What would make FF armor worth its weight and Crits

[imperator]

I've come to realize as I make new mechs, that I don't put FF on them anymore. Compared to the weight saving that ES gives me, it's not worth the weight savings or extra crits, especially IS. I'm thinking of allowing the Extra crits taken to the FF to actually absorb critical hits.  What else would make FF more attractive without changing the Armor Factor or critical Spaces?

[cray]

If you play a campaign, refitting an existing 'Mech with FF armor is a lot easier than other weight-saving options. Its also easier to manufacture than an XL or endosteel. Otherwise, no, FF isn't worth it, especially if you don't care about the roleplaying aspects of BT.

[Marwynn]

One bonus that was offered to us min-maxing dastards was to make IS CASE take up no slots (but still weigh 0.5 tons). The rules don't really allow for that, but the GM handwaved it and it was a cool bit to get us to use FF more liberally with our Level 1 'Mechs (instead of trying to get a facility to fit in some ES bones).

Me, I love FF since I normally play in the 3025-3039 era, just on the cusp of recovered technology.

[imperator]

It is easier to retrofit? I thought that ES and FF were as difficult to retrofit as each other.

[ItsTehPope]

It is easier to retrofit? I thought that ES and FF were as difficult to retrofit as each other.

FF is a pretty easy refit actually - ES is "Send back to factory"

[A. Lurker]

FF is a pretty easy refit actually - ES is "Send back to factory"

Specifically, according to StratOps changing armor type, tonnage, and/or distribution are all Class C refits -- maintenance-level, basically doable in your DropShip 'Mech bay. Changing the internal structure type shoots up all the way to Class F; that's not just factory-level, it's as hard and time-consuming as refits get, period, and to this day I'm not even quite sure what base time to canonically use for the operation. (I suppose treating it as replacing all the 'Mech's locations as though they had been destroyed would make the most sense, though. At four hours base time per location, times eight locations, times five for Class F...yes, it's going to take a while. Longer if your techs fail the check and/or you don't have a ready-made refit kit and are making do with random parts at hand.)

Makes sense to me, too. After all, BT armor is basically meant to be replaced (it's ablative, your techs will have to regularly pull off the remains of old plates and fit new ones into place anyway) while swapping out a 'Mech's old internal skeleton for a new essentially means taking the whole machine apart, putting it back together different from before, and hoping it still works afterwards.

[Youngblood]

Guys, I'm hopping in my time machine.  The destination: 5 weeks ago.  Wanna come with?

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,2855.0.html

[Onisuzume]

If you play a campaign, refitting an existing 'Mech with FF armor is a lot easier than other weight-saving options. Its also easier to manufacture than an XL or endosteel. Otherwise, no, FF isn't worth it, especially if you don't care about the roleplaying aspects of BT.

But FF also needs to be replaced a lot more often since its usually the first thing to be damaged, while XL and EE have a buffer.

[A. Lurker]

What would make FF more attractive is if it actually provided better protection. Thanks to its inability to change the maximum armor factor of a given 'Mech or vehicle one iota, though, its only use really is as a weight-saving measure...and in that regard, yes, it admittedly sucks.

So, yes, I personally use ferro-fibrous armor only if either endosteel isn't an option by the rules, or if I'm already using that and still have the room...or purely for fluff reasons, of course. (As in, "This design is a field refit/comes from a poor world with no ready access to orbital factories, so endosteel is right out!") At some point, I find I just have to stop caring about efficiency so much in order to keep the game fun for myself.

[Greyhind]

But FF also needs to be replaced a lot more often since its usually the first thing to be damaged, while XL and EE have a buffer.

I think the point was that sending a 'mech back to the factory for a refit could easily stretch into a year of sitting around doing nothing if you are in an out of the way location. House units may (may!) get temp rides (or outright replacements) arrive on the same dropship that takes the old 'mech away but a 'merc'll just go out of business in that timeframe.

FF is a slightly more expensive way to to fit in that extra laser in the long run but you'll know that the long run hasn't been cancelled. And a merc can try to get armour and ammo included in the contract.


One thing that hasn't been noted is that you can fit FF on a 'mech in some situations. Lights don't tend to use up crits. Composite and Endo-Composite I.S.s leave more room. In fact, in some cass you can even fit HFF armour.

[House Davie Merc]

Yes Endo steel is more efficient then FFA  .


IMHO FFA is best used when combined with ES to save weight on smaller designs
where every ton counts but limited space isn't nearly as much of a problem .

It's also quite a bit cheaper then an XL Engine and less risky .

[Reaver]

It is easier to retrofit? I thought that ES and FF were as difficult to retrofit as each other.

Ferro can be swapped on/off a mech in a repair gantry.  Retrofitting a mech with endo would require effectively deboning the mech and rebuilding it from scratch.  So if you've got a Level 1, and you want a level 2, you can do one of two things:  you can sell the level 1 and purchase a level 2 with endo, or you can simply retrofit your level 1 with ferro and turn it into level 2.

All in all, I prefer to simply buy mechs with endo:  it's ultimately cheaper despite the higher risk and more difficulty finding an effective replacement.  But most of my retrofits use ferro either to save a bit of weight or to increase the armor protection of those level 1's, many of which were badly in need of some extra armor protection.

[Shijima_3085]

Replacing an entire Mechs internals with Endo (or other type), it would probably be faster to pull everything off the old Mech and re-install it on the new "skeleton", as opposed to pulling everything appart and replacing the pieces.  In fact, I think the fluff for some of the factory-level Wolverine upgrades in Kurita space indicate just that.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ferro can be installed at effectively no penalty on vehicles.

[willydstyle]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but Ferro is basically an extra-super-bonus to give lights and mediums a bit more weight to play around with in an effort to keep them viable in an era of XL engines, targeting computers, and pulse lasers.

[Youngblood]

I think it was mentioned earlier, but Ferro is basically an extra-super-bonus to give lights and mediums a bit more weight to play around with in an effort to keep them viable in an era of XL engines, targeting computers, and pulse lasers.

I'm not thoroughly convinced of that, especially now when XL Gyros are also available to do the same thing, for 12 fewer crit spaces.

[Scotty]

Only difference is that you can crit the other slots on the gyro.  A light with a gyro crit is not going to live very long.

[Youngblood]

Only difference is that you can crit the other slots on the gyro.  A light with a gyro crit is not going to live very long.

So is a Light 'Mech with a -Standard- Gyro crit.  There's absolutely no difference in durability, and a very minute difference in the likelyhood of getting that Gyro crit anyways, in my opinion.

[Scotty]

The chance of getting the gyro crit is fully doubled in the event of a crit on the torso for any reason.

And on the other hand, you can't crit FF at all, so there's literally zero disadvantage aside from critspace to mount it, which is something most lights have in spades.

[willydstyle]

If something goes internal on my center torso, I *much* prefer taking an engine crit to a gyro crit. Taking an XL gryo is probably effectively shortening the lifespan of a mech by one or two turns, as you cannot crit-pad the CT with medium lasers, and a mech with a single gyro crit is massively crippled compared to a mech with a single engine hit.  When you couple this with the fact that a mech can take an extra engine hit before being put out of action compared to gyro hits...

XL gyros are a decent weight-saving piece of kit, but they *do* significantly impact the durability of the mech.

[Youngblood]

The chance of getting the gyro crit is fully doubled in the event of a crit on the torso for any reason.

Doubled from what?  The minute chances of a through-armor crit?  Or enough total damage on the 'Mech to basically render it a lost cause anyway?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Doubled from what?  The minute chances of a through-armor crit?  Or enough total damage on the 'Mech to basically render it a lost cause anyway?

Yeah, light mechs have such low amounts of internal structure that once they start taking internal damage they're pretty much dead anyway.  XL Gyros are a liability on Heavies and Assaults that can actually expect to take multiple CT hits without dieing.  Lights, not so much.

[A. Lurker]

Doubled from what?  The minute chances of a through-armor crit?  Or enough total damage on the 'Mech to basically render it a lost cause anyway?

"The minute chance of a through-armor crit". Some people really do send Murphy written invitations.

For the record, though, the math on the 'doubled' chance does seem to be off. I come up with at worst a +50% risk of a gyro hit over a standard model, assuming a virgin CT and something to pad the two open slots with. Of course, that's only for the first one, and having five XL slots left over rather than three standard ones if another crit results from the same or a later hit also nicely increases the chances of a followup sending your machine crashing to the ground for keeps...

...anyway, in all honesty, XL gyros don't particularly convince me either. I'd probably just as soon take a small cockpit -- saves me a ton and gets me a slot back, and the PSR penalty is at least something I'll know about in advance and can try to compensate for. And since, as you say, light 'Mechs aren't long for this world to begin with, I won't have to do it for long anyway... ;)

[Scotty]

My mistake, I had it in my head that Standard Gyros were three crits, not four. :P

Still, Murphy doth not appreciate temptation.

[Youngblood]

My mistake, I had it in my head that Standard Gyros were three crits, not four. :P

Still, Murphy doth not appreciate temptation.

If I cared about Murphy's laws, I would field nothing but Great Turtles.  Yes, even for recon.  And even then, Armor-Piercing autocannon ammo and Tandem-Charge SRMs would do me in.

Anyway, off topic.  Carry on!

[Shijima_3085]

I think the XL gyro and durability issue may depend on the style of play.  For a "kill'em all" game, crippling due to gyro hits doesn't matter much - it just turns into an ankle biting pillbox for a couple of turns.  In that case the extras the Mech gets in exchange for the larger size greatly outweigh the risks.  For campaign-style play, force preservation/retreating is important.  While it is likely that a Mech only has a turn or two left by the time it takes gyro damage that can make the difference in getting off the map or not.  Extra chances at getting the second gyro hit (rather than engine, weapons, or equipment) make it less likely to get to the map edge.

[Peter Smith]

What makes ferro-fibrous armor worth it? Non-BattleMech units. Can't put Endo Steel on a tank, but you can put either Ferro-Fibrous or Ferro-Aluminum on 'em.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And they don't have the absolute limit of armor that they can mount like mechs have.

[Peter Smith]

And they don't have the absolute limit of armor that they can mount like mechs have.

A new rule in Tech Manual says otherwise.

[A. Lurker]

A new rule in Tech Manual says otherwise.

Though to be fair, that limit is still plenty generous and unless you're deliberately trying to design a barely mobile block of armor it's just not going to come up much. :)

I think the main issue the "XL gyros are just better" argument runs into is this: Double heat sinks, endosteel, ferro-fibrous armor and its variants -- those are your safe weight-saving options. They may limit your available crit space during construction (okay, DHSs not so much seeing how much more heat capacity they let you hide in the engine), but they're not going to suddenly rear up and bite you in play. Anything else -- small cockpits, lighter engines, XL gyros -- is a tradeoff; you're knowingly making your 'Mech actually more vulnerable (than it already is in the case of lights) in order to improve its performance while it lasts.

Which option one prefers is really a matter of taste, but I think it's only human to regard decisions that can come back to haunt one while playing more negatively than ones that only pop up during the design stage and can be safely left behind once resolved there. That is, I'm unlikely to fail a PSR at a critical point and find myself thinking "damn, if only I hadn't taken that FF". ;)