Author Topic: Tag & homing artillery  (Read 7768 times)

Descronan

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Tag & homing artillery
« on: 03 January 2019, 00:04:04 »
Question came up this weekend that we found interesting. The rules do not specify any limitations to TAG.

An aerospace fighter was coming in for a dive bomb over a Schiltron with ARTAIS2 and TAG. Is there any reason why TAG cannot be used against aerospace fighters?

Are there any units that cannot be hit by TAG and Arrow IV?

I recall a rule back in the day (might have been a house rule), that said you couldn't target infantry or battle armor with TAG/Arrow.

Thanks in advance!

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #1 on: 03 January 2019, 00:18:05 »
You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.
« Last Edit: 03 January 2019, 00:20:24 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #2 on: 03 January 2019, 17:15:06 »
You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.

All Arrow IV are homing rounds unless alternate ammunition is used.
Quote from: AS pg. 75 Homing Rounds


Artillery-fired homing rounds (including Arrow IV homing missiles and Copperhead artillery munitions) are specifically designed to damage a single target unit, rather than delivering area-effect damage. Unless alternate munitions rules are in effect (see pp. 76-82), only the Arrow IV artillery systems may fire homing rounds.


TAG can be used in many ways, including laser targeting the ground for Laser Guided Bombs. I do not think their is any rule against Tagging other than it has to be tagged the round that the impact will happen. So if you TAG an Aerospace, the missile needs to be within 34" of the unit for same round impact to work. So I think that's within... 24" of the flight line?

I use TAG all the time to murder Infantry to close to my units, to avoid splash damage.
« Last Edit: 03 January 2019, 17:19:17 by Xochi »

Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #3 on: 03 January 2019, 17:21:51 »
You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

Also keep in mind that there are no homing rounds in standard artillery rules.  If you're using homing rounds young have to be using the optional artillery rules.

No restrictions as long as it follows this:

Quote from: AS Pg. 109 TAG
TAG is used to designate targets for homing artillery attacks. A unit with this ability may designate targets in the Short and Medium range brackets (see Artillery, p. 73).

DarkJaguar

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #4 on: 03 January 2019, 18:21:22 »
You can TAG an aerospace unit overcoming the central zone, but homing rounds still won't hit it.  (It's on the radar map, not the playing area)

While I certainly agree with your logic, I cannot find any evidence in the rules to support this statement actually being the case.  An aerospace unit is considered to be <6" away from any other point within 2" of the flight line, and 14-∞" away from any point more than 2" from the flight line as far as  the game mechanics are concerned.  The only restriction on targets for homing artillery seems to be that they be within 34" of the chosen aiming point, and thus, any flight line that passes within 22" of the chosen impact zone would seem to be a perfectly viable target.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #5 on: 03 January 2019, 18:42:10 »
With regards to there not being any homing rounds in Standard rules artillery:

Citation #1:
There are no homing rounds in standard rules artillery.
TAG, in standard rules artillery, gives a -2 to-hit modifier to indirect arrow IV attacks instead.

Citation #2:
Errata establishes a Standard rules version of Artillery.  Alternate ammo is never called out as being allowed by the Standard rules Artillery.  (can't quote the absence of a rule..)

Citation #2a

OTOH, alternate ammo is located within the optional rules section of the Alpha Strike rulebook (Alternate Munitions, pg 76.  Optional rules begin on pg 62)
« Last Edit: 03 January 2019, 19:01:45 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #6 on: 03 January 2019, 19:07:12 »
With regards to not being able to attack units on the radar map with artillery:

Air Defense Arrow and Air to Air Arrow rules allow attacks into the radar map. Homing rounds never grant the ability. Homing rounds may be fired from the radar map onto the ground map, but not vice versa.

With regards to Homing Arrows (assuming you're using optional rules)

You can't declare a POI on the radar map.
You CAN probably TAG an overflying unit if within range of the flight path, but again the aero unit is not on the ground map.  It's on the radar map, and therefore can never satisfy the conditions necessary for homing rounds to get a roll to-hit: TAG'd, and within 34" of the homing round's POI.
« Last Edit: 03 January 2019, 19:29:23 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Scotty

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #7 on: 03 January 2019, 23:28:36 »
The fighter is treated as being along its entire flight path simultaneously for the purposes of other shooting; it stands to reason that a POI within 22" of a flightpath would be within 34" of a fighter following the rules for adding +12" to the range if the attacker is not on the flight path.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #8 on: 03 January 2019, 23:48:06 »
Scotty, you got a citation?  It's rude to say I just flaty don't believe you... but I don't believe you. I'm not trying to pick a fight as normally if you say something I take it as just about gospel... you're rarely wrong.  But on this one, I really don't think you have it right.

For example: by that logic, you can hit Aero units with non-homing Artillery if the POI is on top of the flight path.


In scouring the Ground-to-air fire rules again, I see a couple passages:

Quote from: AS, pg 60: Resolving Ground to Air combat
Ground to-
Air fire is resolved using the standard weapon attack rules in
standard Alpha Strike, but with the following modifications.

First of all, no optional rules appear to be valid in ground to air fire.  Standard rules only, and with further exceptions as listed later in that section.  That rules out Homing rounds, which are optional rules. 

But even if that's not the case, there's the problem of extending range to flight path to include measuring from POIs to flight path.

The entirety of the "determining range" section is as follows:
Quote
Determine Range
To determine the range between a non-aerospace unit to an
airborne aerospace unit, measure from the edge of the attacker’s
base to the nearest point along the airborne aerospace unit’s
flight path that also lies within the attacker’s forward arc, then add
12 inches to that distance.
If the attacking unit is standing within 2 inches of the aerospace
unit’s flight path, disregard the above measurement rules and
treat the range to the target as Short.

Nothing about measuring POIs to flight path; only units to flight path.

The most recent errata doc doesn't alter any of these quotes.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2019, 00:21:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Scotty

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #9 on: 04 January 2019, 00:22:29 »
POIs for normal artillery rounds reach "up" the same amount of distance as their radius; that means they may have an effective range of 0" to the aerospace unit as far as determining range is concerned, but an AOE can't hit anything on the flight path, because it's at a higher altitude.  After all, the range to a VTOL (for example) is unaffected by its elevation, that just happens to have nothing at all to do with where the explosion goes off.  That part is easy.

Moreover, "it stands to reason" means exactly what I used it to mean: it makes sense.  You're lasing a target.  In Total Warfare (oh, how I hate using Total Warfare to justify rules, but here it makes sense), Homing rounds are fired at mapsheets, and I'm fairly sure (but curiously can't find it explained explicitly in the text, for reasons I'm sure have to do with how much of an edge case this is) that a fighter that crossed through that mapsheet is a valid target.

And much more importantly: it doesn't break anything, in the slightest.  The chance to hit with one against a TAG'd target is exactly the same as an ADA AIV, but requires the TAG in the first place, and can't reach out to the Inner Ring like an ADA AIV.  There's not equipment encroachment, and it is arguably a less effective use of an Arrow IV launcher than just bringing ADA AIV in the first place.

The exact text of the book probably needs a minor errata, because I'm sure you won't be the only one to bring up RAW (which isn't a knock on you at all), but the actual issue resolves itself pretty clearly when viewed in the lens of "yeah that seems right".

(If anything, "A POI isn't a unit and therefore Homing Artillery's POI can never be close enough to a fighter to work because the rules for checking distance to a flightpath use the word 'unit' only" fails the 'does it make sense?' criteria pretty hard.  Technical writing is hard enough already.)
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #10 on: 04 January 2019, 00:28:17 »
POIs for normal artillery rounds reach "up" the same amount of distance as their radius; that means they may have an effective range of 0" to the aerospace unit as far as determining range is concerned, but an AOE can't hit anything on the flight path, because it's at a higher altitude.  After all, the range to a VTOL (for example) is unaffected by its elevation, that just happens to have nothing at all to do with where the explosion goes off.  That part is easy.

Kind of an aside... I'm pretty sure this was asked and answered previously, but I couldn't find it in drafting my previous post.  Do you recall if the "up" of the AOE is spherical or cylindrical? That is, if something is 2" above the poi and right on the edge of the template, is it hit or not?  It's totally not realistic to be cylindrical, but it's so much less math than figuring the AOE is spherical.

Quote
Moreover, "it stands to reason" means exactly what I used it to mean: it makes sense.

Common sense is so funny because people can't agree on it :)  As a point of contrast, to me "it stands to reason" that the fighter isn't at every point along the flight path for the entire duration of an Alpha Strike turn (which is unofficially 3 CBT turns) but that it's presumed ground units can time their fire to take advantage of the shortest range to the flight path.  That doesn't carry over very well to artillery which doesn't have that degree of control over when exactly it arrives.



Quote
In Total Warfare..

I wasn't gonna go there.  But it's interesting you did, because I was under the impression that hitting an (airborne!) ASF with a homing round was impossible in CBT/Boardgame BattleTech.  Now I'm curious if it is or isn't.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2019, 00:31:03 by Tai Dai Cultist »

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #11 on: 04 January 2019, 00:39:14 »
Punted the question to nckestrel.

DarkJaguar

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #12 on: 04 January 2019, 02:20:28 »
The exact text of the book probably needs a minor errata, because I'm sure you won't be the only one to bring up RAW (which isn't a knock on you at all), but the actual issue resolves itself pretty clearly when viewed in the lens of "yeah that seems right".

I feel attacked  ;). But the way I see it, RAW may not explicitly allow it, but RAI seems pretty open to the idea in my opinion, so I would second the need for an errata clarification.

Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #13 on: 04 January 2019, 16:08:32 »
I forgot that they actually made Artillery standard rules, since all we ever use is advanced/optional. But a -2 modifier is strange, since normally a spotter with tag gives a -1 if they have TAG/LTAG and are within 24"/6" to both Arrow IV and cannons (not the ART-SC.. but ART-LT, ART-S etc...). Wonder why they decided to only give it to Arrow IV for standard ruling.

To point to Scotty's Area of effect with hieght, its referenced in the AS-Eratta: Area of Effect (AoE) Damage: Some weapons and effects are described as Area of Effect (AoE), which can affect all units within a given area centered on a point of impact (POI). If a unit is at a different elevation than the POI, the difference in elevation is added to the distance from impact. Thus, a tank on a hill at the edge of a 2” (diameter) AoE template and1” above the POI is treated as if it lies 1” outside the 2” AoE template, but would still be within a 6” AoE template.

EDIT: Standard rules apply a -1, not a -2. ③ Indirect Fire: Artillery can be fired indirectly (see Indirect Fire, p. 35). When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to-hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).
« Last Edit: 04 January 2019, 16:15:09 by Xochi »

nckestrel

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #14 on: 04 January 2019, 16:14:41 »
the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.
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Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #15 on: 04 January 2019, 16:25:31 »
the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.

I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #16 on: 04 January 2019, 16:26:23 »
To point to Scotty's Area of effect with hieght, its referenced in the AS-Eratta: Area of Effect (AoE) Damage: Some weapons and effects are described as Area of Effect (AoE), which can affect all units within a given area centered on a point of impact (POI). If a unit is at a different elevation than the POI, the difference in elevation is added to the distance from impact. Thus, a tank on a hill at the edge of a 2” (diameter) AoE template and1” above the POI is treated as if it lies 1” outside the 2” AoE template, but would still be within a 6” AoE template.

Heh, so neither spherical nor cylindrical, but conical AOE in 3-D.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #17 on: 04 January 2019, 16:28:46 »
I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

Weird it is then.
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Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #18 on: 04 January 2019, 16:31:20 »
Weird it is then.

I am looking everywhere in the errata for that -2. Where is it? Did the errata get updated when I wasn't looking after v2.4PRE

DarkJaguar

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #19 on: 04 January 2019, 16:54:14 »
I am trying to find that in the errata and I can only find Indirect Fire modifiers for Standard rules. It would seem a bit weird if the abstraction was only for indirect fire, since you can fire homing missiles under direct fire or indirect, since it relies on the TAG and then rolling a 4 or higher.

the modifiers for homing/copperhead rounds are relatively irrelevant anyway, since they wouldn't even apply to the fixed "4 to-hit" needed to strike a successfully tagged unit, and would only matter if you fired a round that drifted it's POI further than 34" from any successfully tagged unit.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #20 on: 04 January 2019, 17:03:07 »
the -2 for TAG and Arrow IV is abstracting TAG and homing.

Where is this modifier listed? I can't seem to find any -2 modifier for artillery at all

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #21 on: 04 January 2019, 17:10:35 »
Where is this modifier listed? I can't seem to find any -2 modifier for artillery at all

Here.  Tho it looks like it hasn't yet been added to errata doc.

Xochi

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #22 on: 04 January 2019, 17:16:13 »
Here.  Tho it looks like it hasn't yet been added to errata doc.

That would be why. Unless its in the official releases, I don't even look at that stuff lol.

nckestrel

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #23 on: 04 January 2019, 17:36:40 »
It was changed to a -1 when the RCN bonus was dropped. It’s been there since it was first posted.
“When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to- hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).”
Homing rounds for all artillery.  There’s no pending errata to artillery.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #24 on: 04 January 2019, 18:01:54 »
It was changed to a -1 when the RCN bonus was dropped. It’s been there since it was first posted.
“When fired indirectly, apply an additional –1 to- hit modifier if the spotter has the TAG or LTAG special ability and is within 24” of the target (6” for LTAG).”
Homing rounds for all artillery.  There’s no pending errata to artillery.

So it's only -1, not -2?

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #25 on: 04 January 2019, 18:12:07 »
It's also of importance to note that in Standard rules the TAG doesn't roll to hit, it automatically works if in range.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #26 on: 04 January 2019, 19:12:13 »
It's also of importance to note that in Standard rules the TAG doesn't roll to hit, it automatically works if in range.

That's always the case for artillery spotters regardless of advanced or standard though.  You only require a spotter with TAG be in range.  Or do you actually have to hit with the TAG to get the bonus in advanced rules?

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #27 on: 04 January 2019, 19:23:34 »
That's always the case for artillery spotters regardless of advanced or standard though.  You only require a spotter with TAG be in range.  Or do you actually have to hit with the TAG to get the bonus in advanced rules?

Quote from: Alpha Strike Homing Rounds, pg 75
On the turn the homing missile is calculated to arrive at its
destination, one target unit within 34” of the homing round’s
POI must be successfully “painted” by a unit with target
acquisition gear (TAG or LTAG specials). To paint a target, the
TAG- or LTAG-equipped unit must make a special attack roll,
using all the appropriate rules for a standard weapon attack
within the unit’s TAG equipment range.

If you don't hit with TAG, you don't even get your 4+ 2d6 test to see if the Homing missile hits.  (again, contrasted by the Standard version of Artillery rules where TAG works as described upthread)
« Last Edit: 04 January 2019, 19:26:33 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Descronan

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #28 on: 04 January 2019, 23:51:53 »
Man, I can't wait till we have the Commander's Edition! Juggling errata is getting crazy.

Ok, so this is how I interpreted the situation. The flight path crossed directly in front of the Schiltron placing the Stuka in short range from the Schiltron. We were using TAG and homing rounds as described in the RAW including Errata 2.4. No errata exists for homing rounds and they are standard for ARTAIS.

Homing rounds only need to declare a POI for the purposes of distance from the target. So the Schiltron declared the POI as 2" in front of its self. It has Short Range to the Stuka for TAG and the POI is clearly within 34" of the tagged fighter.

Nothing explicitly states that standard homing rounds cannot attack airborne aerospace on the battlefield. And nothing explicitly states that aerospace units are separate from the battlefield along their flight path.

I would highly recommend clarifying that before you hit print on the Commander's Edition. Remember, many new players are coming in specifically because of Alpha Strike and have no knowledge of TW rules.  The RAW really needs to be stand-alone.

So anyway, our group of 4 experienced players ruled that the homing missiles hit their target due to the successful TAG. This appears to have been wrong. I'll reread the rules and keep an eye on this thread.

Thanks!

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #29 on: 05 January 2019, 04:22:00 »
If you don't hit with TAG, you don't even get your 4+ 2d6 test to see if the Homing missile hits.  (again, contrasted by the Standard version of Artillery rules where TAG works as described upthread)

That's not the question I asked.  I was referring to you saying that in standard rules, TAG automatically hits.  That's true of the spotter bonus in standard, and to my understanding advanced artillery.  My question was more along the lines of "What are you implying by saying TAG auto hits in Standard", which isn't true to the best of my reading ability by the way.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #30 on: 05 January 2019, 07:31:09 »
There is no attack roll for TAG in standard.

Tai Dai is saying that’s analogous to it auto hitting with the TAG.
You could just as well say the artillery auto hits and you’re just rolling for the TAG.

Both are analogies. The reality is, in standard rules, TAG + artillery doesn’t work like it does in advanced and making analogies to that way are not really how it works.

In standard, TAG makes spotting for artillery more effective.
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Descronan

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #31 on: 05 January 2019, 20:48:41 »
Is the TAG ability losing its "special attack"? I don't see any mention of that in the errata.

This is creating a rules paradox where the TAG ability says one thing while Standard Artillery rules say another. And will this affect Semi-Guided LRMs? Whatever the ruling, ideally, it should be consistent for both.

I realize that Advanced artillery is different, but I don't see anything in the errata referencing deleting the Advanced Artillery rules. And since you've said that homing rounds are Advanced Artillery only, then how does that affect the situation presented?

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #32 on: 05 January 2019, 22:29:22 »
There is no conflict.  There are the following scenarios:

1) You are using the rules for Standard Artillery.  In this case, if your spotter for an artillery attack has TAG, reduce the target number by 1 if the target is within range to use the TAG.  There is no attack roll required.  If you have a unit that is not spotting for an attack, it can use TAG as normal.  The spotting unit may use their TAG to make a special attack to designate another target that turn, but doing so will make the artillery attack worse to the same level as not having TAG in the first place.  Since that's both a) strictly worse than just using another unit to spot and using the TAG spotter to shoot something else and b) doesn't actually change any net numbers to the attack, there's no point in prohibiting it by the rules.

2) You are using the rules for Advanced Artillery (the original rules published in the book prior to errata).  In this case, in which case TAG does nothing on its own, but may be used with Homing Arrow IV.

That's it.  It's less complicated than people are trying to make it.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #33 on: 05 January 2019, 23:00:28 »
There is no entry or rules for TAG in standard except the standard rules artillery saying the TAG special can give the -1 when spotting for artillery. There is no specialized TAG attack in standard rules to errata away. There are no hiking rooked in standard. There’re is no semi-guided LRMs in standard.
If you want to use advanced rules artillery or advanced rules alternate munitions for semi-guided LRMs, then you also use the advanced rules TAG attack. 
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #34 on: 05 January 2019, 23:39:03 »
Well, strictly speaking you can be using Semi-Guided LRMs and standard rules Artillery, in which case you get my scenario 1. ;)
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #35 on: 06 January 2019, 15:36:43 »
Speaking of spotters. I don't understand this section of artillery advanced rules for spotting for an artillery attack.

AS. Pg 74:
"Artillery spotting automatically occurs as long as the friendly spotting unit has a valid line of sight to the artillery attack’s chosen POI, and requires no roll."

When does spotting ever require a roll? It always automatic when anyone declares they are spotting for an IF attack. Does this mean that you don't need to designate a spotter? Just have some one with LoS nearby? Do they still pay the IF penalty to shoot even if they are passively spotting? Does the artillery piece pay a +1 cause the auto spotter fired?

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #36 on: 06 January 2019, 15:50:34 »
You're thinking way too hard about it.  Using the phrase "Artillery spotting" does not mean it's substantially different from normal IF spotting.  All exceptions are included in the relevant text, don't try to apply it to different sections of the book.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #37 on: 06 January 2019, 15:52:35 »
Saying "requires no roll" is just a clarification on the earlier statement that spotting "automatically occurs".  There's no need to wrestle with why the grammatically unnecessary clause was added on to the end of the sentence ... the 'why's is simple clarity through redundancy.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #38 on: 06 January 2019, 16:13:10 »
There is no conflict.  There are the following scenarios:

1) You are using the rules for Standard Artillery.  In this case, if your spotter for an artillery attack has TAG, reduce the target number by 1 if the target is within range to use the TAG.  There is no attack roll required.  If you have a unit that is not spotting for an attack, it can use TAG as normal.  The spotting unit may use their TAG to make a special attack to designate another target that turn, but doing so will make the artillery attack worse to the same level as not having TAG in the first place.  Since that's both a) strictly worse than just using another unit to spot and using the TAG spotter to shoot something else and b) doesn't actually change any net numbers to the attack, there's no point in prohibiting it by the rules.

2) You are using the rules for Advanced Artillery (the original rules published in the book prior to errata).  In this case, in which case TAG does nothing on its own, but may be used with Homing Arrow IV.

That's it.  It's less complicated than people are trying to make it.

With respect, unless the Standard Artillery rules are the same for Advanced Artillery, this is going to cause confusion. Inconsistent rules are always a problem. Without knowledge of how Advanced Artillery is going to differ from Standard, I can't really comment beyond that. If alternate ammo is the only change and introducing homing rounds, then yes, this should be fairly simple.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #39 on: 06 January 2019, 16:17:24 »
Also on the table for advanced, you get a -1 for spotting, and -2 for having PRB etc. so it sit a total of -3 or is it an either or situation? Only RCN says don't use this if PRB is used.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #40 on: 06 January 2019, 17:15:45 »
-3.
-1 is for just a spotter.
-2 if spotter has RCN (-1 for spotter, -1 for spotter has RCN)
-3 if spotter has LPRB, PRB or BH (-1 for spotter, -2 for spotter having PRB)
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #41 on: 06 January 2019, 18:12:47 »
With respect, unless the Standard Artillery rules are the same for Advanced Artillery, this is going to cause confusion. Inconsistent rules are always a problem. Without knowledge of how Advanced Artillery is going to differ from Standard, I can't really comment beyond that. If alternate ammo is the only change and introducing homing rounds, then yes, this should be fairly simple.

The rules are different; they are not inconsistent.  If you're confused by the differences in rules you haven't read, you should first read them before suggesting that the confusion is the rules' fault.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #42 on: 06 January 2019, 18:44:23 »
If rules must be consistent, then it’s advanced artillery that should go. The entire point of standard rules artillery is to be more consistent with other standard rules attacks.
It does indirect fire just like LRM indirect fire. It does direct fire just like standard weapon attacks. It adds what was deemed essential to artillery, area of effect (and with it the ability to target a hex).
Advanced artillery is a whole different animal. It throws out the entire to-hit table for its own modifiers. It adds flight times and off board. And to some players those are essential (and this why standard didn’t just remove the advanced option all together).
You get to choose what you want to be consistent with. You want consistent with other standards rules, use standard rules artillery. You want consistency with how artillery has worked with total warfare, use advanced rules.
The confusion is people trying to mix advanced rules artillery and standard. Ingrained bias is one reason (assumptions based on how things were), the poor presentation is another (errata often assumed to replace, hard to tell from errata document it’s separste from existing advanced artillery).
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #43 on: 06 January 2019, 18:48:30 »
Once Commander's Edition come out it'll be much easier to keep everything straight.  There was an early flood of errata (esp since 1st printing) but in the last year or two things have been well hammered out.  Commander's Edition won't involve the same degree of cross referencing your rulebook with errata.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #44 on: 15 January 2019, 09:03:46 »
Once Commander's Edition come out it'll be much easier to keep everything straight.  There was an early flood of errata (esp since 1st printing) but in the last year or two things have been well hammered out.  Commander's Edition won't involve the same degree of cross referencing your rulebook with errata.

That's my hope. Thanks for your efforts.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #45 on: 15 January 2019, 09:24:05 »
The rules are different; they are not inconsistent.  If you're confused by the differences in rules you haven't read, you should first read them before suggesting that the confusion is the rules' fault.

I was referencing "new" advanced artillery rules in the upcoming Commander's Edition. So yeah, can't read a book that hasn't been released yet. No need to be snotty, Scotty. 

As it is, the advanced artillery in the Core Rules is inconsistent from the "standard" artillery in the errata. Unless the advanced rules are reformed to be consistent with the new standard artillery, this will cause confusion.

So the question is - Are the current advanced artillery rules are being removed or revised to be consistent with standard? If not, then this will cause confusion.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #46 on: 15 January 2019, 10:29:14 »
I was referencing "new" advanced artillery rules in the upcoming Commander's Edition. So yeah, can't read a book that hasn't been released yet. No need to be snotty, Scotty. 

As it is, the advanced artillery in the Core Rules is inconsistent from the "standard" artillery in the errata. Unless the advanced rules are reformed to be consistent with the new standard artillery, this will cause confusion.

So the question is - Are the current advanced artillery rules are being removed or revised to be consistent with standard? If not, then this will cause confusion.

I reread the thread to see if I missed something, but found no mention of "new" rules until this post.  I think you may have gotten confused somewhere.

If you want to use artillery with standard rules, use the Standard Artillery found in the errata document.

If you want artillery to be more like it is in Total Warfare, use the artillery rules printed in the book,  which are the advanced artillery rules.

There is no overlap.  They two different ways to use the same thing based on player preference.

They are not inconsistent, they are merely different.
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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #47 on: 15 January 2019, 10:53:11 »
I reread the thread to see if I missed something, but found no mention of "new" rules until this post.  I think you may have gotten confused somewhere.

If you want to use artillery with standard rules, use the Standard Artillery found in the errata document.

If you want artillery to be more like it is in Total Warfare, use the artillery rules printed in the book,  which are the advanced artillery rules.

There is no overlap.  They two different ways to use the same thing based on player preference.

They are not inconsistent, they are merely different.

Dude... I originated this thread. I'm sorry you didn't read my intent despite numerous references to the errata and new rules and even referencing that they "fix it" before sending the Commander's Edition to print. Perhaps the fault is on the reader?

If you think having two very different tables for calculating the To-Hit is "consistent" I disagree. Having two "different" rules with very different outcomes is "inconsistent" and will cause problems. I'm recommending we have one core table that is IDENTICAL between both standard and advanced. Advanced artillery should be reserved for alternate ammo, off-board, and other "advanced" and optional rules. When two players get together for a game, there should be no question about how they calculated the To-Hit number.

That's my opinion. Take it or leave it.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #48 on: 15 January 2019, 10:59:42 »
It's not an issue of anyone saying you're wrong and the two systems are consistent.

It's more of an issue of disagreeing that consistency is necessary.  The rules for artillery can be looked at in a binary way: either you're using the standard rules for artillery and you're ignoring everything on artillery in the advanced rules, or you're using the advanced rules for artillery and you're ignoring everything in the standard rules for artillery.

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #49 on: 15 January 2019, 11:15:35 »
It's not an issue of anyone saying you're wrong and the two systems are consistent.

It's more of an issue of disagreeing that consistency is necessary.  The rules for artillery can be looked at in a binary way: either you're using the standard rules for artillery and you're ignoring everything on artillery in the advanced rules, or you're using the advanced rules for artillery and you're ignoring everything in the standard rules for artillery.

So, you're saying they're not consistent - which was my question and concern. As I said, this will cause problems. I've hosted enough tournaments where players learned different versions of the errata and that completely screwed up their expectations/strategies. Having two different base rules/tables between standard and advanced will continue this trend. And that's a problem. I've seen too many players get frustrated and threaten to stop playing games because of rules conflicts. This invites more conflict IMO.

Thanks guys! I'm looking forward to getting the Commander's Edition to clean up this errata mess. My hope is that my concerns are alleviated once I have the book in hand.

 :thumbsup:

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Re: Tag & homing artillery
« Reply #50 on: 15 January 2019, 11:20:34 »
I'll absolutely agree that if you're going to host a competitive game/tournament you should absolutely be specifying which optional rules you are using, to include which version of the artillery rules will be in play. 

Aside from clarifying which artillery rules the event will be using: it's my opinion that saying "all optional rules are legal" for a competitive game is a terrible, terrible idea.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2019, 11:22:11 by Tai Dai Cultist »