Demoralizer/Antagonizer Issues

[Xochi]

So I was building a force and read the old 2016 thread on the use of Demoralizer and Antagonizer being that you must go within 6" of a unit, regardless of which unit is being moved.

With the current rule set nothing stops me from taking lets say a RoTS Celerity or a Balak Attack Helicopter with this ability and fly across their entire force, and debilitate on average, more than half of them to half movement. I can basically do this every turn, staying in medium range of most of the main force (especially if they're halved in movement) to ensure that I either get every single one of them constantly or keep up the effect. This isn't to say you could do that with a Firemoth, Fireball etc to an opponent. Even a Shadow Cat with 16" movement can really race through a force.

If that is the intention, rule sets of "Just don't play with them" or "don't use that section of the book" really don't assist players who want to use the rule sets we are given in our manuals.

If I could make a suggestion it should maybe read:

A warrior with the Demoralizer SPA can make his unit a holy terror on the battlefield, projecting an intimidating presence that manifests in the way he maneuvers and taunts his enemies—with or without the use of communications. If a enemy unit comes within 6 inches of this unit, the player may make a roll 2D6 before attempting to make a weapon or physical attack. If the roll is 8 or less, the enemy unit is Intimidated. Intimidated units reduce their Move by half (round down) and suffer a +1 to hit modifier for all attacks made against the Demoralizer. This effect can only be used on one unit at a time.

Or maybe

Every enemy unit that ends its turn within 6 inches of this unit must roll 2D6 before attempting to make a weapon or physical attack. If the roll is 8 or less, the enemy unit is Intimidated. Intimidated units reduce their Move by half (round down) and suffer a +1 to hit modifier for all attacks made against the Demoralizer.

Thoughts?

[DarkJaguar]

You forgot the errata.

Demoralizer
Unit Type: Any
SPA Cost: 3 points
A warrior with the Demoralizer SPA can make his unit a holy terror on the battlefield, projecting an intimidating presence that manifests in the way he maneuvers and taunts his enemies—with or without the use of communications.
Every enemy unit that comes within 6” of a unit using this SPA must roll 2D6. If the roll is 8 or less, the enemy unit becomes intimidated. Intimidated units reduce their Move by half (round down) and suffer a +1 to-hit modifier for all attacks made against the Demoralizer. The reduced Move rating does affect its target movement modifier.
If a demoralized unit begins any phase more than 24” from or without line of sight to the Demoralizer, the unit is no longer demoralized. This ability does not function at all versus aerospace units.

I would suggest changing "Every enemy unit that comes within 6” of a unit using this SPA must roll 2D6. " to something like  "Any unit that moves within 6" of a unit using this SPA -or- any unit that is within 6" of a a using unit at the end of its movement forces the controlling player to roll a 2d6."

[Son of Kerenski]

Pretty sure Antagonizer was fixed from its broken state so that you can only Antagonizer only 1 unit per turn...

[nckestrel]

Pretty sure Antagonizer was fixed from its broken state so that you can only Antagonizer only 1 unit per turn...

Not quite. You can only trigger Antagonizer once during your move, but it still affects every unit within 6” of when you trigger it.

[DarkJaguar]

Not quite. You can only trigger Antagonizer once during your move, but it still affects every unit within 6” of when you trigger it.

What about demoralizer though?

[nckestrel]

What about demoralizer though?

You just quoted the Demoralizer errata.  There’s nothing that I know of beyond/above that.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Demoralized is a much weaker kick in the gonad than Antagonized is.

Demoralized targets just suffer penalties. Granted, crippling penalties for high-TMM units... but it's still much better than losing control of the unit entirely, which is what Antagonized means.

[Xochi]

Halving most of your force to half movement is pretty bad on its own using large distance covering units.

[DarkJaguar]

Demoralized is a much weaker kick in the gonad than Antagonized is.

Demoralized targets just suffer penalties. Granted, crippling penalties for high-TMM units... but it's still much better than losing control of the unit entirely, which is what Antagonized means.

I think my main issue is that you can cripple the entire enemy force with half move on your turn before they have moved, AND give the opponent a penalty to kill the source of said crippling.

[Weirdo]

So there are units in the game that you really REALLY want to kill before they get close to any of your stuff. Alpha Strike becomes more and more like Total War every day! :thumbsup:

[Scotty]

I think my main issue is that you can cripple the entire enemy force with half move on your turn before they have moved, AND give the opponent a penalty to kill the source of said crippling.

They have to get there.

If they have Demoralizer on something fast enough to get most of your force you can bring Combat Intuition on something nasty to counter.

You have to fail the check

You can still play around a half movement penalty

I'm sure there are many more ways than just those to counter that strategy.

[Xochi]

They have to get there.

If they have Demoralizer on something fast enough to get most of your force you can bring Combat Intuition on something nasty to counter.

You have to fail the check

You can still play around a half movement penalty

I'm sure there are many more ways than just those to counter that strategy.

Its not hard to sweep a unit and then move back and use another Mech with the Cover feature and go hull down/Forest/Partial Cover, especially on units with 20+" and sprint.

Rolling an 9 is hard enough on its own, so most of the force is going to fail a check.

You can move but doesn't help if you never get a TMM over 1 if that on some units at half move especially when they don't have heavy or assault armor. (A Shadowcat going 16 now goes to 8 so you from TMM 3 to 1.) This makes it really easy in a round or two to kill people.

Its not an easy strategy to counter when you can keep doing that, especially if they have multiple units with it.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As a check to make sure we're all on the same page, the current version of the Demoralizer works thusly (errata v2.4):

"Every enemy unit that comes within 6” of a unit using this SPA must roll 2D6. If the roll is 8 or less, the enemy unit becomes intimidated. Intimidated units reduce their Move by half (round down) and suffer a +1 to-hit modifier for all attacks made against the Demoralizer. The reduced Move rating does affect its target movement modifier.
If a demoralized unit begins any phase more than 24” from or without line of sight to the Demoralizer, the unit is no longer demoralized. This ability does not function at all versus aerospace units."

If you sweep a ridiculously fast unit around early in the turn to give the speed debuff before units move, all you do is force your opponent to abandon a bold push and move instead into cover (and granted, that's a potent ability, but hardly in Antagonizer's league)
The smarter play for Demoralizer is to move it reactively rather than proactively, catching those high-TMM units after they've moved and denying them their TMM when they ended their move in a vulnerable location.

As for Antagonizer/Demoralizer SPAs disruptiveness: I'm not a fan of SPAs in competitive games. For reasons exactly like this.. SPAs aren't generally written with an eye towards balance.  The furthest I'd go with SPAs in a competitive game is formation building, which doesn't often grant these particular SPAs.

But if you do like to play with SPAs and these particular SPAs are being disruptive in your meta, then you know you need to start taking more Iron Will pilots.

[Son of Kerenski]

Not quite. You can only trigger Antagonizer once during your move, but it still affects every unit within 6” of when you trigger it.

OK. So you still have to chose which unit? And it's still the only one?

[nckestrel]

OK. So you still have to chose which unit? And it's still the only one?

Antagonizer is every unit in range.
“Once per turn, a unit with Antagonizer may trigger its ability at any single point along its path while moving. At that time, every enemy unit within 6 inches of the unit triggering this SPA must roll 2D6.”
So it can get multiple, but they all have to be within 6” of it at that one time that it triggers. It can’t zoom around getting everybody at once.  Unless everybody is within a 6” area.

[Son of Kerenski]

Right so I've been interpreting the new ruling wrong. Cheers.

Still kinda broken but nowhere like it used to be.

[Weirdo]

Some things are just good. The counter is gun. If you kill the Antagonizer before it gets close or otherwise prevent it from closing(consider mines), then you've negated the goodness.

[Xochi]

Some things are just good. The counter is gun. If you kill the Antagonizer before it gets close or otherwise prevent it from closing(consider mines), then you've negated the goodness.

Taking what was said earlier. How do you counter and kill something with 60" move (using print) that moves around and halves a bunch of movement and TMM and then disappears around a rock. They effect applies till the start of a new phase, they don't need to stay in line of sight. So you run around, wipe out all the TMM on things that moved quick and go hide. During combat phase they are no longer demoralized but they still have super reduced TMM.

[DarkJaguar]

Some things are just good. The counter is gun. If you kill the Antagonizer before it gets close or otherwise prevent it from closing(consider mines), then you've negated the goodness.

 While this is indeed a potential counter, it's not a dependable one.  The force with demoralizer just needs to move first with a suitably fast mech.  In order to counter that you need three things.

1)  You have to know that they HAVE demoralizer, and which unit it's on.  You won't know this until they use it.
2) You need to be far enough away that they can't use it yet, which can be difficult with things like the Wulfen E (26" move, and by far not the worst possibility).
3) You have to not only move first, but you have to move first and have everything spread out enough that they won't all be able to get hit by demoralizer, which can outright destroy your ability to return fire in a coherent manner.

The big difference between demoralizer and say sniper, is that demoralizer just needs to work once to negatively affect an infinite number of opponents, maintaining the demoralized state is completely passive.  Sniper requires you roll a to-hit every time you shoot to potentially affect 1-3 units (Weapon attack, multi-attack, special attack).

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Taking what was said earlier. How do you counter and kill something with 60" move (using print) that moves around and halves a bunch of movement and TMM and then disappears around a rock. They effect applies till the start of a new phase, they don't need to stay in line of sight. So you run around, wipe out all the TMM on things that moved quick and go hide. During combat phase they are no longer demoralized but they still have super reduced TMM.

There's a few things to reply to.

Sportsmanship: We might have to go ahead and disagree as to whether someone using a 60" move to maximize the ability to exploit Antagonizer is being a good sport.  If you can't rule these sorts of things out from the "good sportsmanship" code of conduct, then you might have to start looking at removing some of the optional rules you play with.  Alpha Strike isn't written to be a competitive game.. if you want to play it that way you really shouldn't be using unbalanced optional expansions to the rules like SPAs and Sprint anyway.

Current state of Antagonizer: Remember that even with a 60" move you can't deny the opponent control of large swathes of his army.  Antagonizer is actively triggered at any point during your own move, and only affects units within 6" of the Antagonizer at that moment. Furthermore, if those antagonized units begin any phase (movement, or combat) more than 24" away from the antagonizer or without LOS to it (you hid behind a rock) the SPA's effect immediately ends.

Current state of Demoralizer: Demoralized wears off the same way as antagonized. (You seem to be under the mistaken impression that hiding out of LOS is going to allow the Demoralized debuff to last into the combat phase) If you swept around to TMM nerf half the opponent's force and still stay within 24" of all nerfed units and inside their LOS so that the debuff doesn't expire... it ain't gonna live through the round to ever do it again.  Even a +1tn won't save it from that much concentrated hate (and artillery will ignore it anyway).  And besides, demoralized targets can shoot at everything other than the demoralizer at no penalty (unlike Antagonized units, which must shoot at their debuff-er...)

"How do you counter and kill [a fast Demoralizer]...": If you moved it late, I've already got full value of my MV on the affected units and all you're doing is lowering their TMM by 1-2. And if you hide out of LOS, not even that as the effect immediately wears off when Combat phase begins and your Demoralizer is >24" away or out of LOS...

OTOH if you moved the Demoralizer early in the phase, before I moved the affected units, they'll mostly just go into whatever cover is still available, or even to stationary for the firing bonus if already in cover.  However something will be able, even if my entire army is at 1/2 MV, to achieve LOS to wherever you hid.  And artillery will guarantee your demoralizer doesn't see another round. It'll only take 1 or 2 hits to knock out anything that can go 60". And since LOS is reciprocal, if you Demoralize early and go break LOS then my TMM will be restored when you're shooting at me in the combat phase...

[Weirdo]

Taking what was said earlier. How do you counter and kill something with 60" move (using print) that moves around and halves a bunch of movement and TMM and then disappears around a rock. They effect applies till the start of a new phase, they don't need to stay in line of sight. So you run around, wipe out all the TMM on things that moved quick and go hide. During combat phase they are no longer demoralized but they still have super reduced TMM.

Bombs. Mines. Artillery. Ortillery. MV is so powerful in Alpha Strike that any force that can't deliver solid AE damage deserves everything that happens to it. Bring some big boom, and remind him that people proved back in WWI that speed is NOT armor. Do so as brutally as possible. KILL the Demoralizer.

Bring your own Demoralizer. Demoralize his Demoralizer. KILL the Demoralizer.

Fire. Heat up the Demoralizer, slow it down. KILL the Demoralizer.

Also, if your opponent can bring Demoralizer, what's preventing you from bringing Iron Will? Sure it only protects one unit, but if you fear Demoralizer that much, it's worth it.

Plenty of counters. And that's not even counting stuff like playing canon units only(show me that 60" unit), only allowing SPAs from formations(good luck cramming something that fast into a legal assault lance), or playing on terrain that screws up those high MV units.

[nckestrel]

Demoralizer is broken if LOS is broken.  Or if the Demoralizer is more than 24” away.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Demoralizer is broken if LOS is broken.  Or if the Demoralizer is more than 24” away.

Technically not until the next phase, so theoretically a 60" Demoralizer could move early, debuff, hide, and still force you to make 1/2 speed moves.

Of course Demoralizing and hiding won't do anything to TMMs due to shooting happening in a completely different phase than movement.

[nckestrel]

Yeah, the doesn’t affect TMM is an important piece as well.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Due to the necessity of NOT breaking LOS for meaningful impact to Demoralized, my preferred unit is juggernaut Battle Armor such as Kanazuchi.  Kick the expendable BA out of a fast moving APC for maximum munchkin-age. Much more of a kick than a Demoralizing, hiding Fireball.

Just so, it's still hard countered by artillery.

[Son of Kerenski]

What on gods earth moves 60 inches?

[nckestrel]

A sprinting Fireball ALM-XF goes 48” *1.5 = 72”.

[Son of Kerenski]

Right. Never use sprinting. And never intend to now.

[Weirdo]

Yeah, I'm assuming they're going full hog on customs, or maybe the NapFind can make that?

[nckestrel]

Yeah, I'm assuming they're going full hog on customs, or maybe the NapFind can make that?

The 60" move reference specifically said with sprinting (assuming "print" was a typo for "sprint).
I think that Fireball is still the faster canon ground unit. There's a Celerity that matches it, and the LCT-6M at 36".

[Son of Kerenski]

See when I saw print, I thought "official source".

[Scotty]

The Fireball XF and the Celerity config that escapes me at the moment are unquestionably the fastest units in the game.  That said, you do have to keep them in line of sight in order for Demoralizer to persist; moving from the movement phase to the combat phase will break the penalties if you don't, and then your Demoralizer has done very little except reduce the distance moved on the table.  Their TMMs will go back to normal once the effect goes off.

[nckestrel]

Demoralizer does not affect TMMs.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The errata made it affect TMMs.. so long as the effect doesn't expire due to distance or lost LOS.

[nckestrel]

The errata made it affect TMMs.. so long as the effect doesn't expire due to distance or lost LOS.

Ah, I read it and my mind added a not in there. Oh well.

[DarkJaguar]

Demoralizer does not affect TMMs.

When using variable movement, a unit that is caused to move fewer than it's maximum move will still be short TMM even after the effect wears off as well, FWIW.

[nckestrel]

When using variable movement, a unit that is caused to move fewer than it's maximum move will still be short TMM even after the effect wears off as well, FWIW.

Variable movement is still only less than 1" no TMM (standstill), 1"+ (normal TMM).  Other than the <1"/>1", actual movement distance isn't measured.

[DarkJaguar]

Variable movement is still only less than 1" no TMM (standstill), 1"+ (normal TMM).  Other than the <1"/>1", actual movement distance isn't measured.

To better reflect the reality of the unit’s mobility, the following variable movement modifiers are applied based on the actual movement performed by the unit in the current turn. The effects of these changes are described below, and also summarized in the Expanded Movement Modifiers Table, which replaces and adds details to the appropriate parts of the standard To-Hit Modifiers Table found on p. 37 (and p. 169) of Alpha Strike.

Does this not mean you use the distance actually moved by the unit to determine TMM?

[nckestrel]

No. That’s why that wording wasn’t repeated when variable movement was added to the 2nd printing of AS rulebook.  The actual movement modes later never say calcaulte it based on distance moved. 

[DarkJaguar]

No. That’s why that wording wasn’t repeated when variable movement was added to the 2nd printing of AS rulebook.  The actual movement modes later never say calcaulte it based on distance moved.

How is that different than how movement is handled in standard rules then?  What you described in the post I responded to is exactly how standard rules movement modifiers work.

[nckestrel]

How is that different than how movement is handled in standard rules then?  What you described in the post I responded to is exactly how standard rules movement modifiers work.

It is the standard rule now. That’s why it has the diamonds around it’s title in ASC. In the 1st printing of AS rulebook, there was no standstill, and jumping had no attack modifier. The ASC made the unit choose a movement mode, either standing still, normal ground movement, or jumping, and made that a standard rule. When the 2nd printing of AS was made, that was shown in it as the standard rule.

[Scotty]

DarkJaguar is invoking the optional rule of counting a unit's actually moved distance instead of the fixed TMM.

To which I respond: if you're is using multiple optional rules and don't like how they interact, stop using one or the other.  Balancing every permutation of optional rules was not and never will be a priority.

[nckestrel]

DarkJaguar is invoking the optional rule of counting a unit's actually moved distance instead of the fixed TMM.

To which I respond: if you're is using multiple optional rules and don't like how they interact, stop using one or the other.  Balancing every permutation of optional rules was not and never will be a priority.

There is no official optimal rule that does so.  It would be a house rule.

[DarkJaguar]

It is the standard rule now. That’s why it has the diamonds around it’s title in ASC. In the 1st printing of AS rulebook, there was no standstill, and jumping had no attack modifier. The ASC made the unit choose a movement mode, either standing still, normal ground movement, or jumping, and made that a standard rule. When the 2nd printing of AS was made, that was shown in it as the standard rule.

While it certainly makes sense in the context of the other rules in the "Advanced Optional Rules" section that have diamonds around them, why not just errata out that/those entries, instead of (confusingly) having the rule in standard rules -AND- advanced optional rules?  Or at the very least, an entry in the errata stating what diamond marked entries are?  Having two entries with different wording in two places, one labeled "Standard" and the other labeled "Advanced Optional" certainly implied to me that they were different.

[Hellraiser]

So I'm trying to picture this.

Your 60" moving unit sweeps over a line forcing a bunch of 9+ checks to not be affected.

But for that to be in effect it has to actually end within 24" (Medium Range) of every unit in your force that it swept over & within LOS of them all too.

I'm picturing a very short lived Fireball here for starters as being in Medium Range of a bunch of enemy units seems like a death sentence.

Sure they are at +1 if they failed the roll, but since 1/3 of them don't fail it there is still some getting off clean shots.   The TMM is going to be high sure.

Unless the entire force is 4 gunners with crap damage at Medium range I'm not seeing this last very long.  A single 3 point hit ends it.

This also assumes every unit that passes it can't move into Short Range for even better to hit #s.

I'd have to test it but it seems like a 1 hit wonder at first glance.

My only real complaint is I'm thinking 9+ to pass is a bit high.  I feel like 8+ would be more balanced.

[DarkJaguar]

So I'm trying to picture this.

Your 60" moving unit sweeps over a line forcing a bunch of 9+ checks to not be affected.

But for that to be in effect it has to actually end within 24" (Medium Range) of every unit in your force that it swept over & within LOS of them all too.

I'm picturing a very short lived Fireball here for starters as being in Medium Range of a bunch of enemy units seems like a death sentence.

Sure they are at +1 if they failed the roll, but since 1/3 of them don't fail it there is still some getting off clean shots.   The TMM is going to be high sure.

Unless the entire force is 4 gunners with crap damage at Medium range I'm not seeing this last very long.  A single 3 point hit ends it.

This also assumes every unit that passes it can't move into Short Range for even better to hit #s.

I'd have to test it but it seems like a 1 hit wonder at first glance.

My only real complaint is I'm thinking 9+ to pass is a bit high.  I feel like 8+ would be more balanced.

Having LOS and the unit being in your forward firing arc are two very different conditions.  So you could very easily imagine a situation in which your force has had something fast run BEHIND them all, triggering Demoralizer.  Now, assuming you move after the demoralizing unit, you must make the choice of facing it, or facing the rest of the big guns coming your way, while at a lower TMM than normal.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If you move the demoralizer early, then your opponent can potentially move his demoralized units so that they lose LOS to it, if terrain permits. They'll be stuck with the 1/2 move, but they'll get their TMM back for the combat phase- which is the only time TMM matters anyway.

Or they can just give it the back arc.  I wouldn't bother even shooting at a Fireball; even if I had nothing that ignores TMM.  The return on the resource expenditure required to kill something like that without artillery/bombs just isn't there. I'd rather let it take its 2 point plinks than waste the shots necessary to put it down.  Being MADE to shoot at it is why Antagonizer hurts so much worse than Demoralizer.

You can ignore a Demoralizer.

[nckestrel]

While it certainly makes sense in the context of the other rules in the "Advanced Optional Rules" section that have diamonds around them, why not just errata out that/those entries, instead of (confusingly) having the rule in standard rules -AND- advanced optional rules?  Or at the very least, an entry in the errata stating what diamond marked entries are?  Having two entries with different wording in two places, one labeled "Standard" and the other labeled "Advanced Optional" certainly implied to me that they were different.

Compromises were made. Nobody knew if/when AS would get a second printing. 

The diamond marked entrees are explained at the beginning to the ASC rules section.
"Standard Rule Modifications: Even with respect to the optional nature of this material, there are exceptions. A few of
the rules presented in this chapter—notably those for Battlefield Intelligence, Deliberate Overheating, Minimal Damage,
Occupying and Intervening Terrain, Rear-Firing Weapons, and Variable Movement Modifiers (see pp. 16, 18, 18, 18, 19, and 22,
respectively)—are considered formal modifications to standard Alpha Strike game play. While each of these changes will be
integrated into later reprints of Alpha Strike (starting with the Corrected Second Printing), they are presented here for player
convenience in the interim. To clearly identify when a rule is meant to be applied as a modification to standard Alpha Strike,
its header will be preceded and followed by diamond icons ()."

[DarkJaguar]

Compromises were made. Nobody knew if/when AS would get a second printing. 

The diamond marked entrees are explained at the beginning to the ASC rules section.
"Standard Rule Modifications: Even with respect to the optional nature of this material, there are exceptions. A few of
the rules presented in this chapter—notably those for Battlefield Intelligence, Deliberate Overheating, Minimal Damage,
Occupying and Intervening Terrain, Rear-Firing Weapons, and Variable Movement Modifiers (see pp. 16, 18, 18, 18, 19, and 22,
respectively)—are considered formal modifications to standard Alpha Strike game play. While each of these changes will be
integrated into later reprints of Alpha Strike (starting with the Corrected Second Printing), they are presented here for player
convenience in the interim. To clearly identify when a rule is meant to be applied as a modification to standard Alpha Strike,
its header will be preceded and followed by diamond icons ()."

Fair enough, can they be errataed out now though for clarity, as the interim period has passed?

[nckestrel]

Fair enough, can they be errataed out now though for clarity, as the interim period has passed?

 I'm burned out.  Send it to the rules questions forum so somebody there can see it and update it.  Or just post it to the errata forum since it's a simple delete.

[DarkJaguar]

I'm burned out.  Send it to the rules questions forum so somebody there can see it and update it.  Or just post it to the errata forum since it's a simple delete.

Done!

Hope ya feel better soon.

[Kit deSummersville]

Bombs. Mines. Artillery. Ortillery. MV is so powerful in Alpha Strike that any force that can't deliver solid AE damage deserves everything that happens to it. Bring some big boom, and remind him that people proved back in WWI that speed is NOT armor. Do so as brutally as possible. KILL the Demoralizer.

Bring your own Demoralizer. Demoralize his Demoralizer. KILL the Demoralizer.

Fire. Heat up the Demoralizer, slow it down. KILL the Demoralizer.

Also, if your opponent can bring Demoralizer, what's preventing you from bringing Iron Will? Sure it only protects one unit, but if you fear Demoralizer that much, it's worth it.

Plenty of counters. And that's not even counting stuff like playing canon units only(show me that 60" unit), only allowing SPAs from formations(good luck cramming something that fast into a legal assault lance), or playing on terrain that screws up those high MV units.

How about smoke to break the LoS?

[Scotty]

Doesn't take effect until the end phase.

[NeonKnight]

OK, I've been following, and not sure I should post in the QUESTION section, but if I understand, Demoralizer reduces the TMM of all affected units, even if the unit has already moved/acted that phase?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OK, I've been following, and not sure I should post in the QUESTION section, but if I understand, Demoralizer reduces the TMM of all affected units, even if the unit has already moved/acted that phase?

Yes, but come the combat phase:  If the Demoralizer is >24" away or out of LOS to the Demoralized unit(s) the effect ends, and they regain their TMM (and lose the penalty to shoot at the Demoralizer).

Moving away from or losing LOS to the Demoralizer is hard after you've already moved; that's why I was saying using Demoralizer on victims that have already moved is generally the stronger play then being cute with Demoralizing early to force 1/2 distance moves.

[Xochi]

I still feel like as an SPA its far to strong in its current iteration compared to most other SPAs. The simple fact it can be used against an entire force is kind of game breaking. There is no other SPA that can cause this effect. I also implore you without an artillery set up, tell me how a wulfen that can go up to 36+" at medium range in light woods is an easy target. Let's see, that's Base 4 + 5 Tmm +3 for woods (if its buried in there just in line of sight) +2 for stealth. So without any specials in play thats a +14. So you need a 12 to even think about hitting it with medium range master alone. Good freaking luck.

While arty can play a good role against this kind of maneuver, you also have to hit it enough to put it in retreat (some lights can survive 2 max roll long time shells.) by the time you might hit or do anything to it, you've not only wasted your forces resources while the main enemy team advances but your movement has been reduced to shit that entire time or TMM removed from any of your fast movers.

[Scotty]

Artillery is standard rules, SPAs are not.  When you bring up a potential balance issue, if the issue can be solved by something in every player's toolbox then it's not actually a balance issue.

Additionally, light/heavy woods as a distinction is part of optional rules.  Normally, woods are just a flat +2 and the distance into the woods is irrelevant.

The third choice is to avoid getting within medium range of the woods feature, or to make sure you end up in short range of the woods feature.

Finally, a +1 to hit isn't going to destroy the game.  If you really feel like it's too much, bring Iron Will on your important units.  After all, if you're using the formation building rules, there isn't any way to give something fast Demoralizer (it's Assault Lances only, where the fastest you can get is 12" [14" under TSM]) without also having an answer in the form of Iron Will.

[Xochi]

Artillery is standard rules, SPAs are not.  When you bring up a potential balance issue, if the issue can be solved by something in every player's toolbox then it's not actually a balance issue.

Additionally, light/heavy woods as a distinction is part of optional rules.  Normally, woods are just a flat +2 and the distance into the woods is irrelevant.

The third choice is to avoid getting within medium range of the woods feature, or to make sure you end up in short range of the woods feature.

Finally, a +1 to hit isn't going to destroy the game.  If you really feel like it's too much, bring Iron Will on your important units.  After all, if you're using the formation building rules, there isn't any way to give something fast Demoralizer (it's Assault Lances only, where the fastest you can get is 12" [14" under TSM]) without also having an answer in the form of Iron Will.

Then why does it say no where in the book "using these set of rules will unbalance the game and require a sufficient amount of house rules in order to make them workable."

The entire point of a rules book, is to use a rule. If its unbalanced, why is the option available in the first place?

Also +1 isn't bad but again, half move is atrocious when you can apply it to an unlimited amount of units in range.

[Scotty]

It doesn't say that because it's not true.  We've collectively given the thread at least half a dozen ways to mitigate or counter a fast Demoralizer or Antagonizer.  I suggested that if you're going to ignore the obvious counter that it's going to become an issue.  That's on the player, not the rules.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I still feel like as an SPA its far to strong in its current iteration compared to most other SPAs. The simple fact it can be used against an entire force is kind of game breaking. There is no other SPA that can cause this effect. I also implore you without an artillery set up, tell me how a wulfen that can go up to 36+" at medium range in light woods is an easy target. Let's see, that's Base 4 + 5 Tmm +3 for woods (if its buried in there just in line of sight) +2 for stealth. So without any specials in play thats a +14. So you need a 12 to even think about hitting it with medium range master alone. Good freaking luck.

While arty can play a good role against this kind of maneuver, you also have to hit it enough to put it in retreat (some lights can survive 2 max roll long time shells.) by the time you might hit or do anything to it, you've not only wasted your forces resources while the main enemy team advances but your movement has been reduced to shit that entire time or TMM removed from any of your fast movers.

Artillery aside..

Even a sprinting Fireball isn't going to Demoralize more than a third or so of my force.  I play on the recommended 4' x 6' play area, and I generally move flankers along both left and right board edge.  No way are you fast enough to approach and then sweep a Demoralizer through a sufficiently spread out force. It takes 60" of move just to drag a 6" radius from edge to edge.  And even if you could come within 6" of everything, the only way you'd keep everything within 24" is by standing smack in the middle of my center/spearhead, giving it easy short range shots.  And that's assuming you can even squeeze 90+ inches of move out of something (edge to edge, and back to the center).

But, sure maybe you have multiple Demoralizers, and they run off into long range after demoralizing.

Why should I even care? At that range, you're doing nothing to at best 1 point of unlikely-to-hit damage.  I have no reason to even shoot at your Wulfen.  Plus, as (often) said upthread, if you parked out in long range, I got my TMM back anyway.

As a matter of fact, I find Demoralizer to be nearly as useless as you find it OP... at least if used the way you're describing.  You need to move the Demoralizer as close to first or last as possible to get maximum benefit, depending on which you're trying to do (give me 1/2 moves, or take away my TMM).  You can't do both.  If you Demoralize first, I have my move to deal with achieving long range or losing LOS to ignore your SPA (or at the very least I have the foreknowledge that I need to get into cover to make up for lost TMM).  If you Demoralize last, it hurts more, but you had to save that unit rather than something else for last in initiative... not to mention all my units avoided the 1/2 move penalty.  I'd potentially rather see your Demoralizer go "Boo!" and run off with my TMMs than see a hard hitting flanker get the last word.

Honestly, I'd mainly take Demoralizer for a passive area denial threat... you can blunt an entire flank attack with a single Demoralizer's move being held in reserve.

[Xochi]

If the consensus is that it doesn't need adjust, then I can abide by that despite my personal views on the SPA.

The fields we play on are much smaller due to the fact that anytime your on a 4x6 board, rounds tend to last forever and the first two rounds you usually don't even make contact cause your just playing a maneuvering game. It very well may just be the nature of our closer engagements that makes this SPA so much more powerful.

[nckestrel]

If the consensus is that it doesn't need adjust, then I can abide by that despite my personal views on the SPA.

The number of people not commenting is almost always larger than the number of people commenting.  Never assume everyone based on what is said in a thread.

[Weirdo]

The fields we play on are much smaller due to the fact that anytime your on a 4x6 board, rounds tend to last forever and the first two rounds you usually don't even make contact cause your just playing a maneuvering game. It very well may just be the nature of our closer engagements that makes this SPA so much more powerful.

This would not surprise me. Games that are designed for a given map size often don't quite work as well when played on much smaller or larger areas. You may need to house rule to compensate.

[Son of Kerenski]

Maybe just try playing without either of them and see if that makes a difference?

We pretty much do that now and games come down to manuevering and tactics rather than these kinds of methods.

[DarkJaguar]

Maybe just try playing without either of them and see if that makes a difference?

We pretty much do that now and games come down to manuevering and tactics rather than these kinds of methods.

We try and avoid limiting people as much as possible.  Stiffles creativity and such.  Rather, if something is out of whack, we attempt to rebalance it rather than ban it.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

When it comes to putting Demoralizer on a fast unit in a small playing area, I fear your choices are Stifle, Ban, or Rebalance via house rules.