Coming up with "Stats" for "Modular Quarters"

[Hellraiser]

So we've all wanted some stats for some form of berthing that you can add/subtract from a cargo bay to allow passengers w/o the extreme supply rates of just living in the cargo bay on cots.

Now obviously these items need to be worse than actual Quarters/Bays, but, I'm trying to come up with a decent penalty w/o going overboard or making them too cheap.

Let me know what your thoughts are.


#1 - The "Foot Bay" Quarters
This counts as a Foot Platoon-30 Bay but costs weighs 7 tons instead of 5.   (40% surcharge for being "Modular")

#2 - The "Small - Steerage" Quarters
This module counts as 10 Steerage Quarters (5 tons each) but weighs 70 Tons total.  (Same as 10 of the 2nd Class Quarters / 40% surcharge for being "Modular")

#3 - The "Small - 2nd Class" Quarters
This module counts as 10 2nd Class Quarters (7 tons each) but weighs 100 Tons total.   (40% surcharge for being "Modular")

#4 - The "Small - 1st Class" Quarters
This module counts as 10 1st Class Quarters (10 tons each) but weighs 150 Tons total.   (50% surcharge, because it's hard to make "Luxury, Modular")

#5 - The "Large - Steerage" Quarters
This module counts as 200 Steerage Quarters  (5 tons each) but weighs 1300 Tons total, slightly less than 200 of the 2nd Class Quarters.  (35% surcharge for being "Modular")


You could make dozens of modules really, but I felt like these 5 are a really solid "1-size fits all" selection.

You have 30-Man "Bay",   10-Man "Variable Trio Quarters",  & a 200-Man "Bulk Steerage"



I have not gotten into the C-Bills costs yet, since, well, that requires getting out the rule books & breaking down the formula for quarters & DS modifiers & coming up with a cost for these.
They will likely be pricey for the C-Bill cost of them, but, I also feel like the ability to customize a cargo bay has to be worth something.


Outside of C-Bills though,  do you all feel the "Modular" surcharge is an ok amount?
   (I started w/ Omni-25% Charge & went up since that is a weapon pod & this is living accommodations, more detail work IMO)

Do you see any reason for something outside of the 5 I listed?
I feel like 10-30-200 is good passenger size options & the 1300 tons of the block #5 is too large for many DS Bays so I didn't think there was a need to go bigger when a few multiples will do for something larger.


Let me know what you think.

[Gorgon]

Those weights look reasonable to me. And I do like you bunching them up in 10-packs for all quarter types and only one large module. Good job!

I imagine these similar to a modern field hospital - a number of containers make up a module, with some providing the physical quarters, others air filters, water recycling. All designed to fit and work together, but easy enough to break apart to make moving them in and out of a dropship's doors (or in and out of storage) feasible.

Personally, I'm wondering more about the time it would take to install or remove them than the c-bill cost. At a minimum, the standard cargo un/loading times would apply. But how much for the actual installment? Minutes? Hours?

[Hellraiser]

Personally, I'm wondering more about the time it would take to install or remove them than the c-bill cost. At a minimum, the standard cargo un/loading times would apply. But how much for the actual installment? Minutes? Hours?

Funny you should mention that.

I was thinking Cargo as the Start to load on board.
DOUBLE Cargo to "install" it?   Not sure if that is realistic but I'm just going w/ easy to calc figures here.
Finally the Techs/Astech powering up Mech portion for a "diagnostics/test".  (10-15 mins IIRC)

[RifleMech]

1300 tons? How would that be transported to the dropship and loaded?

If I were to have big units of quarters, I'd probably limit it to under 100 tons so they're more easily transported and loaded.
Crew and 2nd Class, 10 quarters 70 tons. (7 tons each)
Steerage Class, 14 quarters at 70 tons.  (5 tons each)
1st Class, 5 quarters at 50 tons. (10 tons each)
Luxury Class, 3 quarters at 45 tons. (15 tons each)
Ultra-luxury, 2 quarters at 40 tons.  (20 tons each)
and then add some tonnage to represent pumps, hoses, ductwork and wiring needed to connect to the dropships systems along with walkways and stairs if they're stacked.

Personally, I would just add 1 ton to each quarter and bay to represent the above. Just slide it in and hook it up. That way the ship only installs what it needs when it needs it. The problem is that we don't have bays for every infantry type. 

[Hellraiser]

1300 tons? How would that be transported to the dropship and loaded?

How does anything get moved on a dropship.
Up the ramp.   
But I see what your asking, I'd probably say that for that specific model it's a several smaller pieces.

If I were to have big units of quarters, I'd probably limit it to under 100 tons so they're more easily transported and loaded.
Crew and 2nd Class, 10 quarters 70 tons. (7 tons each)
Steerage Class, 14 quarters at 70 tons.  (5 tons each)
1st Class, 5 quarters at 50 tons. (10 tons each)
Luxury Class, 3 quarters at 45 tons. (15 tons each)
Ultra-luxury, 2 quarters at 40 tons.  (20 tons each)
and then add some tonnage to represent pumps, hoses, ductwork and wiring needed to connect to the dropships systems along with walkways and stairs if they're stacked.

1.  I didn't bother w/ Luxury at all because frankly these are designed for "bulk/mass" use.  Luxury doesn't need to "be added"  Luxury goes out & buys passage on a Princess Class Dropship.
2.  I don't actually consider these to be a single "giant block" but more like "modular homes" portions.
Really, something like 14 quarters of living space for the Steerage would be a fairly MASSIVE sized cargo structure if you figure a typical home is designed for 2-6.
My thought is they come in containers but you would need to do some wall installs bolt outer portions together, slide in inner walls.
So 150 tons of First Class/Officer might actually be 3/6 pieces at 50/25 tons each.  Based on the example from the Exodus anyway, they seemed like their were not just living out of cargo containers.

Personally, I would just add 1 ton to each quarter and bay to represent the above. Just slide it in and hook it up. That way the ship only installs what it needs when it needs it.

Yeah, I wanted a bit more penalty than 1 ton.

The problem is that we don't have bays for every infantry type. 

Not worried, I house rule everyone into foot bays if that is what the DS has standard.
Hell, my Battle Armor will stow the armor in cargo & sleep in Foot Bunks if they have to.

[Daryk]

As I said elsewhere, I don't see a reason for a mass penalty.  Sliding CONEX boxes (some with water and air recycling gear) into a cargo bay and hooking them up to each other shouldn't require a shipyard.

[Hellraiser]

You know, actually, I am now wondering about a single "size" of Container like mentioned above.

I'm thinking 60T  (carried via BM Recovery Flatbed)

50T of People & 20% (10T) penalty =   gives you 4 options below.   (Lower penalty doesn't feel steep enough)
10 Foot Platoons (50T)
10 Steerage  (50T)
7 Crew/2nd  (49T)  Rounded Up to 50
5 Officer/1st  (50T)


OR


100T  (Carried via Heavy BM Recovery Flatbed)

70T of People w/ 30T Modular Penalty   (It's steeper penalty but as long as it's not insane I'm okay w/ it)

14 Foot Platoons (70T)
14 Steerage  (70T)
10 Crew/2nd  (70T)
7 Officer/1st  (70T)


Then maybe toss in a "Large" module again that is truly several separate modules to slap together.

600T  Total  @  100  Per Module   *6  (Carried via Heavy BM Recovery Flatbed)

100 Steerage  (500T)  +  20%  Penalty  =  600T

[Hellraiser]

As I said elsewhere, I don't see a reason for a mass penalty.  Sliding CONEX boxes (some with water and air recycling gear) into a cargo bay and hooking them up to each other shouldn't require a shipyard.

Yes, we just don't have that in canon.

As for RL versions used at some 'hostile/temporary' bases, none of those Conex's are set up for Air/Water recycling & we don't have tonnage for what that would take anyway.
I mean, for those you walk out the door at ground level or onto a scaffolding to steps.
The air comes & goes.  You walk to a separate chow hall.
IDK, I feel like there would need to be a pretty hefty support structure if those became self sustaining.
Even the chow hall or medical facilities of a Union would suddenly be insufficient if you slapped 300T of "Crew Modules" onto it.
I figure something has to represent the extra infrastructure that would be needed for those people that isn't included in Ship Tonnage but is included in Life Support Pricing.

[Daryk]

The CONEXs I used when I drew my Manatee were of four kinds:
1) 8 racks in 2, 4-trooper rooms (with storage lockers)
2) 4 toilets, 2 sinks, 1 shower
3) Water Recycling
4) Air Conditioning (half-height containers on top of stacks of four of the other kinds)

The water containers were alternated with the heads in one stack of four (topped with air conditioning).  The bunks were stacked four high with an air conditioning half-container on top.  For officer and NCO bunks, the extra racks were either removed or simply left empty.

For chow, I turned one of the upper deck cargo areas into a galley and dining facility.

I didn't break down the tonnage per container, just totaled up the bunks and charged mass for the "bays".

[Hellraiser]

Okay, that is some great customized ideas & fluff there really.

I was more looking at something that could be a 1-size fits all right out of the box "component" that was all inclusive.

An actual "rulebook" item so to speak.

[Daryk]

Thanks!  And I totally agree with you that we should have something in canon along these lines.  Maybe in the next edition of the aerospace rules... :)

[Hellraiser]

The water containers were alternated with the heads in one stack of four (topped with air conditioning). 
The bunks were stacked four high with an air conditioning half-container on top.

I picture these being at least 5 long, maybe more.   Bunk-H2O-Bunk-H2O-Bunk for 20(25) blocks like tic-tac-toe

I also see the H2O "columns/stacks" alternating the top/bottom start point between each H2O "column" so that you have restrooms on each "floor/row"

2) 4 toilets, 2 sinks, 1 shower

Is that 1 shower stall or a full communal shower w/ several shower heads?
I'm asking because I feel like people spend way longer in the shower than they do using a toilet.  Only 1 makes for a long line at the showers.

[Daryk]

Just one shower stall per CONEX... the drawings are in my sig block... :)

They're short CONEXs, btw... ;)

[RifleMech]

How does anything get moved on a dropship.
Up the ramp.   
But I see what your asking, I'd probably say that for that specific model it's a several smaller pieces.

Then why not just have smaller units?

1.  I didn't bother w/ Luxury at all because frankly these are designed for "bulk/mass" use.  Luxury doesn't need to "be added"  Luxury goes out & buys passage on a Princess Class Dropship.

Which are pretty rare. A Monarch Dropship might want to add some once in a while though.

2.  I don't actually consider these to be a single "giant block" but more like "modular homes" portions.
Really, something like 14 quarters of living space for the Steerage would be a fairly MASSIVE sized cargo structure if you figure a typical home is designed for 2-6.
My thought is they come in containers but you would need to do some wall installs bolt outer portions together, slide in inner walls.
So 150 tons of First Class/Officer might actually be 3/6 pieces at 50/25 tons each.  Based on the example from the Exodus anyway, they seemed like their were not just living out of cargo containers.

In which case we're back to trailers and just hooking the up to the ships systems. How many people will fit in it will depend on it's size and how much room you give them. You can fit a few people into a 10x63 single wide and still have a space for couple bathrooms and a kitchen. At 2-6 people you're looking 1st Class to Luxury Class if not Ultra-Luxury Class.
The Exodus probably had better quarters than those on Battlestar Galactica's Freighter "Gemini" which sure look like shipping containers.

Yeah, I wanted a bit more penalty than 1 ton.

Too much added weight becomes unbelievable though. Think of it like hooking up an RV in an RV Park. You've got a hose for water, a hose for septic, and a cable for power. Then add a hose for air and couple lines to connect to the ships com. system. That doesn't weigh a whole lot. At 1 ton it's actually twice the weight of ATOW's .5 ton 6 person pop-up camper.

Not worried, I house rule everyone into foot bays if that is what the DS has standard.
Hell, my Battle Armor will stow the armor in cargo & sleep in Foot Bunks if they have to.

That's fine but like I said in the other thread it'll take time to get their gear out of the cargo bay and get it ready for use. If they're in a bay, they just get in and go. It's okay for just transportation but if they shouldn't be on a first in dropship if they need to get into combat quickly.

[Gorgon]

As I said elsewhere, I don't see a reason for a mass penalty.  Sliding CONEX boxes (some with water and air recycling gear) into a cargo bay and hooking them up to each other shouldn't require a shipyard.

To me, those extra containers with life support gear are exactly where the mass 'penalty' comes in. Let's say a 100 ton module for seven 2nd class quartes is actually 10 10-ton container (was smaller than the real world 20ft Container, but a canon example)  - 7 container hold one room each with built in AC and a small bathroom, two provide basic life support - air scrubbers, waste water reclamation - and one acts as kitchen / dining space vor the passengers. Some of those, like the dining area, might as well be expanding containers that can double or tripple their ground space when installed.


For my mental Image I look towards semi-mobile structures like field hospitals. They are made up of dozens of containers (up to 50 iirc for some models), but I would still consider them a 'module' in the sense that we are talking about here.


So for the Installation time one question would be if they're treated as containerized cargo.

[Daryk]

I'd only apply the time penalty for the class of refit.

[RifleMech]

To me, those extra containers with life support gear are exactly where the mass 'penalty' comes in. Let's say a 100 ton module for seven 2nd class quartes is actually 10 10-ton container (was smaller than the real world 20ft Container, but a canon example)  - 7 container hold one room each with built in AC and a small bathroom, two provide basic life support - air scrubbers, waste water reclamation - and one acts as kitchen / dining space vor the passengers. Some of those, like the dining area, might as well be expanding containers that can double or tripple their ground space when installed.


For my mental Image I look towards semi-mobile structures like field hospitals. They are made up of dozens of containers (up to 50 iirc for some models), but I would still consider them a 'module' in the sense that we are talking about here.


So for the Installation time one question would be if they're treated as containerized cargo.

The thing is that quarters and bays already include those things in their weight. Fluff might put them in different locations but the weight is still included. So adding more "self contained" versions should only require hooking them up to the ships systems.

Basically, we're taking a camper trailer or RV onto a fairy and staying in it instead of a ship's cabin. That shouldn't require a spaceyard to install and an extra 43% tonnage increase for hook ups.

[Hellraiser]

The thing is that quarters and bays already include those things in their weight. Fluff might put them in different locations but the weight is still included. So adding more "self contained" versions should only require hooking them up to the ships systems. 

Basic quarters are built into the structure of the ship, so, essentially internal walls only, for the most part. 
No Hard Point corners.  Walls are shared w/ the room next door, etc etc.
Wouldn't that be lighter than something that has the entire exterior wall (cargo container) with reinforced structure to handle being able to be picked up & dropped off with cranes & fork lifts etc etc.

Ships have Internal Structure to add things to.
Portable Quarters would need something as "structure" IMHO.

Frankly if they don't have some sort of penalty to them then they are flat out better than normal quarters & I'm not OK w/ that for balance.

[Daryk]

I've only proposed them as Bay quality, so they're 10 times worse for consumption rate.  That's good enough for me.

[Hellraiser]

I've only proposed them as Bay quality, so they're 10 times worse for consumption rate.  That's good enough for me.

Yeah, I have those up there, but I wanted to give a few options in terms of Bay/Quarters & total size since buying OR building in bulk is usually cheaper.


I mean, you could have them be 2 quarter blocks, but, then your either having to shoehorn in bathrooms for 2 guys or, your having to have an entire separate bathroom like you have.

Which I like btw, it's a great way to have it be 1 big container "block".

For example, using your idea,  something like,  3 "squad" containers at 10-cots each + 1 water + 1 bathrooms + 1 "Dayroom/LTs.Office/Chowhall tables".
Not an actual chowhall, but maybe some form of partial kitchenette & tables that are multi-use.

That total of 6 containers + ACs on top could (9) could be a nice 3 long, 2.5 tall section.

For the larger "Quarters" you might have only 2-4 man rooms but enough total up to be your say 100T "block" that also includes some AC/Water/Rec models.

[Daryk]

I was figuring 4.5 containers tall because that's about how tall a 'mech is... ;)

[Hellraiser]

I was figuring 4.5 containers tall because that's about how tall a 'mech is... ;)

Makes sense, I was just going w/ 30 people for the "foot bay" with 10 per container.

My idea could be flipped however to be taller going 3.5*2 at least.

Though.... Probably a good idea to be shorter, because, remember it has to be "trucked/craned/forklift" moved into place.

Don't want to be all "it says it should fit" per the manual sir.   (Are you accounting for the flatbed truck it's on private?)

[Daryk]

Heh... I went with half heights for the AC units to account for the cranes... ;)

[RifleMech]

Basic quarters are built into the structure of the ship, so, essentially internal walls only, for the most part. 
No Hard Point corners.  Walls are shared w/ the room next door, etc etc.
Wouldn't that be lighter than something that has the entire exterior wall (cargo container) with reinforced structure to handle being able to be picked up & dropped off with cranes & fork lifts etc etc.

Ships have Internal Structure to add things to.
Portable Quarters would need something as "structure" IMHO.

Frankly if they don't have some sort of penalty to them then they are flat out better than normal quarters & I'm not OK w/ that for balance.

What you're describing is fixed equipment. Bays and Quarters are OMNI Pod Capable. Each of the configurations for the Adelante Train has quarters, bays, or passenger seating. So the bays/quarters can be self contained units. They are just picked up, put in place, bolted down and hooked up. Which goes along with TM's fluff for them.

Infantry bays, include basic life support (air filters and conditioning that draw from the vehicle’s external environment or an internal ship-wide life support apparatus), basic sleeping arrangements (such as bunks, cots or simple pads), a communal waste facility, and even food and equipment stowage compartments that allow for a bit more comfort and longer hauls. Infantry bays can even provide proper anchor-age for the infantry unit’s gear, based on its type.

Since Dropships aren't OMNI capable, I can see arguing for some added weight for running lines from the bays/quarters to the ship and scaffolding if you stack them. That shouldn't end up weighting that much though. A flat 1 ton per quarter/bay is being generous. After all people in a cargo bay don't increase in weight. What increases in weight is the amount of consumables that are needed. People in a cargo bay use more than those in a bay and those in a bay use more than those in quarters. Why should their quarters/bays increase in weight when their weight already includes what they need?

So give them the OMNI Pod price increase with the modular time to install. Then figure out the amount of tonnage needed for consumables. Only if necessary give them a flat weight increase for connections instead of rising percentage. 1 ton of wiring and plumbing would have a harder time handling 30 people than 1. It goes along with the fluff and rules in that bays are worse than quarters.

[Daryk]

I've got a related question up in the rules forum about this... we'll see what TPTB say...

[RifleMech]

Sounds good. I hope we get a quick reply. I'm still waiting on some questions.

[idea weenie]

I could see the following options for Modular Quarters:
- 50-ton variant (for being strapped on top of a Light Vehicle Bay)
- 100-ton variant (for being strapped on top of a Heavy Vehicle Bay, or into a Mech or ASF Bay)

Phrase them as multi-part to explain how they can be loaded into a Dropship easily, but the whole thing won't work unless all the components are in place.  So if you have only received/installed 40 tons of a 50-ton variant, then its support capacity is zero.  Larger units are more efficient on a per-ton basis, but still have to have all pieces in place in order to work (so if only 50 tons of the 100-ton variant have been delivered, it will not operate at the 50-ton variant level).

Hope your Quartermasters are keeping track of all the pieces, or that the last piece didn't get into a fender-bender while going across traffic requiring the piece's confiscation as part of the accident investigation.

[RifleMech]

 

That sounds even more complicated and overkill when you only need a couple of bays/quarters.  The big problem is how complicated the rules make modifying a dropship. Somethings I can see needing a spaceyard for but not adding bays/quarters into a cargo bay.

I know I've mentioned this before but if the Gray Death Legion can turn their damaged dropship into a steamship and back without a spaceyard, customizing a dropship shouldn't be that difficult. Unless you're wanting to install viewports you're not even changing the hull. Just hooking things up in the cargo bay.

[glitterboy2098]

IIRC a standard cargo container in BT is 10 tons, so that feels like what the standard should be. perhaps build it as a 10 ton trailer? i'm going with wheeled, since that makes sense to me. (basically a 10 ton hi tech camper trailer) we'll just assume the wheels are either retractable or easily removed and stowed for mounting in the ship.

that would put 2 tons into structure and a minimal power supply (lets say fuel cell?) 1 ton for environmental sealing (basic life support), leaving 7 tons for stuff.

you can fit 2 MASH units or 2 field kitchens and 1 ton of cargo into that space, or 1 smallcraft/Dropship grade foot infantry bay and 2 tons of cargo.

[Daryk]

I think two TEUs is a little small for 30 people...