Author Topic: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?  (Read 32954 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #60 on: 18 June 2019, 21:37:33 »
Per the original poster, the thread is about what do you do when you have a shadow hawk and need to kill a wolverine or griffin.

"Shadow hawk sucks so I want something else" is hardly productive.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #61 on: 18 June 2019, 21:49:14 »
 Some of the last few posts have pointed out that the Shadow Hawk shines the most as part of a lance. So, what about a lance of Shadow Hawk's vs. a lance of Griffin's or Wolverines (or a mixed lance of both)? Will the advantages each mech type has multiply more for one type more than the other?

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #62 on: 18 June 2019, 22:06:54 »
Oh I know.  It is all about seeing if I can not only force a PSR from a kick but also one from 20+ damage.

Damage contributing to PSRs is tracked per phase not per turn.  If you fail to do 20 damage in the shooting phase, then nothing you do in the physical phase is going to matter as far as forcing that particular PSR and modifier.

I'd absolutely use Precision if it's available; getting to cut +2 off of the Griffin or Wolverine's TMM at point blank means that within punch range there's only a +1 to hit instead of a +3 (effective, relative to the other weapons on the 'Mech) and that the Shadow Hawk's relative damage spikes because it can continue to use the AC/5 in close combat while the Wolverine and Griffin are forced to choose between physical damage and weapon damage.

It's been mentioned a couple times already but "either seven hexes or zero but nowhere in between" against the Wolverine and "glued to its right side arc" for the Griffin, as long as you win initiative.  If you lose initiative, try to be at least seven hexes away when the shooting starts with a +3.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #63 on: 18 June 2019, 22:28:31 »
Hmn. I wonder how using a Shadow Hawk 2Hb versus a Wolverine II 7H and then a Griffin 2N would change the odds and tactics.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #64 on: 18 June 2019, 22:36:47 »
Hmn. I wonder how using a Shadow Hawk 2Hb versus a Wolverine II 7H and then a Griffin 2N would change the odds and tactics.

It would change them in a way that has nothing to do with this thread.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #65 on: 18 June 2019, 22:51:30 »
It would change them in a way that has nothing to do with this thread.
I'd say it has everything to do with the thread. Or would you rather I made a thread labelled "How do you drive a Shadowhawk 2Hb?"

Not trying to be a snark about it, but merely changing the variants is not really against the spirit of a Shadowhawk versus Griffin and Wolverine discussion. More changing the least strenuous variable.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #66 on: 18 June 2019, 23:01:37 »
I'd say it has everything to do with the thread. Or would you rather I made a thread labelled "How do you drive a Shadowhawk 2Hb?"

Given that the thread very specifically states that it is only asking about the SHD-2H, the answer to your question is yes.

How do you fight in a SHD-2H against a GRF-1N or WVR-6R. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no need to overcomplicate things.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #67 on: 18 June 2019, 23:53:28 »
I think Precision rounds would help a lot more against the Griffin than the Wolverine.  Mostly since the Wolverine would presumably also have them.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #68 on: 19 June 2019, 00:06:06 »
Given that the thread very specifically states that it is only asking about the SHD-2H, the answer to your question is yes.

How do you fight in a SHD-2H against a GRF-1N or WVR-6R. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no need to overcomplicate things.


There's no magical tactic that allows a Shadowhawk to outmaneuver a Griffin or Wolverine.  Nor is there one that allows the Shadow Hawk to close with a Griffin to bring its (barely) superior short range firepower to bear, nor is there a way for the Shadow Hawk to keep the Wolverine at long range.

So if the fickle winds of war force you into such an unwinnable position, what you do is play for time. Wait for the rest of your lance to bail you out.  Or, just maybe, the other pilot reveals himself to be a nincompoop.  Those are your two avenues for victory, and playing for time allows either one to possibly work.


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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #69 on: 19 June 2019, 00:42:18 »
Damage contributing to PSRs is tracked per phase not per turn.  If you fail to do 20 damage in the shooting phase, then nothing you do in the physical phase is going to matter as far as forcing that particular PSR and modifier.

I'd absolutely use Precision if it's available; getting to cut +2 off of the Griffin or Wolverine's TMM at point blank means that within punch range there's only a +1 to hit instead of a +3 (effective, relative to the other weapons on the 'Mech) and that the Shadow Hawk's relative damage spikes because it can continue to use the AC/5 in close combat while the Wolverine and Griffin are forced to choose between physical damage and weapon damage.

It's been mentioned a couple times already but "either seven hexes or zero but nowhere in between" against the Wolverine and "glued to its right side arc" for the Griffin, as long as you win initiative.  If you lose initiative, try to be at least seven hexes away when the shooting starts with a +3.

Well I'll be damned.  I remembered it as per turn not phase.  Well I'll still take the extra damage cluster.


There's no magical tactic that allows a Shadowhawk to outmaneuver a Griffin or Wolverine.  Nor is there one that allows the Shadow Hawk to close with a Griffin to bring its (barely) superior short range firepower to bear, nor is there a way for the Shadow Hawk to keep the Wolverine at long range.

So if the fickle winds of war force you into such an unwinnable position, what you do is play for time. Wait for the rest of your lance to bail you out.  Or, just maybe, the other pilot reveals himself to be a nincompoop.  Those are your two avenues for victory, and playing for time allows either one to possibly work.

Well that is not entirely correct.

As much as open terrain may favor the superior ranged firepower of the Griffin the only way it can keep range is to expose it's back for pretty much the entire fight.  I'm not sure I'd want to do that as the Griffen driver, hoping and praying that enough LRM and AC-5 shots miss or go to limbs.

Per the original poster, the thread is about what do you do when you have a shadow hawk and need to kill a wolverine or griffin.

"Shadow hawk sucks so I want something else" is hardly productive.

I actually see this scenario more like you're in a 2H Shadow Hawk and either a 1N Griffin or 6R Wolverine wants you dead and there is no help close enough to matter.

Running away to fight another day is actually rather problematic as both enemies have slightly superior mobility.  So fighting is your only choice.

There is no surrender, reasoning, or negotiating.  Only kill or be killed.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #70 on: 19 June 2019, 00:55:32 »
I actually see this scenario more like you're in a 2H Shadow Hawk and either a 1N Griffin or 6R Wolverine wants you dead and there is no help close enough to matter.

Running away to fight another day is actually rather problematic as both enemies have slightly superior mobility.  So fighting is your only choice.

There is no surrender, reasoning, or negotiating.  Only kill or be killed.

I don't think this is correct even in the most desperate depths of the post-Star League dark ages.  You don't run to literally outpace the 'Mechs that can keep up with you indefinitely, you run toward your lines and make them pick between pursuing far enough to catch you/do damage but potentially getting stuck into a 2v1 (or worse), or breaking off immediately and letting you go.

That said, to address the earlier post: it's 100% based on initiative.  All of a Shadow Hawk's agency in the fight is in when it wins initiative to push the advantage, and when it loses initiative to crank the TMM as high as possible and the distance as high as possible so the damage gap can be mitigated.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #71 on: 19 June 2019, 06:32:44 »
Per the original poster, the thread is about what do you do when you have a shadow hawk and need to kill a wolverine or griffin.

"Shadow hawk sucks so I want something else" is hardly productive.

Sure. But "better options don't exist" is flatly untrue.

Other posters already covered the most of the viable avenues to victory. There are a lot of things the Shawk can do to maybe win but, absent a pool table map to use its run to counter the jump disadvantage, the most likely victory AAR for the Shawk has this line: "...and a lucky TAC clipped the other mech's gyro..." somewhere in it.

(Or if you play with floating TACs, clipped something detrimental anywhere on the mech.)

So don't do anything silly and hope the dice smile on me. And try to unload my ammo bin to avoid one quick way of losing outright, maybe?

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #72 on: 19 June 2019, 07:08:08 »
Does the Shadowhawk have access to a wheelbarrow and a holocaust cloak?  ;)
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grimlock1

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #73 on: 19 June 2019, 08:28:35 »
Does the Shadowhawk have access to a wheelbarrow and a holocaust cloak?  ;)
If it does, then I feel that I have been denied critical, need-to-know, information!

Here's a crazy option, assuming you aren't fighting on a drop port tarmac, there's going to be some cover. When ever I picture any match up I almost always assume the standard map sheet.  Get your butt behind one of those hills in the corner.   Use the trees and partial cover to stick to a walk, while maintaining higher defensive mods.  Post TW partial cover rules aren't as helpful here but it's something. 

Also, if you break LOS, the Griff has to move to require. As they do that, you orbit the hill/woods patch with them.  Think about chasing your sibling through the house.  They are on the opposite side of the dining room table.  If you move clockwise, they match you. You double back, they do the same. But in this case, as the Griff orbits, they run into the edges of the map and are forced to close the range, which brings them close enough so you could be up their nose in 2 turns.  Or they could reverse direction, just like your sibling. Or they could just park in some trees and plink with the PPC.

For the record, is talking about alternate ammo loads getting into the "what you want, not what you have," argument? If it is, then just ignore the next couple paragraphs.
What at about AP ammo for the Shad?  But the +1 TH and the half size ammo bin are big downsides. Caseless will give you 40 rounds but will jam up on snake-eyes.
Inferno SRMs won't cripple a Griff, but they will make wooded hexes unattractive hiding places. The shad can jump into a burning woods hex, fire the LRM and AC/5 and not even need that 12th heat sink. 

Are we considering SW era munitions from TO?
Tandem charge SRMs are certainly attractive. As many as 2 crit checks per turn, TH penalty of the AP autocannon ammo. The bin size is still cut in half, but the SRM isn't your primary weapon.

We've already talked about using smoke to reduce the Giff's long range advantage, but that works both ways.  Smoke does allow you to create mobile cover.  And if you are willing to give up both missile bins, you can create 2 light smoke hexes, or 1 heave per turn.

Incendiary LRM ammo is also a viable option.  It keeps the LRM as an offensive weapon, albiet as effectively an LRM-4, but it also lets you start fires.  As we've noted, burning hexes don't bother the Shad all that much.


After thinking about it, Wolverine fight scares me more, which is a bit of a surprise.  Wolverines never impressed me much...  You all have the same ground speed, but you give up 2 hexes of jump to both.  You have the same armor.   The Griff has double your long range fire power and no ammo limits on the big gun, but on a single map, you have a chance to force a close range fight.  the problem with the Wolvie is that on a single map, they have a chance to force a close range fight. The Wolverine has half your long range fire, which isn't much to begin with, but does have a 57% advantage in close range power. Between the Wolverine's armor and your minimal firepower, the Wolvie could just charge straight in, weather the "storm" of AC/5 and LRM-5, and bring you into close range.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #74 on: 19 June 2019, 09:03:12 »
If TacOps and quirk rules are in effect, I have to wonder if a Shadow Hawk that finds itself in melee combat with a Wolverine might actually want to pull a Durant Carlyle(sorta) and go for a bear hug. You can't actually do what he did, but the to hit mods mean even your LRM is reliable at that range, and the numbers for your other weapons are good enough that you can afford to double-rate your autocannon. This is obviously very risky, but it goes a long way towards evening out the firepower disadvantage, you'll actually have an edge is larger damage groupings, and the Wolverine's cramped cockpit will be a hindrance in trying to break away.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #75 on: 19 June 2019, 09:12:16 »
Given that the thread very specifically states that it is only asking about the SHD-2H, the answer to your question is yes.

How do you fight in a SHD-2H against a GRF-1N or WVR-6R. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no need to overcomplicate things.

Well that question is answered.  There's really not much to say, other than everyone repeating the same thing.  Stay close to the Griffin as long as possible.  Stay far from the Wolverine as long as possible.

The truth is, with max damage, the Griffin does a whole 1 point more than the Shadow Hawk.  The Wolverine does a whole 3 points more damage.  People are saying one side wins 6/10 or 7/10, that's wrong.  The truth is, the battles will be more like 51/100 or 52/100.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #76 on: 19 June 2019, 09:46:21 »
The truth is, with max damage, the Griffin does a whole 1 point more than the Shadow Hawk.  The Wolverine does a whole 3 points more damage.  People are saying one side wins 6/10 or 7/10, that's wrong.  The truth is, the battles will be more like 51/100 or 52/100.
I disagree with your assessment. Your near 50/50 odds would be valid if it was a question of equal mobility, equal armor and more or less equal firepower across the range spectrum. Depending on the terrain, those range bands will dramatically change the fight.

We also seem to be talking around a rather salient point but never getting there.  The Shadow Hawk -2H is kind of a turd. It works okay as a wingman, but in a stand-up, 1v1, fight it's just not very good. It wasn't "designed" to operate in Star League battalion size formations.  It was designed to sort of match the art work FASA had on hand, relying on some deprecated rules, and using limited experience with the table top.  We've had more than 3 decades to think about this when FASA designed these mechs over the course of months.   We're talking about this like there is some golden insight that they had back in the 80's that no one has ever been able to identify.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #77 on: 19 June 2019, 09:55:06 »
Well that question is answered.  There's really not much to say, other than everyone repeating the same thing.  Stay close to the Griffin as long as possible.  Stay far from the Wolverine as long as possible.

The truth is, with max damage, the Griffin does a whole 1 point more than the Shadow Hawk.  The Wolverine does a whole 3 points more damage.  People are saying one side wins 6/10 or 7/10, that's wrong.  The truth is, the battles will be more like 51/100 or 52/100.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Two extra jump gets you into a rear arc in bad terrain or puts you on the side with a stripped leg or an open torso.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #78 on: 19 June 2019, 10:08:01 »
I may be remembering wrong, but all of the talk about the SHD's LRM rack delivering 5 damage seems incorrect.  It's an LRM-10 rack, from what I recall, which should average 6 points of damage.  The "K" variant has a PPC and LRM-5, but the standard "H" uses the AC/5, LRM-10, ML, and SRM-2.  That should provide an average of 11 scattered damage with the LRM and AC at PPC ranges against the GRF's typical 10 point concentrated PPC shot (the GRF can't fire both the PPC and LRM-10 rack in the same turn without building a significant amount of heat).  The GRF has to maintain the range, but it's only got an advantage in terms of better damage grouping, not raw damage, in its favor.  Once the range drops to where the ML and SRM come into effective play, the SHD should have the advantage.  The GRF can jump further, but doesn't have the heat sinking capacity to do that and fire the PPC without building excess heat.

The WLV has considerably better point-blank firepower, but inferior ranged fire and much more marginal heat sinking ability, so in that fight I'd definitely want Infernos loaded in the SRM rack to hopefully reduce incoming fire from a toasty opponent.  If I can inflict some heat with the Infernos (either hitting directly with them, or by igniting woods), he either has to hold back on a weapon or else slow down from heat penalties and risk getting out-maneuvered and kicked or punched from an angle where he can't return the favor with more than a single punch.  The SHD can try to keep the range open to maintain its long-range firepower advantage, or brawl and hope for the best whenever it can't do that, because it's going to lose MOST of the short-ranged fire fights against a better in-fighter design.

Basically, all else being the same, I'd give the SHD even or slightly better odds against the GRF, but lower than even odds against the WLV.  The underlying problem is that the SHD is a true generalist, rather effective against vehicles and most light 'Mechs, or for various roles by using specialized ammo, but not at all optimized for combat against 'Mechs of its own weight class and speed.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #79 on: 19 June 2019, 10:10:21 »
With the Griffin, if you can get it where you can charge it, it might be worth it. The return fire won't be accurate and you can probably do more damage that way then with weapons and a kick.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #80 on: 19 June 2019, 10:12:28 »
It's an LRM-10 rack, from what I recall, which should average 6 points of damage.  The "K" variant has a PPC and LRM-5, but the standard "H" uses the AC/5, LRM-10, ML, and SRM-2.

Your recall is incorrect. The K drops the ML and SRM for MOAR HEATSINKS and upgrading the AC/5 to a PPC, which also gets you...MOAR HEATSINKS. The LRM stays the same.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #81 on: 19 June 2019, 10:17:35 »
I may be remembering wrong, but all of the talk about the SHD's LRM rack delivering 5 damage seems incorrect.  It's an LRM-10 rack, from what I recall, which should average 6 points of damage.  The "K" variant has a PPC and LRM-5, but the standard "H" uses the AC/5, LRM-10, ML, and SRM-2. 

All official introtech ShadowHawks have a LRM-5 rack, including the 2H.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #82 on: 19 June 2019, 10:25:14 »
The truth is, with max damage, the Griffin does a whole 1 point more than the Shadow Hawk.  The Wolverine does a whole 3 points more damage.  People are saying one side wins 6/10 or 7/10, that's wrong.  The truth is, the battles will be more like 51/100 or 52/100.

The difference is that the Griffin and Wolverine both have range bands that their weaponry work well at, while the Shadow Hawk's grab-bag weapon loadout doesn't leave it with any range that it actually performs.  So yes, while neither of them have significantly more maximum firepower, they still beat the Shadow Hawk thanks to having more focused weapon arrays.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #83 on: 19 June 2019, 11:21:18 »
I don't think this is correct even in the most desperate depths of the post-Star League dark ages.  You don't run to literally outpace the 'Mechs that can keep up with you indefinitely, you run toward your lines and make them pick between pursuing far enough to catch you/do damage but potentially getting stuck into a 2v1 (or worse), or breaking off immediately and letting you go.

That said, to address the earlier post: it's 100% based on initiative.  All of a Shadow Hawk's agency in the fight is in when it wins initiative to push the advantage, and when it loses initiative to crank the TMM as high as possible and the distance as high as possible so the damage gap can be mitigated.

That's where the whole no help close enough to matter part of the scenario lays and I seem to remember there was an explicit scenario in the fluff where a planet's only defense against an invader was a retired DCMS mechwarrior and their 2H Shadow Hawk.  No lance mates, not even conventional back up.  If I can ever remember where I saw it I'll be glad to give proper citation.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #84 on: 19 June 2019, 11:48:31 »
That's where the whole no help close enough to matter part of the scenario lays and I seem to remember there was an explicit scenario in the fluff where a planet's only defense against an invader was a retired DCMS mechwarrior and their 2H Shadow Hawk.  No lance mates, not even conventional back up.  If I can ever remember where I saw it I'll be glad to give proper citation.

I remember something like that, but with a Phoenix Hawk rather than Shadow Hawk, in the in-game fluff of MechWarriors 2.
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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #85 on: 19 June 2019, 11:56:00 »
I'll admit it is possible I'm misremembering the mech but no matter what the ultimate point is that for this fight answers of "wait for/run towards help" and "get a better mech" are not possible and there is official fluff precedent for such a situation.

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #86 on: 19 June 2019, 12:49:56 »
Depends, in 3025/3050, a Generalist mech Jack Of All Trades Master of None, in 2750 part of a Battle Regiment, by the Fed Com Civil War back Battle Type Formations. Not really using them as Scouts or Assault mechs like they were forced into by the SW and Clan invasion.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #87 on: 19 June 2019, 14:26:32 »
Sure. But "better options don't exist" is flatly untrue.

Only if you assume that the Shadow Hawk pilot has ready access to other battlemechs of his choice just because he wants them, or that his commanders have enough mechs to pick the best one for every occasion. If all you have is a shadow hawk, then you have solve these problems with a shadow hawk, not complain that nobody gave you a wolverine, griffin, marauder, or atlas.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Sir Chaos

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #88 on: 19 June 2019, 15:00:44 »
Only if you assume that the Shadow Hawk pilot has ready access to other battlemechs of his choice just because he wants them, or that his commanders have enough mechs to pick the best one for every occasion. If all you have is a shadow hawk, then you have solve these problems with a shadow hawk, not complain that nobody gave you a wolverine, griffin, marauder, or atlas.

And even if you cannot solve the problem with a Shadow Hawk, at least you can try, and describe how to get as close as possible to solving them.

Which is what some people here have tried, in between all the "customize it" and "get a better mech" derailments.
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Ruger

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Re: How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?
« Reply #89 on: 19 June 2019, 15:22:57 »
BTW, do the pilots have any SPA’s? That could also affect things.

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