Author Topic: Orion or Zues  (Read 6740 times)

mrbooth

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Orion or Zues
« on: 08 April 2018, 18:58:35 »
Playing a campaign setting starting in intro tech but upgrading as we go. I have mini for both mechs but am trying to decide the Orion in better in intro tech but I prefer the Zues in latter upgrades.

What one has worked better for everyone.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #1 on: 08 April 2018, 20:05:55 »
Are you limited to canon equipment loadouts for the upgrades or will be able to use whatever you want?

mrbooth

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #2 on: 08 April 2018, 20:11:59 »
Trying to stay non custom at the start.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #3 on: 08 April 2018, 20:13:59 »
While the Orion has superior armor and more ammo for its weapons, it also only has 10 single heat sinks in the 3025 models...while adequate or most of its weapons, one or two engine hits cripple it for battle purposes...

The standard Zeus, OTOH, has 17 heat sinks, which is more than enough to fire all of its forward weapons with only movement heat, or gives it a surplus if you leave off either the LRM's or the forward medium laser...The PPC model is not quite as well off with only 19 heat sinks to try and deal with heat from a PPC, large laser, LRM-15 and a pair of medium lasers, but it does hit harder when they are all fired...however, with only 11.5 tons of armor, if slightly more internals, it cannot stand quite as punishment as the Orion...

As to upgrades, once you go to DHS's, things really change, and you can start making some interesting mods...however, unless you go to XL engines (or switch internals to endo-steel), the Orion would not have as much room for changes, unlike the Zeus, which would have an extra 7 tons if you just switch to 10 DHS's, which would also improve its heat dissipation rates...more than enough to increase armor, and play with some extra firepower and/or DHS's...

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #4 on: 08 April 2018, 20:21:35 »
The Orion requires a little more finesse on the heat curve... the five tons of ammo make it prone to explode when exposed to too much enemy fire. The Zeus encourages a more self-preserving range bracket for engaging.

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Empyrus

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #5 on: 08 April 2018, 20:39:59 »
I'd recommend the Zeus. Easier to use, and has some good upgrades (if sticking to canon variants), overall better than what the Orion got IMO.

This recommendation comes from one specific game. I lost an Orion to overheating and an ammo explosion, and my friend's Zeus dominated the match my sitting on a hill and firing anything it saw.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #6 on: 08 April 2018, 20:46:12 »
I'd recommend the Zeus. Easier to use, and has some good upgrades (if sticking to canon variants), overall better than what the Orion got IMO.

This recommendation comes from one specific game. I lost an Orion to overheating and an ammo explosion, and my friend's Zeus dominated the match my sitting on a hill and firing anything it saw.

One game is enough to know the stock 3025 orion is a deathtrap   :))

The Zeus 9S2 is a nice machine... maybe my favorite upgrade and it's available in 3052.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #7 on: 08 April 2018, 20:48:41 »
I'm just still salty over that one game lol

To be honest, i'm not a big fan of the Orion either way.
Maybe i should try the ON1-VA variant, it has much better cooling, max armor and reasonable close range firepower.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #8 on: 08 April 2018, 20:55:57 »
OP, what's the rest of your lance look like? Do the other players have an idea what they're playing?

CrossfirePilot

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #9 on: 08 April 2018, 22:22:13 »
Go with the Zeus.  I think there is also an optional rule where the right fist does 10pts of damage.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #10 on: 08 April 2018, 22:33:10 »
OP, what's the rest of your lance look like? Do the other players have an idea what they're playing?

Excellent Question.   I'm asking it as well.

Also, OP what Faction are you playing?

Obviously the Zeus will be more common in the LC (FC), while the Orion is only produced in the FWL in 3025, but was once SL General


For the Zeus, I would say take the AC model, and then when you get access to upgrades, look into a Field Refit level to the original SL Era 5T w/ the ERPPC.
Its basically the same as the 9S but with more ammo, standard lasers & better armor.  It lacks CASE but is in turn a D-Grade so its doable in a bay v/s a Factory.
The L1 PPC model is a bit of a trap, its got less ammo & a bigger punch but when you have to start rotating your weapons fire instead of alpha striking then it sort of balances out the firepower.  The access to special ammo is also nice depending on the rules level & era.


For the Orion, ugh, it looks pretty on paper but the Heat Curve & Ammo make for a bad time if you actually try to BRAWL with the thing which is really what you want to do.
The SRM model is a better brawler & better heat curve but lacks the LRMs for doing anything at range, but, depending on what the rest of your unit looks like it might be a solid option.
For long term upgrades, your going to need a full Factory for all of them but the 2M is NASTY while the 1M is better against Airborne targets & supporting the unit w/ NARC.
So while I strongly favor the 2M, there are reasons to go 1M if it supports the TO&E better.
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mrbooth

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #11 on: 09 April 2018, 04:08:09 »
OP, what's the rest of your lance look like? Do the other players have an idea what they're playing?

Awesome, Marauder and Victor.

I mainly play as merc with ties to Davion and Marik.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #12 on: 09 April 2018, 06:19:26 »
Thematically I'd take the Orion, with that setup.  Tactically, AWS and MAD give you some intense long range fire with five PPCs; make the Orion the utility infielder backing up them at close range, or helping keep the Victor from being pestered.  I've always had a weird like for the ON1-V model, but the baseline is still a decent bracketeer.  Just remember, pick one target at long or short range, and don't unload a full-up alpha.
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Luciora

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #13 on: 09 April 2018, 08:15:14 »
Zeus. It has a blazer version.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #14 on: 09 April 2018, 10:08:14 »
With the Zeus T, I find that using the LRMs and PPC on approach will soften up the enemy and empty out that ammo bin for getting up close and personal. There you can use the PPC and LL pretty much with impunity, but if you do a lot of running you can always drop on for the medium laser to cool down before things get messy.
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snewsom2997

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #15 on: 09 April 2018, 11:18:47 »
I have a preference for the Zeus especially the PPC armed Variant, simply because of the Heat Sinks. In Introtech Games Orions are just walking bombs.

Dayton3

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #16 on: 09 April 2018, 14:05:29 »
I like the Zeus.    Cooler name. 

Okay,  that's all I got.

garhkal

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #17 on: 09 April 2018, 15:42:39 »
Awesome, Marauder and Victor.

I mainly play as merc with ties to Davion and Marik.

Either works well with those 3, but to keep the PPC love, i'd say take the Zeus.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #18 on: 09 April 2018, 15:49:04 »
It's annoying to me, that the fluff in the Revised TRO 3050 made it look
like Davions don't much like the Zeus.  I've always been fond of it, I
used it frequently during the 3050s and it stood up well to Clan mechs.

I'd recommend it to anyone without hesitation.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #19 on: 09 April 2018, 18:22:30 »
Odd man out, but the Orion is one of my favorite 'mechs. Always served me well. However, I recognize the benefits of the Zeus.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #20 on: 09 April 2018, 18:28:36 »
I'm going to swing in for the Orion here.  I like them a lot and find them to be a lot of fun for role playing games because when you're only driving one machine I like to be more of a jack of all trades.

It's also relatively simple to improve the ON1-K without resorting to elaborate refits.  My preferred upgrade is to replace the AC with an LBX and use the weight to fit CASE.  You can also free up a ton and a half by switching to Ferro Fibrous if you think your supply lines will wear it and obviously mounting DHS will have a transformative effect on your heat curve.

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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #21 on: 09 April 2018, 20:44:11 »
The Orion always had too much ammo without CASE for my liking.  Give me the Zeus with PPC over the Orion.  Though I do like mixes of SRM4 and LRM15.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #22 on: 10 April 2018, 06:28:06 »
 :-X
« Last Edit: 11 May 2018, 05:48:45 by Major Headcase »

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #23 on: 10 April 2018, 08:53:44 »
All Orion for me, but that's pure faction bias.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #24 on: 10 April 2018, 10:21:38 »
I'm leaning toward Orion myself, the lance already a pair of snipers and the Victor probably doesn't want to babysit 3 just in case something gets close and the Orion offers more flexibility with a better close range package than the Zeus.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #25 on: 10 April 2018, 17:19:49 »
with four players, I'm more interested in self-preservation. a zeus is probably the lowest priority target of that lance.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #26 on: 10 April 2018, 18:40:32 »
I also vote Zeus.
While it's only a little heavier, it has more available tonnage for upgrades and customization.
Also cooler name.
Also also, the Orion looks like butt, the Zeus looks very cool! You wanna drive cool? Or butt?... 😉

yeah the rule of cool...I vote for it every time.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #27 on: 10 April 2018, 22:20:36 »
Well, as a Steiner fan obviously I'm going to be biased toward the Zeus, but even without that, I've always had the Zeus perform well for me every time I've taken it out.  The Orion, meanwhile, has always failed hard.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #28 on: 10 April 2018, 22:28:01 »
Awesome, Marauder and Victor.

I mainly play as merc with ties to Davion and Marik.


Follow Up Question?

What models are those?


At this point I'm still thinking Zeus w/ AC to keep you running cool & giving access to alternate ammo.
That lance already has 5 PPCs in it & the PPC model starts to have heat issues in L1 tech.

You have the ability to provide LRM fire but also use the LL at 10ish hexes for medium range triple bombardment.

The Victor is all the close in brawler that lance needs really so I'd stay away from the SRM Orion that I mentioned before.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #29 on: 11 April 2018, 09:55:21 »
I've never really cared for the base model Zeus, it just didn't seem to do enough for the tonnage.

The venerable "Oink" (ON-1K) has served me well in several campaigns.  Granted, there's always the risk of an ammo explosion, but it's well padded by other systems.  In game after game, they've been able to deliver concentrated 10 point AC hits and a volley of LRMs at range for me, then switch from LRM to SRM and ML spam to exploit the damage inflicted on the way in.  It's clearly a "bracket fire" design, and you can't afford the heat buildup from firing the LRMs and MLs/SRMs together, especially since you're going to want to use the AC at any range, any time you get decent odds for a shot.

The armor has usually managed to withstand whatever the opposition threw at it, with the occasional loss of an arm or torso side.  I did have one blow itself sky-high from an ammo explosion, but the same happened to a Zeus on one of the rare occasions where I used one (I normally don't play as Lyrans).  You do have to take reasonable care with the heat curve, however, because 10 single heat sinks is kind of pathetic for something of that tonnage, and rolling for ammo explosions isn't a good idea.

The rest of your group's lance already has sufficient stand-off capability, and the Victor isn't enough to provide a front line by itself without getting bypassed and/or back-shot.  Putting the ON and VTR next to each other a coupe of hexes in front of the MAD and AWS (which have minimum range issues) seems like a winning combination to me.  That makes a total of up to 5 PPCs and an AC/10 dealing nasty 10 point hits, an LRM-15 rack and AC/5 piling on a few extra 5 point damage groups, a 20-point doomsday weapon to make closing with your ranged firepower seem like a bad idea, and a 4-rack of SRMs and several MLs, along with the AC/10, to provide additional close-in firepower if they try it anyway.  Frankly, the standard ON is a better in-fighter than the standard ZEU, and roughly comparable at range, although some ZEU variants seem to be fairly effective.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #30 on: 11 April 2018, 10:09:32 »
The Zeus is an overgrown heavy. As for it the Orion being a better infighter, sure. But the Zeus hangs back, it is a sniper (as much as 3025 'Mechs can be). Park it on a hill with forest and it is really painful to deal with. Once it runs out of ammo, it can approach and use its lasers without worries.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #31 on: 11 April 2018, 10:28:20 »
Yeah, though with an Awesome and Marauder I'd say he's got the long-range fire support already handled.  Another point in the Orion's favor is that it can share SRM ammo with the Victor, so if you happened to be playing with any rules for reloads that can help.  Same with spare parts/replacements...but more than that, it means you've got two SRM platforms for smoke, infernos, fragmentation, or any other silly ideas you can find.  And while the Victor has that big AC/20, the Orion's arguably a bit better in the anti-vehicle role since it has the extra clusters - they both share two lasers and four SRMs, but the Orion's got the LRM and AC to back it up while the Victor only has the can-opener. 
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2018, 12:03:15 »
I've always liked the Orion - it's a decent unit at any range, and well-protected. Runs a touch hot, but not grossly so(particularly by 3025 standards). The additional 3.5 tons of armor over the Zeus makes it far more survivable, even with the extra ammo slots, and their firepower is similar.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #33 on: 11 April 2018, 12:13:54 »
For two cents... I'm a huge Orion fan in almost every iteration (not you, ON-1M). If you're looking to upgrade to each Mech's 3050 standard though... yeah, no.

The Zeus went from beast to... well, more-beast in '50, improving in some subtle but useful ways while not taking on a lot of the negatives other designs sometimes were saddled with. The old PPC vs. AC-5 question got answered with a big boost to the PPC's range, the ER large is a great backup to it, the pulse lasers lose range but gain accuracy (nice against fast Clanners), there's just nowhere that this design didn't get better. A bit warm, yes, but not to the point that it's impossible to deal with. There's no downsides or negatives here to speak of.

And the poster child for those negatives is the Orion, which was made into a mess of a design. I'm a firm believer an XL engine is a worthwhile upgrade if it really helps your design do something useful it couldn't have done before. Well... the Orion gained that useful LBX gun, so that's good, and the extra LRM tubes aren't unwelcome, but then... what, a Narc beacon? Seriously, THAT'S the tonnage use? Ugh.

Now, if you're going beyond that, the Zeus has some later handy versions, but Marik wisely tried again on the Orion with the 2M, and... yeah, this is what the Orion wanted to be all along. Gauss and LRM are a good start, three pulse lasers in close are a good backup (I prefer six standard mediums, personally, on the tonnage), tough as all hell, etc.? Yes please. And what do you know? There's nowhere this isn't better than the 1M, and while we're at it there's no unusual tech- you could build this in 3050 just as easily as '60.

So... intro tech, it's a punt, both are great designs. If you're upgrading to 3050 variants, the Zeus is a clear winner. And if you're willing to go straight to a 3060 variant in '50, the Orion is a great choice.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #34 on: 11 April 2018, 12:41:47 »
The ZEU-9S is one of the best upgrades in 3050.  Every single thing about it improved and unlike so many other mech upgrades from the same time, there's no part of it that you look at and say "what the hell were you thinking?"  All the upgrades it received were useful, and that's something to be proud of.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #35 on: 11 April 2018, 15:03:59 »
The ZEU-9S is one of the best upgrades in 3050.  Every single thing about it improved and unlike so many other mech upgrades from the same time, there's no part of it that you look at and say "what the hell were you thinking?"  All the upgrades it received were useful, and that's something to be proud of.

Bingo. Many were gaining something at the expense of something else (weapons at the expense of durability, usually, like the Shadow Hawk), or an 'upgrade' that neutered the Mech's effectiveness (Grasshopper, Goliath), something that was trading off one thing of some value for something else of similar value (Whitworth), or just totally nonsensical ideas that likely were made out of engineers not really understanding the equipment (Trebuchet, Panther, Orion, Trebuchet again because I'm THAT OFFENDED BY IT)...

...and occasionally there's just a design that gained new and enhanced abilities with none of the bad news. There aren't a lot of them, and most of them are on the smaller end of things, but the Zeus is a big-time exception to the rule there. It's easy to make a better Wasp, Locust, Clint, etc.- but an assault Mech (okay, a big heavy, shaddup) that just beefed up for no cost in effectiveness? Glorious. If the Clans hadn't shown up when they did this would have given DCMS and FWLM units fits.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #36 on: 11 April 2018, 16:17:27 »
Has to be the Zeus, probably not as effective in 3025 but as time goes by it eclipses the Orion.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #37 on: 18 April 2018, 15:36:16 »
 In 3025, the lack of LRM 15 ammo can be disconcerting for the Zeus.

 The Orion is simply a solid mech. You can hate its large magazines of ammo, but it does perform.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #38 on: 20 April 2018, 03:51:49 »
So after taking the advice on the Zues I went with that for my first game out. It was working very well with the lance right up until it a PPC  in its face ended this particular debate. We did salvage the machine but now need a new pilot and some spare cash for fix it.


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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #39 on: 20 April 2018, 05:41:50 »
Funnily enough, I was using a Zeus 9S in a game on Wednesday evening.  That was also killed by a PPC to the face (admittedly it had already been tagged on the head by a cluster of LRMs).

It was an odd game, all four of my mechs took at least one hit to the head and I lost both the Zeus and an Axman to headshots - despite neither of us packing any headchoppers.

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #40 on: 20 April 2018, 09:38:32 »
Funnily enough, the last time I used a Zeus it killed a Thor via PPC to the face.
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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #41 on: 20 April 2018, 21:33:35 »
Well, this is what I get for being gone . . .

My question now that its lancemates were determined would have been . . . when you can upgrade, will it be piecemeal or conversion kits?

Because I have always considered it a shame the ON-1K never got a upgrade that just gave it DHS, CASE and turned the AC/10 to a LB-10X and the MLs maybe go ERML.  IMO it was the logical step up instead of the ON2 series mess.  Since I just love that clustergun.  And I would have said go with the ON-1VA so you can crit seek all those holes your buddies up front made with their PPCs and AC/20.

But yeah, the 9S Zeus is solid if uninspiring jump into L2.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #42 on: 04 May 2018, 01:35:20 »
So after taking the advice on the Zues I went with that for my first game out. It was working very well with the lance right up until it a PPC  in its face ended this particular debate. We did salvage the machine but now need a new pilot and some spare cash for fix it.

LOL,  well at least you know that no matter which mech you choose, a PPC to the face is the great equalizer.

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Major Headcase

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #43 on: 04 May 2018, 02:37:44 »
 :-X
« Last Edit: 11 May 2018, 05:49:23 by Major Headcase »

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Orion or Zues
« Reply #44 on: 04 May 2018, 10:27:04 »
🤣🤣🤣
Ouch... Bob, git the hose...
But you can't blame the Zeus for that! 😂 it would have died just as fast as an Orion in the same case. Hire a new pilot who has mastered the "duck and weave" maneuver. 😉

A fair point. Sucks, but even the most terrifying Mechs like a Daishi would drop from that same hit. Few Mechs walk away from a PPC to the noodle. Maybe something like a Great Turtle with hardened armor, or a Gyrfalcon with its reflective armor, but you're getting into cutting-edge tech at that point.
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