Upcoming Price Increase & Changes to Archive

[Weirdo]

You do know that IWM has little to no part in the plastics, right? All the ones we've gotten lately have been all Catalyst.

[GRUD]

You do know that IWM has little to no part in the plastics, right? All the ones we've gotten lately have been all Catalyst.

Yet we still see people posting, wanting IWM to go under by switching to plastics. 

[beachhead1985]

Yet we still see people posting, wanting IWM to go under by switching to plastics.

Inevitably, it's going to happen, unless the economics change around enough that metal becomes more viable again. As it; it's a march towards pricing metal wargaming minis out of the market.

Every time the prices have to hike, and I know they have to; a few more fans decide they have enough metal crack, a few more diehards find it easier to choose *not to* buy that new release and a few more potential players decide the game is too expensive to get into.

Thankfully, we have IWM as true supporters of the game, doing all they can and Games Workshop making everyone else look like saints by comparison.

Rain on the plastics if you wish and by all means; have your opinion; it is a valid one, but the AS boxed sets are a great draw for the game for new players.

I only wish I could mix and match my own lances and order them from Battlecorps, or whatever.

[GRUD]

I don't "Hate" the plastics, as those that like them seem to Hate the Metal minis.  I can simply see the REALITY that IWM switching to all plastics would Bankrupt them rather than Strengthening them.  I've got every box set back to BattleDroids, and I agree that the minis in the latest one DO look Very Nice.  However, even though I'm more of a Collector than a painter or player, I still prefer the heft and detail of the Metal minis.  I'm not throwing away or selling my plastics, but I"m not buying the AS Lance Packs either.  I'm actually FINE with the two co-existing!  It seems to ME that more people in the "Plastics Camp" want all the Metal minis to go away, than those in the "Metal Camp" want to see the halt of plastics.   :-\

[NeonKnight]

I don't "Hate" the plastics, as those that like them seem to Hate the Metal minis.  **SNIP** It seems to ME that more people in the "Plastics Camp" want all the Metal minis to go away, than those in the "Metal Camp" want to see the halt of plastics.   :-\

Well...put me in the I Like Plastic, I Like metal camp. Personally, I DON'T care, as long as I can get it.

Example, I wanted/needed a couple of ocelot minis for a game, but they were prior to this month, and ARCHIVE mini, and (again, prior to recently) with an archive fee of +$8 to get the mini meant, yeah, not gonna pay $12 or so for the mini PLUS $8 to have the privilege to get the mini.

Even now, with the archive fee removed, it would still mean a 2 month wait to get the mini, so I need to start looking months in advance to plan out games to ensure I have the mini.

If Plastics means faster turn-around time, etc to get a mini, OK, but as far as what medium they are built in? Don't care, they could be carved, decorative Bathroom Soap for all I car, as long as they are easy to get my hands on.

[worktroll]

Plastics mean up-front even more delays in getting minis. Short form:

- metals are relatively quick up-front (a couple of months is relatively quick), relatively low setup costs (order of $1K or so), higher production costs.
- plastics are longer up-front, with high initial setup costs ($10K-$100K, depending). Once paid, though, production costs are low, but you then have to recoup those massive up-front costs.

IWM specialise in making metal minis, and do more of their business producing for other companies (including many other game companies). Note that Bones (Reaper's substitute for metal) requires plastics-type up-front costs also.

W.

[RoundTop]

The reason why is cost and volume.

http://www.core77.com/posts/24419/Production-Methods-Spin-Casting-a-Low-Cost-Low-Run-Alternative-to-Injection-Molding

Basically: Injection molded plastic with a high detail (requiring better molds and plastics) costs a LOT in terms of the molds and machines needed for it.

Spin-cast pewter (what IWM does) is much cheaper (by a substantial amount) for low run figures and machines needed.

Basically (numbers are somewhat made up):

Plastic:
Mold: $10,000
Machinery to use the mold: $100,000
Cost per unit in plastic: $0.20

Pewter:
Mold: $300
Machinery to use the mold: $10,000
Cost per unit in metal: $5

So you can see that the more you make, the cheaper plastic gets, but it has a high initial startup cost. That is why when CGL has made plastic, a) it gets done in China (machinery used for numerous things), and b) it is limited designs that don't have a lot of complex parts.

This is also why IWM doesn't do plastics. Look at the sponsor a mech thread... with something like $400 they are willing to make a design. They can break even on the mold within a fairly small time frame, even if they only sell a couple hundred. For plastic to make sense you have to be in the 1,000s figures.

Anyways, hopefully this provides some insight.

[GRUD]

THANK YOU to both worktroll and RoundTop!  O0


Now to get that information out to everyone that insists that plastics are the way that IWM "MUST" go to for the future.  ::)

[beachhead1985]

Inevitably, it's going to happen, unless the economics change around enough that metal becomes more viable again. As it; it's a march towards pricing metal wargaming minis out of the market.

Every time the prices have to hike, and I know they have to; a few more fans decide they have enough metal crack, a few more diehards find it easier to choose *not to* buy that new release and a few more potential players decide the game is too expensive to get into.

Thankfully, we have IWM as true supporters of the game, doing all they can and Games Workshop making everyone else look like saints by comparison.

Rain on the plastics if you wish and by all means; have your opinion; it is a valid one, but the AS boxed sets are a great draw for the game for new players.

I only wish I could mix and match my own lances and order them from Battlecorps, or whatever.

I think my points are all still pretty valid.

I'm actually aware that IWM doesn't do the plastics and I actually quite like metal.

[pheonixstorm]

Basically (numbers are somewhat made up):

Plastic:
Mold: $10,000
Machinery to use the mold: $100,000
Cost per unit in plastic: $0.20

Pewter:
Mold: $300
Machinery to use the mold: $10,000
Cost per unit in metal: $5

While the pewter costs may be fairly accurate the cost for plastics is more on the high end.

The injection machine could be anywhere between 20-250k or more. It really depends on the machine needed and how automated you want the entire process. This goes for the mold as well. The cost of the mold itself can vary widely as well. I remember at a plastics company I temped at the molds cost between 2k-25k depending on size and complexity.

Another factor is how much the mold will create. For BT minis like those from the intro box I am pretty sure the entire box can be done with a single mold. So based on that, and that it is probably automated, you can figure one run roughly every 5-10 minutes. Run for a day (and no mishaps) gets you 144 box sets worth of minis per day.

For the most basic setup I would say the statup could be somewhere around 30-40k for machine and mold. But then... where do you put such a machine. For those who haven't seen one they can be the size of a compact car or a semi. Does IWM even have the space for one?

Upside though? One machine many molds. New 3D sculpt of a hot design? Mold it and run for a few days then switch back to a regular production mold with 24-96 unique designs.

If IWM decide to go with the cheapest machine/mold it would have to be a mold with the highest volume minis of ALL their designs, not just BT to work. Then again, with out any type of sales figures for their top minis (BT or otherwise) its hard to even speculate if it is viable.

[cavingjan]

Items that were in the archive were there because they sold less than 6 per year.

Plastics can work but there would need to be a fundamental change in the number of different minis made.

[sadlerbw]

I think that 3D printing may eventually provide some interesting options for IWM, but currently the price of machines that would give similar resolution to the casting process and materials costs probably don't make sense. It might eventually provide a way to deal with 'archived' minis by offering them as on-demand prints rather than keeping a stock or having to run another set of casts when you run out of pieces. However, I don't think we are all that close to that being an option yet given the price you pay for the kind of detail we can get with cast metal.

In general, I like plastic. The lighter weight seems to make the more resistant to damage when being dropped. They are easier to cut up and modify. You can get away with much less pinning, which I despise. The weight of metal feels nice, but I'm totally fine with using plastic instead. However, with the huge variety of units available, I don't see plastic taking over any time soon.

Anyway, back to the original topic. I put in my first order for a pile of archived stuff last week. There is a pile of classic Davion aero, 3055/3060 IS mechs and some classic omnis headed my way soon. Now all I have to do is remember to put the stupid feet on the right way around when the Nova gets here. I always seem to get those things on backwards!

[mike19k]

Items that were in the archive were there because they sold less than 6 per year.

Plastics can work but there would need to be a fundamental change in the number of different minis made.

I have heard this, but I think it must be six times per year. I bought eight Fox Corvettes myself a couple months before it went into archive, so it is not just six per year. (It had not been announced it was going either)

[cavingjan]

That wouldn't surprise me either. I have no doubt that some of our minis don't break the 1000 unit mark. Others will sell extremely well.

In a perfect world, we would probably only have a few omni chassis and different arms/weapons to go on them and plastics would not only be viable but preferred. In a perfect world, we also would have everything under a single company.

[worktroll]

In general, I like plastic. ... They are easier to cut up and modify.

Oh great Ghu yes! I reposed a plastic Charger - 3 minutes. A Dragon - moved both arms, made one leg in motion, torso twisted - in five. Heck, I'd never try gouging the AC barrel out of a metal Hunchback. Etc, etc, etc.

If they just had a few more light-end 'Mechs in the lance packs, I'd be in heaven. Buy the plastics for bulk, then the metals for more rare designs. As it is, I do worry about recon lances made up of Clints, Assassins, Hermes IIs, and Cicadas ;)

[I am Belch II]

I've always wondered how many mech minis are sold every year.

[JadeHellbringer]

Oh great Ghu yes! I reposed a plastic Charger - 3 minutes. A Dragon - moved both arms, made one leg in motion, torso twisted - in five. Heck, I'd never try gouging the AC barrel out of a metal Hunchback. Etc, etc, etc.

If they just had a few more light-end 'Mechs in the lance packs, I'd be in heaven. Buy the plastics for bulk, then the metals for more rare designs. As it is, I do worry about recon lances made up of Clints, Assassins, Hermes IIs, and Cicadas ;)

You're suggesting a pack made up of, say, (once the new sculpts are out) Wasps, Stingers, Locusts, and... er, something else along those lines?

[cavingjan]

Valk?

[JadeHellbringer]

Valk?

You win.  O0

[RoundTop]

How about the "You can't sue us anymore HG" pack.

Stinger, Wasp, Pheonix Hawk, Archer

:)

[pheonixstorm]

No that would be Wasp, Stinger, Valkyrie, P. Hawk (or Ostscout) for a light pack.

[worktroll]

You're suggesting a pack made up of, say, (once the new sculpts are out) Wasps, Stingers, Locusts, and... er, something else along those lines?

Oh great Ghu yes. Remember the days where weight ratios used to be 30% light, 40% medium, 20% heavy, 10% assault? An average company should then be 3-4 light, 4-5 medium, 2-3 heavy and 1-2 assault. As it is, I end up with 1-2 light, 4-5 medium, 4-5 heavy and 2-3 assaults when basing off the plastics for my company builds. I've been lucky enough to have enough 3rd Ed plastics to bulk up my Bug Mech ratios, but otherwise I end up using my hobby budget to bulk up the low end usually.

Admittedly, in classic 1x2 map play there's not much point fielding the average light 'Mech unless it's a 35-tonner. But
a) I'm one of those weird people who builds units for in-universe flavour, and
b) Alpha Strike suddenly gives lights a reason to be played again.

All IMHO, of course; and like I keep saying, the ease of reposing & modding plastics is (and I use this after consideration) divine!

What I don't want to see is a "reprint" of the old FASA lance packs - Wasp, Stinger, Phoenix Hawk & Rifleman. I'd cope with Stinger, Wasp, Locust & Phoenix Hawk, but yes getting a  Valkyrie back out there would be wonderful. I think we can let the Ostscout stay a specialised unit in metal ;)

[Paladin1]

How about the "You can't sue us anymore HG" pack.

Stinger, Wasp, Pheonix Hawk, Archer

:)

Followed quickly by the "Bugger off HG" Pack, with a Marauder, Warhammer, Crusader and Rifleman.

[pheonixstorm]

Followed by the "I keels it wit my battleship" pack of two Marauder IIs and two Longbows

[Feenix74]

How about the "You can't sue us anymore HG" pack.

Stinger, Wasp, Pheonix Hawk, Archer

:)

Followed quickly by the "Bugger off HG" Pack, with a Marauder, Warhammer, Crusader and Rifleman.

I love it.

If this is not canonised by CGL and/or IWM, may I please have your permission to use these ideas in my ebay store for unofficial lance pack offerings?  >:D

[Scotty]

May I suggest not deliberately antagonizing a company that, despite popular fan perception, has never actually done anything malicious toward BattleTech? O:-)

[Fletch]

I now have a vision of 8 mechs flipping the bird at once.

[Paladin1]

I love it.

If this is not canonised by CGL and/or IWM, may I please have your permission to use these ideas in my ebay store for unofficial lance pack offerings?  >:D

You don't need my permission to stick it to HG, just make sure to twist the knife when you do it!

[Miz Anna]

May I suggest not deliberately antagonizing a company that, despite popular fan perception, has never actually done anything malicious toward BattleTech? O:-)

Plus, a wargamer should be able to recognize which hills are worth dying on, and which may not be.

Negative marketing is usually not a plus for anyone, anyway. I'd prefer something like a "Nasty's Back!" logo with Wolf's Dragoons & a Black Widow  on a lance of iconic 'Mechs.

[RoundTop]

Bugs!

"The only good bug is a dead bug"
Stinger, Wasp, Locust, Exterminator

Birds!

Pheonix Hawk, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Falconer

Demons!

Cerberus, Yen lo Wang, Akuma, Crusader

Demigods!

Orion, Hercules, Perseus, Archer