"Alien" Combat vehicle

[Vehrec]

This is a bit of an odd duck-based loosely on an alien design from another game.  It's...well, it's intended to be a use-anywhere tank which can operate in hard vacuum or under 50 meters of water, which has low maintenance and nothing that can really break and only needs to resupply to re-up it's hydrogen for the fuel-cell (stored not as slush or compressed gas, but as metallic hydrogen that you very carefully peel a bit off at a time.) and the food for the crew.  Armed with a pulse laser, it's able to keep firing all day-or until it runs low on energy in it's power boosters.

Of course, this all comes at a price.  It carries about as much weight in heat sinks or environmental sealing and amphibious movement as it does armor.  It doesn't carry any secondary weapons, just the one pulse laser.  And in B-tech, the fusion equivalent design would be about 20 tons lighter and more capable...but in it's own settings, fusion engines smaller than about 500 tons don't exist, so you get this awkward compromise design.

Code: [Select]

Onnet Type 014

Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 240 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     1 Large Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-C
Cost: 2,670,000 C-bills

Type: Onnet
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 847

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        240 Fuel Cell          14
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   10                      9
Control Equipment:                                  3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    1.0
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor (Ferro)          188                  10.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         51   
     R/L Side               6/6      33/33   
     Rear                    6         26   
     Turret                  6         45   


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location    Tonnage   
Large Pulse Laser             Turret       7.0     
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     Body        6.0     
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     Body        2.5     



[DevianID]

Any reason it has to be 60 tons, or has to have that much armor?  Like, are you working off a 60 ton image?

You can do a 20 ton, environmentally sealed fully amphibious 4/6 tank with a medium pulse laser and 71 points of armor, if you just want a go anywhere robust armored vehicle.

At 60 tons, and limited amphibious, with a short ranged large pulse laser but a lot of armor, im having trouble seeing the vision.  It not really a swarm vehicle, its too environmentally specialized for that.  It has a lot of armor relative to other vehicles, but isnt meant to pound away at long range--even with the sealing, you are gonna get breached pretty quick in your chosen environment, so all that armor seems overkill/wasted... I dont think you will survive more then 4 hits in a vacuum, so 188 armor feels ambitious.  4/6 is paying for some speed but 4/6 isnt very fast, so you arnt scouting or chasing anything down in the harsh environments.
An ER large laser, or PPC, both slot in and provide more range which is really important in vacuum fights, to act like a more normal tank.  Or, a large laser like a bulldog saves several tons for backup weapons or to reduce the size from 60 tons.  I think I would go smaller/cheaper, and/or longer ranged, if you expect vacuum and underwater fighting.  An LRM5 and LRT5, with a large laser, kinda like a bulldog look, would allow you to breach from farther away.

Is there a picture I can see?, maybe if I see the OG design itll make more sense.

[Sabelkatten]

I don't know if I've got this right, but... Weird rules interaction?

Amphibious only allows surface movement, right?

Environmental sealing allows ground movement along bottom (like a mech), right?

What happens if you turn off the amphibious equipment to move along the bottom, and then turn it on? Impossible to do? Vehicle pops to the surface like a cork? Vehicle turns into a submarine? A naked singularity is created and the planet implodes?

[Vehrec]

Any reason it has to be 60 tons, or has to have that much armor?  Like, are you working off a 60 ton image?

You can do a 20 ton, environmentally sealed fully amphibious 4/6 tank with a medium pulse laser and 71 points of armor, if you just want a go anywhere robust armored vehicle.

At 60 tons, and limited amphibious, with a short ranged large pulse laser but a lot of armor, im having trouble seeing the vision.  It not really a swarm vehicle, its too environmentally specialized for that.  It has a lot of armor relative to other vehicles, but isnt meant to pound away at long range--even with the sealing, you are gonna get breached pretty quick in your chosen environment, so all that armor seems overkill/wasted... I dont think you will survive more then 4 hits in a vacuum, so 188 armor feels ambitious.  4/6 is paying for some speed but 4/6 isnt very fast, so you arnt scouting or chasing anything down in the harsh environments.
An ER large laser, or PPC, both slot in and provide more range which is really important in vacuum fights, to act like a more normal tank.  Or, a large laser like a bulldog saves several tons for backup weapons or to reduce the size from 60 tons.  I think I would go smaller/cheaper, and/or longer ranged, if you expect vacuum and underwater fighting.  An LRM5 and LRT5, with a large laser, kinda like a bulldog look, would allow you to breach from farther away.

Is there a picture I can see?, maybe if I see the OG design itll make more sense.

  There's not a picture, no, but there is a description, spread out across several forum pages and posts.  I'll see if I can round it all up into something short and coherent, though that will take some time.  But it uses a pulse laser because the original one uses a pulse laser, because every tank in it's setting uses either a pulse laser or a railgun.  Railguns are for home defense tanks though, so the expeditionary tank needs a pulse laser.  It has ten tons of armor so that a power-armor laser can't just poke holes through it all day, same for IFV lasers.  Importantly, in it's own setting, a pulse-laser is not short range but is instead able to penetrate different classes of targets at different ranges-against tanks, it's got about 1 km of range, against IFVs, 2-3 kilometers.  I think the key to all this is this description of doctrine.

Laser Battlefield Armored Warfare: Formalized doctrinal improvements to focus on the inherent limitations and concerns of a laser battlefield have been documented and moved to direct consideration. Range limitations of all laser systems including vehicle ones typically preclude engagements by vehicles of equivalent armor across frontal aspects with reasonable systems. This continues to infantry with closer range combat universally seen as more lethal on all sides as plating rapidly scales down in effectiveness at less than a hundred meters. In response to these considerations, combat is reshaped significantly with armor closing if at all able to avoid engagements becoming indecisive long-range skirmish engagements. (Alien Derived) (Doctrine) (New 47 AE)

As for tonnage, it's probably lighter than the 80 ton tank destroyers that were made to fight the similar expeditionary tanks of one alien invasion force.

Type 46 "Fragarach'' Tank Destroyer: A fixed gun tank destroyer weighing almost eighty tons with a massive onboard battery system and a light generator system made to slowly trickle charge the general vehicle. The onboard 6 MW generator is made to power the four 1MW drive motors along with recharging the main gun over five minutes when necessary with a massive use of diesel fuel oil. The tank is not expected to use the feature outside of emergencies, but the dual drive system allows for it to be used outside support assets. Frontal armor protection is sufficient to resist tank firepower on the upper plate when emplaced and dug in, but the lower plate remains vulnerable to IFV fire. All-around protection from rifle fire has been achieved through the use of applique armor kits, with the goal of the program being the firing of a 12kg armature at 10 km/s. Railgun operation is highly dangerous and the systems onboard are unreliable but the Type 46 is the first machine to offer a genuine threat to enemy armor.

I don't know if I've got this right, but... Weird rules interaction?

Amphibious only allows surface movement, right?

Environmental sealing allows ground movement along bottom (like a mech), right?

What happens if you turn off the amphibious equipment to move along the bottom, and then turn it on? Impossible to do? Vehicle pops to the surface like a cork? Vehicle turns into a submarine? A naked singularity is created and the planet implodes?

Huh, you know, I put it on to give it a better 'unsticking' mechanism so they didn't become hopelessly bogged down any time it did a deep crossing but...yeah, it's kinda unclear.  Maybe I should just remove that bit.  I could shrink it down to 7 tons of armor, 45 tons of total mass with that.  I'd just thin the sides down to hardly anything and the back down to yikes.  50 frontal/15 side armor is plenty, right?

[DevianID]

So to be nerdy, 4mw of drive power is a 5000+ horsepower 80 ton tank destroyer.  So assuming the tank destroyer has modern tank suspension and those electric engines behave sensibly, that 4mw engine lets you move really fast, having a 1km time from stopped of 30 seconds on a flat track--to put that in perspective the Abrams only goes 400 meters in 30 seconds by the time this 5k horsepower tank moves 1000 on a racetrack.  Is that the intention?  4 Megawatts/5000 horsepower is an awful lot of oomph even if you are 80 tons, so if those tank destroyers are described as ripping around crazy agile, sure...  But it sounded like the tank destroyer wasn't supposed to be a speed demon heavy monster, but a slow plodding sniper.  (in btech terms, in 10 seconds a 5k horsepower 80 ton vehicle can displace itself 330 meters on a track, so id give it a 6/9 speed offroad, when not on racetrack conditions.  5k horsepower in electric engines is like, a lot)
EDIT: looking at the electric motor cybertruck, it seems that electric engines may not maintain their efficiency like the abrams gas turbine.  If the 4mw motors of the 80t vee behave like the 600hp electric motors on the 3 ton cyber truck, then youd only get about 3/5 speed out of them.  Suspension losses are hard to account for on fictional vehicles, ranging like 75% to 30% and making a big impact.

I like analyzing stuff like this, im just trying to get a feel for the capabilities.

As for 'pulse' lasers, the normal btech laser is effectively a pulse laser.  Its not a multisecond melting cancer beam, its should be a very quick pulse of energy.  Quick pulses of energy are just way more energy efficient to vaporize and explode armor.  Btech 'pulse' lasers sound like they just fire smaller more numerous pulses to drill more efficiently, so deeper penetration but smaller size hole, so I wouldnt let the 'pulse' laser term prevent you from using normal btech laser weapons.

[RifleMech]

Why not mixed tech? It has enough heat sinks to mount a Clan LPL which will double the tank's firing range at 20 hexes. It'll also free up 1 ton. An ER LPL will hit even further at 23 hexes. The tank would need 3 more tons for heat sinks but the lighter laser provides 1 ton. That could be provided dropping the amphibious chassis mod. You said it traveled on the bottom of the water so environmental sealing should be good enough.
As for armor, why not use Hardened of Ferro Lamellor? Fewer points per ton but still lots of protection.

[Vehrec]

Maybe if we were designing strictly for performance, yeah, I thought about the clantech lasers.  I guess they fit the design, since the aliens in question have totally standardized on pulse lasers and  such, but I was hesitant to push directly into clantech for what is supposed to be a Space T-72.  As for Ferro-Lamellor and hardened, well, again, it's supposed to be the space T-72, but on the other hand, the author of the fiction gave us this lovely little table last night.

Code: [Select]

Amorphos Carbon (ME ~0.4 VE ~0.6)
mixed state expansive foam (ME ~0.6 VE ~0.1)
Compacted CNT (ME 0.55 VE 0.9)
High Entropy Ceramic (ME 0.65 VE 2)
High Entropy Ceramic-Demantoid Lattice (ME 0.8 VE 1.4)
Domestic Solid State Diamandoids (ME 0.85 VE 1)
Foreign Solid State Diamandoids (ME 1 VE 1)
Foreign Diamandoid Ultra-Hards (ME 0.95 VE 1.2)
Foreign Diamandoid Composites (ME 1.1-1.3 VE 0.9-0.7)
[11:08 PM]
As a quick kinda
[11:08 PM]
comparisonI believe this design is meant to be a 'Foreign Solid State Diamondoids' one, or maybe an Ultra-hard diamondoid.  But, by the same token, the *lower* end of this list, is supposed to be Tech Level B or C stuff, the compacted CNT or Amorphous Carbon being what you might call 'early 22nd century anti-laser armor', and the 'high entropy ceramics' being like using Endosteel for armor plate because you've been steeling tech and advanced structural materials are some of the best stuff you've got for materials science.

[RifleMech]

Maybe if we were designing strictly for performance, yeah, I thought about the clantech lasers.  I guess they fit the design, since the aliens in question have totally standardized on pulse lasers and  such, but I was hesitant to push directly into clantech for what is supposed to be a Space T-72.  As for Ferro-Lamellor and hardened, well, again, it's supposed to be the space T-72, but on the other hand, the author of the fiction gave us this lovely little table last night.

Code: [Select]

Amorphos Carbon (ME ~0.4 VE ~0.6)
mixed state expansive foam (ME ~0.6 VE ~0.1)
Compacted CNT (ME 0.55 VE 0.9)
High Entropy Ceramic (ME 0.65 VE 2)
High Entropy Ceramic-Demantoid Lattice (ME 0.8 VE 1.4)
Domestic Solid State Diamandoids (ME 0.85 VE 1)
Foreign Solid State Diamandoids (ME 1 VE 1)
Foreign Diamandoid Ultra-Hards (ME 0.95 VE 1.2)
Foreign Diamandoid Composites (ME 1.1-1.3 VE 0.9-0.7)
[11:08 PM]
As a quick kinda
[11:08 PM]
comparisonI believe this design is meant to be a 'Foreign Solid State Diamondoids' one, or maybe an Ultra-hard diamondoid.  But, by the same token, the *lower* end of this list, is supposed to be Tech Level B or C stuff, the compacted CNT or Amorphous Carbon being what you might call 'early 22nd century anti-laser armor', and the 'high entropy ceramics' being like using Endosteel for armor plate because you've been steeling tech and advanced structural materials are some of the best stuff you've got for materials science.

Without knowing the universe or their opposition is using, I'd still go with the Clan LPL. As for the table, the armor sounds a lot more advanced that the Tech B armor on the T-72. It also sounds more advanced than the Tech C armor on a M1 Abrams. Maybe upper Tech C?  It you're going to go with BAR 6-7 Armor shouldn't the space tank be built using support vehicle rules?

[Vehrec]

To clarify, when I call it a 'Space T-72' I do not mean that the armor is exactly the armor on a T-72, I mean that the role of this tank, in the larger galactic enviroment of armored vehicles, is much like that of the T-72, with many upgrade families, made necessary by the sub-optimal protection by modern standards.  Since the tank is an import from a multi-planetary alien state, although an obsolete import without any of the upgrade packages and it's electronics replaced by civilian off-the-shelf tech, it has advanced technology, by the standards of those who acquire it, but is still significantly lagging the cutting edge, even with modernization packages.

[RifleMech]

To clarify, when I call it a 'Space T-72' I do not mean that the armor is exactly the armor on a T-72, I mean that the role of this tank, in the larger galactic enviroment of armored vehicles, is much like that of the T-72, with many upgrade families, made necessary by the sub-optimal protection by modern standards.  Since the tank is an import from a multi-planetary alien state, although an obsolete import without any of the upgrade packages and it's electronics replaced by civilian off-the-shelf tech, it has advanced technology, by the standards of those who acquire it, but is still significantly lagging the cutting edge, even with modernization packages.

That sounds cool. How far has it been upgraded and what are the locals armed with?

[DevianID]

For armor, the fictional components I dont think matter so much as the weight, for btech purpose.  Really, its nice and simple there, if its advanced TECH E armor, then you get the ferro, tech F you get clan ferro, tech D the simple 16 points per ton.  If you are shooting for a 'tech C', but dont want BAR 7 type stuff, can do primitive armor to differentiate from the standard 16 points per ton tech D stuff. 

The ME versus VE, is that more like Kinetic Energy versus Explosive?  If so, are those numbers some equiv of RHA?  Not really important for btech armor, which doesnt use pen values, but if you went with more % of the layers good versus thermal damage, could maybe to reflective, or if you went with more of the Kinetic armor layers the ballistic reinforced armor.  The 2 values seem pretty balanced though, whatever they ME/VE are, so i dont think you need reflective or ballistic armor to get the desired effect.

[Vehrec]

Well, I don't know the exact weight of the armor-the writer isn't interested in how much it masses on each facing.  You hear that 'the turret side on this design is actually weaker than the hull sides' sometimes, but exact weights for most vehicles aren't forthcoming. 

ME vs VE is Mass Efficiency vs Volume Efficiency, so a plate of Mixed State Expansive Foam is 1.66 times heavier than an equivalent plate of diamondoid-and ten times thicker.  This is relevant actually, because the locals had an AFV they armored with foam at one point in the invasion, and it took adding two whole meters of the stuff to get decent laser resistance.

That sounds cool. How far has it been upgraded and what are the locals armed with?

Well, I don't know what the upgrade limits are, but the players were given three choices with the tank-clone their existing tank hardware and get it quickly into service, redesign the interior, or a complete redesign to eliminated turret-popping via some unconventional choices.

They went with cloning their existing tank hardware, but here's the full text of all three options.  As for local armaments, they've made their first laser rifles (10.6 kilos 'infantry', 50 kilos 'power armor') and they've just begun a warship program to produce a common frigate/corvette hull, engine, and primary armament, with the corvette adding missiles while the frigate adds fuel and cargo for sustainment to those basics.

Imported Tank Modernization Program: The establishment of domestic production of the Type 014 Tank has been far simpler than making it function on a modern battlefield. The production tooling for the sensor kits has arrived inadequate with even example products in effect obsolescent compared to current standards. Onboard computational systems can best be considered equivalent to a tablet rather than anything remotely competent with a crew section that does not take any measures to protect the crew, placing them directly around an even for the Xolotlans obsolete capacitor system. The turret is under-armored compared to expectations as it is expected to receive the most fire in general tank combat but has failed to be increased in protection. Still, the base systems have very much made the Type 014 a modern tank and one that can be renovated and brought to adequate combat service if time is spent on modernization. (42)

[]Clone Type 45B Systems: The armament complex on the tank is in itself old and the armor worse but avoiding making any changes or developing new systems can provide significant intermediary experience. Significant developments in sensor and awareness systems have yet to come with the current generation of armor and work can focus on other procurement projects. Transferring the systems directly will minimize the cost of funding and enable a modified and modernized variant to enter mass production in an accelerated time frame. Issues in the turret armor notwithstanding the priority to protect the capacitors over the crew are understandable if crews are more available than armor. (50B Or) (Ends Procurement)

[]Redesign the Interior: Improving the tank's protection and general ergonomics is possible while still maintaining most of the hull forms conceits. The turret can be made unmanned by lowering the crew into a series of hull pods beside the driver with a further improvement to protection across the central plate made. The central turret basket will be replaced with a SMES system to increase power density, achieving significant gains in overall performance and a slight weight reduction that will be immediately invested into HECD composite add-on kits. This would in effect lower the operational crew to two, relying on automated spotting systems and combined perception to maintain situational awareness with the driver and gunner splitting the responsibilities of the commander role. (50B Or)

[]Comprehensive Reconstruction: The most valuable part of the pile of shit that was purchased is the general hull design, engine, and laser system rather than any of the associated parts. Hull armor can be doubled through the use of an addon HECD composite plate on the front hull, a side skirt added to protect the tracks from light laser fire. To provide the weight for the refit the turret armor will be reduced to only be proof against power armor weaponry and an SMES will be installed to supply power for the motive system with a single fuel cell replacing the dual system, in effect using the SMES as a battery for general operations and limiting the likely to be a sixty-ton vehicle to 1MW of power for prolonged maneuvers. Sensor systems will be improved and theoretically, it is expected that a detonation of the central section can be made survivable in the frontal crew pod. (150B) (Total Redesign, just keeps the engine, gun, suspension, and front plate)

Which would you have picked?

[RifleMech]

For the Type 014 Tank one I would go with a Support Vehicle with basic fire control.

For the Clone Type 45B I'd give it an armored weapon and improved sensors.

Redesign the Interior gets upgraded with advanced fire control (to lower crew requirements) and an armored weapon. The capacitor system makes me think of a PPC but there's some Lasers that mix PPC components so you could go either way. From how the SMES sounds here you could go with an improved weapon for "lower weight and increased performance".

The Comprehensive Reconstruction would have an upgraded chassis. The other components below would make it a combat vehicle chassis. In addition to above, it'd have modular armor (HECD composite add-on kits), armored motive system, a combat vehicle escape pod, and improved targeting/sensors. A supercharger could be used as the SMES here.

In all variants I lean towards mixed armor with a lower BAR on the turret. The last variant would have the lowest BAR rating to reduce weight and only be effective against power armor weapons.

[Vehrec]

Update: Well, the cheap and cheerful alien tank didn't actually get produced in great enough numbers to make a dent (only about 10 per week) and it's outdated anyways, so the army wants MORE.  Now they want a tank destroyer, using new mimetic camouflage (stealth armor?), a massive great honking railgun with a refire rate of two seconds and a clip of 3-6 rounds, before the entire thing has to scoot away and recharge, along with the multi-targeting computer to switch shots between targets in a single ambush.  All that on a 35 ton chassis.  Though, one company is going for 40 tons, tracks, and a turret. 

[RifleMech]

Stealth Armor sounds good. As for the gun, I think a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle would be the best match.

[Vehrec]

Stealth Armor sounds good. As for the gun, I think a Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle would be the best match.

Oh, it gets better.  One of the proposed designs, from a company called Avalon Industrial Trust, is just to re-use the chassis of the Type 36 APC, an 8x8 wheeled vehicle which...look, it's a pre-contact design.  It's maybe a C-class structural chassis, refitted with a fuel-cell engine, ripping off the rear of the hull and shoving a casematted gun onto it.  With stealth armor, because incredibly, this is the only design of three that is actually hitting it's frontal thermal emission targets.

The other two design proposals are from UNSIA (I don't know what that's an abreviation for) who say 'let's put an actual turret and armor for the crew on this, even if it can't fire sideways without flipping over' and Lunos Industries' bid to use AI and DNI equipment, to overcome the limits of non-turreted weapons and improve combat awareness.

I tried to make the Avalon design, but the low-tech hull, the paired lasers, and the fact that you can't put Stealth armor on a support vee meant I had to get a bit creative.  Micro pulse lasers are totally a valid AMS with enough optional rules, right?

Code: [Select]

Type 36ET Support Tank
<p>
<b>Mass: </b>35 tons<br/>

<b>Movement Type: </b>Wheeled<br/>

<b>Power Plant: </b> Fuel Cell<br/>
<b>Cruising Speed: </b>43.2 kph<br/>
<b>Maximum Speed: </b>64.8 kph<br/>
<b>Armor: </b>BAR 10</b><br/>
<b>Armament:</b><br/>
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 Micro Pulse Laser<br/>
  &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 HAG/20<br/>


<b>Communication System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Targeting & Tracking System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Introduction Year:</b> 3145<br/>
<b>Tech Rating/Availability:</b> F/X-X-X-E<br/>
<b>Cost:</b> 992,141 C-bills<br/>
</p>




 
Type: Type 36ET
Chassis Type: Wheeled (Medium)
Technology Base: Mixed (Advanced)
Mass: 35 tons
Battle Value: 523

Equipment                                         Mass (tons)
Chassis/Controls                                    9.5
Engine/Trans.                                       5.5
    Cruise MP:4
Flank MP:6
Heat Sinks                    2                     2.0
Fuel                                                0.5
Power Amplifier                                     0.5
Armor Factor (BAR 10)         35                    2.0

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2       7/7   
     Rear                    2         6     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Micro Pulse Laser                          Left        0.5     
HAG/20                                    Front        10.0   
Micro Pulse Laser                         Right        0.5     
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle/20 Ammo (18)     Body        3.0     

Cargo
    None

Notes:
Features Armored Chassis Chassis and Controls Modification
ECM Suite(1 ton)



[RifleMech]

It looks good. You can put stealth armor on a support vehicle using the patchwork armor rules in TO:AUE but you have to put it in each location.

Micro pulse lasers as AMS?  I'm not sure. I believe they can be used by AS units for AMS but I don't know of any rule that lets ground units do so. I'd be okay house ruling it though.

The UNSIA sounds like a top heavy tank with a heavy gauss rifle. It also sounds like it has a mixed crew of people and AI. I don't think we have rules for that. There is fluff with SLDF tanks having automated turrets but no rules that I know of. There is a VDNI though so it could use that.