TDR-5S Thunderbolt vs CRD-3R Crusader, fight!

[Neufeld]

I started to think about this old MegaMek scenario where a TDR-5S Thunderbolt clashes with a CRD-3R Crusader.

So, I am trying to analyze the ideal strategies for each mech and the most likely winner. Now, I know that most will say that the Thunderbolt will win due to it being more popular than the Crusader, but it is really so?

Let us take a look, at the strong/weak points of each mech.

Thunderbolt:
+ Stronger leg armor
+ Better sinked
+ Has a hole puncher
+ Better crit placement
+ Better in physical combat
- Harder to empty ammo bins
- Weaker long-range fire power
- Worse at crit-seeking

Crusader:
+ Better at crit-seeking
+ Better long-range fire power
+ Easier to empty ammo bins
- Weaker leg armor
- Less heat sinks
- No hole puncher
- Torso bombs
- All weapons in arms & legs

Next, which range brackets favor which mech:
16+ Crusader: Two LRM 15s versus one
15 Thunderbolt: Adding in the large laser gives the Thunderbolt a slight favor
11-14 Crusader: Now the LRMs are at medium while the laser is at long.
10 Thunderbolt: As above, the large laser gains its medium bracket.
8-9 Thunderbolt: As above, but the Thunderbolt might throw in a short range weapon.
7 Crusader: The LRMs are at short now.
4-6 Crusader?: Everyone switches out the LRMs to the medium lasers and SRMs. The Thunderbolt is likely to switch to LL+3ML, while the Crusader does 2SRM+ML, which should be about 17 vs 21 in favor of the Crusader.
2-3: Crusader?: As above, but with machine guns added in.
1: Thunderbolt: The Crusader has problems with doing physical attacks and firing weapons, while the Thunderbolt manages much better.

So, it seems that the idea strategy for the Crusader is to hang back while emptying the LRM bins, and then close in to use the SRMs, while the Thunderbolt either want to hang out at 8-10 hexes or get real close for physicals.

So, who will win?

BTW, this scenario is a good one to learn heat management. First time I played it went: 'Seems like I a have gained an advantage, lets press it home' **BOOM** - ammo cooks off on my Thunderbolt.

[markhall]

From my own Experiences I'd put my money on the T-Bolt every time.

But it really depends on the folks running it and the dice on the day.
You could run the game a 100 times and while times will be similar.
There is no reason why it couldn't go to ether side as neither has a real advantage over the other.

[Marwynn]

Ooh, interesting match-up. I've had these two square off more than once. It may be my knack for sucking with LRM rolls but the T-bolt always came out on top at the end by a small margin. The CRD-3R is one dangerous 'Mech at any range, but as you said it lacks a true "hole puncher".

I'd call it even. Too much is up to the hit locations of the LRMs and how tight the groupings are.

[LastChanceCav]

I think the more reliable hole-puncher and better heat dissipation on the T-bolt will give it the advantage in the long run. The CRD can only fire those LRMs and run for 2 turns before it starts to pile on heat effects, and then it also cedes maneuverability to the T-bolt and is a goner.

Cheers,
LCC

[Demon55]

Both mechs have too much ammo and in my experience the Crusader is a walking bomb.  I have hardly used the T-bolt, but would give it the edge as it will have more punch when it runs out of ammunition as it has 3ML and a LL vs the Crusaders 2ML.

[markhall]

Be a heck of a game if the Thunderbolt managed to run out of SRM Ammo.  ;D

[RGCavScout]

I have to go with the Thunderbolt.  The large laser dishes out more concentrated damage and the T-bolt can ride a slightly better heat curve; but I am sure that it will generally be a close run affair.

[FedSunsBorn]

Terrain and piloting skill can change any fight but I would definitely have to go with the good ol' T-Bolt.

[evilauthor]

Wait, doesn't this scenario come with each side having a bug mech sidekick? Don't they change the complexion of the game somewhat?

[Deadborder]

Going with the trend here and siding with the T-Bolt. While the Crusader does have a better punch at the longest ranges, the equal speed profiles means that, unless terrain is really favouring, the T-Bolt will close down the distance a lot more readily then the Crusader can back up. As the range closes, the T-Bolt gains in both overall damage and reliability over the Crusader with its lasers coming to play.

Endurance also tends to favour the T-Bolt. Whiel it does have a one-ton armour advantage, that's largely irrelivant overall. However, its far better heat dissapation (The T-Bolt can stagger-fire far better then the Crusader can) will quickly turn the battle to its favour. Finally, while its unlikely that the battle will reach "ammo starvation" levels, the T-Bolt has a far better ability to soak crits then the Crusader; the only crits in the CRD's side torso are its LRM ammo, while the free room in its CT are SRM and MG ammo. Of course, if the CRD decides to empty one LRM ammo bin first (smart move) it also leave it vunerable to CT crits.

All up, I'll give it to the T-Bolt. I'm not going to call it a certainty, and I'm not going to say it's an east fight, but generrally the 'bolt will win more often then not.

[Neufeld]

Wait, doesn't this scenario come with each side having a bug mech sidekick? Don't they change the complexion of the game somewhat?

No, you are thinking about the first one with Griffin and Wasp versus Wolverine and Stinger. This one has one mech on each side.

[Reaver]

Crusaders and T-bolts have different mission profiles, a fact that puts Crusaders at a disadvantage in a 1-on-1 fight.  Crusaders are fire support/combat support vehicles that supplement a line cracker like an Orion, Awesome or T-bolt by pummeling opposing mechs as they go in and crit-seeking once they get in close.  T-bolts are, as mentioned, general mission mechs typically used to breach an enemy line and hold it open.  The consequence of those different profiles is that in a one on one fight, the Crusader is at a disadvantage because of its inability to single-handedly punch open holes in enemy armor.  They can only sandblast armor down, which works only on designs with less armor than the Crusader or T-bolt.  Against a Champion, I'd expect the Crusader to win, but not the 'bolt.

[House Davie Merc]

T-Bolt .

There's another factor on the T-Bolt's side that the OP didn't include .

You can't torso twist the SRM-6s on the Crusader .

If the T-Bolt manages to get into the Crusader's side arc then those
leg mounted SRMs are out of the fight .

If the T-Bolt manages to get in a side arc at a range of 1 the Crusader will have
a choice between firing it's arm mounted weapons or a physical attack while
the T-Bolt can do both .
If  the Crusader still has any LRM ammo then a side crit means death .

Also if the Crusader is behind something that blocks LOS at level 1
(like a hill or building) then it also can't fire it's SRMs .


I just wish there was a canon Thunderbolt that had both the LRM-15
AND a PPC .
That would be Nervana for me .

[worktroll]

Got to join the Tbolt appreciation society. Based primarily on the Crusader's torso bombs, and the Tbolt's better crit soaking capability. You can call the Crusader many things, but "Zombie" isn't often one of them.

W.

[HavocTheWarDog]

Played right, the Tbolt everytime just for longevity of the energy weapons!

[Force of Nature]

Thunderbolt for the win.

Force

[Wrangler]

I'm with the rest, T-Bolt is a tough and reliable 'Mech for worth.

Crusader, is unit that needs supporting elements to to draw fire away from its explosive personality err sides.

[Oddball]

Crusaders and T-bolts have different mission profiles, a fact that puts Crusaders at a disadvantage in a 1-on-1 fight.  Crusaders are fire support/combat support vehicles that supplement a line cracker like an Orion, Awesome or T-bolt by pummeling opposing mechs as they go in and crit-seeking once they get in close.  T-bolts are, as mentioned, general mission mechs typically used to breach an enemy line and hold it open.  The consequence of those different profiles is that in a one on one fight, the Crusader is at a disadvantage because of its inability to single-handedly punch open holes in enemy armor.  They can only sandblast armor down, which works only on designs with less armor than the Crusader or T-bolt.  Against a Champion, I'd expect the Crusader to win, but not the 'bolt.

Given their different mission profiles, maybe the better (or more fair to the Crusader) scenario would be a battle between a lance of four Tbolts vs a lance of three Tbolts and one Crusader.  Which lance comes out on top?  Does swapping out a Tbolt for a Crusader in the second lance give it an advantage? Theoretically, it should, or else what is the point of a fire-support mech, but honestly I have no idea if it would in practice. 

[Aajav-Khan]

 Thunderbolt. The Crusader is a walking bomb that lacks a concentrated punch.

[Diamondshark]

The Crusader packs a LOT more firepower for a couple turns, but if the Thunderbolt can survive that, the Crusader packs less firepower than a Firestarter. 

[massey]

Moving the Crusader's ammo to the arms would even the fight considerably.  It keeps a side torso crit from being instant death.  Still, the Thunderbolt has the advantage in a one-on-one fight.  Get inside of 6 and most of the Crusader's firepower goes to waste.

[Neufeld]

I think that the Crusader's torso bomb situation is not that much of a problem on 1 vs 1, since the lack of concentration of fire means that the LRM ammo bins will run low when the armor gets thin. On the other hand, the large laser and heat sinks on the Thunderbolt will be more of a deciding factor.

[Minemech]

You could aloways use inferno ammo. The only nuissance with that is that the mech only has 1 ton of SRM ammo.

[Downslide]

For grins (and since I was on a terribly useless conference call at work that amounted to a total waste of time) I just ran it thru the latest release of Megamek.

The battle took a grand total of 27 minutes  -- minus 5 minutes-ish where I was involved in the call.

Drumroll please?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
The Bot controlled Thunderbolt TDR-5S beat my Crusader CRD-3R.

The caveat would be the luck (or lack thereof) of my piloting skill rolls.

The short version?  I stayed in lvl1 water until I had only 3 reloads left of LRM. I closed to 7 hexes, and tossed a few turns of srm/ml/lrm.

I did some decent damage, had a few rounds of dishing it out and not taking any, but at medium range, he hit me for 20+, including a crit on my LRM Ammo box (luckily the round AFTER I emptied it). I blew my piloting roll, already having a damage pt to my pilot for a head shot I took. she took another point in the process of trying to get up and failing TWICE. She pretty much tripped the CRD-3R into losing an arm, then blowing up the engine.

15 rounds. Game Over.

if anyone wants to see the log, I can post it.

[Morpheus1975]

What about a CRD-5K vs a TDR-9M?

or better yet a

CRD-7W vs TDR-11SE too bad there is no CDR with a light FE

[Neufeld]

What about a CRD-5K vs a TDR-9M?

or better yet a

CRD-7W vs TDR-11SE too bad there is no CDR with a light FE

Both would probably result in a dead Crusader, and be much more uneven than TDR-5S vs CRD-3R in favor of the Thunderbolt unless you adjust pilot skill to make the BV more even.
In the TDR-5S vs CRD-3R we had 1335 vs 1317 BV, quite even.

TDR-9M vs CRD-5K - 1648 vs 1463 BV.
This puts a long-range SFE cool running mech, against a short-range MRM armed heat-hog with XL engine.

TDR-11SE vs CRD-7W - 1754 vs 1221 BV.
This puts LFE 4/6/6, Snubbie + Tarcomp and ECM versus XLFE, XL gyro 4/6/0 with Artemis equipped MMLs.

I would say the first one is winnable for the Crusader if it manages to corner the Thunderbolt, in the second one the Crusader needs both luck and much better skill to have a chance at all.

[Morpheus1975]

Problem is not the CRD but the fact that it has no decent canon designs.  It should be an even fight for the two but the designs are just bad on the CRD. 

Too bad HMP is not up to spec on the new technologies or we could make some decent variants of the CRD.  The CRD-8S would have a decent chance but with the complete alteration in weapons and the addition of a HGR I don't consider it a CRD anymore.

I hate it when the variants are so wild as to basically turn a mech into something completely different.

[Beukeboom Fan]

I think that the Crusader's torso bomb situation is not that much of a problem on 1 vs 1, since the lack of concentration of fire means that the LRM ammo bins will run low when the armor gets thin. On the other hand, the large laser and heat sinks on the Thunderbolt will be more of a deciding factor.

Agree with this 100%.  You've only got 8 rounds for each LRM 15, and unless the terrain is REALLY tight the Crusader should be able to keep the range open enough to fire through those before the ammo becomes an issue.

I think it depends a lot on skill of the players and who wins initiative.   If the CRU player is better and can stay in the 11-14 range bracket as it fires through it's LRM's, and then can close to within range 6 - it's got a chance.  That's a lot of if's though.  The T-Bolt definetely is the more forgiving mech, and should win even more often than not.

I would say that I think the CRU-3D would have a better shot.  Drops the MG's, and reduces the SRM6's to SRM4's and adds 4 HS's.   Still undergunned, but depending how lucky/good you are with the LRM's - it's got much better sustainable firepower at short range.

[Blacksheep]

I dunno, in my experience the Thunderbolt has always underperformed because of its anemic firepower while the Crusader is a personal favorite due to its immense firepower when managed correctly.

[Reaver]

Problem is not the CRD but the fact that it has no decent canon designs.  It should be an even fight for the two but the designs are just bad on the CRD. 

Too bad HMP is not up to spec on the new technologies or we could make some decent variants of the CRD.  The CRD-8S would have a decent chance but with the complete alteration in weapons and the addition of a HGR I don't consider it a CRD anymore.

I hate it when the variants are so wild as to basically turn a mech into something completely different.

There's nothing wrong with the Crusader designs.  It just isn't a mech that's designed to slug it out 1-on-1 with a heavily-armored beast like the Tbolt.  It would have the same problem with an Orion.  It's designed to work with other mechs.  A Crusader working with a Tbolt (or if you're a fan of the BoK trilogy, a Crusader working with a Victor) will be more effective as a matched pair than two T-bolts or two Victors working on their own. 

[Akalabeth]

I don't like those torso bombs either, so I'd vote for the T-Bolt.

However maybe the CRD-3L? Less vulnerable to ammo crits

[Morpheus1975]

There's nothing wrong with the Crusader designs.  It just isn't a mech that's designed to slug it out 1-on-1 with a heavily-armored beast like the Tbolt.  It would have the same problem with an Orion.  It's designed to work with other mechs.  A Crusader working with a Tbolt (or if you're a fan of the BoK trilogy, a Crusader working with a Victor) will be more effective as a matched pair than two T-bolts or two Victors working on their own.

I disagree here on this point.  The CRD is a great all around mech that can cover numerous firing brackets with the weapons that it has.  I don't think its a design purely meant to back up others.  With all the variants there are none that would be a proper challenge for a thunderbolt head to head.  Them both having the same tonnage and typically the same speed means that they have the same amount of tonnage for weapons and armor.  The problem then is with the loadouts that each of the CRD variants has.

[Dave Talley]

the crud could be a decent mech if they had put the LRMs and SRMs
and the ammo in the torsos
leave the lasers and mgs in the arms
I realize it was based on an anime mech but common sense should have kicked in

[Spheroid]

the Thunderbolt has always underperformed because of its anemic firepower

That is an extremely humorous(wrong) statement and would only be taken at face value by an assault mechwarrior.

[Blacksheep]

That is an extremely humorous(wrong) statement and would only be taken at face value by an assault mechwarrior.

Only when taken out of context as I clearly stated "...in my experience..."  Meaning, on paper, the Thunderbolt seems to have a winning combination of armor, firepower, and speed (for a Heavy), but it just regularly failed to accomplish much in our campaigns...  When you really look at the standard L1 model, the SRMs and MGs just scatter superficial damage around as does the single LRM 15 at the usual five and four point increments, on average.  Then you have the three MLs and the HL.  I regularly witnessed the T-Bolt sand dusting opposing mechs with its varied firepower while consistantly failing to actually put anything down.  YM (and die rolls) MV, of course.

[Reaver]

I disagree here on this point.  The CRD is a great all around mech that can cover numerous firing brackets with the weapons that it has.  I don't think its a design purely meant to back up others.  With all the variants there are none that would be a proper challenge for a thunderbolt head to head.  Them both having the same tonnage and typically the same speed means that they have the same amount of tonnage for weapons and armor.  The problem then is with the loadouts that each of the CRD variants has.

I think my point was that not being a proper challenge for a Thunderbolt head to head isn't really a design flaw.  Simply put, of the two ways of evaluating a mech:  mission profile (what it can do) or simply having the two slug it out, the former is much better than the latter.  There are lots of things that the Crusader can do, like replace a lost Archer, lay down Thunder minefields and attack strafing aerospace fighters, that the Thunderbolt can't do nearly as well.  By the same token, playing the "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle" routine works much better with a Thunderbolt than a Crusader.  The fact that a Crusader can't do one job as well doesn't mean it's worthless.  Further, a Phoenix Hawk usually beats a Vindicator in a one-on-one fight, but that doesn't stop Vindicators from being extremely handy in a lot of situations, and from taking on other mechs like the Enforcer on more or less even terms.  Judging the Vindicator by its ability to fight one-on-one, then, seems a flawed method of testing the design.

[Demon55]

The SRMs in the Crusader's legs as always been a design flaw to me.

[Diamondshark]

The Thunderbolt is a much more enduring machine, which means that obviously the Crusader will win with a glancing blow from a ML, which scores a double TAC to the gyro.  :D

[Demos]

I'm a Crusader fan, but the question, who will win the fight, depends on the game:

In a conventianal fight at the table IMO the chances are even between both designs (BTW, whta 'walking bomb'? 8 reounds per launcher and 15 for 2 SRM lanucher are hardly a walking bomb).

In MM fights the TBOlt win more likely because of more and sustained firepower. In MM fights , which tends to be longer (more turns) the CRD will run out of ammo shortly.
The TBolt have the chance for chance shots with the LL.

[Akalabeth]

I'm a Crusader fan, but the question, who will win the fight, depends on the game:

In a conventianal fight at the table IMO the chances are even between both designs (BTW, whta 'walking bomb'? 8 reounds per launcher and 15 for 2 SRM lanucher are hardly a walking bomb).

The problem is not the fact it has ammunition. The problem is that it has NOTHING BUT ammunition in the side torsos. Any hit will trigger an ammo explosion. The ammo would be better off in the arms with the launchers, even if it transferred any crits to the CT. An engine hit is better than an expanding cloud of debris.

[Beukeboom Fan]

The problem is not the fact it has ammunition. The problem is that it has NOTHING BUT ammunition in the side torsos. Any hit will trigger an ammo explosion. The ammo would be better off in the arms with the launchers, even if it transferred any crits to the CT. An engine hit is better than an expanding cloud of debris.

I think Demos understand's your point.  His point is that it's highly unlikely that a Thunderbolt will be able to penetrate the side torso's before most of the ammo is fired back.  The T-bolt is likely going to be returning the favor and sandblasting the CRU's armor.  Obviously, the LL will help a little - but it's definetely on the lower end for hole punching.

Like several people have said - in a larger battle the ability to concentrate firepower on prime targets (the high firepower/lightly armored or poorly critical placement mechs) makes the CRU much more susceptible to cooking off.  It's very possible that depending on luck and the CRU's ability to keep the range outside of 10 - that the LRM ammo will be gone before the side torso armor is.

[Akalabeth]

I think it's going to be very difficult to keep the range open against an opponent who can match your speed and has better mobility (jump jets). Especially when the Crusader overheats when it moves and fires, which will either slow it down, or slow down the depletion of its ammunition.

[Neufeld]

I think it's going to be very difficult to keep the range open against an opponent who can match your speed and has better mobility (jump jets). Especially when the Crusader overheats when it moves and fires, which will either slow it down, or slow down the depletion of its ammunition.

The TDR-5S lacks jump-jets.

[Akalabeth]

The TDR-5S lacks jump-jets.

Well, either way, the Thunderbolt can simply run at the Crusader. The Crusader will at best be able to either back up, or run away and turn back to torso twist and fire. Either way, it's moving slower than the Thunderbolt.

[A. Lurker]

Another (minor) point: Let's say the CRD does run out of LRM ammo before its side torso armor is breached; it only has enough for eight salvos per launcher, after all, so that could certainly happen. What does that mean, though? That it can no longer fire its big LRM racks at the TDR (which probably has the armor to have weathered the attacks so far without too much going internal) while the latter still has weapons remaining that can pick at the Crusader from beyond nine hexes, terrain permitting. So, it seems to me that that's just trading one drawback for another.

(For the record, I'd also take the Thunderbolt for that duel, hands down. But then I'm a bit irrationally fond of that classic design in the first place. :) )

[blackjack]

Crusader fan here.. Played out 3R several times against Tbolt... sad to say it was the tbolt that was victiorious 75%  of the time. Had better luck with the Davion & Liao versions. Jump jets came in handy.

[Kovax]

One significant advantage that the "Thud" has over the "Crud" is that the CRD has the SRMs leg-mounted.  I've managed to get a TDR past a CRD's front arc on a number of occasions, and that leaves just arm and torso weapons for both 'Mechs.  The TDR isn't quick enough to reach the rear arc, but a side arc spot limits the CRD to just the pair of MLs and MGs (which then rules out physicals), while the TDR can bring its full complement to bear with a twist: 1 LL, 3 ML (2 if you don't want to build heat that round), 1 SRM-2 (if you can deal with the heat), and either 2 MG or a punch, depending on the CRD's remaining armor.

Add Inferno ammo to the TDR's SRM rack, and it's a no-brainer.

Between that, the HS advantage, and the damage concentration potential of the LL, I'll go with the TDR in any terrain where the TDR can actually REACH the CRD.

[Belisarius]

I am a huge CRD fan and have been since I got into the game. That said, yes, the TDR is more suited to a duel. I really like the new 7W and being able to lay out 28 SRMs in a volley is just outstanding. But to make that mech work, you really need a great pilot and, even then, a bad day means the loss of an expensive mech (odds are good you'll be able to salvage a finger and a toe off that one... too much ammo), as well as an elite pilot (cuz who really lets an elite enemy walk off the field?). The TDR is, by and large, a more effective design. That doesn't mean I won't continue to dote on my CDR7W tho.

[El Kostlivec]

Well, I am quite Thunderbolt fan, but still from objective point of view I also think that in 1 on 1 fight, Thunderbolt would statistically win more times.