BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Inner Sphere => Topic started by: Elmoth on 15 June 2020, 07:27:02
-
Hello all,
I have bookmarked the IS 3025 industry thread by Cazaril. Youc an find it here. It is a great thread. i recommend you check it.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=30882.0
I did the crazy thing and taking Cazaril’s list for 3025-3030 production I translated it all into an EXCEL document (attached to this message in case you find it useful).
Things that come forward after a cursory dynamic table analysis:
1. There are 536 production lines listed. I added 3 or so that were not in the list and removed some (like the Centipede tank) that seem to come later. 157 of these lines are mech production lines, 117 tanks, 95 for components, 58 for dropships an 49 for ASF. Jumpships and support vehicles (the difference between tank and support is not clear in the listing, mind you since I decided about it mid table) are the next, at only 18 each. VTOLs get a meagre 10 entries and conventional fighters 9. It is obvious that the production lists are heavily biased towards mechs, since according to the list there are less conventional tanks being produced than mechs sphere-wide. tanks, VTOLs and other products ar elikely to be produced in every single planet. Every planet with 20 century tech base should be able to produce Scorpions or Angel fighters, for example, so it is quite clear that the tanks/VTOLS/fighters should not be exclusively produced in the planets where they are listed.
2. A total of 145 planets have production lines (of all types). The ones that get the most production lines are Tharkad (17) and Hesperus II (16), followed by Luthien and Taurus (13), New Avalon (12) and Sterope (11). Pandora, Ares, Alshain, Irian and Kalidasa get 9 each.
Going for mechs and factions I found some surprises (for me):
1. There are 61 mechs being produced in the IS in 3025-3030. The most common mechs (in number of production lines) are the stinger (10) and the locust and wasp (9 each). After that we get the Marauder with 8 lines!!! More than the griffin (7) and Archer (7). The Warhammer (6) Thunderbolt and Rifleman (5) come next with the Wolverine, Crusader and Phoenix Hawk and Panther getting 4 each. Then come the assault galore with 3 lines each: Atlas, Battlemaster and Victor along with the Trebuchet. Other mechs get 2 or less. The fact that the Valkyrie gets a single production line and that the supposedly common shadow hawk gets only 2 surprised me.
2. The FWL is the one with the most production lines (48) follow by the Lyrans (29), Fedsuns (22), Capellans and Taurians(!!!) (17), Dracs (15) and the Magistracy and Outworlds alliance coming last at only 4 lines each.
3. Th main mech production planets are Hesperus (8), New Avalon and Tikonov (7) Keystone and Kalidasa (6), Talon, Taurus, Coventry, Irian and Luthien at 5 each. If I were a Capellan I would get a fit each time Tikonov tries to leave the Confederacy since ti contains more than a third of the Capellan production lines.
4. The 48 production lines of the FWL are quite spread. They have 16 mech production planets, with 6 lines tops per planet. Their mechs are Warhammers, Crusaders and Trebuchets (3 production lines each), Marauder, Hermes II, Griffin, Flea, Awesome, Wolverine and Orion, and the 3 bugs (2 lines each) and the following with 1 production line each: Battlemaster, Stalker, Archer, Thug, Guillotine, Thunderbolt, Rifleman, Quickdraw, Goliath, Shadow Hawk, Cronus (in 3030+) Hunchback, Cicada, Phoenix Hawk, Spider, Vulcan, Hermes, and Bombardier (refit only)
5. The Lyrans (29 lines) rely more in the 2 production centres of Hesperus (8 lines) and Coventry (5) that sport almost half their total mech production, followed by Furillo (3) and Twyncross (3). Their most common mech lines are Archer (3), Battlemaster, Rifleman and Zeus (2 each) and the rest have 1 line each: Chameleon, Flashman, Vulcan, Thunderbolt, Crusader, Banshee, Stalker, Griffin, Wolfhound (3028), Firestarter, Phoenix Hawk, Commando (only 1 line!!?!), Marauder, Warhammer, Atlas, Hatchetman (3023), Longbow and the 3 bugs. Given the Archer, Battlemaster, Zeus, Rifleman I can see how the hravy approach to problems works out for the lyrans.
6. The fedsuns rely in 3 planets for mass production: Avalon (7), Talon (5) and Quentin (4) sport 16 of their 22 mech production lines between them. Their mechs selection is the most spread of all factions, since they have all their mechs being produced in one or 2 lines at most. it also means that when they lose a production centre tehy lose the mech replacement for that model in most cases. They have 2 lines of the following mechs: Enforcer, Griffin, Jagermech, Marauder. And the following in 1-liners: Wasp, Dervish, Victor, Phoenix Hawk, Kintaro, Marauder II (3012), Hornet (2990), Centurion (only one!?!?), Valkyrie, Atlas, Rifleman, Locust, Wolverine and Longbow.
7. The capellans (17) rely in Tikonov (7) and have the rest of their mech production lines spread among 7 planets in ones and twos. Their mechs are the Cataphract, Vindicator, Victor and Stinger (2 each) followed by single lines of Locust, Stinger, Bombardier, Wasp, Raven (3024 experimental), Thunderbolt, Griffin, Thug, Wolverine and Rifleman. Cataphracts and Vindicators for everybody, but the Cappies certainly have a fairly weak industrial base if these numbers mean anything (that can not be the case since I do not list the production rate of any of the production lines).
8. Then comes the Taurians, overcoming the Combine in production lines!!! They have more small mech lines, granted, but the fact that they have 17 on the combine’s 15 surprised me. Taurius (5) and Ilushin (4) are the biggest ones with Pinard and New Vandenberg (3) going second and the group finishing with Perdition and Macleod’s land at 1. Their most produced mech is the Marauder and the Stinger (3), followed by the 2 other bugs and the warhammer and Thunderbolt (2). Then they aplso produce the Commando, Archer and Griffin. Sounds like a heavy + bug combo for their mechs: Marauders warhammers and thunderbolts supported by the 3 bugs.
9. The Draconis Combine's 15 mech production lines are centered in Luthien (5) and New Oslo (3). The other poductive planets have a single line each. The most common mech is the Panther (4) followed by the Archer (2). Then they have a single line of the following, Quickdraw, Dragon (!!! Only one!?!), Jenner (same: only one!?!?) Phoenix Hawk, Charger, Atlas, Spider, Stingr LAM and Lancelot. The Lancelot surprised me here, but they kept it in limited production apparently. Why anybody would keep a mech line at half production in the universe is a mystery to me when the description implies that it is a willing decision, not a production problem. But the thing that surprised me the most is the Dragon numbers and specially the Jenners having only 1 production line. it must be more efficient than the new Avalon Valkyrie line or my numbers do not seem to add up... I would have expected A LOT more resistance to the creation of the FRR since they lose a significant number of production lines in that process, including all their Panther lines, their most common mech.
10. The Magistracy has 2 centres: Canopus (3) and Dunianshire (1). They are the second producers of the Shadow Hawk, and then produce the 3 bug mechs. Given that the other shadowhawk is in the FWL it seems that the poster boy of the BT universe should be present in the Southwest for the most part. Plain and simple the MoC suck in mech production, big time. They must import anything relevant or rely in heavily modding their SHD to get proper combat units. Or mercs, that is th same as importing mechs with pilots.
11. Finally, The Outworlds alliance concentrate their production in the capital of Apheratz, with 4 production lines: The Merlin and the 3 bugs. The Merkin is quite an achievement when previously you only produced bugs! all kudos to the OA, except that they are not much better than the Magistracy here. mechs need to be imported and are quite proceless. it is not strange that these 2 powers rely in other methods to defend themselves than mech units.
12. Regarding the mechs that are more spread:
- Locust: all the factions have it. All of them
- Wasp everybody except dracs
- Stinger: everybody except the Dracs and Fedsuns
- Marauder: FWL, Fedsuns (2 each), Lyrans and Tarians. Neither cappies nor dracs produce it.
- Griffin: Fedsuns and FWL (2), Lyrans, Capellans and Taurians. Only the Combine does not produce it among the big guys.
- Archer: lyrans (3), dracs (2), FWL, and taurians.
- Warhammer: FWL (3), taurians 82) and Lyrans.
- Rifleman: Lyrans (2), Fedsuns, capellans an FWL. the periphery and Dracs do not produce it.
- Thunderbolt: Cappies FWL, Lrans and taurians. Fedsuns and Dracs do not make it.
- Wolverine: FWL (2), Fedsuns and Capellans. I thought this would be more common.
- Crusader: FWL (3) and Lyrans.
- Phoenix Hawk: Dracs, Fedsuns, FWL and Lyrans. All the major factions except the cappies.
- Panther. Dracs only (4), all production in the Rasalhague area. The Lyrans should be bored to see these around.
- Atlas: Dracs, FedSuns & Lyrans
- Victor: Capellans (2) and Fedsuns. I wouldn't have said it was a Capellan mech.
- Battlemaster: Lyrans (2), FWL
- Trebuchet: FWL (3). A pure FWL mech!
I will go through ASF, vehicles, dropships and jumpships in the future. Meanwhile enjoy the EXCEL.
Cheers,
Xavi
-
considering it's 3025, i wave to wonder how many of those production lines are glorified garage shops...
-
Where's the Thug line in the Capellan Confederation from? As far as I know, the CC as of 3025 had lost the ability to produce assault 'Mechs. (It used to build Victors, Highlanders, and Longbows iirc.)
-
You mention about having one line but do you know how many mechs can be produced in a year with one line? My understanding it that it take a lot more time to build an assault mech than a light mech,
-
Where's the Thug line in the Capellan Confederation from? As far as I know, the CC as of 3025 had lost the ability to produce assault 'Mechs. (It used to build Victors, Highlanders, and Longbows iirc.)
Caz has a lot of conjecture in his list, labeled as "possible" production.
-
I always felt like Tikonov was the most underfluffed mech factory ever. We know it is big, and once produced a lot of different mechs.
But the format for factories in House Liao: The Capellan Confederation was so useless that we never found out what Tikonov actually made (damn their number score entry instead of actual products like the other House books!). I always assumed Thunderbolts, Crusaders, Maybe a bug mech, and Vindicators before they started the Cataphract there.
We really have no clue what was made their during the Succession Wars. From what I recall, it was the largest factory in the Confederation.
-
considering it's 3025, i wave to wonder how many of those production lines are glorified garage shops...
Merlin . . . Cronus . . .
Tikonov is interesting . . . lol, building Thunderbolts as Capellan 'assaults' makes it more interesting. I thought the Cappies lost their assault ability when St Ives left with the Victor plant though its a fat heavy really.
-
Wasn't there a line in TRO:3025 quoted as saying "The Archer is produced in every realm & by the Wolf Dragoons" or something like that?
I think a lot of things are probably like the FWL factory that makes the Guillotine in 3025.
It isn't a full time deal.
They do limited production runs & then alternate to some other model.
So stuff like that might be why you only have one Permanent factory line devoted to the Shadow Hawk in the entire IS. Because everyone else is doing short runs of them.
I mean, we know its not like they can't manufacture them.
The Suns refits them into 2D & 2D2 in 3025/3050 respectively & the Kuritans have the 2K, so they do make refit kits.
And the Suns eventually puts the 5D into production on Nanking? iirc.
So who's to say that Nanking hadn't been doing limited production runs over the last 200 years of the SW which is how the Hawk hasn't been fluffed as going extinct.
I'm betting the CC had a lot of production lines for the unseen which is what kept those #s strong.
We just don't know where they were each located.
Going from memory, think about the Sun's and Star Corps, IIRC.
They were producing the LongBow-7Q in 3025 IIRC.
And eventually started a production line for the Warhammer-8D in 3067 or so.
But who's to say that that factory didn't do occasional runs of WarHammers as well as Refit Kits for the 6D/6K models which is why we get a good amount of 6R, 6D, & 6K across the FS in 3025.
Much like all those "secondary" factories that popped up in Wars of Reaving for the clans.
The IS probably has a lot of "NOT-Hesperus" factories around the IS that only have a couple mech lines & they alternate limited production runs.
-
They might not have the specifications to build them from scratch.
Dunno why they don't just reverse engineer for full time production.
SHD-5x and WHM-7x sound like Project Phoenix models. AFAIK participation in it entitled producers to full manufacturing specifications and technical assistance in putting the revised models into production.
Those scratch factories popping up all over the place during the Jihad tended to produce either primitives or really old production models themselves only a step or to up from the primitives.
-
Those scratch factories popping up all over the place during the Jihad tended to produce either primitives or really old production models themselves only a step or to up from the primitives.
Oh I know, but those aren't actually what I'm talking about.
I'm just saying that when a mech lists off a few factories in the TRO entry, those are the "Major" factories its made at.
As Wars of Reaving showed us, there are "Minor" factories that aren't listed in the TROs.
Actually, I think even the IS doesn't list off every factory location for every mech.
Like I mentioned above, some of the common ones are listed as being produced by every house but we don't have an actual location for every one of those factory locations in those cases.
And in some cases they only showed up in later products, not in the TRO entry.
Not that we can't also get overlap between the 2 issues.
You might have an indi factory that is making ShadowHawk-1R's, while you have a smaller battlemech factory not in the TRO entry making the 2H occasionally in between runs of Wolverines.
Neither of which is one of the 2 "Major" factories listed in the FWL & Periphery.
-
To answer the question of origin of the info, you have the link in the first sentences of the first post. It is a compiled list in this same forum, and there you get all the sources Cazariel was using
Notes – HL:CC suggests that the Tikonov facility may have produced Thunderbolts and Vindictors, while Sarna.net suggest that at one time it may have produced the Thunderbolt, Thug, Griffin, Stinger, Bombardier, Vindicator. Clarification is need as to what it actually produced in 3025.
So yes, the Tikonov Thug is speculation. I just went for maximum production figures, since these are still quite small sphere-wide.
I do not think I agree with the "limited runs" of other mechs being done in some of the plants. Tjis is 3025 or previous. That is Mad Max meets Arturian legend. Most mechs would be repaired in chop shops y hand, as an artisan product, not in assembly lines. The conversion of stuff was not tha easy at the time. And if increasing production would have been so easy all the IS powers would have been doing it decades ago. mech production is described more as a trickle than anything, and an invasion is mounted when you have assembled a spare batallion of stuff during the last 10 years or so. Quite a difference from what we see real world countries do when they are on a war footing. So I do not take production to be so easy or being able to be ramped up fast. That is what the SL memory cores of the gray death legion allowed, but not what we had before. I can buy other facilities being able to produce mechs, but not on a massive scale. Maybe 5 mechs tops in a year. Maybe in a decade.
In any case the facilities are based on FASA stuff, and we know these are hardly consistent. I found it interesting the kind of image they showed. Clearly the top dog in diverse stuff is the FWL. I would say that is infighting keeps the major power in check. And the Dracs are wauy worse than I thought, but Luthien is some powerhouse when its lines produce so much. probable these are double or 10 lines side b side. Otherwise yu csnnot have enough dragons and Jenners to replace combat loses.
Cheers
Xavi
-
Actual civil war in the Free Worlds League is not common. Strife has more to do with groups trying to overthrow planetary governments. During the entirety of the Succession Wars, there was one civil war, and a war of secession. The civil war would have never occurred without the Wolf's Dragoons, as they had everything that Anton would need to even try to take power--even then it took the combined intel might of ROM, MI4, MI6, Wolfnet, and the MASK to make it plausible. In the background, MI4, and MI6 were actively working to destabilize worlds in the League, tying Janos down.
-
Hello all,
I have bookmarked the IS 3025 industry thread by Cazaril. Youc an find it here. It is a great thread. i recommend you check it.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=30882.0
I
What about the Longbow?
-
What about the Longbow?
She is purty.
-
I do not think I agree with the "limited runs" of other mechs being done in some of the plants. Tjis is 3025 or previous. That is Mad Max meets Arturian legend. Most mechs would be repaired in chop shops y hand, as an artisan product, not in assembly lines. The conversion of stuff was not tha easy at the time. And if increasing production would have been so easy all the IS powers would have been doing it decades ago. mech production is described more as a trickle than anything, and an invasion is mounted when you have assembled a spare batallion of stuff during the last 10 years or so. Quite a difference from what we see real world countries do when they are on a war footing. So I do not take production to be so easy or being able to be ramped up fast. That is what the SL memory cores of the gray death legion allowed, but not what we had before. I can buy other facilities being able to produce mechs, but not on a massive scale. Maybe 5 mechs tops in a year. Maybe in a decade.
Sorry if I was unclear.
I was not suggesting they were large runs, nor was I suggesting that the factory just ramped up production lines.
We have cannon information that production isn't always going on the same mech all the time from the Guillotine example.
There might have even been some other examples but that is the one that sticks in my head.
Also, I'm not saying these just appear from nowhere.
I'm assuming that any factory has to shift production from 1 mech to another, &/or has 1 spare line for doing short term runs.
Its entirely possible that they do several runs of 1 mech type & then have to convert over to another mech type.
In any case the facilities are based on FASA stuff, and we know these are hardly consistent. I found it interesting the kind of image they showed. Clearly the top dog in diverse stuff is the FWL. I would say that is infighting keeps the major power in check. And the Dracs are wauy worse than I thought, but Luthien is some powerhouse when its lines produce so much. probable these are double or 10 lines side b side. Otherwise yu csnnot have enough dragons and Jenners to replace combat loses.
I doubt Luthien has 10 lines running side by side but maybe.
I'm guessing its far more likely they are just very efficient similar but not quite on the same scale as the way New Avalon's Valkyrie factory was able to maintain 130/year even in the 3SW.
I only say this because of some notes from the SLSB about Defiance.
We know that less than 4 mech lines is a "Small" factory.
We know that Defiance is the largest mech factory outside of Terra that still functions in 3025.
We know that Defiance is only a "mid-tier" factory by SL standards.
We also know that Coventry is #2 & Irian? is #3. So at best Luthien might be #4 in production, IDK.
I'd also point out that even that production is dwarfed by the 3050 Vulcan production in the FWL.
I forget the figures, but I want to say they went from making 20/year to 14/Month or something like that, check TRO3050U for the quote.
Tells you how good that Helm Core was at bringing technology back up to SL specs.
My guess is that Luthien was a powerhouse to be sure & was very efficient but didn't really get a lot of lines going till after the helm core allowed them to expand.
Did they make anything besides the , they made the Dragon, Quickdraw, & Charger in 3025?
Also, the FWL had some good diversity but I don't think it was too much more than the other houses.
Even if the CC doesn't tell us what those factories are they clearly had them with quite a few lines so I'm guessing most the Unseen, the Vindicator, & maybe Catapult were being produced.
Off the top of my head, the Suns had 1 or more lines for..... Locust, Wasp, Hornet, Valkyrie, PhoenixHawk, Centurion, Enforcer, Griffin, Kintaro, Wolverine, Rifleman, Jagermech, Crusader, Exterminator, Marauder, Victor, Longbow, Atlas
With things like the Stinger, ShadowHawk, Warhammer, Archer, & Stalker being very common it makes you wonder if those weren't being produced somewhere too.
-
If "small" means less than 4 production lines, are single-line limited-output factories even mentioned? There could be dozens of single-line factories producing a meager 1-4 'Mechs per year, with most of the work being done by hand and only a few operations still being fully automated after all those years. It's still got to be faster/cheaper than being completely hand-built, and there is no shortage of buyers, so they remain in business despite the higher production costs compared to the remaining fully automated factories. That could account for the continued production of several 'Mechs which are said to be produced by all of the Houses, yet only one or two have factories listed for them, otherwise the fluff doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't say that they're produced in large volume, just that they're still being produced.
For any design that's NOT being almost entirely hand-built, the retooling of the line on a frequent basis doesn't make a lot of sense, because any down time during the conversion of the line is costing a fortune in lost output. MAYBE changing once every couple of years would be believable, but not back and forth several times a year. It's not like you can't sell the finished products for a good price, no matter which design you produce, so the tendency would be to continue producing a single product per line unless there's a serious demand (or major contract) for a much more profitable 'Mech that justifies the hefty conversion cost.
-
If "small" means less than 4 production lines, are single-line limited-output factories even mentioned? There could be dozens of single-line factories producing a meager 1-4 'Mechs per year, with most of the work being done by hand and only a few operations still being fully automated after all those years. It's still got to be faster/cheaper than being completely hand-built, and there is no shortage of buyers, so they remain in business despite the higher production costs compared to the remaining fully automated factories. That could account for the continued production of several 'Mechs which are said to be produced by all of the Houses, yet only one or two have factories listed for them, otherwise the fluff doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't say that they're produced in large volume, just that they're still being produced.
Honestly, they just mention that anything less than 5 lines is a "small" firm doing limited runs or prototypes or something like that.
I do think we need to be clear on what "by hand" means.
Factories cranking out cars & tanks in the 1950's were "by hand" to my knowledge, but it was still a production line.
When people say "hand built" I am thinking of Bander mechs where he was literally building 1 mech at a time by hand.
And agreed on the fact that not every factory is mentioned in the TRO, the newer ones even state "Main" factory.
Tertiary facilities don't get mentioned which is how I account for stuff like Davion not having a Stinger/Archer factory when they are 2 of the most common mechs in existance.
Or how House Kurita has any mediums at all in 3025. Someone has to be making at least a small # each year.
Look at the House Davion factory output in 3025. Valkyries-130/year. Atlas-5/year.
Part of the FC alliance included Defiance coming to Quentin to look into ways to improve the Atlas production.
For any design that's NOT being almost entirely hand-built, the retooling of the line on a frequent basis doesn't make a lot of sense, because any down time during the conversion of the line is costing a fortune in lost output. MAYBE changing once every couple of years would be believable, but not back and forth several times a year.
That doesn't seem to be the implication of the Guillotine & I hope I didn't imply that I am suggesting they retool each year.
I'm thinking its more like per decade or something like that.
They could spit out enough every decade or 2 to replace some of the battle losses so they still have a Jumping-Heavy in their TO&E for units where that is needed.
The rest of the time they just produce some parts to do base repairs.
Honestly, we don't even know how things work inside the factories.
I mean, if it really is 1 line per mech.
Then what happens when you see several new designs show up in 3050+
Are they building entirely new lines?
Are they converting an older line over to a new mech chassis?
But if that is the case, how do we still have new variants of that old chassis being produced?
Or, is it really just 2-3 lines & the "conversion" once a year is why they are only producing a couple dozen chassis total for the 4-6 mechs produced there.
I've never worked in an auto, tank, plane, boat factory before, so I don't know what all is really needed in "converting a line".
We know factories shut down for a while to create the 3050 variants but those were whole new tech models.
Maybe converting a line from producing Warhammers to Guillotines only takes a few days because so much of it is still "people" & they have been trained on the differences between the 2 chassis & where to drill the holes & tighten the bolts, etc etc.
Honestly, I don't know.
But I do find the "adding new mechs" issue to be a little suspicious because while I to believe that a lot of our 3025 factories had dormant lines from battle damage. I'm not sure if every factory can be ramped up to Valkyrie speed the way the Marik Vulcan-5M was.
That also doesn't count for factories that had seen little to know battle in the entirety of 3 S-Wars like New Avalon or Tharkad.
Now I'm kind of curious if any of the house capitals are fluffed as ever being invaded in the SW.
-
Depends on the fluff, I guess. Primarily though, unless ES, FF or XLFE is involved, I'd tend towards refit kits being applied to extant mechs. The new models that take advantage of newer construction materials would probably displace whatever's being made at the primary production site.
-
I've never worked in an auto, tank, plane, boat factory before, so I don't know what all is really needed in "converting a line".
We know factories shut down for a while to create the 3050 variants but those were whole new tech models.
Maybe converting a line from producing Warhammers to Guillotines only takes a few days because so much of it is still "people" & they have been trained on the differences between the 2 chassis & where to drill the holes & tighten the bolts, etc etc.
Honestly, I don't know.
Just as a (relatively) modern example, when Grumman switched their Tomcat production line from the F-14A to the F-14A+/B in the mid 1980s, only relatively minor retooling was needed and that was mostly at the sub assembly level. The updated tooling/jigs were created while the A model was still in production, the necessary toolings/jigs were swapped out and the assembly mechanics spent a week or two in training on the updated procedures, picked up their rivet guns, and went back to work like nothing happened. The same process happened a few years later when they switched to the F-14D. In both cases, a separate line was established for taking older F-14A airframes and bringing them up to B or D standard, while new-build airframes were interspersed with them.
As long as there were no major reworks in the chassis itself, I would assume factory downtime in the 31st century probably wouldn't be too different. When GKT on Satalice decided to switch from the PXH-1 Phoenix Hawk to the PXH-3K, their team probably spent a week or two learning about the production changes, and installed the different parts received from the new parts contractors with only new fittings made to the chassis. Maybe a months downtime tops if their suppliers had to change.
-
The fact that the Valkyrie gets a single production line and that the supposedly common shadow hawk gets only 2 surprised me.
in the case of the Valkyrie, the Corean's factory was supposed to be the only surviving fully automated factories, able to turn out over a regiment's worth a year.
as far as the shadow hawk goes, i suspect that it used to have al to more places building it.. it was one of the Star League's main trooper designs. 200+ years of constant production before the star league fell means there was probably a lot of them out there. especially since we're told that Lang Industries produced for both the SLDF and the successor states during that time. since those original factories were destroyed in 2776 due to the amaris civil war, it is likely the succession wars lines were ones started to produce spare parts for existing ones, which then started putting out full mechs later as the number of mechs in service dropped during the early succession wars.
-
as far as the shadow hawk goes, i suspect that it used to have al to more places building it.. it was one of the Star League's main trooper designs. 200+ years of constant production before the star league fell means there was probably a lot of them out there. especially since we're told that Lang Industries produced for both the SLDF and the successor states during that time. since those original factories were destroyed in 2776 due to the amaris civil war, it is likely the succession wars lines were ones started to produce spare parts for existing ones, which then started putting out full mechs later as the number of mechs in service dropped during the early succession wars.
I wouldn't quite say that. It's original producer's main factory was in the Hegemony. One of the oldest worlds thereof. It must have had all the bells and whistles and quite the output when still extant. Probably why they never got around to rebuilding it. The tech for it might have been lost.
-
Big difference between converting to a new variant of the same basic chassis versus converting to a totally different product.
Note the in WWII, production of the M4A1 Sherman tank was not significantly delayed by upgrading to the M4A2 (over 90% of the parts were interchangeable), but the M4A3 utilized a welded hull instead of the previous cast hull, and in most instances production had to be moved to new facilities or even new manufacturing companies. Several of the existing facilities continued to produce the welded hulls in lower volume for support vehicles, such as a self-propelled artillery unit, because retooling for the M4A3 was not a cost-effective option for them, but building a significantly different unit based on the original hull was.
In other words, the viability and cost of conversion depends heavily on what you're converting FROM and TO, as well as how versatile your production equipment is. There's no single "right" answer that covers all cases.
-
In other words, the viability and cost of conversion depends heavily on what you're converting FROM and TO, as well as how versatile your production equipment is.
I would guess this to be the case.
The Wolfhound-2 got an ERLL & DHS.
Meanwhile the PhoenixHawk-3M got Endo, XL, DHS, CASE, & Weapons
-
I would guess this to be the case.
The Wolfhound-2 got an ERLL & DHS.
Meanwhile the PhoenixHawk-3M got Endo, XL, DHS, CASE, & Weapons
Endo steel is probably the biggie there... you have to tear it all the way down to the chassis and start over from scratch
-
I'm surprised installing it can even be called a refit. What's the difference between tearing down into the very bones of a mech from building an entire new one from scratch?
-
I wonder if the great houses set up "boneyards" or depots to store battlemechs. Machines not produced by the industry of a great house could be sorted into operational and non-operational. Working battlemechs would be sent to combat units proven to use these mechs effectively, and non-operational units could be broken up into spare parts. Boneyards would also be a destination for captured enemy battlemechs that your house quartermaster corps does not support. These captured machines could be used for training, or to indemnify mercenary units for their combat losses. "Oh, you lost your scout lance? Here is a fully operational CGR-1A1 Charger for your trouble."
-
I don't want to jump into nitpicking this thread or raining on people's speculations, but two things I really feel need to be stressed:
Notes – HL:CC suggests that the Tikonov facility may have produced Thunderbolts and Vindictors, while Sarna.net suggest that at one time it may have produced the Thunderbolt, Thug, Griffin, Stinger, Bombardier, Vindicator. Clarification is need as to what it actually produced in 3025.
1. - Sarna isn't a reliable source of information on canon. If they can cite their claims back to a published source, then fine, but I've seen far too much production info on Sarna just pulled from thin air. One shouldn't assume that because Sarna disagrees with a published sourcebook that there's some ambiguity in what's going on in canon. One should assume Sarna is in error.
2. - All production lines are not equal in output. Trying to derive production output from the number of models produced is a fool's errand. Some production lines barely piece together a handful of 'Mechs a year. Some could produce nearly a hundred a year. Saying "The Combine only has one Dragon production line?!" is assuming there's some added productivity from having multiple sites to produce the same design. This couldn't be further from the truth. A single production site streamlines component sourcing. Many satellite production lines for many of the models mentioned are small-time assembly plants that produce only a handful of components locally. What they add is redundancy in case of enemy conquest, not production output.
-
I have been super interested in thinking about the diffusion of mechs throughtout the Inner Sphere. For example, one of my favorite mechs is the Catapult, but I am not a huge Capellan Confederation fan. How many Catapults are likely in service in other houses? Your list is awesome, because we can start thinking about that.
If b(i,j) is the probability of a battle between house i and house j, p(model, i) is the probability of house i using the model in battle, s is the probability of survival, and r is the probability of salvage, then b(i,j) p(model,i) s is the probability the mech survives and stays with the original house, and b(i,j) p(model, i) r is the probability the mech is recovered by the opposing house. The production tables give the flows of new units into the houses over time. If you had an initial stock of mechs for all the houses and average number of conflicts between each pair of houses per unit time, you would have a Markov chain that predicts the average flows of mechs between the major houses. If there were a
So this is a big piece of that puzzle. It is super interesting to to track down the flows of new mechs into the successor states' stocks.
-
ASF
Now the turn of the air wings.
Looking at the data, in 3025-ish there are 24 ASF being produced in the IS and periphery, in 29 planets. The production is quite spread. 7 planets produce 3 ASF each, 6 planets produce 2 ASF each, and the rest produce a single model.
The most proficient design in build up sites is the Lightning, with a whooping 7 production plants, followed by the Cheetah (5), Sabre and Thunderbird (4) and Seydlitz (3). The stingray, Eagle, Chippewa, Thrush, Hellcat and Reiver have 2 sites each. The rest have a single production site.
The Lyran Comonwealth is the top dog in production lines, with 10 of them. Each line produces a different model, so they (like other factions) have an extremely diverse air (space) force. Not good for logistics and supply, good for model selection for gaming. They produce the Sabre, Lucifer, Thunderbird, Chippewa, rapier, Eagle, Seydlitz, hellcat, Centurion and Lightning. Donegal (3: Cenurion, Sabre, Lucifer) and Tharkad (3: hellcat rapier, lighting) are the largest production centres, followed by Gibbs (2: Thunderbird, eagle). Alarion (Chippewa) and Skye (seydlitz) produce one model each.
The Capellan Confederation, has 5 models being produced in 9 production lines (3 lightning, 2 thrush, 2 cheetah, 1 transit, 1 transgressor). Saint Ives (3) and Sarna (3) are the planets with the most production facilities followed by Texlos Capella and Sian with a single line each.
The Fedsuns also has 8 production lines (9 until 3000). Each one produces a different model, so they have an extremely hodge podge air force that would be a hell for a supply expert: Stuka, Sabre, Corsair, Sparrowhawk, Eagle, Thunderbird, hellcat and Lightning. New Avalon, Axton and Panpour (3) concentrate the production (Axton produces the Centurion until 3000, after that it only has 2 lines). So they have a very diverse air force produced in concentration.
The Free worlds League also has 8 production lines. 2 in Westover and Andurien, and the others in Marik Amity and Atreus. The later 3 produce the Cheetah, while the 2 first ones produce the Stingray and Reiver. Lopez also produces the reiver. So the FWL has 3 models of ASF: Cheetah (3), reiver (3) and Stingray (2). It is the most cohesive air force in the whole Inner Spehere.
The Taurian concordat has 6 production sites churning out 5 models. 2 in Taurus (thunderbird and Lightning) and 1 in New Vandenberg (Chippewa), Sterope (Seydlitz), Organo (Sabre) and Perdition (Thunderbird).
The Draconis Combine comes last among the big players and surpassed by the taurians in production sites. It has a single line for 4 models. Chatham produces the Shilone and Lucifer II, Chuyer produces the Shalogar, and Dover builds the Slayer. Curiously there is no Sabre production in the Draconis combine after the bankruptcy of Raimei. How the ISF allowed Raimei to fall is beyond my understanding. Like the mech facilities, seems like the production centres of the Draconis Combine are few and far apart, but they are extremely efficient.
The Outworlds alliance comes next. Curiously considering their claimed air supremacy they only have 2 birds in a single location. Remora produces the Seydlitz and Lightning. This has been a let down for me. I was expecting A LOT more birds and production sites here. I suppose Remora will produce hundreds of burds per month or the stories do not seem to hold well…
The Canopians only produce the Sabre in Dunianshire. Considering that Andurien also produces Sabres and that the taurians also have them in Organo, the south of the galaxy should be teeming with that bird.
Next, dropships
-
OA is just industry poor over all.
OTOH, it is amusing to see that it has more production lines than the supposedly more powerful(and slightly more industrialised) MOC.
-
The MOC is one of the weakests powers overall (the listed ones at least). It is the last producer in both mechs and ASF. We will see tha tit also fails in the Dropship and Jumpship areas. Jumpships are major powers only, so here they put a stranglehold on the periphery, but the OA also has no dropships in production at all. Given their small ASF model selection and concentration of production I fail to see how they are the aerospace power that they are supposed to be.
-
The MOC is one of the weakests powers overall (the listed ones at least). It is the last producer in both mechs and ASF. We will see tha tit also fails in the Dropship and Jumpship areas. Jumpships are major powers only, so here they put a stranglehold on the periphery, but the OA also has no dropships in production at all. Given their small ASF model selection and concentration of production I fail to see how they are the aerospace power that they are supposed to be.
The thing is, while you may know what each location produces as far as type, we often have no idea about how many they produce. Some production centers are single production lines constructing only a half dozen units by hand each year. Some have multiple automated lines producing over 100 units a year (or even a month).
It could be that the OA produces dozens of those fighters each month, while the others are lucky to one or two out in the same time.
Not likely, but possible.
Ruger
-
Indeed. But these designs are not specially good as ASF go. Well the lightning is a good design, but the seydlitz? That is not enough to escort the lightnings. ith only these 2 they would be hard pressed to achieve air superiority without very high loses.
-
You must also remember the paradigm shifts for rules. The Seydlitz is ok though it was better under previous rules IIRC.
-
The MOC is one of the weakests powers overall (the listed ones at least). It is the last producer in both mechs and ASF. We will see tha tit also fails in the Dropship and Jumpship areas.
Really? OA produces more mechs as well? MoC produces bugs, SHD's and MAD's. By comparison OA only produces bugs and the Merlin. That last one not even until 3010(?). They end up producing Chargers as well but this isn't confirmed until 3040's at the earliest and probably not until much later.
-
The MOC is a more or less.on par with the OA. But everybody knows the OA sucks. I thought that the MOC would be better, but it is not.
-
In 3025 the MOC did not produce the Marauder. It wasn't until the Capellans invested and revitalized their industry did they add it to MMM Canopus IV. They did as otherwise mentioned make the bug mechs and the Shadow Hawk in limited numbers. That said I think it's fair to say that they likely still produced more than the OWA mechwise at least, just based on demand alone.
-
It should be remembered that the Magistracy's Star League economy was primarily focused on luxury, leisure, & medical supplies. The collapse of the Star League devastated the Magistracy's economy like no other periphery power, & they never truly recovered until joining the Trinity Alliance. Heavy manufacturing, to include military goods, was never a major focus of the Magistracy.
-
JUMPSHIPS
Jumpships is an area where the major powers reign. The periphery does not have production facilities for new jumpships.
There are a total of 10 shipyards with a total of 17 production lines. They produce 5 jumpship models (Invader, monolith, merchant, star lord, scout). The lines are in the Draconis Combine (5), Lyran Commonwealth (4) FWL and FedSuns (2), with the Capellans having a single shipyard in Capella. Here is the first time where we see the Dracs leading a production ranking. So it might be that they can relocate their forces better than the others instead of having more of them. Who knows? :)
The main production centres are Chatham (4), Alarion (3) Capella and Delawan (2) and then Panpour, Tamarind, Schuyer, Gibbs, Clipperton and Loyalty have 1 jumpship line each.
The most common models being produced are the Invader and Monolith (4), followed by the merchant, star lord and scout (3). The Invader is produced by all major factions except the Capellans. The Monolith is not produced by the FWL. The Merchant is produced by the CC, LC and DC. The massive Star Lord finds builders in the DC, FWL and FedSuns. And finally, the scout is produced by the Dracs, Lyrans and FWL.
The Draconis Combine centres its production of 5 jumpships in the 4 lines at Chatham: Star Lord, Monolith, Invader and Merchant. They build the Scout at Schuyer. They are the only faction to build all jumpship models.
The Lyran Commonwealth produces 3 models in Alarion (Invader, Scout and Monolith) and the Merchant in Gibbs.
The FWL produce their jumpships in single lines. Clipperton (Scout), Tamarind (Invader) and Loyalty (Star Lord).
The Fedsuns produce the Star Lord and Invader in Delavan, while Panpour makes Monoliths.
The Capellans produce in Capella both the Merchant and Monolith.
No faction produces a jumpship in more than one location. No faction has more than 5 lines. Jumpships *are* rare. Thr Periphery cannot make new jumpships at all.
-
The only thing I'd point out is I'm pretty sure the DC was not making the Monolith in 3025 per JS&DS
The Monolith line didn't show up till I believe 3055 with Objective Raids, IIRC.
My own head canon for that reason is the Helm Core allowed them to bring it back on line.
-
Wasn't it Star's End (in the Periphery) that could "assemble" a JumpShip if provided the parts? ???
-
True. I guess the original source lists production sites. Or it just missed that one
-
Exaggeration. It was not a JS production site.
-
I didn't claim it was... ???
-
It wasn't an assembly site either. Or not much of one.
-
Do you have a reference that answers the question I asked?
-
One that I really shouldn't share. (concerning Star's End)
-
Well, the Sarna article uses very close to the exact language I did...
-
Note the in WWII, production of the M4A1 Sherman tank was not significantly delayed by upgrading to the M4A2 (over 90% of the parts were interchangeable), but the M4A3 utilized a welded hull instead of the previous cast hull, and in most instances production had to be moved to new facilities or even new manufacturing companies. Several of the existing facilities continued to produce the welded hulls in lower volume for support vehicles, such as a self-propelled artillery unit, because retooling for the M4A3 was not a cost-effective option for them, but building a significantly different unit based on the original hull was.
Your example here is flawed. The reason why there were so many variants of the SHerman wasn't because one was upgraded to another, but due to the desire for the US to fully exploit the industrial capacity of the US. The M4A1 was not an upgrade of the M4. The only reason the M4 existed at all was because not all the factories could produce the cast armor of the -A1 which is what the Army really wanted. In addition the -A2, -A3 & -A4 were produced all roughly in paralel & differed chiefly in powerplants (the -A4 had a slightly longer hull to accommodate the Chrysler Multibank engine). The other factories did not stop producing gun-tanks, or produce chiefly hulls for support vehicles because they were "obsolete" but because of a shift in what the Army really wanted (the Ford GAA engine in the -A3 outperformed the Wright Radial in the M4 & M4A1, for example). But the point is that the manufacturing process for SHermans was dictated by fully expoiting existing capacity, not because one design was that much better than the other (IIRC the -A3 was in production longer than the -A1, & was selected as tge front-line SHerman that survived the post war Active Army inventory).
Back to mechs, one thing I have always had in my head-cannon is that the manufacturing sites listed are the ones that build those designs regularly, from top to bottom. The various factories that produce spare parts are not listed. So lets say the COmbine wants a dozen more Shads. Rather than retool a factory to produce those dozen Shads, they hand assemble the mechs in small batch runs from the spares inventories. With really common mechs like the SHad, the spares inventories in each house is probably broad & deep, so such things can happen from time to time. I also agree that there are probably plenty of boneyards, where derelict mechs are stripped of parts, or in some cases completely refurbished.
The situation with the FWL has an impact on later production capacity too. From what I have seen, the FWL decided to keep a large number of lines open, but at low capacity, rather than scrap them completely. SO when the Helm core gave them the know how, they could rapidly refurbish, repair, & restore those old production lines & start churning out mechs. This is what gave them the production capacity during the Clan invasion that the other powers took advantage of.
Damon.