fantasy.

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