What if the Inner Sphere made Heavy Lasers

[Rim Worlder]

What if the Inner Sphere made Heavy Lasers, what stats would you give them ?

this is predominantly for an AU setting in 3025.  working on the axiom that more is better, someone in the IS ( or several someones ) develop the Heavy Laser class during the 3rd SW.  What stats would you give them to keep the game balanced ?

I was thinking Heat, Damage and Crits as per the clan versions.  Weight and range as per the IS pulse lasers of the same size.

i.e.  Heavy Large Laser, 7t, 3 crit.  16 damage, 18 heat, range 0-3, 4-7, 8-10

originally I was thinking same ranges as the clan Heavy lasers....but


Heavy Large Laser, 7t, 3 crit.  16 damage, 18 heat, range 0-5, 6-10, 11-15 seemed a bit too powerful for me. 

sure same heat as a PPC + Large laser combined with only single heat sinks.  But in a package the same size/weight as a regular PPC, doing almost the same damage as a PPC + large laser to a single location and out to large laser range.  Swap an AC/20 + ammo for one of these + heatsinks and no ammo explosions.

Heavy Medium Laser, 2t, 2 crit.  10 damage, 7 heat to 9 hexes.  straight forward swap, 1 for every 2 MLs on your design.  Hunchback 4 P anyone ?


thoughts, opinions ?  what if in 3060+ ?

[Stormfury]

Why not just allow the Binary Laser Cannon?

The heat generated by these weapons is going to be murder with only SHS to deal with the heat.

[Arkansas Warrior]

IS tech shouldn't be as good as Clan tech.  I'd go with range as per ISPLs, damage as per Clan ERs, heat as per ERs. 
 
 
IS HLL  Range 3/7/10, Damage 10, Heat 12
IS HML Range 2/4/6, Damage 7, Heat 5
IS HSL Range 1/2/3, Damage 5, Heat 2
 

[Wanderer]

Why not just allow the Binary Laser Cannon?

The heat generated by these weapons is going to be murder with only SHS to deal with the heat.

This. The Binary pretty much IS a 3025-era heavy laser, although with no accuracy problems.

[Rim Worlder]

Why not just allow the Binary Laser Cannon?

That is a valid option and I plan on checking it's stats against the Heavy Large Laser but the main idea is to have all three sizes of laser, small, medium and large, with medium probally ending up being the most popular.

The heat generated by these weapons is going to be murder with only SHS to deal with the heat.

thats part of the idea.  and why mediums will become the most likely and numerous used of any of them.

[evilauthor]

IS HSL Range 1/2/3, Damage 5, Heat 2

Is it just me, or does this one COMPLETELY obsolete the regular Small Laser?

[I am Belch II]

It would be ok, but the ranges and most of the IS mechs us standard heat sinks that would cause a problem.

[Wanderer]

thats part of the idea.  and why mediums will become the most likely and numerous used of any of them.

With the poor accuracy and inefficient damage: heat ratios, you're better off firing a standard large laser in most cases. A 5 heat, 7 damage weapon with cruddy range and a +1 targeting modifier? Ew.

[Kit deSummersville]

Is it just me, or does this one COMPLETELY obsolete the regular Small Laser?

No, you still need the SL for balancing TSM 'Mechs' heat levels.

[massey]

Is it just me, or does this one COMPLETELY obsolete the regular Small Laser?

Generally.  The +1 to hit may not be enough to balance it.

The problem with giving the IS heavy lasers back in 3025 is that 1) you're limiting the value of regular lasers, and 2) you may be giving them weapons more effective than they'll get in 3050.  Whether that is a problem or not depends on what exactly you are looking for in your game.

I'd have to tinker with it for a while to be happy with it.  In the end, a heavy medium should not be as good as a large laser, not even close.  You're basically cramming as much damage as possible in, regardless of any other factors.

[Peter Smith]

If you want to go this route I'd baseline off of the Blazer and extrapolate numbers from there:

The standard Blazer is renamed to the Large Blazer. Yes, I can do that. See the example of the Autocannon from early runs of 2nd Ed Boxed Set and BattleDroids.

Medium Blazer: Heat 6, Damage 7 (we round everything up throughout this experiment, except for damage), Range 0/3/6/9, Cost 80k, 2 tons, 2 crits.
Small Blazer: Heat 2, Damage 4, Range 0/1/2/3, Cost 22.5k, 1 ton, 2 crits.

[Ruger]

Small Blazer: Heat 2, Damage 4, Range 0/1/2/3, Cost 22.5k, 1 ton, 2 crits.

Not sure of the benefits of this one vs. standard medium lasers and pairs of smalls.

Ruger

[Peter Smith]

Not sure of the benefits of this one vs. standard medium lasers and pairs of smalls.

Weapon slot limitations on AeroSpace fighters.

[massey]

Not sure of the benefits of this one vs. standard medium lasers and pairs of smalls.

Ruger

Sadly, you're gonna get that a lot at the lower end.  The problem is that you're dealing with weapons that have single integer ranges, and weigh the smallest increment in weight.  An increase to the next weight increment sees a HUUUGE boost in range and effectiveness.  I never saw the point of the IS small pulse laser.  It's worse than the medium laser in almost every way (one less heat) at every range except range 1.

So any new weapon in that area is going to either completely outclass the small laser or be humbled by the medium laser.  Perhaps a .5 ton heavy small with medium laser heat and damage, and 1/2/3 range with a +1 to hit?  I still thinks that outclasses the regular small laser quite a bit, though.

[Rim Worlder]

Generally.  The +1 to hit may not be enough to balance it.

thats why I went with IS pulse laser range, otherwise far too powerful.

The problem with giving the IS heavy lasers back in 3025 is that 1) you're limiting the value of regular lasers, and 2) you may be giving them weapons more effective than they'll get in 3050.  Whether that is a problem or not depends on what exactly you are looking for in your game.

the idea is that the heavy lasers have a higher damage potential than the standard lasers but at a cost of much higher heat with only single heat sinks.  Thats the balancing act.  I don't expect to see them used on every design, maybe more of an individual thing based on pilot's ( character's ) preference for getting in close and personnal.  Maybe originated on Solaris VII as a final, in-your-face, surprise kill shot type of weapon.

I'd have to tinker with it for a while to be happy with it.  In the end, a heavy medium should not be as good as a large laser, not even close. 

very valid point, I'll re-examine.

[Rim Worlder]

If you want to go this route I'd baseline off of the Blazer and extrapolate numbers from there:

The standard Blazer is renamed to the Large Blazer. Yes, I can do that. See the example of the Autocannon from early runs of 2nd Ed Boxed Set and BattleDroids.

Medium Blazer: Heat 6, Damage 7 (we round everything up throughout this experiment, except for damage), Range 0/3/6/9, Cost 80k, 2 tons, 2 crits.
Small Blazer: Heat 2, Damage 4, Range 0/1/2/3, Cost 22.5k, 1 ton, 2 crits.

I like this idea alot.  I have to admit that I had forgotten about the Blazer canon when I first had the concept.  Will have to brush up on the Blazer's stats and details.

[Ruger]

I never saw the point of the IS small pulse laser.  It's worse than the medium laser in almost every way (one less heat) at every range except range 1.

It's primary benefit comes from its anti-infantry abilities...

Ruger

[Onisuzume]

Personally, I came up with the following stats a few months ago:
Follows the same rules for the clan variants otherwise.
ER-X lasers are an attempt to increase the range even further by combining ER laser technology with X-Pulse technology.

Code: [Select]

Name                    Heat    Damage    Short    Medium    Long    Tons    Crits
Heavy Small              2          4            1             2          -        0,5        1
ER Heavy Small         3          4            1             2          3         1          1
ER-X Heavy Small      4          4            2             4          5         1          1
Heavy Medium           5          8            2             4          6         1          2
ER Heavy Medium      8          8            3             6          9         1          2
ER-X Heavy Medium   10        8            4             8          12       1          2Haden't gotten around to doing the large, binary, and bombast versions yet, or the pulse versions.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Is it just me, or does this one COMPLETELY obsolete the regular Small Laser?

Good point, maybe range brackets of 0/1/2 instead.

[Akalabeth]

IS tech shouldn't be as good as Clan tech.  I'd go with range as per ISPLs, damage as per Clan ERs, heat as per ERs. 
 
 
IS HLL  Range 3/7/10, Damage 10, Heat 12
IS HML Range 2/4/6, Damage 7, Heat 5
IS HSL Range 1/2/3, Damage 5, Heat 2

Hmmn. That doesn't really follow the standard I think set down by say ERs.

Give them Clan HL heat but with less range and less damage.

What are clan HLs?
HLL? 18h 16d 5/10/15

So Inner sphere would be like:
18h 12d 4/8/12

Similarily
IS HML: 6h 7d 2/4/6
IS HSL: 2h 4d -/1/2?

Along with the +1 to hit of course

[Dread Moores]

So Inner sphere would be like:
18h 12d 4/8/12

Then the binary laser outperforms it quite a bit at 16h, 12 d, 5/10/15.

[Rim Worlder]

Then the binary laser outperforms it quite a bit at 16h, 12 d, 5/10/15.

I've been going over different sets of numbers based on responses and using the Large Binary Laser seems to give the best, in terms of bang for your buck, results via damage and range for weight and crit investment.  But the inherrent thing about Heavy Lasers ( to me anyway ) from reading their description is more damage for less range and accuracy  Also the Binary Laser systems gives you two barrels, ala the unseen Battlemaster's PPC, as oposed to one via the Heavy Laser route.  I realise no difference in pure gaming terms but visulising and moding miniatures is a different thing.  Also a different design concept.  Two in to One vs One biggger laser.

still a work in progress.

[Akalabeth]

Then the binary laser outperforms it quite a bit at 16h, 12 d, 5/10/15.

What weight and tonnage is the binary laser? The main benefit of heavy lasers in my opinion is getting that amount of damage from that amount of tonnage. a ML, a 1 ton weapon does 10 damage.

If the binary laser is like 7-8 tons then a 5 ton IS heavy large laser will have its own uses.

[Onisuzume]

All lasers follow a pretty much set pattern, actually.
So you can follow that already-existant pattern for new weapons.
Lets look at the clan ER medium Laser (since they lack a normal one), and the heavy medium laser:
ERML: 5h, 7d, 1 crit.
HML: 7h, 10d, 2 crits.
With a difference of about 40% in both cases, and double the bulk.

Assuming that the IS would use the standard ML as the basis for their heavy laser, we'd be looking at:
ML: 3h, 5d, 1 crit.
+40%
HML: 4h, 7d, 2 crits.
Still 1 ton, and the range would be reduced to that of a medium pulse laser, balanced enough, or?

Applying the same to the LL:
LL: 8h, 8d, 2 crits. +40%
HLL: 11h, 11d, 4 crits. (I know, the CHLL triples the crits, but who's going to spend 6 crits on this?)
And the SL:
SL: 1h, 3d, 1 crit. +40%
HSL: 2h, 4d, 1 crit.

ER lasers? +50% heat for increased range (usually rounding up). X-Pulse? Varies between +40% heat (Large X-Pulse), and +50% heat (small/medium x-pulse).

If the binary laser is like 7-8 tons then a 5 ton IS heavy large laser will have its own uses.

Its 9 tons... A bombast laser is superior in each and every way (7 tons, 7-12 damage/heat, same range), well, sort-of superior.

[Stormfury]

The HLL you posit does as much damage and heat for its basic shot as a Bombast laser suffering a +4 to-hit penalty.

Not seeing the superiority there.

[Akalabeth]

All lasers follow a pretty much set pattern, actually.
So you can follow that already-existant pattern for new weapons.
Lets look at the clan ER medium Laser (since they lack a normal one), and the heavy medium laser:

Eh, you're right about the pattern, wrong about the example. The clans DO have a normal medium laser, they just don't use it except on Star League or second line designs.

The Heavy Laser's set patten compared to regular lasers are thus:
Same tonnage
Double the damage
Increased Crits
At least 225% of the original heat

Now what do we know about comparing Inner Sphere tech to Clan Tech? (ie ER lasers, PPCs, etcetera)
IS cause the same heat
They weigh the same or more
They take up more crits
They do less damage.
Range is either the same, or less.

ER MLs do the same heat both times.

So with that in mind, howabout this:
HSL - .5 tons - 1 crit - 3 Heat - 5 Damage - 1/2/3 Range
HML - 1 tons - 2 crits - 7 Heat - 8 Damage - 3/6/9 Range
HLL - 5 tons - 4 crits - 18 heat - 14 Damage - 5/10/15 Range

Or maybe .5/1.5/6 tons
But basically, it doesn't weigh that much but you end up paying with heat.

Compare the heavy to the Binary
9 Tons / 4 Crits / 12 heat

So the HLL would be 4 less tons, but 6 more heat with a +1 to hit and 2 less damage. Actually in that case I think the Binary would be superior myself unless you've got more heat sinks than tonnage.

[Onisuzume]

The HLL you posit does as much damage and heat for its basic shot as a Bombast laser suffering a +4 to-hit penalty.

Not seeing the superiority there.

I was comparing to the Binary Laser Cannon, not the HLL. ::)

Eh, you're right about the pattern, wrong about the example. The clans DO have a normal medium laser, they just don't use it except on Star League or second line designs.

The clans don't even produce those anymore for about 200 years.
Just the fact that they stlll have them on antique 'Mechs doesn't mean they base their new weapons off it.
And I think that the text says they were based on clan ER lasers, with a big range reduction.

So the HLL would be 4 less tons, but 6 more heat with a +1 to hit and 2 less damage. Actually in that case I think the Binary would be superior myself unless you've got more heat sinks than tonnage.

Binary is 16 heat...

[Akalabeth]

Binary is 16 heat...

Isn't the Binary 16 damage and 12 heat? Or was I reading the table wrong??

[massey]

Isn't the Binary 16 damage and 12 heat? Or was I reading the table wrong??

It's been errata'd.  Apparently they printed the numbers backwards.

[Rim Worlder]

It's been errata'd.  Apparently they printed the numbers backwards.

it was really popular until the errata.    }:)