A 3025 mech that can take on the clans?

[Lagrange]

In my latest attempt to figure out something near-impossible, I'm curious how feasible it is for a well-designed mech using 3025 tech to have a good chance against clantech mechs.  Below is an attempt---comments/criticism welcome.

Code: [Select]

Deathwalker

Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Standard Tripod
Power Plant: 300 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: None
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     8 Medium Laser
     1 Sniper
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-X
Cost: 9,900,000 C-bills

Type: Deathwalker
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 1,902

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                   11
Engine                        300 Fusion             19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink                     19                      9
Gyro                                                  3
Tripod Cockpit                                        4
Armor Factor                  349                    22

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Head                    3         9   
     Center Torso            31        47   
     Center Torso (rear)               15   
     R/L Torso               21        32   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  10   
     R/L Arm                 17        34   
     R/C/L Leg               21        42   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                    Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
Cluster Sniper Ammo (20)       LL        2        -       2.0 
2 Medium Laser                 CT        2        3       2.0 
3 Medium Laser                 RT        3        3       3.0 
3 Double Heat Sink             RT        9        -       3.0 
Sniper                         LT        20       10      20.0 
Heat Sink                      CL        1        -       1.0 
Medium Laser                   RA        1        3       1.0 
Heat Sink                      CL        1        -       1.0 
Medium Laser                   RA        1        3       1.0 
Medium Laser                   HD        1        3       1.0 
Fuel-Air Sniper Ammo (10)      RL        1        -       1.0 
2 Double Heat Sink             RA        6        -       2.0 
Smoke Sniper Ammo (10)       RL        1        -       1.0   

There are several oddball choices here which combine to make the Deathwalker particularly lethal against any mech. 

A huge sniper artillery piece (20 criticals!) with 4 tons of ammunition (=40 shots) is the main gun.  Although the artillery can be used in a standard multiple-boards-away-with-a-spotter style, it's also good in direct fire situations.  Against airborne units, the special flak rules imply you suffer a flat +3 modifier to hit independent of target movement, and direct fire at a ground unit is a flat +4 modifier to hit, independent of target movement.  The Sniper isn't quite a Long Tom, but it puts out good damage---20/10 points with a standard hit, 20/10/5 with Fuel-Air rounds, and 15/5 with cluster rounds.  The cluster rounds are the best default choice since they use the shot-from-above table, implying 6 hits (=18 5-point hits) is an expected kill against any mech due to head damage.  The odds of a hit are decent (4+4=8) when standing still.  Smoke rounds provide mobile cover.  The Fuel-air rounds are most useful for attacking lighter ground units where it's not worthwhile to work your way through the head armor.   The Sniper is also a Nova killer, since any direct hit eliminates an entire point of battle armor.

The drawback of a direct fire Sniper is a minimum range of 6, so an array of 8 medium lasers are spread all over the upper body to provide additional fire.  Using a Called Shot[high] as per TO rules, these use the punch table (= shot from above) at a +3 penalty to hit, implying that the medium lasers can efficiently exacerbate any damage that an enemy mech sustained from cluster rounds while approaching.   

The final element of the arsenal is the two hand actuators which enable the mech to punch, again on the punch table, providing two more chances to take out a cockpit.  Thus all weapons can contribute significantly to the odds of taking out a cockpit. 

You can't fire all weapons, but between 14 single heat sinks and 5 experimental freezers, you can dissipate 24 heat, enough to fire all medium lasers (0 heat) or the sniper + 5 medium lasers (1 heat).  Playing with heat sink linking rules in TO, you can also fully link 6 medium lasers, leaving the remaining 12 heat sinks in the engine for the Sniper and 2 remaining medium lasers, giving an alpha strike overheat of only 4.  Additionally, 2 of the heat sinks are in the center leg providing the possibility of additional cooling in water.

All of this is held together on a weirdo tripod frame, which has several significant advantages for our purposes.

• The tripod frame has 3 legs, each of which sports the armor of a normal bipod's leg.  Since the odds of hitting the legs is not increased and the leg hit is randomized, this effectively means that leg armor is increased by 50%.  Since leg armor tends to be heavy for the odds of a hit anyways, the ammunition for the Sniper is buried in the legs which are unlikely to be destroyed before the rest of the mech is.
• The tripod's upper body functions as a turret, implying all 8 of the medium lasers and a punch (or 6 medium lasers and 2 punches) can be applied to any unit jumping into the rear.
• The tripod can go hull down behind partial cover, adding an additional +2 to hit penalty.  This is great of course for sniping with the Sniper.
• The tripod can target multiple opponents without a multitarget penalty since it has a dedicated gunner.  Since it's fairly feasible to fire all weapons (since heat sink links above) and the Sniper has a very different range profile, this is useful.
• The tripod has a dedicated pilot which provides a bonus of 1 on all pilot skill rolls (plus a cumulative bonus of 1 for avoiding falls or standing up).  In particular, this makes the punches more lethal.

Is this good enough?
A Dire Wolf Prime can output a sustained 50 damage at long ranges which appears much larger than the 15 the Deathwalker outputs.  However, since the Deathwalker's Sniper ignores target movement, potentially ignores cover, and effectively makes a "free" called shot[high], it's actually more lethal.  For example, after 6 rounds of exchanged hits, the Dire Wolf has an expected 15 damage to the cockpit.  In exchange, the Deathwalker would sustain 300 points of damage... which would likely include internal damage, but might very well be survivable.

There are many caveats of course.  The Deathwalker has more range using (inaccurate-but-plentiful) indirect fire.   The Dire Wolf has more range with direct fire.   Clan pilots tend to have better skills and might be able to use that to eat the Called Shot[high] penalty with their more plentiful weapons at range.  The Deathwalker can use hull-down effectively.   A clan pilot might get within the 6 hex minimum range of artillery.  On the other hand, if it takes a single cluster hit to the head on the way in, every punch has a 1-in-6 chance of being lethal.

Overall, perhaps the Deathwalker provides a credible threat with the outcome of combat dependent on tactical circumstances and luck.  I can't say this about the Atlas---Atlas vs. Dire Wolf results in the Atlas losing almost always.  Does anyone know a better approach?

And a freezer-free version.

Code: [Select]

Deathwalker 3025

Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Standard Tripod
Power Plant: 300 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: None
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     7 Medium Laser
     1 Sniper
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 9,508,000 C-bills

Type: Deathwalker
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 1,817

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                   11
Engine                        300 Fusion             19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink                     21                     11
Gyro                                                  3
Tripod Cockpit                                        4
Armor Factor                  336                    21

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            31        45   
     Center Torso (rear)               14   
     R/L Torso               21        32   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  10   
     R/L Arm                 17        32   
     R/C/L Leg               21        40   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                    Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
2 Heat Sink                    LL        2        -       2.0   
2 Medium Laser                 CT        2        3       2.0   
4 Medium Laser                 RT        4        3       4.0   
Sniper                         LT        20       10      20.0 
2 Heat Sink                    CL        2        -       2.0   
2 Heat Sink                    RL        2        -       2.0   
Medium Laser                   HD        1        3       1.0   
3 Heat Sink                    RA        3        -       3.0   
Fuel-Air Sniper Ammo (10)      RA        1        -       1.0   
Cluster Sniper Ammo (20)       RA        2        -       2.0   
Smoke Sniper Ammo (10)         RA        1        -       1.0   

Edits: swapped sniper ammo for sniper smoke ammo, added freezer free version.

[assaultdoor]

A giant tripod with artillery is just delightful, and I want one of my own. However, there's only about a 60% chance for three head hits after six rounds. Assuming I've got the binomial formula right, that is.

[AlphaMirage]

While I absolutely enjoy the absurdity of the design I am of the opinion that the only IS thing that could stop the clans with introtech is the thing that gave them the most trouble.
Tanks, all of the tanks loaded down with tons of armor and autocannons,
swarms of infantry lying in ambush and smart tactics like smoke and fire.
Artillery mechs are aparticularly bugbear as you could get a more mobile platform using a tank although the choice of a tripod is as inspired as it is peculiar.

I present the Fencer, its a modified Shadow Hawk 2K/Gladiator meant to carry a handheld LRM until it closes within at least medium PPC range. Its almost half the cost of the Deathwalker but unlike that mech a Fencer can pace the heavy cavalry mechs the Clans favor, its jump jets give it great overland mobility, and it carries nearly max armor.

It's SRM-6 is mostly for utility loads with some units in a Lance carrying smoke and HE and all of them using infernos meant to counter the Clans advanced energy weapons and slow them down, possibly even shut them down (when they would clearly punch them in the head or kick them over). Combined with some supporting units like Javelins, Jenners, and Commandos these could very effectively skirmish with the Clans and provide their larger formation some key advantages in either cover or slowing down the Clanners so the 3025 troopers or MBTs can catch them and punish them Succession Wars style.

Code: [Select]

Fencer FNC-AC
Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 275 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
     Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 PPC
     1 SRM 6
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-E-D-D
Cost: 4,657,182 C-bills

Type: Fencer
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,268

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  5.5
Engine                        275 Fusion           15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 3
Heat Sink                     13                      3
Gyro                                                  3
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  184                  11.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            18        27   
     Center Torso (rear)               8     
     R/L Torso               13        20   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  6     
     R/L Arm                 9         18   
     R/L Leg                 13        26   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
PPC                      RT        3        10      7.0   
Jump Jet                 RT        1        -       0.5   
2 Heat Sinks             RT        2        -       2.0   
SRM 6                    LT        2        4       3.0   
2 Jump Jets              LT        2        -       1.0   
SRM 6 Ammo (30)          LT        2        -       2.0   

[Karack Blackstone]

Fencer

Drop the SRM 6 and ammo.

Add 2 ML's, 2 SHS's, and 2 JJ's, put one in the RT with the single and the last in the CT.

Should make this thing even worse.

[Daryk]

I like my JagdPanther for this role...

[AlphaMirage]

I disagree Karack, smoke is needed to close with or withdraw from the enemy because Clantech weapons and their pilots are to good and will shred the mech otherwise.

Clanmechs also run hot and fast so they need the extra heat from infernos to slow them down or reduce incoming fire. I'll save the MLs for the Fire Javelin and Jenner. Although I will agree that SRMs might be better used on hover tanks I don't think most 3025 harassers or pegasii would survive long enough against cLPLs to deliver their ordnance

[Lagrange]

Dire Wolf vs. Deathwalker.  Anyone want to give odds?

However, there's only about a 60% chance for three head hits after six rounds. Assuming I've got the binomial formula right, that is.

You're right.  Using this, the formula is:
Hits  Headkill%
1          .46
2          6.2
3          17.8
4          32.3
5          46.8
6          59.7
7          70.4
8          78.8
9          85.1
10        89.7
So far from a sure thing, but also a decent chance of an early headkill.

Tanks, all of the tanks loaded down with tons of armor and autocannons,

Perhaps I don't appreciate tanks enough.  My impression is that they tend to end up quickly mobility-impaired which leaves them ineffective vs. faster units with longer range.

swarms of infantry lying in ambush

Decent in defense, but ineffective on offense.

and smart tactics like smoke and fire.

Makes sense.  It's not exhibited, but the Sniper can load smoke rounds which seems plausibly better---I'll update.

I present the Fencer, its a modified Shadow Hawk 2K/Gladiator meant to carry a handheld LRM until it closes within at least medium PPC range. Its almost half the cost of the Deathwalker but unlike that mech a Fencer can pace the heavy cavalry mechs the Clans favor, its jump jets give it great overland mobility, and it carries nearly max armor.

A handheld weapon seems like a great idea.  2xLRM-5s with a ton of ammo and a half ton of armor.

An idea: downgrade the PPC to a large laser, a medium laser, and... a heat sink? Two jump jets?, stick the SRM-6 and the LL in the legs and the ML in the head.   Now, the handheld weapon is compatible with all your weapons, so you don't drop it until you need to go to punches.

I'd favor a Black Hawk/Nova A which has the same maneuverability profile but does significantly more sustained damage at all ranges.  Nevertheless, it's interesting---more armor compensates somewhat.

I like my JagdPanther for this role...

The Thumper AC is good for elemental elimination, but it seems marginal against something like a Dire Wolf.  I went with a true artillery piece here because the diversity of rounds and additional damage & range seems pretty useful for these additional roles.

[AlphaMirage]

I'd give your Deathwalker an 80% chance against a Dire Wolf, that will diminish dramatically if you attract more than one Clan mech or one that moves faster (like say a Timber Wolf) and can close in six rounds as you only have one Sniper. If I knew that such a Tripod existed I would actually prefer to send out a Star of Light/Medium fast Hunter-Killers like Shadow Cats, Incubii, or something similar to bring more weapons on this abomination these spheroid barbarians call a Battlemech faster (and get those juicy GR or cERPPC Head caps). That is if I didn't just try to dive bomb it into oblivion with any Aerofighters I had on call, which would be my preferred choice, so we can get back to honorable duelling with these inferior savages.

For the Fencer I wouldn't use handheld LRMs and PPC in tandem with each other, its mostly a closing weapon to engage at long range during the initial advance and will potentially get blasted sooner rather than later (since any arm hit has a chance to destroy it). If we can get within 14 hexes of the enemy with only minor damage I consider that a huge win against Clantech. The Jump Jets are meant to bypass terrain obstacles in my way or take cover. The real mobility comes from the 8 hex run speed. Which can over time get me under Clan weapon's superior medium range profile and into my own. The difference between 15 vs 18 hexes max range can be huge against Clantech so I'd rather keep the PPC.

I figure the most common prey for such mechs would be Summoners, Hellbringers, and Storm Crows (which would actually be an interesting fight as that platform is highly optimized as is this). I would absolutely not take any IS Assault against any Clan Assault as the possibility of head capping is far to real at that level. Clan Assaults are to be pounded into scrap with artillery or peppered with LRMs whenever possible while their Lights (except for the Kit Fox, Adder, or Cougar) are to be strafed by aircraft or lured into minefields.

Defensively smoke SRM6s can theoretically break LOS or give me a 2 hex heavy smoke screen at the far end of my move speed (for a +4 to hit from the enemy vs a +2 for me) regardless of terrain availability. Smoke Artillery is less useful for the Deathwalker as you would have to sacrifice the full damage potential of the Sniper for minor utility and actually smoke SRMs provide a longer lasting smoke screen that takes up the same area.

Infernos will do an average of 8 heat per hit and most Clan mechs run at the high end of their heat curve so that could put them into shutdown territory if they didn't hold their fire. If you are so lucky as to have a shutdown Clan mech you are in a good position to finish them off with punches or knock them over with a kick. Also these Infernos will slow them down allowing the Fencer to use its walk speed and firing modifiers against the Clan adversary assuming they do not jump (even if they do it will heat that mech up more in the process and impose a higher attacker penalty). This will eventually spiral out of control as a Fencer can basically heat lock a Clan mech or seriously degrade the speed and accuracy making it a battle of simple attrition between IS armor vs clantech weapons. Two Fencers almost certainly would be able to force the Clan pilot to attempt a withdraw or risk ammo explosions and shutdown rolls. I have killed a pristine Dire Wolf with two Points of Salamanders this way.

For the tanks the same is true, on offense you have hovercraft like the Pegasus or Harasser that you can load with infernos and smoke. Unfortunately they lack the killing power necessary to take down any but the smallest Clan mechs even paired so you will need a PPC armed tank like the LTV-4 or something like the Saracen with its AC/20. In built up environments like hills tanks can take down Clan mechs when properly teamed up. Here the superior mobility and long ranges of Clantech is mitigated somewhat by terrain while the L1 size, hull-down, and indirect fire rules favor vehicles (as most MBTs mount LRMs indirect HE or even smoke can be a major advantage) particularly when operating defensively in a formation where their vulnerable sides can be protected by allies or better yet mines.

[Lagrange]

I'd give your Deathwalker an 80% chance against a Dire Wolf,

That's somewhat higher than my estimate actually.  I expect it's hard to get precise here because the context of terrain really matters.

that will diminish dramatically if you attract more than one Clan mech

I agree.

or one that moves faster (like say a Timber Wolf) and can close in six rounds as you only have one Sniper.

A Timber Wolf is a solid design, but I don't see it as having an advantage.  Beyond the minimum range of artillery it has no more firepower than the Dire Wolf.  Inside the minimum range, it has marginally more firepower (49?) than the Deathwalker's medium laser array (40) but if it loses initiative it's often possible for the Deathwalker to either open the range (allowing the Sniper to work on a head kill) or close to punching range where expected damage favors the Deathwalker.  In either case, the Deathwalker has a fare bit more armor.

If I knew that such a Tripod existed I would actually prefer to send out a Star of Light/Medium fast Hunter-Killers like Shadow Cats, Incubii, or something similar to bring more weapons on this abomination these spheroid barbarians call a Battlemech faster (and get those juicy GR or cERPPC Head caps). That is if I didn't just try to dive bomb it into oblivion with any Aerofighters I had on call, which would be my preferred choice, so we can get back to honorable duelling with these inferior savages.

What's the gap to the Deathwalker being an honorable opponent?

For the Fencer I wouldn't use handheld LRMs and PPC in tandem with each other, its mostly a closing weapon to engage at long range during the initial advance and will potentially get blasted sooner rather than later (since any arm hit has a chance to destroy it).

The odds aren't high though---about a 4.6% chance/attack of hitting the handheld weapon, and if an opponent does 10 damage to destroy it, that's an expected 200+ damage before the handheld weapon is destroyed.  Your probably dead at that point anyways.  And if happens by chance earlier, an extra effectively-10 points of armor is actually pretty good.

I would absolutely not take any IS Assault against any Clan Assault as the possibility of head capping is far to real at that level.

Except maybe the Deathwalker?

Defensively smoke SRM6s can theoretically break LOS or give me a 2 hex heavy smoke screen at the far end of my move speed (for a +4 to hit from the enemy vs a +2 for me) regardless of terrain availability. Smoke Artillery is less useful for the Deathwalker as you would have to sacrifice the full damage potential of the Sniper for minor utility and actually smoke SRMs provide a longer lasting smoke screen that takes up the same area.

I agree it's less useful than the SRM-6 with smoke rounds.  It seems plausibly more useful than a 4th round of standard ammo, at least in some combats.

Two Fencers almost certainly would be able to force the Clan pilot to attempt a withdraw or risk ammo explosions and shutdown rolls.

At 2:1, favoring the Fencers seems reasonable to me.

For the tanks the same is true...

I haven't seen a good tanks vs. mechs battle.   The tons of guns aspect of the tank side does seem potentially compelling. 

[AlphaMirage]

The dishonorable nature stems from the artillery additionally it can get and stay just outside direct fire range of the Sniper forcing it to suffer a 1 turn delay and an almost 10 hex circle of uncertainty compared to the more reasonable less than 6 hexes of a Dire Wolf

[Lagrange]

The dishonorable nature stems from the artillery

Ah, interesting---I hadn't realized that all forms of AE damage violate Zellbrigen. 

additionally it can get and stay just outside direct fire range of the Sniper forcing it to suffer a 1 turn delay and an almost 10 hex circle of uncertainty compared to the more reasonable less than 6 hexes of a Dire Wolf

I'm not quite following the 'it' here, but I'm guessing you are thinking about the Timber Wolf?  That could walk backwards at the same speed the Deathwalker could move forward.   So, for example, if a Timber Wolf arranges to be 23 hexes away when it loses initiative, then the Deathwalker could at most reach range 18 with forward movement (to short for direct fire) or 26 with backward movement.  Alternatively, if the Timber Wolf wins initiative, it could arrange to be at range 18.  This seems like a fair weakness to point out.  There are three responses I see.

• Obviously terrain (and indirect fire potential) matters here, with many combats not occurring on a flat plane.
• You can direct fire at a hex 17 hexes away, miss, and scatter to a hex 23 hexes away, causing damage 24 hexes away.  The odds of success obviously aren't great.
• A faster artillery mech like the Deathrunner (below) may simply be more appropriate in this situation.
  

Code: [Select]

Deathrunner

Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 300 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
     Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     3 Medium Laser
     1 Sniper
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-F-F-D
Cost: 11,637,500 C-bills

Type: Deathrunner
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 75
Battle Value: 1,385

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  7.5
Engine                        300 Fusion             19
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6(8)
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink                     10                      0
Gyro                                                  3
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  231                  14.5

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Head                    3         9   
     Center Torso            23        35   
     Center Torso (rear)               11   
     R/L Torso               16        24   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  8   
     R/L Arm                 12        24   
     R/L Leg                 16        32   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                   Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
Medium Laser                  CT        1        3       1.0 
Supercharger                  CT        1        -       2.0 
Sniper                        RT        20       10      20.0 
Cluster Sniper Ammo (30)      LA        3        -       3.0 
Medium Laser                  LT        1        3       1.0 
Medium Laser                  HD        1        3       1.0   
If a Timber Wolf tries to stay 20 hexes away and backs up 5 when it loses initiative, the Deathrunner could trigger the supercharger to run forward 8, closing the range to 17, enough for direct fire.  Of course, the odds of hitting decline if you are shooting on the run, but even misses have a decent chance of hitting.   Given this, a Timber Wolf might plausibly want to close instead since the Deathrunner is a significantly less capable close combatant than the Deathwalker.  However, while closing there's a fair chance that a Timber Wolf will take a shot or two to the head, and then any punch (it can deliver 2/round) ends the combat.

[AlphaMirage]

I think the issue with the Deathrunner is that it cannot withstand Clantech weaponry long enough to probably kill a Clan mech unlike arguably the Deathwalker might be able to. This is true of the Fencer as well but you can get almost get 3 Fencers for the price of one Deathrunner (although they are comparable in BV) and they both would have to rely on smoke or terrain to close within effective range. That one turn delay beyond 18 really hurts artillery in the Battletech universe. Sure scatter and cluster munitions can be helpful but unless you have lots of tubes to bracket an area its tough to recommend artillery against more mobile small foes like Battlemechs as opposed to big slow units like the Dire Wolf that hunker down in heavy woods and thus can be precisely engaged. You could also get 4 Marksman SPA tanks for the same price or two for close to it in BV dramatically increasing your lethality against Clanners at minimal cost in base mobility and actually a huge advantage in survivability as you can mask it against low hills.

[Lagrange]

On a cost basis, the Deathrunner does seem prohibitive---it's more expensive than even the Deathwalker. 

An enhanced run of 8 should be enough keep ranges within 17 for clan heavies?

The lack of a convincing close assault solution does seem like a serious issue.  31 damage at point blank range isn't very convincing.

[Karack Blackstone]

So after thinking about this for a bit...

SRM's can fire smoke rounds is new to me.

I do play Clan Wolf (in Exile, Warden), so I guess I just haven't seen it yet.

However, the more I think about it, the SRM 6 Fencer versus my version MIGHT be best in combination.

If two factories could be built, one for Fencers, one for my Fencer, drop the SRM 6 and ammo, add +2 JJ's, balanced placement, 2 ML's, and 2 SHS's, in a combined Lance with 2 of each, that's a good smoke screen to cover a decent squad infantry scaled up tactical setup. My hypothesis is that while the SRM'ed Fencers can cover them all, the ones with ML's can get into the smoke screen and just fire the ML's and JJ around. The problem with BOTH variants of the Fencer is that in close, they lack the dissipation to deal with an alpha as the PPC and JJ's is already max cooling mounted.

Now what I do love is that given the above, a mixed Lance would be rather nasty if the unit works together rather than just operates as individuals.

The SRM 6 Fencer does somewhat confuse me however in that, given the SRM 6 has only 9 hexes of range, the VAST majority of Clantech weaponry can hit their target at ranges further than that. Thus why I proposed the refit I did. It does make sense to have such a weapon, however it would mean attrition mech tactics instead.

While Alpha Strike is not a direct one to one of Battletech, in this case a Clan force would just face as many of my Fencers as can be fit into the same BV as the opfor., if able, stop at 24, and then start upping some G/P skill ratings. And then pray.

...

To me, the single largest issue of Introtech IS mechs versus the Clans is that outside of sheer volume, the Clans JUST win.

And again, the above point of only 9 hexes of smoke cover range while most Clan mechs carry at least one 20+ hex weapon, at least twice the range, really drives this point home,.

[Karack Blackstone]

3050 IS Mech. Advanced Rules.

Freeman

Code: [Select]

Freeman

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-D-A
Production Year: 3025
Cost: 5,195,807 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,480

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    2  Medium Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      91 points                5.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                275                      15.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   2.50
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             13(26)                    3.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           28       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           19       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18       
                                             L/R Leg     13           26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Pulse Laser                           HD        4         1         2.00
Medium Pulse Laser                           CT        4         1         2.00
ER PPC                                       RT        15        3         7.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 31

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 15
5j         3       3       1       0      2     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Once in close, first turn alpha and JJ. Second, don't fire one MPL. Third, alpha and JJ again. Fourth, same as second.

Basically, every odd turn, alpha and JJ. Every even turn, fire the ER PPC, 1 MPL, and JJ. Repeat.

Again, advanced rules.

I will likely edit in my basic Tourney legal and then intro 3050 design shortly.

Edit:

Freeman 3050 TL

Code: [Select]

Freeman 3050 TL

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-D-A
Production Year: 3025
Cost: 5,102,807 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,542

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  PPC
    4  Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      91 points                5.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                275                      15.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   2.50
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             13(26)                    3.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           28       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           19       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18       
                                             L/R Leg     13           26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser                                 HD        3         1         1.00
Medium Laser                                 CT        3         1         1.00
PPC                                          RT        10        3         7.00
Medium Laser                                 RT        3         1         1.00
Medium Laser                                 LT        3         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 29

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 15
5j         3       3       1       0      2     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Freeman 3025 IT

Code: [Select]

Freeman 3050 IT

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Introductory
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-D-A
Production Year: 3025
Cost: 4,873,407 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,380

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  PPC
    2  Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      91 points                5.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                275                      15.50
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 5 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT                                   2.50
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             15                        5.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 184                 11.50

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           28       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  7         
                                           L/R Torso     13           19       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  7         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18       
                                             L/R Leg     13           26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser                                 HD        3         1         1.00
Medium Laser                                 CT        3         1         1.00
PPC                                          RT        10        3         7.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 33

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 14
5j         2       2       1       0      2     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


[AlphaMirage]

Well the way that I figure you use 2x LRM5 handhelds to deal with the 17+ range bracket as both sides will be shooting at long range that far out (pulses excluded as frankly cLPLs are about as close to best weapon you can get in the game and I can't beat that with introtech).

Once you close within 16 you drop the handheld and shoot smoke ahead of you 9 hexes. Then when your next move comes up you can move 7-8 hexes into said smoke screen for additional cover generating anywhere from no LOS regardless of how much range you have to a +7 to hit (3 for move, 4 for cover).

You continue this until you can close within 12 and into the PPC's medium range bracket and honestly if you want you can just keep generating smoke until you are within 7 and can then switch to either normal SRMs or Infernos (which will both slow a Clan mech and make their shots worse which is more useful at short range). If a Fencer closes within a PPC's minimum range it would only be to punch the Clan mech. Preferably in the face twice (for 6 damage a piece) decapitating it and providing some sweet salvage for your formation.

SRM6 is actually the best smoke launcher (besides maybe a MML/7) because its damage rounds up and anything that does 20 damage generates heavy smoke instead of light smoke and so many units possess them already. Additionally it does so for 6 rounds providing cover for other units that entire time as long as it is not too windy. You can use this to screen slower moving mechs that would otherwise be ripped apart by long ranged clan weapons (which actually makes AC/2 wielding mechs good partners for a Fencer). Smoke LRMS are frankly not as good (beyond the ability to fire indirect which is nice) with the best they can do being on par with what a SRM6 can do but for ever so slightly longer.

[Karack Blackstone]

If you're going to keep the Fencer's PPC in the torso and still use the handheld 2 LRM 5 pod, then drop the PPC and put in 4 ML's and 2 SHS. I'm not sure what to do with the spare ton yet...

[AlphaMirage]

and shorten my range further? I think not, I will accept the better range vs damage profile at 5-6 hexes to force the enemy to cERML medium range.

The only thing that might be an improvement and it is a might would be to put the SRM6 in the legs so I can use it and the LRM until I get within 12 but I don't intend to give my enemy LOS to me most of the time so the handheld would be firing indirect.

[Karack Blackstone]

Too bad the PPC won't fit in a leg...

[Daryk]

and shorten my range further? I think not, I will accept the better range vs damage profile at 5-6 hexes to force the enemy to cERML medium range.

The only thing that might be an improvement and it is a might would be to put the SRM6 in the legs so I can use it and the LRM until I get within 12 but I don't intend to give my enemy LOS to me most of the time so the handheld would be firing indirect.

Wait... The CRUD has a use AS iS?? ???

[AlphaMirage]

Yes, I have actually used the smoke SRMs in the Crusader to break LOS, typically from other LRM boats, in order to shoot someone else

[Daryk]

Mind BLOWN...  :o

[Lagrange]

The mobile cover approach seems reasonably compelling to me, except why not use it all way into close combat range?

Considering Heavy Smoke with a 3 hex diameter, the options are:
Any artillery (3 turns, indirect fire)
SRM-6 (6 turns)
LRM-15 (7 turns, indirect fire)
LRM-20 (10 turns, indirect fire)

Of these, SRM-6 is surely the lightest.  However, there is good reason to additionally consider long range options as they allow you to fully shut down (not merely penalize) attacks from an elevated position.  For example, heavy smoke around a sniper's nest and an additional intervening heavy smoke next to you provides LOS shutdown.   

[Karack Blackstone]

The Fencer replacing its PPC with an IS LRM 15 fits.

However, where's the tonnage for ammo found?

Edit: Drop some SHS's. Half the heat. Okay.

[AlphaMirage]

I mean that is certainly valid however LRM smoke does take a turn to take effect and can be walked around so it does have some limits. Typically I would use it to shoot behind or to the sides of whomever my target is in order to isolate them.

You could use smoke to reach close combat but at the same time I'd rather start launching infernos at 6 hexes. This will penalize my adversary by slowing them down (for an eventually punch or kick), hurt their accuracy (a +2 is nothing to sneeze at when in close range and is quite achievable with one Inferno SRM6 strike), and reduce their damage output because they will have to ration their best weapons (which are the high heat energy based ones) or risk shutdown or immobility. At 6 we are roughly 'equal' in the range department (again cPulses are too good I can't beat them with introtech) if not in the damage department.

I also like the 10 point punch of a PPC rather than a cluster. We are trying to drop the enemy not sandblast them also we could call in supporting arms (particularly if you are within the PPCs minimum range or the enemy shutdown)  to do that from the safety of their smoke screens and you want to get close. Staying at 7 is likely death and we are still looking for a melee finish because otherwise we are playing a dangerous range game that the Clanner will win.

[Lagrange]

I also like the 10 point punch of a PPC rather than a cluster.

You have a good technique for getting in close with minimal damage but are using a weapon designed for long range combat with a significant minimum range modifier.   Instead, you could do twice as much damage at range 3 with 4 MLs + 2 heat sinks (and another free ton).  Or, you could still use smoke at that range and instead optimize for range 1 where SLs allow you to inflict >x3 damage.   I believe an IS mech optimized for close assault can compete with most clan tech designs in terms of raw damage output.

[AlphaMirage]

Hmmm I think we have different ideas of what constitutes Long Range in this fight. My goal is to get within MY medium range in order to engage using my portable cover. Not necessarily to close although that would be nice particularly if I can heat them up slowing them down enough to get into melee. If that is not possible though I intend to Fence at 5-6 hexes to keep those nasty clan medium lasers at some disadvantage.

The base PPC maybe a long range weapon in the Inner Sphere but it is a pitifully middle-range one against Clantech. Its equivalent damaging cERLL reaches 7 hexes beyond its max range and has its Medium range enclosing most of my Long. It could stand still and get at two, possibly three free shots against me if I couldn't use cover before I could reasonably threaten it. If the Clan mech felt threatened they could backpedal giving me an average of 3-4 hexes of approach each turn. It will take something like four turns before I could close with the mech and the PPC can fight at those ranges while the ML cannot.

As for SLs I would rather use something like the Assassin, Jenner, or Cicada loaded down with SLs (or MLs) as it can close faster than most Clan mechs could escape unlike the Fencer. A 5/8 could not reasonably expect to rely on such close range firepower.

[Charistoph]

As for SLs I would rather use something like the Assassin, Jenner, or Cicada loaded down with SLs (or MLs) as it can close faster than most Clan mechs could escape unlike the Fencer. A 5/8 could not reasonably expect to rely on such close range firepower.

Yeah, with 5/8, there's an 80 tonner that will keep up with you, to say nothing about most of the Heavies.  And with most of the Mediums running faster than that, as well.

[AlphaMirage]

So the Facehugger Assassin can move 7/11 and may carry an SRM-6 loaded with Smoke Ammo in its hands. It utilizes the exact same tactics as the Fencer but walks 7 instead of running it. Not that it matters much since its only weapons are six small lasers. 5 of which can be used while carrying its handheld. You could exchange four of the six for two medium lasers and fire everything around the handheld.

Code: [Select]

Facehugger FCH-1
Mass: 40 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 280 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 75.6 kph
Maximum Speed: 118.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
     Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     6 Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3024
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-E-D-D
Cost: 3,460,193 C-bills

Type: Facehugger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Tonnage: 40
Battle Value: 841

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    4
Engine                        280 Fusion             16
Walking MP: 7
Running MP: 11
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sink                     10                      0
Gyro                                                  3
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  134                   8.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Head                    3         9     
     Center Torso            12        18   
     Center Torso (rear)               5     
     R/L Torso               10        16   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  3     
     R/L Arm                 6         12   
     R/L Leg                 10        20   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
2 Small Lasers           LL        2        1       1.0   
Small Laser              CT        1        1       0.5   
Jump Jet                 CT        1        -       0.5   
2 Jump Jets              RT        2        -       1.0   
2 Jump Jets              LT        2        -       1.0   
2 Small Lasers           RL        2        1       1.0   
Small Laser              HD        1        1       0.5  
   

[Lagrange]

Perhaps the disparity is that I haven't given up on being able to go 1-on-1 with Clan machines via superior designs.

If you have a 5/8/5 mech vs. a 5/8 heavy, it seems either the 5/8/5 can close or the 5/8 must turn it's back to the enemy and run away.  Running away apparently also violates Zellbrigen, so it seems plausible that a 5/8/5 can typically close on a 5/8 clanner at a rate of 3/turn.  That's 9(!) turns to reach melee range in general, but perhaps feasible with ample smoke?  On the other hand, the use of smoke may well violate Zellbrigen as well, since it's 'intentionally moving out of line of sight'.

For a different take, consider something like the Sandblaster:

Code: [Select]

Sandblaster LAM

Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 220 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Improved (Prototype)
     Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     7 Small Laser
     18 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-F(F*)-X-X
Cost: 5,029,020 C-bills

Type: Sandblaster LAM
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,652

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  5.5
LAM Conversion Equipment                            5.5
Engine                        220 Fusion             10
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 6
AirMech Cruising MP: 18
AirMech Flanking MP: 27
Safe Thrust: 6
Max Thrust: 9
Heat Sink                     10                      0
Gyro                                                  3
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  184                  11.5

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Head                    3         9   
     Center Torso            18        27   
     Center Torso (rear)               8   
     R/L Torso               13        20   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  6   
     R/L Arm                 9         18   
     R/L Leg                 13        26   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo                        Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage
2 Machine Gun                      LL        2        0       1.0 
Machine Gun                        CT        1        0       0.5 
3 Prototype Improved Jump Jet      RT        3        -       1.5 
7 Machine Gun                      RT        7        0       3.5 
Machine Gun Ammo (200)             LA        1        -       1.0 
2 Double Heat Sink                 LA        6        -       2.0 
Machine Gun                        LA        1        0       0.5 
Double Heat Sink                   LT        3        -       1.0 
3 Prototype Improved Jump Jet      LT        3        -       1.5 
4 Machine Gun                      LT        4        0       2.0 
2 Machine Gun                      RL        2        0       1.0 
Machine Gun                        RA        1        0       0.5 
7 Small Laser                      RA        7        1       3.5 
It can WIGE in from range 27, and then unleash 7 small lasers and 18 machine guns for a close up damage potential of 57.  That's enough to be quite competitive with many clan mechs and the sandblasting aspect can potentially cause criticals.