TDR-5S Thunderbolt vs CRD-3R Crusader, fight!

[Neufeld]

I started to think about this old MegaMek scenario where a TDR-5S Thunderbolt clashes with a CRD-3R Crusader.

So, I am trying to analyze the ideal strategies for each mech and the most likely winner. Now, I know that most will say that the Thunderbolt will win due to it being more popular than the Crusader, but it is really so?

Let us take a look, at the strong/weak points of each mech.

Thunderbolt:
+ Stronger leg armor
+ Better sinked
+ Has a hole puncher
+ Better crit placement
+ Better in physical combat
- Harder to empty ammo bins
- Weaker long-range fire power
- Worse at crit-seeking

Crusader:
+ Better at crit-seeking
+ Better long-range fire power
+ Easier to empty ammo bins
- Weaker leg armor
- Less heat sinks
- No hole puncher
- Torso bombs
- All weapons in arms & legs

Next, which range brackets favor which mech:
16+ Crusader: Two LRM 15s versus one
15 Thunderbolt: Adding in the large laser gives the Thunderbolt a slight favor
11-14 Crusader: Now the LRMs are at medium while the laser is at long.
10 Thunderbolt: As above, the large laser gains its medium bracket.
8-9 Thunderbolt: As above, but the Thunderbolt might throw in a short range weapon.
7 Crusader: The LRMs are at short now.
4-6 Crusader?: Everyone switches out the LRMs to the medium lasers and SRMs. The Thunderbolt is likely to switch to LL+3ML, while the Crusader does 2SRM+ML, which should be about 17 vs 21 in favor of the Crusader.
2-3: Crusader?: As above, but with machine guns added in.
1: Thunderbolt: The Crusader has problems with doing physical attacks and firing weapons, while the Thunderbolt manages much better.

So, it seems that the idea strategy for the Crusader is to hang back while emptying the LRM bins, and then close in to use the SRMs, while the Thunderbolt either want to hang out at 8-10 hexes or get real close for physicals.

So, who will win?

BTW, this scenario is a good one to learn heat management. First time I played it went: 'Seems like I a have gained an advantage, lets press it home' **BOOM** - ammo cooks off on my Thunderbolt.

[markhall]

From my own Experiences I'd put my money on the T-Bolt every time.

But it really depends on the folks running it and the dice on the day.
You could run the game a 100 times and while times will be similar.
There is no reason why it couldn't go to ether side as neither has a real advantage over the other.

[Marwynn]

Ooh, interesting match-up. I've had these two square off more than once. It may be my knack for sucking with LRM rolls but the T-bolt always came out on top at the end by a small margin. The CRD-3R is one dangerous 'Mech at any range, but as you said it lacks a true "hole puncher".

I'd call it even. Too much is up to the hit locations of the LRMs and how tight the groupings are.

[LastChanceCav]

I think the more reliable hole-puncher and better heat dissipation on the T-bolt will give it the advantage in the long run. The CRD can only fire those LRMs and run for 2 turns before it starts to pile on heat effects, and then it also cedes maneuverability to the T-bolt and is a goner.

Cheers,
LCC

[Demon55]

Both mechs have too much ammo and in my experience the Crusader is a walking bomb.  I have hardly used the T-bolt, but would give it the edge as it will have more punch when it runs out of ammunition as it has 3ML and a LL vs the Crusaders 2ML.

[markhall]

Be a heck of a game if the Thunderbolt managed to run out of SRM Ammo.  ;D

[RGCavScout]

I have to go with the Thunderbolt.  The large laser dishes out more concentrated damage and the T-bolt can ride a slightly better heat curve; but I am sure that it will generally be a close run affair.

[FedSunsBorn]

Terrain and piloting skill can change any fight but I would definitely have to go with the good ol' T-Bolt.

[evilauthor]

Wait, doesn't this scenario come with each side having a bug mech sidekick? Don't they change the complexion of the game somewhat?

[Deadborder]

Going with the trend here and siding with the T-Bolt. While the Crusader does have a better punch at the longest ranges, the equal speed profiles means that, unless terrain is really favouring, the T-Bolt will close down the distance a lot more readily then the Crusader can back up. As the range closes, the T-Bolt gains in both overall damage and reliability over the Crusader with its lasers coming to play.

Endurance also tends to favour the T-Bolt. Whiel it does have a one-ton armour advantage, that's largely irrelivant overall. However, its far better heat dissapation (The T-Bolt can stagger-fire far better then the Crusader can) will quickly turn the battle to its favour. Finally, while its unlikely that the battle will reach "ammo starvation" levels, the T-Bolt has a far better ability to soak crits then the Crusader; the only crits in the CRD's side torso are its LRM ammo, while the free room in its CT are SRM and MG ammo. Of course, if the CRD decides to empty one LRM ammo bin first (smart move) it also leave it vunerable to CT crits.

All up, I'll give it to the T-Bolt. I'm not going to call it a certainty, and I'm not going to say it's an east fight, but generrally the 'bolt will win more often then not.

[Neufeld]

Wait, doesn't this scenario come with each side having a bug mech sidekick? Don't they change the complexion of the game somewhat?

No, you are thinking about the first one with Griffin and Wasp versus Wolverine and Stinger. This one has one mech on each side.

[Reaver]

Crusaders and T-bolts have different mission profiles, a fact that puts Crusaders at a disadvantage in a 1-on-1 fight.  Crusaders are fire support/combat support vehicles that supplement a line cracker like an Orion, Awesome or T-bolt by pummeling opposing mechs as they go in and crit-seeking once they get in close.  T-bolts are, as mentioned, general mission mechs typically used to breach an enemy line and hold it open.  The consequence of those different profiles is that in a one on one fight, the Crusader is at a disadvantage because of its inability to single-handedly punch open holes in enemy armor.  They can only sandblast armor down, which works only on designs with less armor than the Crusader or T-bolt.  Against a Champion, I'd expect the Crusader to win, but not the 'bolt.

[House Davie Merc]

T-Bolt .

There's another factor on the T-Bolt's side that the OP didn't include .

You can't torso twist the SRM-6s on the Crusader .

If the T-Bolt manages to get into the Crusader's side arc then those
leg mounted SRMs are out of the fight .

If the T-Bolt manages to get in a side arc at a range of 1 the Crusader will have
a choice between firing it's arm mounted weapons or a physical attack while
the T-Bolt can do both .
If  the Crusader still has any LRM ammo then a side crit means death .

Also if the Crusader is behind something that blocks LOS at level 1
(like a hill or building) then it also can't fire it's SRMs .


I just wish there was a canon Thunderbolt that had both the LRM-15
AND a PPC .
That would be Nervana for me .

[worktroll]

Got to join the Tbolt appreciation society. Based primarily on the Crusader's torso bombs, and the Tbolt's better crit soaking capability. You can call the Crusader many things, but "Zombie" isn't often one of them.

W.

[HavocTheWarDog]

Played right, the Tbolt everytime just for longevity of the energy weapons!

[Force of Nature]

Thunderbolt for the win.

Force

[Wrangler]

I'm with the rest, T-Bolt is a tough and reliable 'Mech for worth.

Crusader, is unit that needs supporting elements to to draw fire away from its explosive personality err sides.

[Oddball]

Crusaders and T-bolts have different mission profiles, a fact that puts Crusaders at a disadvantage in a 1-on-1 fight.  Crusaders are fire support/combat support vehicles that supplement a line cracker like an Orion, Awesome or T-bolt by pummeling opposing mechs as they go in and crit-seeking once they get in close.  T-bolts are, as mentioned, general mission mechs typically used to breach an enemy line and hold it open.  The consequence of those different profiles is that in a one on one fight, the Crusader is at a disadvantage because of its inability to single-handedly punch open holes in enemy armor.  They can only sandblast armor down, which works only on designs with less armor than the Crusader or T-bolt.  Against a Champion, I'd expect the Crusader to win, but not the 'bolt.

Given their different mission profiles, maybe the better (or more fair to the Crusader) scenario would be a battle between a lance of four Tbolts vs a lance of three Tbolts and one Crusader.  Which lance comes out on top?  Does swapping out a Tbolt for a Crusader in the second lance give it an advantage? Theoretically, it should, or else what is the point of a fire-support mech, but honestly I have no idea if it would in practice. 

[Aajav-Khan]

 Thunderbolt. The Crusader is a walking bomb that lacks a concentrated punch.

[Diamondshark]

The Crusader packs a LOT more firepower for a couple turns, but if the Thunderbolt can survive that, the Crusader packs less firepower than a Firestarter. 

[massey]

Moving the Crusader's ammo to the arms would even the fight considerably.  It keeps a side torso crit from being instant death.  Still, the Thunderbolt has the advantage in a one-on-one fight.  Get inside of 6 and most of the Crusader's firepower goes to waste.

[Neufeld]

I think that the Crusader's torso bomb situation is not that much of a problem on 1 vs 1, since the lack of concentration of fire means that the LRM ammo bins will run low when the armor gets thin. On the other hand, the large laser and heat sinks on the Thunderbolt will be more of a deciding factor.

[Minemech]

You could aloways use inferno ammo. The only nuissance with that is that the mech only has 1 ton of SRM ammo.

[Downslide]

For grins (and since I was on a terribly useless conference call at work that amounted to a total waste of time) I just ran it thru the latest release of Megamek.

The battle took a grand total of 27 minutes  -- minus 5 minutes-ish where I was involved in the call.

Drumroll please?
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
The Bot controlled Thunderbolt TDR-5S beat my Crusader CRD-3R.

The caveat would be the luck (or lack thereof) of my piloting skill rolls.

The short version?  I stayed in lvl1 water until I had only 3 reloads left of LRM. I closed to 7 hexes, and tossed a few turns of srm/ml/lrm.

I did some decent damage, had a few rounds of dishing it out and not taking any, but at medium range, he hit me for 20+, including a crit on my LRM Ammo box (luckily the round AFTER I emptied it). I blew my piloting roll, already having a damage pt to my pilot for a head shot I took. she took another point in the process of trying to get up and failing TWICE. She pretty much tripped the CRD-3R into losing an arm, then blowing up the engine.

15 rounds. Game Over.

if anyone wants to see the log, I can post it.

[Morpheus1975]

What about a CRD-5K vs a TDR-9M?

or better yet a

CRD-7W vs TDR-11SE too bad there is no CDR with a light FE

[Neufeld]

What about a CRD-5K vs a TDR-9M?

or better yet a

CRD-7W vs TDR-11SE too bad there is no CDR with a light FE

Both would probably result in a dead Crusader, and be much more uneven than TDR-5S vs CRD-3R in favor of the Thunderbolt unless you adjust pilot skill to make the BV more even.
In the TDR-5S vs CRD-3R we had 1335 vs 1317 BV, quite even.

TDR-9M vs CRD-5K - 1648 vs 1463 BV.
This puts a long-range SFE cool running mech, against a short-range MRM armed heat-hog with XL engine.

TDR-11SE vs CRD-7W - 1754 vs 1221 BV.
This puts LFE 4/6/6, Snubbie + Tarcomp and ECM versus XLFE, XL gyro 4/6/0 with Artemis equipped MMLs.

I would say the first one is winnable for the Crusader if it manages to corner the Thunderbolt, in the second one the Crusader needs both luck and much better skill to have a chance at all.

[Morpheus1975]

Problem is not the CRD but the fact that it has no decent canon designs.  It should be an even fight for the two but the designs are just bad on the CRD. 

Too bad HMP is not up to spec on the new technologies or we could make some decent variants of the CRD.  The CRD-8S would have a decent chance but with the complete alteration in weapons and the addition of a HGR I don't consider it a CRD anymore.

I hate it when the variants are so wild as to basically turn a mech into something completely different.

[Beukeboom Fan]

I think that the Crusader's torso bomb situation is not that much of a problem on 1 vs 1, since the lack of concentration of fire means that the LRM ammo bins will run low when the armor gets thin. On the other hand, the large laser and heat sinks on the Thunderbolt will be more of a deciding factor.

Agree with this 100%.  You've only got 8 rounds for each LRM 15, and unless the terrain is REALLY tight the Crusader should be able to keep the range open enough to fire through those before the ammo becomes an issue.

I think it depends a lot on skill of the players and who wins initiative.   If the CRU player is better and can stay in the 11-14 range bracket as it fires through it's LRM's, and then can close to within range 6 - it's got a chance.  That's a lot of if's though.  The T-Bolt definetely is the more forgiving mech, and should win even more often than not.

I would say that I think the CRU-3D would have a better shot.  Drops the MG's, and reduces the SRM6's to SRM4's and adds 4 HS's.   Still undergunned, but depending how lucky/good you are with the LRM's - it's got much better sustainable firepower at short range.

[Blacksheep]

I dunno, in my experience the Thunderbolt has always underperformed because of its anemic firepower while the Crusader is a personal favorite due to its immense firepower when managed correctly.

[Reaver]

Problem is not the CRD but the fact that it has no decent canon designs.  It should be an even fight for the two but the designs are just bad on the CRD. 

Too bad HMP is not up to spec on the new technologies or we could make some decent variants of the CRD.  The CRD-8S would have a decent chance but with the complete alteration in weapons and the addition of a HGR I don't consider it a CRD anymore.

I hate it when the variants are so wild as to basically turn a mech into something completely different.

There's nothing wrong with the Crusader designs.  It just isn't a mech that's designed to slug it out 1-on-1 with a heavily-armored beast like the Tbolt.  It would have the same problem with an Orion.  It's designed to work with other mechs.  A Crusader working with a Tbolt (or if you're a fan of the BoK trilogy, a Crusader working with a Victor) will be more effective as a matched pair than two T-bolts or two Victors working on their own.