The *literally* Never-Seen

[Wrangler]

Curious, would Clan Stone Lion produce those or have a variant or two of those?
'Just wondering, as I don't have the PDF...
(If one of you wants to PM the answer...)

Those won't exist until Technical Readout: Golden Century comes out, the Turning Point has it as a t. Notice in the pdf, which is hopeful the book will eventually come out.

Unfortunately there isn't art for them, soo technically their unseen.

[Cache]

Curious, would Clan Stone Lion produce those or have a variant or two of those?

Those went extinct long before Clan Stone Lion was created during/after the Wars of Reaving.

[Wrangler]

Those went extinct long before Clan Stone Lion was created during/after the Wars of Reaving.

We don't exactly if those Mechs/vehicles/aerospace etc aren't dead or not.  They could have been put into Brian Caches.  Also they were out of game, designed after Wars of Reaving were made.

It be nice to see someone right a story or two in the Clan Home worlds in the aftermath of the mess.  Just stuff immediately after it since authors who wrote it are gone.

[Cache]

We don't exactly if those Mechs/vehicles/aerospace etc aren't dead or not.  They could have been put into Brian Caches.  Also they were out of game, designed after Wars of Reaving were made.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the MUL is a canon source. If the MUL says they're extinct, until something new is written, those designs are extinct. All the fan guesswork and what-if's in the world do not change canon. Should a player choose to do something different with their own game, there is nothing stopping them. But that also does not change canon.

[Empyrus]

It should be noted that MUL is ever evolving.
The Dragoon was thought extinct in the sourcebook it was introduced and listed so in MUL but ComStar found one anyway. The Shogun is extinct but was put back into production according to 3150NTNU, and its availability in MUL hasn't been updated yet (partially probably because the RS for new variants aren't available).

Of course we don't really know for sure until TRO Golden Century is released and the designs are added to MUL properly.

[Wrangler]

I can confirm that MUL not updated, Turing Points: Tokasha has number new units they included in there either has very little info such as the Fox BattleMech and Minsk, and unites that have been listed yet such as the Kokou Defense Tank, Issedone Light OmniFighter, which clearly have record sheets printed. 

[Cache]

It should be noted that MUL is ever evolving.
The Dragoon was thought extinct in the sourcebook it was introduced and listed so in MUL but ComStar found one anyway. The Shogun is extinct but was put back into production according to 3150NTNU, and its availability in MUL hasn't been updated yet (partially probably because the RS for new variants aren't available).

Of course we don't really know for sure until TRO Golden Century is released and the designs are added to MUL properly.

Yeah, I pretty much said that...

If the MUL says they're extinct, until something new is written, those designs are extinct. All the fan guesswork and what-if's in the world do not change canon. Should a player choose to do something different with their own game, there is nothing stopping them. But that also does not change canon.

Point being, current canon points to them being extinct, period. Fan speculation about future canon is not canon. Players can do what they wish with their own games, nobody is saying they can't, but that still does not change canon.

We're also talking about a Homeworld Clan, and, in my opinion, are quite unlikely to get any solid information on them any time soon. TRO: Golden Century may flesh out the designs in that era, but what do you think the odds are of any information stretching into the current era? If anything, there may be hooks and loopholes for writers to use in the future, but that still won't be "current" information until it is actually written.

I can confirm that MUL not updated, Turing Points: Tokasha has number new units they included in there either has very little info such as the Fox BattleMech and Minsk, and unites that have been listed yet such as the Kokou Defense Tank, Issedone Light OmniFighter, which clearly have record sheets printed. 

So, we're discussing the Fox (Clan Diamond Shark design), Minsk (Clan Ghost Bear design), and Corvis Omni (unknown origin). What information about them contained in TP: Tokasha will be added to the MUL and state anything about post-Reaving production? I wager nothing.

[truetanker]

You know, not to start another dead flame war and get this thread locked...

They said the Mackie was dead, gone... but an example was shown in canon, of all things, the clans had one made ready for a Trial.

If one has a Recordsheet, then one has an example of said unit. Even if it's just a one off, like Gausszilla. I can clearly state one exists, but that is my table... not yours. And Cache is kinda correct, unless a TPTB makes or enforces a ruling into fact, its still unknown hearsay... bt it's your table!

In other words...I'm wanting a complete factual listing, I'm going to have to create my own.

TT

[Sartris]

the ruling into fact is the MUL - if you think there's an error report it.

I'm wanting a complete factual listing, I'm going to have to create my own.

i look forward to seeing it when you finish in the late 2030s

[truetanker]

HA! :thumbsup:

TT

[beachhead1985]

You know, not to start another dead flame war and get this thread locked...

Please, no.

Thrilled that this thread draws so much interest, however.

My 0.02...which rounds down to nothing now that we got rid of the penny...is that as with the Woodsman; the ideal of the Labour Caste is to produce just enough to meet the Clan's needs and be all used up in action; then recycled, if possible. Do the Clans keep making/contributing to their caches later on? I never heard that before, but cool if so!

However...Logically; unless the data is lost...what stops someone from making new ones if they fit the need?

Isn't that how we got the retrotech mechs during the Jihad? Everything up to Mackies rolling off ersatz production lines from old specs that someone got, somehow.

[dgorsman]

The Clans aren't big on history in general, but technical specs for Mechs?  I can see technicians and/or merchant members keeping good archives for those.

[beachhead1985]

You'd figure they'd have to right? To prevent a tech collapse?

[Colt Ward]

My 0.02...which rounds down to nothing now that we got rid of the penny...is that as with the Woodsman; the ideal of the Labour Caste is to produce just enough to meet the Clan's needs and be all used up in action; then recycled, if possible. Do the Clans keep making/contributing to their caches later on? I never heard that before, but cool if so!

Well . . . we know large/powerful Clans will stock their own caches . . . we have two bits of fluff that indicate this . . . the Highlander IIC and Hellfire/Lupus.  Both are interesting examples . . . I want to say it was the Wolves who pulled old SLDF Highlanders out of their caches to rebuild them to Clan spec as IICs- even while some poorer Clans might still have been using the -732 (this was before the Royals).  Something happened to make the Wolf Clan need to bolster their secondline forces- or maybe not, came out 4 years after the Omni was introduced- which prompted them to pull Star League Highlanders out of caches to refit with Clan weapons.  IMO a production slowdown as they retooled to Omnis?  Working out the kinks of producing the Woodsman?  Whatever, but it means at some point the Wolves, and other big Clans (Jags, Falcons, Adders, Coyotes, Bears), decided to put Highlanders into storage likely b/c they had enough new production using Clan weapons like Warhammer IIC, Wakazashi (JF), Supernova, Marauder IIC, etc that using Star League designs was considered a disadvantage.  So while producing new Clan tech mechs, they retired Star League era mechs.

The Lupus was also relegated to secondline forces or put into caches among at least the Adders, even though it was a Omni.  The Lupus caused the Coyotes to retire Archers & Bombardiers (maybe into a cache?  maybe eventually used for the Dragoons?) though it was later surpassed by more advanced Omni designs that saw it phased out even among its creators.  How many were in use among the secondline forces of the Clans is open to question, but a significant enough portion were in caches among the Adders that it was used as a testbed for combat deployment of heavy lasers.  It was enough that they refit over 100 Lupus from caches or serving in secondline forces- to me it makes more sense to refit from caches to issue than pull in Lupus still actually serving until the end.

So yeah, big Clans were able to store excess mechs . . . and did not feel the need to use them instead to expand their touman numbers- likely a factor of how many warriors the sibkos turned out to refresh the touman.

[Wrangler]

We may find out when TRO: Golden Century comes out. It will update anything on Mech's you've mentioned.

I'm curious on designs we've not seen at all.  I know there something there we've missed, just got dig deep enough.

[beachhead1985]

it was the Wolves who pulled old SLDF Highlanders out of their caches to rebuild them to Clan spec as IICs

The Lupus was also relegated to secondline forces or put into caches among at least the Adders, even though it was a Omni.

So, we do know for sure that the Clans *do* restock and make new caches at need. That is cool.

And the Highlander-thing was when I knew you could do anything in BT and make it work through FASAnomics, which is something I kinda love, even with the "HUH?!" aspect of it.

[Colt Ward]

Certain Clans . . . The five I mentioned I see having caches along with the SharkFoxes- on their part its more of a 'for sale' lot rather than real storage.

I would not expect the Cobras, Horses, Spirits, Scorpions, Mandrills or Ravens to have caches with mechs though the Ravens had naval caches that might have included ASF and Small Craft.  Burrocks, Ice Hellions, Steel Vipers, Nova Cats, and others its up for grabs about their having caches.

[SCC]

I'm pretty sure that all the Clans still possess Caches, at least did until the WoR, it's just that for some of them all the equipment dates back to the SL.

[Colt Ward]

Horses were mech-poor after the Bears took Tokasha which is what led them to embrace vehicles even more.

Spirits traded warships for Raven secondline/SL mechs, so either they had some stockpiled or they decommissioned ground forces to increase their warship count.  Considering the fluff on the Clint IIC (sold after Revival to Invaders) I think you could make a case either way, though IMO the Spirits should have lots of Clints lol.  The Spirits were not able to refit the Clusters damaged when they challenged the Adders during the Burrock Absorption, instead decommissioning the incomplete clusters b/c of their adherence to the rigid unit structures.

Cobras have reserve lists for ASF pilots at least, and that is their premier branch- they may do it for more than ASF, and if they had spare mechs its hard to imagine they would not trade them for more fighters.

Scorpions field at least Star League designs in their secondline units let alone their garrison.  I think some frontline units have a chance for them (avoiding Always Faithful as a resource, it had problems with Scorpion mech use) . . . and if they have Star League designs in frontline or secondline units, hard to see them retiring any.

Mandrills?  I would say the Mandrills b/c of the infighting among the Kindraa let alone fending off other Clans tend to churn through their mech inventories ahead of other Clans.  They built a Omni with the help of allies (Crimson Langur) and in a rare move the Kindraa cooperated to build a standard mech (Predator) for all of them to use.  A Kindraa started producing the Mandrill mech again after decades, as part of a unity drive.

Now I expect they would have caches of parts, maybe some retired SL armor, maybe some BA suits but I would not think very many intact mechs like the 100 or so Lupus the Adders put up.

[Luciora]

Just imagine all the useless stuff that you know will be there too.  Crates of Thermal insulating boot small right, mislabeled as ammo anyone?

[Colt Ward]

I think the Pentagon worlds would have the 'biggest' caches even if they are empty.  We get to see a bit of one with the Wolverines story and the Scorpion's Temple IIRC . . . but since they were built to the same sort of design as Star League Castle Brians then we should expect them to be buried deep.

And then you have to wonder if there was something like the New Dallas core set up in any of them . . .

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just imagine all the useless stuff that you know will be there too.  Crates of Thermal insulating boot small right, mislabeled as ammo anyone?

Water chips, GECKs, Self-sealing stembolts, portable structures with a hole in the fourth wall...

[truetanker]

Cans of creamed corn where  it clearly states corned beef.

TT

[Daryk]

That's... just evil, even for you TT...  ::)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Cans of creamed corn where  it clearly states corned beef deviled ham.

TT

Let's make sure we do that right.

[truetanker]

That's... just evil, even for you TT...  ::)

Hey, I've been busy lately...

Evil just comes as a second nature to me...

TT

[beachhead1985]

Cans of creamed corn where  it clearly states corned beef.

TT

You aren't supposed to eat that, you know? Creamed corn just exists as a warning to the other corn of what happens to kernels who step out of line. Something like what happened to the Order of Cincinnatus in canon.

[Colt Ward]

You aren't supposed to eat that, you know? Creamed corn just exists as a warning to the other corn of what happens to kernels who step out of line. Something like what happened to the Order of Cincinnatus in canon.

 . . . you know its a Down Periscope joke?

[Empyrus]

Ah, found something that hasn't been seen: The Awesome AWS-11H. But this depends on whether it exists: the XTRO Marik says "...rumored AWS-11H with three heavy PPCs".

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'd call it close enough to count.